Gen 6 Battle Spot Doubles Viability Rankings

Approved by cant say

Before anything and everything else: This is not my original work. This post will be copy + pasted from lucariojr 's original post HERE with a few minor edits. These rankings are fairly current, right up to the end of the identical VGC15 metagame and should serve as a great starting ground. Big thanks to the VGC forum mods and community :P

S-Rank

Reserved for the top threats in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are able to perform multiple roles to tremendous effect, whilst having few to no flaws. Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent. Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support.
Landorus-T
Kangaskhan-Mega

A-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that function very well within the current Battle Spot Doubles metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are either able to perform multiple roles to great effect, or execute one extremely well. Support Pokemon in this tier can create free turns, but not as easily as those in the S Rank. The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier may have are usually mitigated by their positive traits, or with minimal team support.
A+ Rank

Amoonguss
Aegislash
Charizard-Mega-Y
Cresselia
Gardevoir-Mega
Heatran
Salamence-Mega
Thundurus-Incarnate

A Rank

Clefable
Clefairy
Gengar-Mega
Milotic
Rotom-W
Sylveon
Tyranitar
Zapdos

A- Rank

Azumarill
Arcanine
Bisharp
Entei
Gengar
Hydreigon
Politoed
Rotom-Heat
Scrafty
Suicune

B-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that fit well in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame, but they have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to the fullest extent. The Pokemon in this tier are either predictable, require some team support to work to it's full potential, or are at disadvantageous match-ups against some common threats. The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier have are mostly mitigated by their positive traits.
B+ Rank

Breloom
Conkeldurr
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Jellicent
Ludicolo
Mawile-Mega
Porygon-2
Talonflame
Terrakion
Togekiss
Venusaur-Mega

B Rank

Camerupt-Mega
Garchomp
Gothitelle
Haryiyama
Metagross-Mega
Swampert
Thundurus-Therian
Virizion
Volcarona
Whimsicott

B- Rank

Abomasnow-Mega
Blaziken
Crobat
Gastrodon
Gyarados
Landorus-Incarnate
Mamoswine
Sableye
Smeargle
Swampert-Mega
Weavile

C-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that can work okay within the Battle Spot Doubles metagame. However, they either have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance or require much team support to work on most teams. Pokemon that have a few niches in the metagame but are mainly outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon also belong here.
C+ Rank

Abomasnow
Aerodactyl
Greninja
Gyarados-Mega
Infernape
Kingdra
Latios
Machamp
Raichu
Rhyperior
Scizor
Tornadus-Incarnate
Tyranitar-Mega

C Rank

Altaria-Mega
Aromatisse
Blaziken-Mega
Chandelure
Dragalge
Hitmontop
Lapras
Lopunny-Mega
Manectric-Mega
Meowstic-Male
Mienshao
Raikou
Staraptor
Scizor-Mega

C- Rank

Blastoise-Mega
Charizard-Mega-X
Cradily
Escavalier
Garchomp-Mega
Dragonite
Gallade
Gardevoir
Gallade-Mega
Goodra
Gourgeist-Super
Heracross
Klefki
Latias
Liepard
Lucario-Mega
Lucario
Metagross
Nidoking
Ninetales
Reuniclus
Rhydon
Salamence
Slowbro
Slowking

D-Rank

Many niche Pokemon can be squeezed into VGC15 teams due to a certain move or ability (niche Wide Guard or Intimidate users, for example). Many Pokemon fit here, but none of them have a place in the metagame solid enough to have a special spot on the rankings.
Ampharos-Mega
Banette-Mega
Cloyster
Dusclops
Heracross-Mega
Jumpluff
Latias-Mega / Latios-Mega
Malamar
Medicham-Mega
Musharna
Noivern
Pidgeot-Mega
Pinsir-Mega
Rotom-C
Rotom-F
Sableye-Mega
Sceptile-Mega
Slowbro-Mega
Steelix-Mega

I'm not going into the abyss of E-Rank / Unranked. If it's not here, I missed something obvious or it isn't worth ranking.
 
Last edited:
Hello again! Is Hydreigon not used much? The strat dex says for Aegislash to run 156 SpD to survive Modest Hydreigon's Dark Pulse, but if that's not worth preparing for, I'd like to put more in Defense.
 

cant say

twitch.tv/jakecantsay
is a member of the Site Staffis a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Battle Stadium Head
Um... Hydreigon is ranked A- here, was the 24th in usage in season 12 (s13 stats haven't been retrieved yet). So yeah it's used.

Then again, you don't need to rip all your builds from the strategy dex. If your team can handle Hydreigon efficiently without your Aegislash needing to tank a Dark Pulse then don't worry about the specific EV spread...
 
Yup, that proves it-I need glasses. Normally I'd double check to make sure I didn't miss it... and I'm pretty sure I did, but next time I ought triple check. Moving 4 EVs to Atk actually betters the likelihood of some KOs, and the 12 Def certainly doesn't hurt. That's why I wanted to go 140 SpD instead of 156. And I so don't just rip off the strat dex for everything...have you seen my teams? lol. But yeah, sorry for being dumb.
 

Pigeons

pidge pidge
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
AG Circuit Champion
Nomination time. Yay.

Thundurus A+ -> S
Thundurus really should've been S-Rank a long time ago imo. Firstly, it's incredibly easy to fit on teams and provides huge utility in just one team slot. It's one of the more flexible Pokemon in the metagame, Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Taunt/Thunder Wave with Sitrus Berry is the standard set but a Life Orb set can be extremely effective, Safety Goggles is also a viable option. Thundurus's item isn't just flexible, it can run a huge variety of moves on any set, noteworthy options include Rain Dance, Grass Knot and Nasty Plot, all of which have seen a decent degree of success. Of course I also have to mention Swagger, the incredibly skillful move that when used in conjunction with Thunder Wave can completely shut opponents down. Thanks to Swagger, Thundurus is incredibly hard to check reliably and most of the Pokemon that would check it well are easy to work around. Overall, Thundurus fits on most teams in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame and provides immense utility while also being able to function as a potent offensive threat. It is these traits that lead me to the conclusion that Thundurus is one of the top Pokemon in BSD and should reside in S-Rank.
 
Nomination time. Yay.

Thundurus A+ -> S
Thundurus really should've been S-Rank a long time ago imo. Firstly, it's incredibly easy to fit on teams and provides huge utility in just one team slot. It's one of the more flexible Pokemon in the metagame, Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Taunt/Thunder Wave with Sitrus Berry is the standard set but a Life Orb set can be extremely effective, Safety Goggles is also a viable option. Thundurus's item isn't just flexible, it can run a huge variety of moves on any set, noteworthy options include Rain Dance, Grass Knot and Nasty Plot, all of which have seen a decent degree of success. Of course I also have to mention Swagger, the incredibly skillful move that when used in conjunction with Thunder Wave can completely shut opponents down. Thanks to Swagger, Thundurus is incredibly hard to check reliably and most of the Pokemon that would check it well are easy to work around. Overall, Thundurus fits on most teams in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame and provides immense utility while also being able to function as a potent offensive threat. It is these traits that lead me to the conclusion that Thundurus is one of the top Pokemon in BSD and should reside in S-Rank.
Not entirely sure. I ran a bread-and-butter Tbolt/Hp Ice/Taunt/twave set and all it really managed to do was paralyze 1-2 mons and go "well damn, I tried" if it tried to actually KO something. Taunt just gets me killed more than anything ._.
Been running a super secret move on my Thundy; several opponents have snapped their own neck in sheer horror the turn I use it, in ways Swagger simply doesn't accomplish.

Checking on the other hand... AV Landog gives no fucks, anything with a Lum Berry that isn't direly weak to Thunderbolt/HP Ice gives no fucks, Mamoswine gives negative fucks about it (Scarf Mamo outruns + Icicle Crashes, AV doesn't die to LO Grass Knot and again, Icicle Crashes or 2HKOs via Ice Shard), Swampert/Mega Swampert only care about the odd Grass Knot sets and Mega doesn't care at all unless Thundy has Tailwind support/rain cancled, Zapdos/Rotom-H are somewhat annoyed by Swagger but that's the pinnacle of Thundy's achievements, and then we have Lightningrod, which pretty much means "Bringing Thundy to the battle at all is a 3v4" straight from Team Preview.
Quick Guard. Every last reasonable Thundy set is either abusing, or utterly dependant on, Prankster; offensive Thundy can function against it, though. AV Conk: no fear of offensive Thundy. Loves T-Wave. Loves Swagger. Loves Thundy's S-Ranked best friends.

"Bulky" sets are the common route, but even with Sitrus it's not hard to 2HKO it and they don't hit hard if they aren't hitting SE. Offensive sets are just plain fucked if they get hit, but usually it leaves enough damage in it's wake to make up for it.

Splashability is gigantic, utility is... narrow, but annoying and useful with T-Wave haunting everything that isn't Ground, Electric, or Conkeldurr.
tbh all it has over Zapdos is *prankster* T-Wave, a sultry Speed tier, and... Grass Knot? But after fighting hundreds of giant flying dicks and having success with my own giant flying dick, Prankster Thunder Wave being such a useful catch-all check to anything not outright immune to it is pretty nasty. Thundy isn't the only mon that can do it, obviously, but the other Pranksters who can generally just get literally laughed at as other Thundy Taunt them.

tl;dr not oppossed to it, but it's not that hard to check and even outright counter and every team does have Rotom-H an answer to it.
 

Demantoid

APMS Founder
is a Tiering Contributor
I think weavile should go up. I mean, it's 8th in usage stats. I just don't know why -_-
Those came from the first like 24 hours at most and barely anyone played during that time. Another example is 24.3% of Gengar being LO Focus Blast which is just awful. That said Weavile is probably better than C+ rank.
 
I think weavile should go up. I mean, it's 8th in usage stats. I just don't know why -_-
Usage stats are going to be utter bullshit for a while. Would advise using last season's (most recent) stats for now.

Those came from the first like 24 hours at most and barely anyone played during that time. Another example is 24.3% of Gengar being LO Focus Blast which is just awful. That said Weavile is probably better than C+ rank.
As for viability, imo, Weavile is an absolute bitch to face and threatens a LOT of shit just with STAB coverage: Landorus-T, Thundurus, Gengar, Aegislash, Garchomp, Virizion, Cresselia, Salamence, Hydreigon, Amoonguss, Metagross... LO can nab a lot of KOs, Sash lets it almost always get two very painful attacks in or at least Knock Off two items. Crazy fast, decently strong Fake Out is pretty nice, Taunt is nice to have, and Ice Shard can pick off Scarf / +1 DD mence / Talonflame (most don't run Jolly + max Speed), Low Kick can nail Heatran, Terrakion, TTar, and weakened Khan, Icy Wind is trash damage but offers Speed support akin to Gengar... Weavile just does a lot more than you'd expect for something so frail with horrifyingly bad defensive Ice typing. Honestly, it can reasonably threaten almost anything that isn't Azumarill, Mawile, Hariyama, or Klefki. Fraility is the only thing holding it back imo. Weavile is FUCKED if it loses the Speed advantage, but taking amazing natural Speed, Icy Wind, and team support into account it's something I've personally had a lot of trouble facing, even with Azumarill. So no, no opposition to raising it at all. My only question:

B- or B? Mamo and Sableye are imo, around the same caliber, but calling it on par to the similarly anti-meta Virizion isn't too much of a stretch, imo.

Reserved for Pokemon that fit well in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame, but they have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to the fullest extent. The Pokemon in this tier are either predictable, require some team support to work to it's full potential, or are at disadvantageous match-ups against some common threats. The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier have are mostly mitigated by their positive traits.
Fit well? Yes. Notable flaws that inhibit full potential? Yep, that bulk and Ice typing. Predictable, kinda, you can narrow it down to about 6 moves at max, team support, absolutely, and disadvantageous matchups: Khan, Char-Y, bulky Mega Gardevoir, Clefairy/Clefable, Azumarill, Arcanine/Entei, Suicune, and Scrafty (just in S/A). But has a lot of pros for those cons. It suits a B rank.
 
Last edited:
Just what is Talonflame doing in B-? This thing was 3rd in usage on the previous 2 seasons and the VR hasn't been updated since Season 13. This Pokemon should be looked over in terms of current meta trends because I doubt that people are just throwing Talonflame randomly on their teams without any consideration; there must be something to justify its high usage.
 
B- is probably a little low for Talonflame given that's it's clearly more of an influence on the metagame than Pokemon such as Abomasnow and Garchomp who are sitting in B, but I certainly don't think it's as good as the usage stats would suggest. Firstly, its Attack stat is barely enough to make it viable. Without a Life Orb or Choice Band it puts on very little offensive pressure and even with those it's still very weak after Intimidate despite the high base power of Brave Bird and Flare Blitz. Its lack of bulk also means that it rarely survives more than a few turns, meaning it's hard for it to find a place on teams that aren't hyper offense. Pokemon such as Suicune who can easily setup Tailwind multiple times per game are generally superior in this respect. Finally, it struggles against a lot of the top threats. The only member of CHALK it can beat is Amoonguss, and even then, it's still only a 25% chance to OHKO. It has a really bad match-up against every other Pokemon on the team; Kangaskhan, Thundurus, and Landorus-T easily OHKO it and Heatran and Cresselia completely wall its attacks.
 
Just what is Talonflame doing in B-? This thing was 3rd in usage on the previous 2 seasons and the VR hasn't been updated since Season 13. This Pokemon should be looked over in terms of current meta trends because I doubt that people are just throwing Talonflame randomly on their teams without any consideration; there must be something to justify its high usage.
By the gods, it took four months but someone finally stirred the dust.
Talonflame has huge usage: #3 in S15 & 14, #11 in S13. This much, I don't dispute: online statistics and my own records both confirm big usage.

Talonflame has gone up, in no small part, because Gardevoir / Amoonguss / Sylveon / Ludicolo (along with Toed) have all generally gone up since S13, and Talonflame is a good non-Mega option to nail them. It's the best damn Tailwind user in the game; bar none. Even Whimsicott cannot Taunt it thanks to 126 base Speed and Gale Wings. Offensively, it's alright at swatting anything weak to its STABs, and Gale Wings basically guarentees it will accomplish something significant before going down on any given turn. It's a very reliable, offensive support mon, basically the best at what it does with minimal competition, and functions adequately in any Weather system and isn't entirely screwed against TR either. But, why is it that low?
1) Yes, we're a bit outdated: this is mostly CP'd from the VGC15 archive, and
2) A strong.... lack of activity in the Doubles neighborhood has killed discussion the last 4 months. I'm not going to randomly edit the OP and swap things around wherever I please with no community input. I'm a diehard Doubler, not a dictator. :P
3) While usage is significant to me, it doesn't ultimately decide viability. Rotom-H for example: not even in the top 50, but it's a hugely useful pokemon that's criminally underused. And has kicked my ass on more occassions than I care to mention.

That said, with the general increase of Talonflame's usefulness, I wouldn't be opposed to bumping Talonflame up to B or B+.
Talonflame is quite predictable (Fire STAB; usually Flare Blitz + Brave Bird + Tailwind + filler), absolutely requires the right support against a fair share of common mons (Landog paramount to all else, but Thundurus, Salamence, Politoed, Rocky Helmet Cress, Garchomp, Terrakion, Suicune, Milotic, Rotom-W, Zapdos, Arcanine, all give it issues and that's just top 30), and that's largely why I'm hesitant to stick it in A.
Even with that sizable mound of shit in its way, Brave Bird / Tailwind are just so fucking stupidly simple and effective that it is most players initial thought when they think "Tailwind user" for a team. Even if it only lives 1-3 turns tops, it gets a lot done in such a short amount of time.

CHALK matchup is big for anything, but maybe I'm the only person who sees less-than-expected usage of the archetype lately? Absolute cancer at Worlds '15, but BSD is a bit more versatile from what I've seen :P
 
Wow this is extremely dead considering this meta is still playable on both PS! and cartbridge.

As for the Tallonflame discussion i support a rise. Gale wings bless Tallonflame with a lot positive traits. Firtslty is the best Tailwind setter especilly for offensive teams, priority brave bird is extremely usefull on rain teams to nail Venusaur/Virizion and also countering it negating the rain speed boost on ludicolo. Adamant life orb can OHKO other non bulk invested Tallonflame and deal good damage to Charizard Y. Brave bird gale wings still have priority under trick room so Amoongus is not that treathering. Between Brave Bird and Overheat/Flare Blitz Tallonflame can deal with some annoying mons like Scraty, Mawile, Ferrothorn, Aegislash or Hitmontop. Lastly, support options like taunt, will o wisp and quick guard can't be overlooked, especially on the charti berry bulky set.

Sadly, Tallonflame struggles againts 4 of the CHALK members and bulky Thundurus, and all kind of bulky waters,Terrakion, Salamence, Tyranitar and Zapdos can deal easily with Talonflame. Also Zapdos/Suicune are better Tailwind setters for bulky offense.

Considering all positive/negative traits i think Tallonflame should be B+
 
Last edited:
Wow this is extremely dead considering this meta is still playable on both PS! and cartbridge.
Welcome to the Battle Spot forum, tho I dare say doubles sees especially low activity on here.

I wouldn't bother posting if there was a ton of discussion by good people, but with none of that i guesss even a relative noobs' opinion might be worth something. And I guess I have helped some people with doubles kinda, and I know stuff like how important redirection can be, Hleping Hand is not the be-all-end-all of everything, and Wide Guard and the reduced damage in general mean spread moves aren't always the best even tho rthat'd make sense.

Anyways, what I wanted to say was I think Abomasnow should go down quite a bit, maybe C rank or so. Idk about the mega-frankly I'd never use either(maybe over Aurorus for hail...but why hail anyways? And Aurorus is cooler cuz fossil.) Abomasnow just seems totally worthless to me generally. Even tho it sets weather which is more important here than singles, in doubles there is twice the chance the opponent has a mon out that can kill it easy...cuz it has a bajillion weakneses, fire especially.

So let's move on to match ups. First big red flag is Kang trashes Snow. Fake Out followed by Return, DE, or Low Kick, or just Low Kick itself which is a decent chance especially vs less bulky Snow. There's also the odd Fire Punch, easy for Kang to set up with PuP, etc.

Landog obviously doesn't really have the upper hand, but almost 60% run U-Turn so they can just hit hard and escape. Landog can eat an Ice Shard easy even without bulk, and Snow doesn't appreciate being Intimidated at all, since they are usually mixed. Snow can take Rock Slides sorta ok considering they're 2x SE, but flinches are ofc a problem outside tr.

Cress is also unbeatable for Snow bar the weird Toxic or Sheer Cold(it isn't really bulky,) and she's free to do anything from boosting with CM, fishing for SpD drops with Psychic, continuing to support her team unhindered(or less at least,) or even usung Toxic herself, depending on the set. Thund doesn't do too good, but Heatran and Talon absolutely destroy Snow. Amoonguss doesn't stick around long against Snow, but 252/4 can take a max SpA Snow's Blizzard that isn't item boosted and one hit of hail, and do something with Sludge Bomb, also taking out a weakened Snow and maybe poisoning. Salamence can pretty easily stomach an Ice Shard even without Intimidating first, and ofc ohkos Snow regardless of investment(well, with a fire move or physical "flying" STAB anyways.) Sylveon mostly does good, only kinda fearing Wood Hammer and still taking one comfortably from just about any Snow. Aegi, Zards, and Gengar are all common and do quite well against Snow, while TTar changes the werather and takes Giga Drains quite well.

Surprisingly Snow is #35 in usage(am I missing something and gonna embrass myself...? w/e i'm used to it,) but you can't just go off usage especially since the mega is ranked lower than normal despite 64% running the stone.
 

ethan06

⋖(☼┆☼)⋗
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
The main draw with Abomasnow is stupid powerful spread Blizzard under Trick Room. If you can merk genies, Amoonguss and Rotom-W in one slot on a Trick Room team then you're doing pretty okay. It competes with Camerupt as far as special spread on TR goes but brings a good matchup vs. Water-types and priority to the table. Abomasnow also has mad bulk, which means that with intelligent investment it can take a huge variety of neutral and super-effective hits comfortably. It should never, never be used outside of the Trick Room archetype, but it is amazing if TR is active and can still function even without it with smart play, so it saddens me to see you trash Abomasnow's viability without taking that into account :/
 
Obamasnow is offensively very unique; ethan explained it very well imo. Anything that isn't a Fire or Steel mon does not want to stomach TR Mega Obamasnow. Weak to almost everything, yes, but does bring neat Water / Ground / Grass / Electric resists and really gives no fuck about most status. Unmissing Blizzard and automatic sash breaking is disgusting. Main thing holding Abomasnow back is Heatran cancer and the absolute dependence on TR, not its typing. I'd definetely like to run a HailRoom team some day. I'm just a Char-Y addict.

However, I see no argument against a rise in Talonflame's rank; I sense a general consensus on B+ so I'm just gonna go ahead and edit that in.

Some things I'd like to see some comments and thoughts on:

- Bisharp. Who the fuck actually uses Bisharp anymore and has 1560+ rating? Should we just drop it to B~? Its usefulness seems to have gradually declined as the meta has developed; current ranking is an old C+P of mid VGC15. Speed is balls and Sucker Punch is a free switch, setup, redirect, or status waiting to happen. Iron Head is a nice secondary STAB if you need Dark coverage without compounding a Fairy weak team I guess.
- Weavile. Huge power buff to both STABs this generation, and excellent Speed lets it abuse great offensive STABs despite its horrible defenses. Super fast Fake Out, crushes double genie, and even Mega Salamence. Rise to B-, B?
- Arcanine. Very versatile, capable of running viable bulky Intimidate tanks with WoW/Snarl support and reliable recovery, along with CB Flare Blitz firebombs if that's more your taste. Generally good matchups against the top megas (Khan, Gardevoir, Mence, Char-Y, Mawile). A?
- Mega Metagross. Usage plummeted after huge initial ORAS hype, but imo its pretty good. Demolishes Gardevoir, Mence, double Genie, Amoonguss, and generally smashes into everything pretty hard. Lacks OHKO power when unboosted, but utterly horrifying with a good chipper like Volcarona. Pairs really nice with a lot of current B rank mons like Volc, Hydra, and Gyarados. Works pretty well non-mega as well, and takes on most of the same threats making it good on double-mega teams.
- Mega Charizard-Y. Heat Wave is fucking amazing, but the horrible matchup against Kangaskhan, Heatran, Lando-T, Thundurus, Garchomp, and Blaziken makes it difficult to build around. Down to A perhaps? Doesn't really compare to Mega Mence, Gardevoir, and Thundurus imo. Cannot function non-mega.
- Mega Venusaur. Down to C? It outright loses to every single top mega (Mence, Gardevoir, Char-Y, Khan...) along with Cress and Heatran, and really only beats full Rain and Sand teams lacking an adequate check. Which are rare and poorly built in general. Does work well in double-mega cores though, as non-mega is pretty ok and can work as a faster, more offensive Amoonguss. Very good late-game win condition, like Ferrothorn and CM Cresselia, but eats your Mega slot.
- Gyarados. Non-Mega, mostly. Bulky Rocky Helmet sets offer Icy Wind, Twave, and Intimidate while beating Landog and Heatran, while offensive non-mega sets hit reasonably hard while still offering some support. Typing is pretty good overall; matches up fairly against the majority of B- and higher. Mega offers really good STAB coverage and can flexibly work on double-mega teams, much like Metagross.
- Abomasnow. wtf is it doing in B while the superior-in-all-ways Mega festers in C-? Where should Mega Obama be, and should non-mega Obama be ranked?
 
Abomasnow. wtf is it doing in B while the superior-in-all-ways Mega festers in C-? Where should Mega Obama be said:
I guess I didn't properly consider tr...I guess that does give Obama some viability. But...it sounds like you're not opposed to non mega Obama moving down, possibly even taking it out of the rankings altogether. I was just saying take it down to C rank maybe....anyways, mega should definitely be higher than normal. With Snow Warning as the mega ability too, Obama can run Soundproof pre-mega for Hyper Voice users.
 
Last edited:
I think Mega Aboma should rise a bit because it's defitnely more vianble than other C- stuff. At least Trick Room give Mega Aboma a chance to threaten a lot of things with his powefull dual STAB, mainly Blizziard. Giga drain/Wood Hammer deal with rain archetypes considering Snow Warning and bulky waters in general like Mitolic, Rotom-W, Politoed and Suicune wich are the most common water types. Perfect accuracy Blizzard is the main reason to use Mega/Regular Abomasnow becasuse it destroy Thundurus and Landorus without giving a fuck on thunder wave or Intimidate, Amoongus, wich is the most annoyiing mon to deal under Trick Room take a lot from Blizzard and Mega Abomasnow speed ties under TR. Priority Ice Shard is also usefull to pick ko's on sash mons.

On the other hand, Mega Abomasnow doesn't totally justify the use of the Mega slot because regular Life Orb Abomasnow hit as hard as his mega form. The main adventage are the increased bulk and the speed reduction uppon mega evolving, but sometimes is better to free the mega slot for something like Mega-Mawile and especially Mega Camerupt, as Obama and M-Camerupt together destroy all Fire/Water/Grass cores together under Trick Room.

The main negative trait is that both Mega and regular Abomasnow need a lot of team support, because Steel and Fire types are imposssible to break through for Obama. Also is completely Trick Room reliant and struggles to a lot of mons that he is suposed to beat without it like Salamence, Landorus, Terrakion or Heat Wave Zapdos. A lot of A rank pokemon deal easilly with Abomasnow like Charizard Y, Arcanine, Heatran, Rotom-H, Gengar, Scarfty, Aegislash, Bisharp and on top of that low kick Kangaskhan. So he needs heavy team support to deal with all that stuff.

Both Mega and normal Abomasnow are powefull beast with unique offensive qualities that with tje right team support can be really threaterimg. Both forms have the same playstyle and nearly same power (factoring Life Orb on normal Abomasnow) and i think they should be ranked closer to each other, with Mega Abomasnow above regular for the incresed bulk.

Possibly B- will fit well for Mega Abomasnow as other B mons doesn't need so much team support (except mega Camerupt, but he deserve it for hiitting a lot of thing soo hard) and regular form maybe C+ , but i'm not enterely sure on that nomitaion as i feel keeping the same power and free the mega slot is something to take in consideration so B- is still an option imo.
 
Last edited:
Ah, a solid month of dust to scrape off.
I'll move the Obamas in a sec.

One thing I'd like to toss out into the field that I've gotten to play with for a bit is Cobalion. Brillant bastard got me to 1700 last season.

We currently have Terrakion in B+, Virizion in B. Both have advantageous secondary STABs in addition to STAB Close Combat, and check a pretty good swath of common pokemon. Terrakion's held back by Landog, Cresselia, and generally bad defensive typing balanced out by excellent stat distribution and STAB combo. Virizion is amazing against all formes of weather, checks bulky Waters along with Khan, and is a uniquely gifted Grass mon capable of eating Heatran for breakfast and generally not giving a fuck about Ice beams by virtue of its amazing Special bulk. CM is also pretty nice, and HP Ice makes it an awesome Landog counter (Resists Rock/Ground/Dark too). Held back by lackluster neutral damage and decent-but-not-great Defense, along with things like Gengar and Weavile smashing it. Very nice Khan + Amoonguss check btw.

Cobalion, nearly forgotten in the light of its awesome Musketeer partners, has a few perks beyond the second-best chestbeard in Pokemon history (Articuno takes the cake, sorry Freddie Mercury). Same solid 108 Speed and bland 90/90 offenses as Virizion, but flips defenses to grant it an awesome 91 HP / 129 Def to abuse killer typing. It does not care, at all, about Knock Off spam (even losing LO, since +1 Atk > LO) and can withstand even the most brutal of Earthquakes. Rock moves mean absolutely nothing: CB TTar's Stone Edge won't even break a sub.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 29-34 (17.3 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
PLus the big list of other shit it resists like bug, grass, steel, poison, etc.

Now, what in all of hell is the point of it? Mega Luke is faster, has damn near double the damage output on both offenses, and superior coverage.
Cobalion's specific niche is a direct counter to Kangaskhan (no, Low Kick does not OHKO), Mega Gardevoir, Heatran, and a significant pool of other things. I've personally been running it with Char-Y, as it ALWAYS needs a Khan killer and a second Gardevoir check never killed anyone. And if you look up a list of Steel types faster than Mega Gardevoir, you'll notice a VERY short list dominated by Megas. If you need Khan and Gardevoir covered without being utterly useless against Heatran, Cobalion is your freakish goat thing of choice. Random shit like HP Ice can 2HKO Landog / Mence, which you're tough enough to eat a hit from and will not hesitate to come into you. Standard set of Jolly max Atk/Speed with Iron Head / Protect / Stone Edge / CC is generally best though. LO / Expert Belt.
Non-Mega Lucario, well, has issues with being outsped and OHKO'd by Gardevoir and Khan, though it's still very adequate to kill Heatran and such.

Its also really obnoxious with Cress, they wall fucking everything that lacks Ghost STAB.
Anyway, I guess I'm advocating Cobalion for B-. Not as great as Virizion / Terrakion, but better than non-mega Abomasnow for sure. needs needs needs support against Talonflame, Entei, Arcanine, Rotom-H, Landog, Mence, Cress, etc.
Try it, it's pretty funny.
 
Last edited:

Mishimono

mish mish
is a Tiering Contributor
Ah, a solid month of dust to scrape off.
I'll move the Obamas in a sec.

One thing I'd like to toss out into the field that I've gotten to play with for a bit is Cobalion. Brillant bastard got me to 1700 last season.

We currently have Terrakion in B+, Virizion in B. Both have advantageous secondary STABs in addition to STAB Close Combat, and check a pretty good swath of common pokemon. Terrakion's held back by Landog, Cresselia, and generally bad defensive typing balanced out by excellent stat distribution and STAB combo. Virizion is amazing against all formes of weather, checks bulky Waters along with Khan, and is a uniquely gifted Grass mon capable of eating Heatran for breakfast and generally not giving a fuck about Ice beams by virtue of its amazing Special bulk. CM is also pretty nice, and HP Ice makes it an awesome Landog counter (Resists Rock/Ground/Dark too). Held back by lackluster neutral damage and decent-but-not-great Defense, along with things like Gengar and Weavile smashing it. Very nice Khan + Amoonguss check btw.

Cobalion, nearly forgotten in the light of its awesome Musketeer partners, has a few perks beyond the second-best chestbeard in Pokemon history (Articuno takes the cake, sorry Freddie Mercury). Same solid 108 Speed and bland 90/90 offenses as Virizion, but flips defenses to grant it an awesome 91 HP / 129 Def to abuse killer typing. It does not care, at all, about Knock Off spam (even losing LO, since +1 Atk > LO) and can withstand even the most brutal of Earthquakes. Rock moves mean absolutely nothing: CB TTar's Stone Edge won't even break a sub.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 29-34 (17.3 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
PLus the big list of other shit it resists like bug, grass, steel, poison, etc.

Now, what in all of hell is the point of it? Mega Luke is faster, has damn near double the damage output on both offenses, and superior coverage.
Cobalion's specific niche is a direct counter to Kangaskhan (no, Low Kick does not OHKO), Mega Gardevoir, Heatran, and a significant pool of other things. I've personally been running it with Char-Y, as it ALWAYS needs a Khan killer and a second Gardevoir check never killed anyone. And if you look up a list of Steel types faster than Mega Gardevoir, you'll notice a VERY short list dominated by Megas. If you need Khan and Gardevoir covered without being utterly useless against Heatran, Cobalion is your freakish goat thing of choice. Random shit like HP Ice can 2HKO Landog / Mence, which you're tough enough to eat a hit from and will not hesitate to come into you. Standard set of Jolly max Atk/Speed with Iron Head / Protect / Stone Edge / CC is generally best though. LO / Expert Belt.
Non-Mega Lucario, well, has issues with being outsped and OHKO'd by Gardevoir and Khan, though it's still very adequate to kill Heatran and such.

Its also really obnoxious with Cress, they wall fucking everything that lacks Ghost STAB.
Anyway, I guess I'm advocating Cobalion for B-. Not as great as Virizion / Terrakion, but better than non-mega Abomasnow for sure. needs needs needs support against Talonflame, Entei, Arcanine, Rotom-H, Landog, Mence, Cress, etc.
Try it, it's pretty funny.
I've started doing some more BSD laddering lately and Cobalion is defenitley something I'm going to have to try out.

I think overall the VR looks pretty good, but I think Thundurus-T is maybe a bit too high. I hardly ever see it being used and theres normally not much reason for me to use it over its Incarnate form which has a better speed tier and a better ability. I think some mons in B- such as Gastrodon, Blaziken and Gyarados are more commonly used and better.
 
I've started doing some more BSD laddering lately and Cobalion is defenitley something I'm going to have to try out.

I think overall the VR looks pretty good, but I think Thundurus-T is maybe a bit too high. I hardly ever see it being used and theres normally not much reason for me to use it over its Incarnate form which has a better speed tier and a better ability. I think some mons in B- such as Gastrodon, Blaziken and Gyarados are more commonly used and better.
Ability is debatable; one could argue that the only thing Incarnate has going for it is Prankster T-Wave and that alone alone is the single largest reason 95% of people pick it.
Therian Thundy still outruns the 100 crowd, and holy mother of fuck it hits hard. Runs Scarf, LO/Expert Belt, and Specs sets pretty well. And thanks to Volt Absorb, it has two very nice immunities and makes one of the best counters to the cmmon Electrics in BSD.
I haven't had the honor of using it myself yet, but fighting it is a bitch. Like yeah, no Prankster T-Wave to worry about, you just have to worry about geting your ass melted off from LO Thunderbolt instead. lol. B might be glorifying it, I can nudge it down, but its all-around about the level of Virizion, Gyarados, and such.

Ah, I think its been mentioned before, but what of Weavile? I've been seeing a lot of it on high ranked teams (1720+) and it's an excellent offensive supporter. B/B- might be more suiting. That thing has kicked my ass more than I care to admit. Didn't know it had Feint LOL.
 

Mishimono

mish mish
is a Tiering Contributor
Ability is debatable; one could argue that the only thing Incarnate has going for it is Prankster T-Wave and that alone alone is the single largest reason 95% of people pick it.
Therian Thundy still outruns the 100 crowd, and holy mother of fuck it hits hard. Runs Scarf, LO/Expert Belt, and Specs sets pretty well. And thanks to Volt Absorb, it has two very nice immunities and makes one of the best counters to the cmmon Electrics in BSD.
I haven't had the honor of using it myself yet, but fighting it is a bitch. Like yeah, no Prankster T-Wave to worry about, you just have to worry about geting your ass melted off from LO Thunderbolt instead. lol. B might be glorifying it, I can nudge it down, but its all-around about the level of Virizion, Gyarados, and such.

Ah, I think its been mentioned before, but what of Weavile? I've been seeing a lot of it on high ranked teams (1720+) and it's an excellent offensive supporter. B/B- might be more suiting. That thing has kicked my ass more than I care to admit. Didn't know it had Feint LOL.
Ye I didn't notice Weavile because it was all the way down in C+. I definitely think it should rise up to B-, B. Its got a great offensive typing and its got one of the fastest Fake Outs in the game. Along with other support moves like Feint I think Weavile is really good in the meta.
 
Well Titan, it's been a while since we've last spoken, but I would like to contribute to ranking a select couple of mons and re-evaluating some of the current rankings I would like to think otherwise on, which I'll do in a later post.

Starting off, I'll elect for a new toy I've been trying out that's seen a bunch of play in VGC 16 but has a great potential for this format.

Mah nigga Crobat


Unranked -> B- (or so)

Crobat is the near epitomy of support and anti-support packaged into one. Although it faces severe competition and problems from Thundurus and Talonflame both as offensive support Pokemon. Crobat has a major niche in taking a steaming dump on support Pokemon, namely Amoonguss and (to a lesser extent) Cresselia. Amoonguss can't touch it hardly, and Cresselia can hardly OHKO it.

A sample set:

Bruhbat (Crobat) @ Focus Sash/Mental Herb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Quick Guard
- Tailwind
- Super Fang

While Crobat doesn't stick around for long, it has great anti-meta traits in immunity to Fake Out (by Ability and move), Super Fang that is largely underrated in the early game, and a fusion between Talonflame and Thundy-I by ways of Taunt and Tailwind. Tailwind needs no explanation, but Quick Guard and Taunt attempt to shut down some fairly popular top choices (looking at you Pranksters, T.flame, and Amoonguss).

However, Crobat gets utterly destroyed without a strong teammate helping it out, and loses to the likes of Ghosts, and strong hits like Zard Y's Heat Wave and Terrakion's Rock Slide.

I feel like Crobat belongs in the B- tier, as it sits finely with me when you compare it to the likes of Whismsicott and the likes.

Thanks chief.
 
Well Titan, it's been a while since we've last spoken, but I would like to contribute to ranking a select couple of mons and re-evaluating some of the current rankings I would like to think otherwise on, which I'll do in a later post.

Starting off, I'll elect for a new toy I've been trying out that's seen a bunch of play in VGC 16 but has a great potential for this format.

Mah nigga Crobat


Unranked -> B- (or so)

Crobat is the near epitomy of support and anti-support packaged into one. Although it faces severe competition and problems from Thundurus and Talonflame both as offensive support Pokemon. Crobat has a major niche in taking a steaming dump on support Pokemon, namely Amoonguss and (to a lesser extent) Cresselia. Amoonguss can't touch it hardly, and Cresselia can hardly OHKO it.

A sample set:

Bruhbat (Crobat) @ Focus Sash/Mental Herb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Quick Guard
- Tailwind
- Super Fang

While Crobat doesn't stick around for long, it has great anti-meta traits in immunity to Fake Out (by Ability and move), Super Fang that is largely underrated in the early game, and a fusion between Talonflame and Thundy-I by ways of Taunt and Tailwind. Tailwind needs no explanation, but Quick Guard and Taunt attempt to shut down some fairly popular top choices (looking at you Pranksters, T.flame, and Amoonguss).

However, Crobat gets utterly destroyed without a strong teammate helping it out, and loses to the likes of Ghosts, and strong hits like Zard Y's Heat Wave and Terrakion's Rock Slide.

I feel like Crobat belongs in the B- tier, as it sits finely with me when you compare it to the likes of Whismsicott and the likes.

Thanks chief.
Wait, Crobat isn't in the rankings? The fuck. People been shooting speedballs the last year or what.

WELL, we'll be fixing that.
Crobat also has a pretty decent Brave Bird to let it beat Amoonguss faster, and imo is one of the best manual-weather mons available. Very spashable.
Also really similar to Noivern, but better overall. Typing, speed give it an edge imo, all Noivern really has is different but largely useless coverage and Telepathy. Cute as hell though.

So, as a broad announcement of updates:

Mega Abomasnow to B- (from C-)
Abomasnow to C+ (from whatever excessive rank it used to be)
Crobat to B- (from unranked)
Weavile to B- (from C+)

Cobalion I'm going to leave Unranked until someone other than me has good input on it. Just wanna keep it on the floor as a "hey guys, this might be worth a damn" :P
Swampert and Swampert-Mega might need a switch: non-Mega has generally fallen in popularity now that people figured out it gets Wide Guard. Swampert-Mega will seriously rip your ass off if you don't have a well-covered Grass mon, and is a bulky son of a bitch to carry on after Rain dies down. Manual Rain Mega Swampert teams seem to be picking up with the Japanese from my recent laddering ingame and it's a holy terror. Intent is to just switch ratings, nothing too convoluted.
Non-Mega Swampert has really lacking damage output on neutral hits, is utterly inept against the common Water and Fairy mons of the tier, and gets mowed down by Amoonguss really bad. I've seen a few physical ones recently, and with Brave + LO actually hits fairly well, but still flops on Amoonguss/Ferrothorn and bulky Waters. I ran Special Swampy for a while; it basically worked out of hype after its initial success as a Landog + Mence + Heatran check.
Mega Swampy actually does respectable damage, and does not fucking die. Rain removes Swampert's #1 flaw and sends damage out of the roof, but still seems to work even without it.
Bisharp. Does this thing even see usage or success above 1550 anymore? Shit Speed, average bulk, and a general increase of people running Garchomp over Landog, on top of Sucker Punch being VERY obvious and exploitable, makes me think it could use a drop. Unique and good typing, but it runs one set, with 2 item choices, and is rarely hard to play around.
 
I want to support dropping Bisharp, maybe B rank. I much prefer many of the higher mons to it, tho it still isn't bad and certainly far from unviable with a STAB Sucker Punch to bypass its low Spe. And Defiant ofc.

That said...that's really the main stuff it has, so it's easy to play around with Sub, or running enough evs to live +1 Sucker at the cost of Spe, since Bisharp will expect to be slower and thus Sucker if not sash. Other moves there's really not a lot. You can pretty much count on Protect, Iron Head, and Knock Off. Sometimes the odd Low Kick, but it doesn't beat Kang at all so why even.

Bisharp has some other nice moves, but is outclassed running anything like Snarl(by Intimidate mons,) and T-Wave(most stuff that gets it and is viable.) Bulk is bad with that low HP. At least if its stronger defensive stat was really high to make up for that like with Skarmory.

Even its Atk isn't totally absurd or anything. Lots of stuff has 125 Atk or more, and you can't count on a Defiant boost. And often when you do manage to get the boost it's not enough cuz the foe is Arcanine or something. Items you mostly just have the two choices, since it has to either live a strong hit or hit really hard. Just not that good imo, use Milotic fer stat droppers, at least it beats lots of Intimidate mons without help.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top