Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread

I needed to make sure the berry activates to survive the second hit.
the problem is that the guaranteed OHKO after stealth rock means that you really need the game flow to prevent any rocks up. Very hard to do reliably.

the fact that you’re teching an abomasnow to only deal with one threat also means you won’t get consistent results. It might surprise someone one game, and then fail to be useful for the next 4

so you won’t get consistent ladder results.

the best teams are the ones that can reliably perform against the top threats.
 
Magmortar @ Sitrus Berry / Figy Berry /Salac Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Flare Blitz / Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch / Substitute
- Earthquake
He's too slow for all this. He worked well on my Trick room team when I removed Speed IVS and put 252 EV on HP. Thanks for the recommendation.
 
Speaking of, wasn't Sky Shaymin unanimously banned way back when? Because knowing this, I think Sky Shaymin is a quickban waiting to happen.
I don't even think it's worthwhile to give it a shake in OU. And yeah it was unanimously banned in Gen 5 OU. I have a hard time seeing how it would be balanced in this metagame which has significant power de-creep from metagames it has been unceremoniously banned in
 
I have an explanation for why Shaymin-S is not always auto-banned and is less broken than other Ubers.

Thing is, by Stats and movepool alone, Shaymin-S is not broken. Even if it has Earth Power, many Steels wall it, many fire types can take an attack and OHKO, CM Blissey in theory would beat even Sub Seed variants. Ice Type RK easily, Ditto RKs easily, Dragonite just uses DD and OHKOs.

Enter Serene Grace and suddenly, all checks are invalidated by flinches and Sdef Drops. Without Serene Grace Shaymin-S is just a regular special attacker, not very different from Latios, Gengar, Alakazam or Starmie. Yes, it's faster than some of them, but the power level is similar and it even doesn't have Nasty Plot or CM. With Serene Grace through that doesn't matter and it becomes obviously broken.

But the difference with other Ubers is that Serene Grace doesn't always work, at least in theory. I will put some examples:
-Kyogre has Drizzle and powerful moves. It always has Drizzle and powerful moves, so it obliterates everything except the few checks it has. OU Metagame can adapt to Kyogre, but it has to do it by running several of the few checks Kyogre has.
-Mewtwo has high speed, NP and powerful moves. The moves he chooses always work and the checks are very few. OU can adapt to Mewtwo, but has to run the few checks it has often, such as Spiritomb.

-Shaymin-S is different. At least in theory, Serene Grace doesn't always work. In theory, Shaymin-S has many checks that will always check it, as long as Serene Grace doesn't work. OU is naturally adapted to Shaymin-S when Serene Grace doesn't work, it has many checks and counters. It ends up being banned when Smogon sees that Serene Grace is still too much on such a fast Mon, but it's not the same level of broken like other Ubers, because, at least in theory, Shaymin-S is unreliable and has many checks.

Hopefully I have explained it well enough.
 
repost because i am a dolt and put in BDSP UU instead of BDSP OU


I am legitimately enjoying Scarf Raikou rn.
:ss/raikou:
R (Raikou) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave/Shadow Ball
- Scald
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch



its like a more offensive washtom that doesnt have as much bulk or support. It's also faster being able to handle shell smashers such as cloy at +2 as well as OHKOing feraligatr unharmed (it can also twave other ddancers so slow mons such as dragonite can KO.) It also beats scarfers base 100 and above (when modest) which is something rwash cannot do.

in return, it loses Trick, which is awful for it, since it can't cripple stuff like Blissey which is very Not Good. It also has to use scald instead of rwash's stab hydro pump to touch ground types. it still 2hkoes a lot of them and you can fish for burns, but you cant touch mons such as Garchomp which Rwash would to loads more to.

Also if you don't need twave you can run shadow ball and then go timid to outspeed and 2HKO scarf latios and latias

https://pokepast.es/2776b0d5e2443f0a team using it. i like it so far; i'm not the best builder but it's not awful.
 

cyberacc

formerly Suckingmoreducks
Raikou is a great little balance dog. It and Suicune can put a lot of bulky waters in awkward situations and forcing switches with its speed tier is fun.

I myself would go Specs or Timid CM to pressure the ever living hell out of slower teams: While Raikou isnt exactly bulky compared to Suicune it can reliably chew up harass from most special walls and set up on them without much effort on its' users part. Also a funny old school core that still works is Crocune + Sub CM: Spikes and Stealth Rock support lets you basically cleave through most teams at +1 since Grass types are heavily pressured in the current metagame by the big dumb dragons (who all hate scald Burn mind you) and doomstacking two mons with scary STABs lets you nail some common slow mons atm (Gliscor Skarmory)


All in all Raikou is just the best thing I can think of for a B tier: Its not flashy but it gets the job done well enough for me to seriously use it often in my builds.
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
Wanna discuss a couple of things.

:ss/weavile:

This thing is obscene right now. Both Band and Swords Dance are quite difficult to deal with and very hard to confidently switch into. Choice Band is my personal favorite as it is a very effective breaker right now, especially when paired with Flame Body Heatran to punish Scizor and pressure other pivots like Skarm and Clef. It revenge kills the Latis, Chomp, Breloom, and general chipped stuff since Weav is very fast for a priority user and can out prioritize things like Infernape and Azumarill if absolutely necessary. Additionally, its an Ice-Type that heavily pressures the Slowtwins, which can put some Slowbro builds into a very awkward situation. I've also seen that builds utilizing Jirachi have issues consistently switching in. You can also viably run Focus Punch on this in my opinion to obliterate Heatran (just don't get burned 4head). I also really like SD/Life Orb on hyper offense. It fits great in an HO chain, can help out against certain offense killers like Breloom, and is just difficult to defensively answer especially if your HO is of the Spike Stacking variety. All in all a great mon and potentially even suspect worthy but there are bigger fish to fry in that department at the moment.

:ss/yanmega::ss/aggron:

I was very skeptical of these two as breakers at first because of their very obvious flaws and competition from other very solid breakers like Daunt, Ape, and Ttar, but they are both honestly surprisingly decent in their own right. Yanmega is a chore for most non-Blissey teams to switch into, its STAB combination is surprisingly functional in its own right, as a lot of offensive teams have Scizor as their Steel, and even if they have something like Heatran or Empoleon they can only switch in once at most. Stealth Rock is an issue for sure but I have not had issues fitting it on teams that can also utilize options like Defog Gliscor or Spin Starmie to help out in this department. Can't really do much against Blissey except U-turn out but you at least keep momentum, so one can pair it with a Blissey abuser rather easily. Aggron, meanwhile, is a nuke that can switch into some Clefable and Scizor sets rather reliably. This is pretty big right now, and our Rock resists are pretty questionable at the moment, so Aggron can go crazy. Unfortunately it lost Ice Punch so it has to run Avalance to catch Chomp on the switch. Not exactly consistent but if you are the brazy kind of player it works surprisingly well.
 
Got to the top 20 on ladder today mostly riding the surprise nuke factor of specs Tangrowth. Really good set -- people switch all sorts of things in expecting a passive mon but instead get blown back by leafstorm. Here are some relevant calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 354-417 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 339-400 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 143-168 (47.5 - 55.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 206-243 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 292-344 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 159-188 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 255-300 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 176+ SpD Breloom: 308-364 (96.2 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 394-465 (111.2 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Does about 80-90% to spdef gliscor -- can OHKO w/ rocks depending on the spread (can't against 252/252+ but most people run some speed). Gotta be careful not to get knocked off or else you might lose 1v1, but Gliscor also can't roost. People might be catching on, but even at high ladder I've seen a lot of people stay in w/ Gliscor to defog / SR and get ohkoed lol.

You're still bulky enough to pivot into Rotom-w infinitely, wall brelooms (although CB force palm might 2hko), be a decent chomp check (only +2 LO outrage can kill you), and you can even keep knock off or sleep powder in the 4th slot to make some guaranteed progress. Annoying that you can't do more to Scizor or Dragonite (or Blissey) but has been a fun mon to mess around with.
what are the EVs? im assuiming 252+ spa but do i go max speed or do i run HP?
 
what are the EVs? im assuiming 252+ spa but do i go max speed or do i run HP?
I’d use this:

Tangrowth @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain / Knock Off

There’s really no point in running speed on Tangrowth. It can’t realistically outspeed anything that’s meta-relevant. Giga Drain is the best option in the last move slot imo but Knock Off could be better for hazard-stacking teams.
 

su1p

formerly VKadenius
breloomblack.png

Hello,
I wish a good sunday to everyone playing this fine tier!
Unfortunately everyone doesn't want you to have fun and one of them is this devil...
I have played tons of BDSP OU and recently it has been very difficult to deal with this pokemon. Spore is the main problem with him, it not being a 2 turn sleep, but being max 3 turns and 100% accurate move. Technician is an incredible ability, which allows Breloom to dish out massive damage with Bullet Seed, Mach Punch and Rock Tomb. I myself have used Swords Dance as a replacement for Rock Tomb. Currently there are close to none spore absorbers in the tier or anywhere near it. Natural Cure users don't count as they have a bad matchup anyways. Magic Bouncers we have are Espeon and Xatu, both frail and despite Xatu resisting both Grass and Fighting, Rock Tomb is definitely not a bad move for the agaricus. Azelf has been a pretty good lead against it, Flamethrower and hope the Loom gets only 2 hits with Bullet Seed :D. One very desperate coping method I saw was Neutralizing Gas Weezing specifically for Loom, ridiculous
(
)
&
(lmao...)
Lead sash variant is deadliest in my opinion. You need to be very careful around it and then also consider Choice Scarf. Bulky Offense or Balance definitely doesn't like having 1 pokemon asleep. It's always going to be difficult for Hyper Offensive teams to deal with Loom as it always seems to get 1 pokemon to sleep, practically making it a sacrifice, and get a lot of momentum to top it off. Rock Tomb removes all hopes of taking advantage of it with for example Dragon Dance Dragonite.

Breloom heavily restricts building and is a very problematic pokemon, it is going to get even worse if Latios gets banned. Definitely should be put on the table in Council.

somewhat of a decent rating i had
chrome_yBfWKhNYCM.png

 

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Breloom is overrated and not broken at all. Spore is annoying, I get it, but its not different from Sleep Powder or Lovely Kiss except for the accuracy. Of course, Breloom is strong by itself even without Spore, so he is a different threat compared to something like Tangrowth. This means you have to both absorb the Spore and resist Breloom Moves to be a reliable check.

Its time to show a list of shit I consider viable that check Breloom well. I will divide them in 2 parts:

1. Checks that deal very well with every Breloom that doesn,t have Rock Tomb. I am yet to see a Rock Tomb Breloom in this Meta, but the move is good and viable in order to invalidate some checks. Still, more often than not, you will see Breloom without Rock Tomb, since to use it, it has to give up either Spore or Sword Dance (Band Breloom probably is the best set with Rock Tomb):

-Dragonite. Resists both STABs, can have Roost, can kill Breloom with multiple things. Defensive Dragonite is probably the best at this.

-Gengar. Immune to one STAB, resists the other. Easily takes 3 Bullet Seeds of LO Breloom and up to 5 from LO one. The best thing is that Bullet Seed has more chances to trigger Cursed Body.


-Latios. Again, not the best check and defintely don,t absorb Spore with this one unless its Specs + Sleep Talk. Still, works after something else absorbs Spore.


-Togekiss. Now, this one laughs at every move except Rock Tomb. It also OHKOs Breloom and is bulky enough to actually wake up, so its a good Spore absorber.

-Arcanine. Defensive Arcanine can take everything except LO/Band Rock Tomb and absorbs sleep well. Its not a Mon only to use for Breloom, since it checks Weavile, Scizor, Jirachi and Infernape too, among others. Has niche in Stall teams.

-Ariados. Now, I will admit this one is exclusively for Breloom. Its immune to Spore thanks to Insomnia and resists x4 both STABs. Despite being literally only for Breloom, its the only Sticky Webber in the game that can lead against the mushroom. It also gets Toxic Spikes as additional bonus.

-Charizard. Viable in Sun teams. Its spamming Fire Moves and Focus Blasts, so it has room to run Sleep Talk as last move.

-Drifblim. If burned (Flare Boost), it absorbs any Breloom move and can throw powerful Shadow Balls that will deal heavy damage to everything that is not Blissey or a Dark Type.

-Heracross. Guts (Flame Orb or Band Sleep Talk) wallbreaker. Lives any 2 hits from Breloom and OHKOs back.

-Moltres. Takes both STABs easily. I have actually used this Mon and as punishment to Scizor (a very common Mon) with Flame Body, its very good. It gets Defog (though it can,t be the only Defogger of the team) and can Defog away Rocks from Clefable, Gliscor and Hippowdon, among others. Hits hard with Flamethrower and Hurricane (except when there are Blissey, Heatran, Tyranitar or Rotom).

-Salamence. Dragonite but with Intimidate instead of Multiscale. This goes for both Defensive and Offensive sets.

-Shedinja. Everyone knows what this does at this point. Well, Rock Tomb-less Breloom is one of the victims.

-Torkoal. Bulky enough to absorb Spore. Can also use Restalk reliably.

-Tropius. Harvest is fun. Need Spikes to work, but I have used this Mon to get reqs for Latios. Works as Subseeder with Harvest + Sitrus Berry. With the support of hazards, can dismantle some teams in a epic way.

-Venomoth. Dangerous Quiver Dance Mon that resists x4 both STABs.

-Vespiquen. Haven,t tried this yet, but outside of Aerodactyl, this is the only Deffoger that has Pressure. It beats these Rockers:
Clefable: 0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vespiquen: 90-106 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO < Only can win with CM.
Empoleon: 252+ SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vespiquen: 138-164 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Normally Empoleon will be defensive, but Vespiquen can beat even offensive variants if there are no crits.
Defensive Garchomps that don,t have SE.
Gliscor without Taunt.
And Blissey unless lots of parahax.

On top of that, it beats non Rock Tomb Breloom and switches into Tangrowth, which is relevant for Specs variants.



-Victreebel. Sun Mon immune to Spore.

-Xatu. Magic Bouncer. Never liked this Mon, but many people consider it viable. At least it does wall Breloom.

-Yanmega. Terrific wallbreaker. Has room to run Sleep Talk as 4th move, since only special STABs and U-Turn are really needed. Rock TOmb-less Breloom is a free switch-in for Yanmega and very few things actually switch into Yanmega after that.

-Zapdos. Why is this bird not OU? Well, this time I don,t need to prove that its viable.


2. Mons that check Breloom even if it has Rock Tomb.


-Gliscor. Not very good to switch into Bullet Seed, but handles every other move. Facade usually 2HKOs.

-Latias. This goes in this section, unlike Latios. Way bulkier and can run defensive sets. Deals very well with Breloom due to being bulky enough to wake up.

-Tangrowth. Totally walls Breloom and kills with Sludge Bomb. Only Sub-Punch Breloom can be a threat, and very minuscule one.

-Sip Sapper Azumarill. Unfortunately, it lost Whirpool, so Breloom is really the only reason to run. Lets go to the next check.

-Cresselia. Bulky enough to wake up and KO with Psychic.

-Exeggutor. Again, Harvest is fun. Its worse that Tropius, but has niche in TR teams. Totally walls Breloom and OHKOs.

-Roserade. Has a niche as Spiker and can be a Pdef one to check both Breloom and the more dangerous Azumarill. Also Clefs without Flamethrower.

-Venusaur. Sun sweeper, bulkier than Victreebel.

-Vileplume. Bulky but slow Grass. Totally destriys Breloom.

-Weezing. Neutralizing Gas makes Poison Heal Breloom die and the Technician one very weak. Its bulky enough to wake up.


Even though most of these Mons are not common, there are enough Mons that are OU by usage alone that deal with Breloom well enough. I say this as someone that both used and faced Breloom lots of times. Also, I haven,t even mentioned yet about Breloom's inhability to come safely into the field and numerous weaknesses that allow for easy revenge killing.
 

Lalaya

Banned deucer.
ngl as much as I agree in Breloom being a powerful, but still very flawed presence in the metagame I died in seeing half of the Pokémon mentioned above
it's just better to say that there's loads of offensive counterplay united to a good presence of defensive counterplay in the forms of Gliscor, Tangrowth and half the Dragon meta at the very least, other than Sleep itself being unreliable at times (hi turn1 wake up) to put Breloom back in its place, being a powerful threat in its own right, especially counting its sets variance, but still being unable to break past its usual slew of counters united to poor Speed and not so much of a decent defensive typing/stats relying on pivots or good doubles to be brought safely
 

su1p

formerly VKadenius
Breloom is overrated and not broken at all. Spore is annoying, I get it, but its not different from Sleep Powder or Lovely Kiss except for the accuracy. Of course, Breloom is strong by itself even without Spore, so he is a different threat compared to something like Tangrowth. This means you have to both absorb the Spore and resist Breloom Moves to be a reliable check.

Its time to show a list of shit I consider viable that check Breloom well. I will divide them in 2 parts:

1. Checks that deal very well with every Breloom that doesn,t have Rock Tomb. I am yet to see a Rock Tomb Breloom in this Meta, but the move is good and viable in order to invalidate some checks. Still, more often than not, you will see Breloom without Rock Tomb, since to use it, it has to give up either Spore or Sword Dance (Band Breloom probably is the best set with Rock Tomb):

-Dragonite. Resists both STABs, can have Roost, can kill Breloom with multiple things. Defensive Dragonite is probably the best at this.

-Gengar. Immune to one STAB, resists the other. Easily takes 3 Bullet Seeds of LO Breloom and up to 5 from LO one. The best thing is that Bullet Seed has more chances to trigger Cursed Body.


-Latios. Again, not the best check and defintely don,t absorb Spore with this one unless its Specs + Sleep Talk. Still, works after something else absorbs Spore.


-Togekiss. Now, this one laughs at every move except Rock Tomb. It also OHKOs Breloom and is bulky enough to actually wake up, so its a good Spore absorber.

-Arcanine. Defensive Arcanine can take everything except LO/Band Rock Tomb and absorbs sleep well. Its not a Mon only to use for Breloom, since it checks Weavile, Scizor, Jirachi and Infernape too, among others. Has niche in Stall teams.

-Ariados. Now, I will admit this one is exclusively for Breloom. Its immune to Spore thanks to Insomnia and resists x4 both STABs. Despite being literally only for Breloom, its the only Sticky Webber in the game that can lead against the mushroom. It also gets Toxic Spikes as additional bonus.

-Charizard. Viable in Sun teams. Its spamming Fire Moves and Focus Blasts, so it has room to run Sleep Talk as last move.

-Drifblim. If burned (Flare Boost), it absorbs any Breloom move and can throw powerful Shadow Balls that will deal heavy damage to everything that is not Blissey or a Dark Type.

-Heracross. Guts (Flame Orb or Band Sleep Talk) wallbreaker. Lives any 2 hits from Breloom and OHKOs back.

-Moltres. Takes both STABs easily. I have actually used this Mon and as punishment to Scizor (a very common Mon) with Flame Body, its very good. It gets Defog (though it can,t be the only Defogger of the team) and can Defog away Rocks from Clefable, Gliscor and Hippowdon, among others. Hits hard with Flamethrower and Hurricane (except when there are Blissey, Heatran, Tyranitar or Rotom).

-Salamence. Dragonite but with Intimidate instead of Multiscale. This goes for both Defensive and Offensive sets.

-Shedinja. Everyone knows what this does at this point. Well, Rock Tomb-less Breloom is one of the victims.

-Torkoal. Bulky enough to absorb Spore. Can also use Restalk reliably.

-Tropius. Harvest is fun. Need Spikes to work, but I have used this Mon to get reqs for Latios. Works as Subseeder with Harvest + Sitrus Berry. With the support of hazards, can dismantle some teams in a epic way.

-Venomoth. Dangerous Quiver Dance Mon that resists x4 both STABs.

-Vespiquen. Haven,t tried this yet, but outside of Aerodactyl, this is the only Deffoger that has Pressure. It beats these Rockers:</p><p>Clefable: 0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vespiquen: 90-106 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO < Only can win with CM.
Empoleon: 252+ SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vespiquen: 138-164 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Normally Empoleon will be defensive, but Vespiquen can beat even offensive variants if there are no crits.
Defensive Garchomps that don,t have SE.
Gliscor without Taunt.
And Blissey unless lots of parahax.

On top of that, it beats non Rock Tomb Breloom and switches into Tangrowth, which is relevant for Specs variants.



-Victreebel. Sun Mon immune to Spore.

-Xatu. Magic Bouncer. Never liked this Mon, but many people consider it viable. At least it does wall Breloom.

-Yanmega. Terrific wallbreaker. Has room to run Sleep Talk as 4th move, since only special STABs and U-Turn are really needed. Rock TOmb-less Breloom is a free switch-in for Yanmega and very few things actually switch into Yanmega after that.

-Zapdos. Why is this bird not OU? Well, this time I don,t need to prove that its viable.


2. Mons that check Breloom even if it has Rock Tomb.


-Gliscor. Not very good to switch into Bullet Seed, but handles every other move. Facade usually 2HKOs.

-Latias. This goes in this section, unlike Latios. Way bulkier and can run defensive sets. Deals very well with Breloom due to being bulky enough to wake up.

-Tangrowth. Totally walls Breloom and kills with Sludge Bomb. Only Sub-Punch Breloom can be a threat, and very minuscule one.

-Sip Sapper Azumarill. Unfortunately, it lost Whirpool, so Breloom is really the only reason to run. Lets go to the next check.

-Cresselia. Bulky enough to wake up and KO with Psychic.

-Exeggutor. Again, Harvest is fun. Its worse that Tropius, but has niche in TR teams. Totally walls Breloom and OHKOs.

-Roserade. Has a niche as Spiker and can be a Pdef one to check both Breloom and the more dangerous Azumarill. Also Clefs without Flamethrower.

-Venusaur. Sun sweeper, bulkier than Victreebel.

-Vileplume. Bulky but slow Grass. Totally destriys Breloom.

-Weezing. Neutralizing Gas makes Poison Heal Breloom die and the Technician one very weak. Its bulky enough to wake up.


Even though most of these Mons are not common, there are enough Mons that are OU by usage alone that deal with Breloom well enough. I say this as someone that both used and faced Breloom lots of times. Also, I haven,t even mentioned yet about Breloom's inhability to come safely into the field and numerous weaknesses that allow for easy revenge killing.
"Spore is annoying, I get it, but its not different from Sleep Powder or Lovely Kiss except for the accuracy." well isn't that a big problem? also breloom can take advantage of spore better than some tangrowth.

not gonna lie i think most of the picks u posted here are NOT that viable outside of beating breloom, if even that. you dug so far down into the pokedex, most of these also lose -25 or even -50 to stealth rocks, for example charizard, moltres, yanmega, shedinja (dies)... also ton of these bad pokemon dont have recovery, they will switch into breloom probably once as it seems you forgot about heavy-duty boots not being a thing in BDSP.

now i will give you props for these:
>victreebel (ill give u this, if you think sun is a consistent playstyle :DD)
>cresselia (very awkward in most teams)
>weezing (only here for breloom and some others, not that fitable into any team)
>tangrowth
>latios/dragonite (can't switching into a spore)
>togekiss
>zapdos
>latias (my main problem with this pokemon is that its not that good honestly)
this is all ill give to you tho, but they can't all switch in safely if you don't have a pokemon asleep already

you really think people should use:
>arcanine (way too much from rocks and no solid recovery)
>ariados (way slower anyway + 102.4 - 120.9% rock tomb)
>drifblim (:D 84.2 - 99% rock tomb from a Jolly Breloom + outsped if you aren't the weak timid drifblim)
>moltres (same as char)
>tropius (what is this foolery)
>vespiqueen ( 89.5 - 105.8% rock tomb max def)
>xatu (also 58 - 68.8% from rock tomb max def)
>sap sipper azumarill (idek)
>exeggutor (wtf)
+ pokemon like venomoth who can probably sludge bomb at the start to get you down to sash, then you die to rock tomb as a retaliation

then better picks that get owned:
>charizard could easily get spored on the switch and rock tombed the following turn + only a sun team mon
>yanmega will get spored on the switch, killed the one after
>gengar dies to 5 bullet seed hits if you switch into it :D

dont make a fool out of yourself. most of these you can go into ONLY if you already have a mon sleeping. some counters i gave you props for are very hard to fit in every team. huge amount of your list are pokemon that will do absolutely nothing against teams without breloom, maybe even ones with breloom. "lol" is all im going to say.


-Gengar. Immune to one STAB, resists the other. Easily takes 3 Bullet Seeds of LO Breloom and up to 5 from LO one. The best thing is that Bullet Seed has more chances to trigger Cursed Body.
(psst, it can trigger mid move but the moves will still come + 0hp gengar dies to 5 bullet seeds
 
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Half of the list I mentioned I specifically said that they wall all variants of Breloom that DON'T have Rock Tomb. I am yet to see a SINGLE BRELOOM THAT USES ROCK TOMB, though I know that it will be more viable in the future.

And yes, many of my Mons are weak to Rocks. A good team will prevent them though. Some of them even Defog themselves (Vespiquen and Moltres for example do that well vs some common Rockers).

Sash Breloom probably is the most useless set, except against HO Teams. And well, HO teams are already dominant enough so its good to have something that punishes them.

dont make a fool out of yourself. most of these you can go into ONLY if you already have a mon sleeping. some counters i gave you props for are very hard to fit in every team. huge amount of your list are pokemon that will do absolutely nothing against teams without breloom, maybe even ones with breloom. "lol" is all im going to say.

I admit that some of my Mons are niche, but there is no need of disrespect if you don,t know how to use or stop some Mons.

Breloom has been in DPP OU, which has the same Mons. And except for Technician, it was stronger back then, since Grass types didn,t block Spore, Overcoat and Magic Bounce didn,t exist, Fairy type (extra Fight resist) didn,t exist, Tangrowth didn,t have Regenerator, Defog didn,t exist (so my Rock weak Mons were worse as checks) and there was no Team Preview to see that a Breloom was coming. Yet, somehow Breloom was never banned that Gen and never suspected. Does that give some clue?
 

su1p

formerly VKadenius
Half of the list I mentioned I specifically said that they wall all variants of Breloom that DON'T have Rock Tomb. I am yet to see a SINGLE BRELOOM THAT USES ROCK TOMB, though I know that it will be more viable in the future.

And yes, many of my Mons are weak to Rocks. A good team will prevent them though. Some of them even Defog themselves (Vespiquen and Moltres for example do that well vs some common Rockers).

Sash Breloom probably is the most useless set, except against HO Teams. And well, HO teams are already dominant enough so its good to have something that punishes them.




I admit that some of my Mons are niche, but there is no need of disrespect if you don,t know how to use or stop some Mons.

Breloom has been in DPP OU, which has the same Mons. And except for Technician, it was stronger back then, since Grass types didn,t block Spore, Overcoat and Magic Bounce didn,t exist, Fairy type (extra Fight resist) didn,t exist, Tangrowth didn,t have Regenerator, Defog didn,t exist (so my Rock weak Mons were worse as checks) and there was no Team Preview to see that a Breloom was coming. Yet, somehow Breloom was never banned that Gen and never suspected. Does that give some clue?
Half of the list I mentioned I specifically said that they wall all variants of Breloom that DON'T have Rock Tomb. I am yet to see a SINGLE BRELOOM THAT USES ROCK TOMB, though I know that it will be more viable in the future.
>i dont care how many rock tombs you have seen, its a 90 base power move on breloom because of technician + lowers speed, its good

And yes, many of my Mons are weak to Rocks. A good team will prevent them though. Some of them even Defog themselves (Vespiquen and Moltres for example do that well vs some common Rockers).
>implying you can always remove hazards for free

Sash Breloom probably is the most useless set, except against HO Teams. And well, HO teams are already dominant enough so its good to have something that punishes them.
>HO has been on the uprise, idk what to say to you.... also sash is not the most useless set, you should try it, subpunch cant do it in every game

I admit that some of my Mons are niche, but there is no need of disrespect if you don,t know how to use or stop some Mons.
>i do know how to deal with them, it just takes so much effort to deal with it unless you want to be a 1100 rating vileplume user
>also sleep seems to be pretty good, wonder why

Yet, somehow Breloom was never banned that Gen and never suspected. Does that give some clue?
>DPP didn't have Hidden Abilities which Technician is and powers up all his moves............
>Rock Tomb was 50bp 80% move. Now it is 90bp 95% acc for Technician + giving -speed is good
>Bullet Seed was 10bp, nowadays being 25bp + Technician boost putting it up to 37 PER HIT 3 hits being way better than seed bomb
>Mach Punch 60bp priority move with Technician
 
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My favorite Breloom answer is defensive Vileplume with Sludge Bomb, Leech Seed, Strength Sap and Sleep Powder. It’s a very annoying anti-meta pick that renders Breloom useless and threatens its own sleep, and weakens/chips its switchins, facilitating set up sweeper teammates. I tend to like Leech Seed for stuff like Blissey, Heatran, Gliscor, Shedninja, Dragons etc switchins, but you could also do Giga Drain there.

Vileplume’s fast sleep is also brutal in Trick Room (the archetype tends to struggle against Breloom) and it also beats Azurmarril 1v1.
 

su1p

formerly VKadenius
Half of the list I mentioned I specifically said that they wall all variants of Breloom that DON'T have Rock Tomb. I am yet to see a SINGLE BRELOOM THAT USES ROCK TOMB, though I know that it will be more viable in the future.
>i dont care how many rock tombs you have seen, its a 90 base power move on breloom because of technician + lowers speed, its good

And yes, many of my Mons are weak to Rocks. A good team will prevent them though. Some of them even Defog themselves (Vespiquen and Moltres for example do that well vs some common Rockers).
>implying you can always remove hazards for free

Sash Breloom probably is the most useless set, except against HO Teams. And well, HO teams are already dominant enough so its good to have something that punishes them.
>HO has been on the uprise, idk what to say to you.... also sash is not the most useless set, you should try it, subpunch cant do it in every game

I admit that some of my Mons are niche, but there is no need of disrespect if you don,t know how to use or stop some Mons.
>i do know how to deal with them, it just takes so much effort to deal with it unless you want to be a 1100 rating vileplume user
>also sleep seems to be pretty good, wonder why

Yet, somehow Breloom was never banned that Gen and never suspected. Does that give some clue?
>DPP didn't have Hidden Abilities which Technician is and powers up all his moves............
>Rock Tomb was 50bp 80% move. Now it is 90bp 95% acc for Technician + giving -speed is good
>Bullet Seed was 10bp, nowadays being 25bp + Technician boost putting it up to 37 PER HIT 3 hits being way better than seed bomb
>Mach Punch 60bp priority move with Technician
forgot also that celebi doesn't exist in bdsp lol, was epic counter to breloom in dpp. my last post sorry
 
sableye.png



I wanna talk about Sableye and why I think it's one of the best spin blockers in the game especially for stall teams.

1: It's one of 2 ghost types in the tier that is immune to the psychic spam that dominates a lot of the meta right now, alongside its immunity to fighting.

2: it's got decent bulk, not anything super impressive but enough to take a hit from every single spinner in the tier.

3. It's got stab knock off alongside reliable recovery, meaning it's one of the few spinblockers in the tier too not lose to Stymie.

4: And most importantly Prankster. This turns this mon from a niche pick into IMO the best spin blocker in the tier for bulky/stall teams. Priority taunt means it can block every single defog attempt (except for like Murkrow) without worrying about speed and in return invest more heavily into bulk.

Priority willo-wisp + Recover means it's beats Donphan 1 vs 1 all day long as a burned Donphan can't touch him. It also allows it to check pretty much every non fire or dark physical attacker in the tier. Since priority Willo + Recover + Knock off equals them being crippled horrendously.

I seriously reccomend everyone give it a try.
 
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View attachment 389850


I wanna talk about Sableye and why I think it's one of the best spin blockers in the game especially for stall teams.

1: It's one of 2 ghost types in the tier that is immune to the psychic spam that dominates a lot of the meta right now, alongside its immunity to fighting.

2: it's got decent bulk, not anything super impressive but enough to take a hit from every single spinner in the tier.

3. It's got stab knock off alongside reliable recovery, meaning it's one of the few spinblockers in the tier too not lose to Stymie.

4: And most importantly Prankster. This turns this mon from a niche pick into IMO the best spin blocker in the tier for bulky/stall teams. Priority taunt means it can block every single defog attempt (except for like Murkrow) without worrying about speed and in return invest more heavily into bulk.

Priority willo-wisp + Recover means it's beats Donphan 1 vs 1 all day long as a burned Donphan can't touch him. It also allows it to check pretty much every non fire or dark physical attacker in the tier. Since priority Willo + Recover + Knock off equals them being crippled horrendously.

I seriously reccomend everyone give it a try.

Nice post, but there is one little exageration there. Sableye is viable and beats Donphan while blocking Defog with Taunt. However, it won,t beat offensive Starmie unfortunately:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 239-282 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Pdef (which IMO is best set) it gets even worse:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 359-422 (118 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If somehow, Sableye avoids Analytic Hydro while entering, it still looks dire:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 274-325 (90.1 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Even without LO, offensive Starmie is just too strong:

252 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 211-250 (69.4 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive one is better, but Sableye still takes too much damage:

0 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


I am not saying Sableye is bad, I am just saying its impossible to reliably spinblock offensive Starmie without Shedinja. This is the closest you can get with another ghost:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Spiritomb: 173-204 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Spiritomb: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fortunately, as not very bulky LO user, Starmie has to predict a lot. This means you can still use a Spike Stack team and not lose against the star. Still, Sableye will work against other Spinners, but not against offensive Starmie, its not a job for him.
 
Nice post, but there is one little exageration there. Sableye is viable and beats Donphan while blocking Defog with Taunt. However, it won,t beat offensive Starmie unfortunately:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 239-282 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Pdef (which IMO is best set) it gets even worse:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 359-422 (118 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If somehow, Sableye avoids Analytic Hydro while entering, it still looks dire:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 274-325 (90.1 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Even without LO, offensive Starmie is just too strong:

252 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 211-250 (69.4 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive one is better, but Sableye still takes too much damage:

0 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


I am not saying Sableye is bad, I am just saying its impossible to reliably spinblock offensive Starmie without Shedinja. This is the closest you can get with another ghost:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Spiritomb: 173-204 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Spiritomb: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fortunately, as not very bulky LO user, Starmie has to predict a lot. This means you can still use a Spike Stack team and not lose against the star. Still, Sableye will work against other Spinners, but not against offensive Starmie, its not a job for him.
Fair enough. I guess I just haven't really run into Offensive Starmie that much (or I have but they've always been running Surf or Scald instead of H-Pump).

This just further justifies my opinion that Starmie is the best pokemon in the tier (or at least 2nd best after Scizor).
 
I have an explanation for why Shaymin-S is not always auto-banned and is less broken than other Ubers.

Thing is, by Stats and movepool alone, Shaymin-S is not broken. Even if it has Earth Power, many Steels wall it, many fire types can take an attack and OHKO, CM Blissey in theory would beat even Sub Seed variants. Ice Type RK easily, Ditto RKs easily, Dragonite just uses DD and OHKOs.

Enter Serene Grace and suddenly, all checks are invalidated by flinches and Sdef Drops. Without Serene Grace Shaymin-S is just a regular special attacker, not very different from Latios, Gengar, Alakazam or Starmie. Yes, it's faster than some of them, but the power level is similar and it even doesn't have Nasty Plot or CM. With Serene Grace through that doesn't matter and it becomes obviously broken.

But the difference with other Ubers is that Serene Grace doesn't always work, at least in theory. I will put some examples:
-Kyogre has Drizzle and powerful moves. It always has Drizzle and powerful moves, so it obliterates everything except the few checks it has. OU Metagame can adapt to Kyogre, but it has to do it by running several of the few checks Kyogre has.
-Mewtwo has high speed, NP and powerful moves. The moves he chooses always work and the checks are very few. OU can adapt to Mewtwo, but has to run the few checks it has often, such as Spiritomb.

-Shaymin-S is different. At least in theory, Serene Grace doesn't always work. In theory, Shaymin-S has many checks that will always check it, as long as Serene Grace doesn't work. OU is naturally adapted to Shaymin-S when Serene Grace doesn't work, it has many checks and counters. It ends up being banned when Smogon sees that Serene Grace is still too much on such a fast Mon, but it's not the same level of broken like other Ubers, because, at least in theory, Shaymin-S is unreliable and has many checks.

Hopefully I have explained it well enough.
Excellent points, I must say. If I may weigh in, though, Sky Shaymin is in a speed tier that most mons cannot hope to pass without boosts (388); off the top of my head, considering the Pokedex being limited to generations 1 through 4, the only ones I can think of that do outspeed it without boosts are Crobat and Aerodactyl. It's not enough for it to have checks in theory; those checks need to actually work in games. As things are, I foresee Choice Scarves being needed to deal with it. Or a quickban.
 
Excellent points, I must say. If I may weigh in, though, Sky Shaymin is in a speed tier that most mons cannot hope to pass without boosts (388); off the top of my head, considering the Pokedex being limited to generations 1 through 4, the only ones I can think of that do outspeed it without boosts are Crobat and Aerodactyl. It's not enough for it to have checks in theory; those checks need to actually work in games. As things are, I foresee Choice Scarves being needed to deal with it. Or a quickban.
I mean vs shaymin sky defensively it isn't that bad, because its only strong move is seed flare, losing air slash and earth power really sucks. Sure seed flare with sp def drops hits very hard. But the problem is it only has 8 pp and grass resists are very common. I doubt it would be broken because of this.
 
It did not lose Air Slash though. Steels will wall it, but after Seed Flare drops they will be flinched to death. Registeel is an exception to this due to Clear Body, but he is very passive and will eventually be defeated by Sub Seed thanks to the flinches.

I would like Shaymin-S to be in a meta (I like all kind of cheese, hax and match-up reliant Strats like Baton Pass or Moody, so I am almost always in the anti-ban side when a Suspect comes), but I still think this would be too much for OU. Especially for a generally weaker OU than the SS one.
 
Just checked and looks that you are right. Someone did post an image that contained Air Slash though...

If it did lose it, though, I don,t see Shaymin-S broken at all, since any Steel just walls.
 

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