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While I wouldn't put too much weight in the current rankings (there are plenty we'll be changing hopefully in the near future), OU Viability does not translate 1 to 1 with BSS Viability. There are plenty of mons that are strong in OU but mediocre in BSS, or worse. The reverse is also true of course, Mimikyu and Celesteela are pretty broken here but OU doesn't seem to like those two as much as we do. Stuff like Snorlax and Lapras also tend to be way better here than in Smogon metas, though that leans into other stuff like items that are stronger here too (Assault Vest, Sitrus Berry, in the case of other Pokemon there's also the coveted Focus Sash slot).

Sheer Force is a dead ability slot with Dynamax and its Max Move options are pretty mediocre for a special attacker of its kind (no Special Airstream option is pretty bad), and Landorus-Therian is far superior which further increases the opportunity cost of using Landorus-I in the first place. It's not exactly a terrible Pokemon or anything, there's just not a lot of reason to recommend it at the moment over other faster special attackers (ex. Nihilego), and of course there's better special Airstreamers like Kantonian Zapdos and Galarian Moltres.

For future reference though, feel free to ask future viability questions in the VR thread itself. Don't be afraid to question something there!
Thank you very much - thats an excellent answer!
 
I'm thinking of making a second team, w/ BP Scolipede and Cresselia but this time CM Stored Power not Lunar Dance. The Scolipede will be 252/ 4/ 116/ 0/ 4/ 132+ EVs, and for moves I'm thinking Iron Defense/ BP/ Skitter Smack/ Toxic. Skitter Smack isn't used according to Pikalytics, but I like it to drop SpA since Scolipede boosts Def. Is this good?
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
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I'm thinking of making a second team, w/ BP Scolipede and Cresselia but this time CM Stored Power not Lunar Dance. The Scolipede will be 252/ 4/ 116/ 0/ 4/ 132+ EVs, and for moves I'm thinking Iron Defense/ BP/ Skitter Smack/ Toxic. Skitter Smack isn't used according to Pikalytics, but I like it to drop SpA since Scolipede boosts Def. Is this good?
The minimum Speed EVs you should run on Scolipede in the current meta is 164+. You need to be faster than Zapdos and Salamence, otherwise they will just attack into your face; if they Airstream you have no Speed advantage. If you really want to Substitute vs Airstream users, max Speed will allow you to outpace Thundurus-I, although I tend not to bother because if its Thundurus-I lead you have to play like its Taunt anyways.

You NEED Protect. If they lead a Rotom form, Tapu Fini, Latios, etc, you always have to Protect to scout if they are going for Choice Scarf Trick. Protect also helps scout for Taunt, Encore, Sparkling Aria, Scale Shot, and other moves that can curtail your attempts to set-up. Substitute is important for stalling Dynamax turns; one of the best things about Scolipede is due to its naturally high Speed against a lot of common Dyanamax users it can easily stall all three turns.

The last slot is more flexible. Swords Dance and Iron Defense are the obvious choices, but if you only care about passing Speed and Substitutes, I recommend Toxic. Whirlwind Hippowdon is a very common answer to Scolipede; hitting it with Toxic is the best option against it. With Toxic, Black Sludge, Protect, and Substitute, Scolipede can apply a ton of pressure to Pokemon like Porygon2. Skitter Smack seems situational, against a lot of Special Attackers you probably aren't lowering their SpAtk enough to keep Scolipede safe from the various Flamethrowers, Surfs and Thunderbolts floating around the metagame, especially since Porygon2 is always getting a Special Attack boost from Download.
 
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I hope this is a good place to post this question, seems simple enough -

How to stop Tapu Fini? Whether it's offensive, bulky Calm Mind, or god forbid I ever run into these Trick Scarfers I hear about (have not encountered yet) I literally can't beat it. I even had a +2 252+ Tyranitar with Max Lightning that couldn't break it...

I assume things like Rillaboom, Dracozolt, Zapdos, Regieleki are pretty standard to check Fini? I feel like you still struggle against the extremely popular Calm Mind Draining Kiss set with Zapdos/Leki, and while Dracozolt ruled Series 6 I feel like it's a little underwhelming now (is it not?)

Any other tips?
 
I use weakness policy on Landorus-T. I dynamax, take the surf, then 2hko, going 1st the 2nd time for sure because of Airstream t1. Your own faster Taunt Fini can stop their set up then do same. Cinderace gets Gunk Shot for it.

I've been running Mr.Mime because I hate screens and they're pretty common. Should it be max HP or SpA? I figure max Spe timid either way.
 
I use weakness policy on Landorus-T. I dynamax, take the surf, then 2hko, going 1st the 2nd time for sure because of Airstream t1. Your own faster Taunt Fini can stop their set up then do same. Cinderace gets Gunk Shot for it.

I've been running Mr.Mime because I hate screens and they're pretty common. Should it be max HP or SpA? I figure max Spe timid either way.
What EV Spread are you using for Lando-T? If you don't have HP or SpD investment, Specs Fini will still OHKO you while Dynamaxed with Ice Beam.
 
Fini has STAB water so fairly few-20%-run Ice beam. Specs is just 10% so it mostly is ok. And it can live DRacovish Fishious Rend and stuff for the boost it's not just for fini.
 

marilli

fiery dracoknight
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the defending Battle Spot Circuit Champion
One of the big problems with dealing with Tapu Fini is how diverse it is despite basically using the same old 2 STAB moves on every set. It's all they really need to be successful, so they have a huge number of options on its last 2 moves (coverage like Ice Beam, or setup like CM 3 attacks, Sub CM, or CM + Iron Defense, or utility like Trick, Taunt, etc.) EV spreads (some HP is all it takes to eat unboosted super effective STABs, but going Bold and Max Defense let you eat a lot of neutral damage), and items.

So figuring out the set based on calcs and metagame knowledge helps a lot. If it has minimum bulk investment, it might be scarf. If it's very bulky, you might be looking at CM setup variant. If it just has 252 HP, you might be looking at an offensive CM set or even Choice Specs. You are going to see a lot of conditional statements for beating Tapu Fini ("if it doesn't have X, then Y beats it") And usually, putting yourself in a better position from the lead will give you more opportunity to figure this out. There's a lot of difference between leading Hippowdon and facing a Tapu Fini with no information revealed, and a Fini that switches into Hippowdon EQ - now you know their Defense investment, if they have Leftovers (a big tell for heavy setup variants like Sub CM or CM + Iron Defense), and they are now in KO range of super effective attacks like Naganadel and Nihilego Sludge Bomb, and such. If you lead Regleleki or Nihilego vs Tapu Fini, they will likely switch out - but then for them to get Fini back on the field, they will likely switch into a resisted hit and concede defensive benchmarks and information on its investment all the same.

Tapu Fini has no long-term sustain aside from the very slow CM + ID + Draining Kiss set. So peppering it with neutral damage - or even forcing it to switch into resisted hit, helps you deal with it because every bit of damage sticks unless using the slow Leftovers. Setup variants of Fini also don't do much immediate damage (or have coverage, usually) so it means that you can set up on them, or taunt them, or switch hard into your Rillaboom without taking a million from Moonblast or Ice Beam, for example. Bulky Fini without Taunt / Sub can also concede SubSeed opportunities to Celesteela, as +1 Surf does nowhere enough to deter the SubSeed loop.

There's a few Pokemon that just hard counter most Tapu Fini. Ferrothorn is one, Seismic Toss Chansey should count as one (even if it gets Tricked you're not beating that lol). You don't need them to beat Fini, but if you have a lot of Pokemon that lose to it, then you might want to consider that.
 
A pokemon as well rounded and as excellent as Tapu Fini has very few counters that straight up just OHKO it or force it out in every situation and it is a solid bring in almost every game. That's what makes it such a staple when it comes to BSS. The traditional way to deal with Fini is just to bash it with stuff that outtrades it to reduce its HP as it doesn't get reliable recovery. Generally these are Electric types, Poison Types, other very bulky pokemon such as Porygon2, Ferrothorn and Celesteela that can stay in vs. Fini and have better sustain and outtrade.

It should be noted to be careful switching in even hard counters. Generally Fini's hardest checks such as Ferrothorn and Chansey are completely crippled by Trick and especially in stall matchups getting a Trick off for the Fini player vs. these pokemon is a win for the Fini player and potentially game over even if you are still winning the 1v1 so it can be better to pivot and take advantage of the fact that Fini doesn't hit hard without boosts in order to scout the set and then switch into the check.
 

marilli

fiery dracoknight
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the defending Battle Spot Circuit Champion
I think this transitions well into an important teambuilding principle in BSS if you are interested in using niche Pokemon or want to branch into building your own teams. Not all losing matchups are created equal, and you want to think ahead: What you can do to the Pokemon when it switches in? How safe is it for you to predict those switches (or do you need to at all)? How common are the Pokemon that you lose to? How safe is it for them to call your switch to your check (or do they need to at all)? The more strongly losing your matchup is, the more likely it is you are going to have to invest in a safe switch-in. And if it is indeed such a safe switch-in, don't expect them to have no answer to it.

Switching into top tier Pokemon like Cinderace, Celesteela, or Tapu Fini is never going to be a fun affair. That's why they are so good. And if they have a hard losing matchup (like Fini does vs Ferrothorn) the number of those Pokemon are so small, that it is perfectly reasonable to come equipped with counters prepared. On the other hand, a more unreliable Pokemon like Dracozolt may have an advantage against top tier Pokemon: it beats Celesteela, but can't make progress onto Landorus-T switching in without taking another huge risk. The deck is clearly stacked against you - you are playing a sucker's game because of the disadvantage at team preview.

If you have strongly losing matchups to top threats, there are three main ways to handle it:
  • First, is to have hard counters. However, you have to think ahead. They are often going to have hard counters to your hard counters, so you have to consider the entire cycle and see if you can actually come out ahead. Teambuilding with cores is an easy way to get into things because a lot of these switch cycle thinking has already been done for you.

    As Ika points out, this process is easy for Pokemon like Trick Tapu Fini. Having access to moves like Trick lets its whole team come out ahead in these extended switch cycle, even if Fini individually still loses the matchup. Chansey could be Tricked and still beat Tapu Fini, but if it locks itself into Seismic Toss against Mimikyu switching in, that is a +2 Mimikyu with Disguise intact that you have to beat. That is not good unless they have another hard counter in their pocket.

    In contrast, let's look at a Pokemon like Dracozolt: you might say I have Celesteela so I feel completely fine using Dracozolt and losing to Landorus-T. But then, they might say I call your switch and u-turn out into Cinderace, or Rotom, or a faster Substitute user, so I feel completely fine losing to Celesteela with Landorus-T. And now you're back at a disadvantage again, unless you have the exact set to flip the tables against Cinderace, or are willing to invest the third team selection slot to alleviate this problem.

  • Second, is to not bring it. It sounds like an easy copout, but this is usually the best way to take advantage of matchups you can't win if there's many of them. Unless you're one of those broken Pokemon like Tapu Fini that actually do have ways to punish every switch-in.

    So for something like Dracozolt, Landorus-T and Hippowdon is super common, so it means that it is may be forcefully benched in a lot of games, playing a supporting role off the bench in specific matchups. It means that you aren't going to be able to rely on the Pokemon to handle important threats. Indeed, Pokemon like Dracozolt is not a reliable Celesteela check or anything check exactly because how unlikely it is they don't have countermeasures. But even when you don't bring your Dracozolt, it's still pressuring the opponent. It's forcing the Landorus-T to be brought alongside any Pokemon that lose to Dracozolt, unless they are willing to take the big risk of straight up losing to it.

  • Third is to luring out and weakening said threats. Pokemon like Cinderace can catch its otherwise would-be counters like Fini and Hippowdon with a tech move, or dedicated counter set. This means that having a Fini-weak Pokemon and bringing it in the back can be more easily justified if you can manage to bait out those Pokemon and KO it. Surprise Weakness Policy gimmicks fall under this category.

    However, you have to beware of your team preview getting messed up if you have too many situational sets like these. They also can't be your main way of beating it because if you bring in Cinderace into Fini everyone knows what's up, and you're going to have to play the honest cycle game as they go into a Gunk Shot resist. I mean, you could pull the Jedi mind trick on them and bring in a Cinderace without Gunk Shot into Fini and they switch out and you call the switch out, but that's so risky and inconsistent. They work best with element of surprise in your favor.
For weakly-losing matchups, you have more options. If you have a way to threaten the switch-in with significant damage, like Magnezone Flash Cannon onto Defensive Landorus-T, that's still good progress you're making. And this ability to threaten back gives you more leeway to switch in a wider range of checks. Magnezone loses to Cinderace, but because it can threaten back with a lot of damage (if not outright KO) if it doesn't go for the Fireball, it's a lot safer to hard switch in Scarf Dracovish that would get blasted by Max Airstream but wins vs Max Fireball. And instead of having to catch a Pokemon out with a dedicated lure like Special Cinderace to beat physically defensive Ground-types, Pokemon like Landorus-T or Garchomp only needs neutral or resisted hits like Urshifu Close Combat to put checks like Fini in KO range of +2 Max Quake.
 
I've basically given up trying to make Regice work, as in short it takes too much from the new max moves and even what it lives it can't ohko/2hko Dynamaxed Pokemon usually. But I don't want an excessively standard team. I already have the 3 top mons and 2 that are known to be good, if not top threats. So my last slot is something more fun. Atm it's between Regirock, Mr.Mime-G, and Tsareena.

I have the moves for the 1st 2 mostly decided but a bit unsure on Tsareena. Scarf for sure, and HJK/ Trop Kick/ Triple Axel are almost a given, but can't decide between Play Rough and Bounce Max Airstream.
 
What else are you running? It isn't obvious what any of those three would be doing for your team except something like screen clearing Mime-G.
 
AV Heatran(was Rotom-H, but Nihilego needs to be checked,) and Regieleki. Regirock sets rocks and has T-Wave, Body Press, Explosion Sturdy Custap. Tsareena I like, good coverage, just trying it out.

EDIT: Nvm, using a different team now.
 
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Been thinking of getting into this meta. How common is it for matches to be decided by the timer? How common/viable is timer stalling? I've heard mixed things about it
 

RoyalReloaded

formerly xRoyal64
Been thinking of getting into this meta. How common is it for matches to be decided by the timer? How common/viable is timer stalling? I've heard mixed things about it
has happened to me once in 300+ games, so I would say it's not super viable
 

marilli

fiery dracoknight
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the defending Battle Spot Circuit Champion
Been thinking of getting into this meta. How common is it for matches to be decided by the timer? How common/viable is timer stalling? I've heard mixed things about it
If you have a decently bulky team with sustain, you should keep your eyes open for it and actively play for it when the opportunity presents itself. It's not cheap and there's nothing wrong with playing for the timer. Blame the game, not the player. You'll find many timer stall win opportunities. Timer stalling is more viable when you have a stallier team, but I would say even without using a hard stall I've found ~5 timer wins in less than 100 games last time i tryharded on the ladder. And yeah, I was the one actively going for it most of the time.

I think it really depends on your team. You aren't going to get timer stalled out when you're using an all out offense. On the other hand, sets like SubRecover Porygon2 have some very easy timer win conditions. If you take a KO and get yourself in a standstill, you win. Life Orb 4 attacks Zapdos is never going to get into a timer war, but Eerie Impulse / Charge Zapdos mirrors take long enough that it can never be decided by 20 minutes unless you get a crit. Note that these sets aren't just there so you can timer stall better. They are good Pokemon that are good at what they do, and the timer stalling win condition is just a bonus.
 
I am new to the competitive scene and I've wanted to get into a tournement. My switch is broken and I was wondering whether the upcoming Dragon Cup was on Pokemon Showdown or on SS
 

RoyalReloaded

formerly xRoyal64
I am new to the competitive scene and I've wanted to get into a tournement. My switch is broken and I was wondering whether the upcoming Dragon Cup was on Pokemon Showdown or on SS
switch, but there's a ladder for it on showdown. I wouldn't expect it to be active when the official tournament comes around, though.
 

cant say

twitch.tv/jakecantsay
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okay. I've made a team on the Ladder but its kinda useless bc I can't play this tournement lol
If you think the team is good you could still post it in the Dragon King Cup thread and talk about your experience on that ladder. Those that are playing in the real thing would probably appreciate that.
 
Is Court Change on Cinderace too situational? I keep losing to screens, more than anything.
If you're going to use Cinderace to beat screens, I would think the Scope Lens + Focus Energy set would be the way to go so you can just crit through them. Even so, I think inserting Cinderace safely to even get off the Court Change would be pretty difficult and would depend on what the opponent is bringing (though admittedly this could also be said for Focus Energy Cindy as well.) With some creativity it might work, but unless you really want those screens flipped to your side I would think there are far simpler ways to deal with it: Brick Break/Psychic Fang users, Urshifu, and Infiltrator. Or you need a defense/stall mode that can cycle around common screens abusers until they run out.
 

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