Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread

i'm not reading all that, but i'm happy for you, or sorry that happened.

On the real though, this post is complete nonsense, Gliscor has plenty of checks in this current metagame be they offensive or defensive with something like Slowbro which does not mind being knocked off or turned on or anything like that because those hits just bounce off it. Most, if not all the coverage options you said it could run are utter dogshit too because they just don't fit or have a horrible use case. Also the wall of calcs you posted are literally irrelevant anyway because Gliscor doesn't do much of anything back to the respective attackers and, in fact, opts to switch out versus nearly all of them because getting that low is some sub-optimal game planning on your end (And also some of these calcs just straight up show that with rocks or any form of chip beforehand, Gliscor just dies) Additionally, these spreads you're posting simply don't exist? I don't really know what else to tell you other than to just get more experience before jumping on the ''Ban Gliscor'' train in what is arguably Gliscor's weakest fairy-gen tier. Yes, it's a great mon. Yes it can be threatening given the right set-up. But this does not make it overcentralizing, nor broken.

Also the minisprites really threw the readability of this post in the trash, god damn.

Edit: I didn't actually read the post that deep but what on earth are the sets you proposed in your Swords Dance section? I touched upon this earlier but I didn't know that it was that bad, you're already forfeiting your EVs to achieve something quite pointless then you add Steel Wing on a Gliscor to hit what, Clefable? Where even if you get +2, Max Attack Swing does like...50-65%??? Like, I read adem's response here about how you were reaching but lord were you reaching with these statements. I couldn't actually sit down and digest the information you were spouting because of the 90% Fluff/Dex info and careless use of minisprites in literally every sentence, so actually reading this without mindlessly scanning made me even more confused. Like, come on, posts like these start 3-page long tirades that have 0 substance, 0 metagame development, or even 0 meaningful discussion. Your ''proper'' conclusion probably should not leave the testing labs.
i'm not reading all that, but i'm happy for you, or sorry that happened.

On the real though, this post is complete nonsense, Gliscor has plenty of checks in this current metagame be they offensive or defensive with something like Slowbro which does not mind being knocked off or turned on or anything like that because those hits just bounce off it. Most, if not all the coverage options you said it could run are utter dogshit too because they just don't fit or have a horrible use case. Also the wall of calcs you posted are literally irrelevant anyway because Gliscor doesn't do much of anything back to the respective attackers and, in fact, opts to switch out versus nearly all of them because getting that low is some sub-optimal game planning on your end (And also some of these calcs just straight up show that with rocks or any form of chip beforehand, Gliscor just dies) Additionally, these spreads you're posting simply don't exist? I don't really know what else to tell you other than to just get more experience before jumping on the ''Ban Gliscor'' train in what is arguably Gliscor's weakest fairy-gen tier. Yes, it's a great mon. Yes it can be threatening given the right set-up. But this does not make it overcentralizing, nor broken.

Also the minisprites really threw the readability of this post in the trash, god damn.

Edit: I didn't actually read the post that deep but what on earth are the sets you proposed in your Swords Dance section? I touched upon this earlier but I didn't know that it was that bad, you're already forfeiting your EVs to achieve something quite pointless then you add Steel Wing on a Gliscor to hit what, Clefable? Where even if you get +2, Max Attack Swing does like...50-65%??? Like, I read adem's response here about how you were reaching but lord were you reaching with these statements. I couldn't actually sit down and digest the information you were spouting because of the 90% Fluff/Dex info and careless use of minisprites in literally every sentence, so actually reading this without mindlessly scanning made me even more confused. Like, come on, posts like these start 3-page long tirades that have 0 substance, 0 metagame development, or even 0 meaningful discussion. Your ''proper'' conclusion probably should not leave the testing labs.
1. Fundamentally how can you criticize something without knowing its contents? You can watch a game you didn't buy but how do you know what's in the post without reading?

2. Slowbro actually did get mentioned as a reliable answer and if that makes you not see that problem refer to the opening statement, U-turn, Overcentralizing, and Unhealthy

3. Whether the coverage is good now or not is irrelevant as this is meant to account for the inevitable adaptations of the metagame (although even trying to do this is admittedly absurd as you would have to be a complete anti-grass toucher to even consider it) and Gliscor's ability to lure its extremely limited "checks" can not be ignored.

4. Gliscor does do something back this isn't even complex see: Knock Off, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, and the Coverage, and Unhealthy.

5. Obviously switching out of the only thing that actually threaten you is the better play. This point is meant to illustrate that Gliscor can get away with even its worst case scenario allowing for a drastic change to the information side of the game (you may think you scare out Gliscor with Rotom Wash but if its sp def it fears only specs or modest a piece of information the Gliscor player has but the player attempting to break Gliscor does not so have fun Volt Switching into the ground type).

6. Spreads may not exist now but they will if the metagame demands it that's how adaptation works. (Also no they aren't? Gliscor already runs both its max defensive spreads physical making you much safer against Lucario special letting you sit on Rotom and all the other thing having a bulky Gliscor can do.)

7. Didn't account for rocks because unless you OHKO they do not do anything to Gliscor and turning rocks on and off wile considering the likelihood of some maniac actively switch Gliscor in on these attacks was to much to account for. TLDR: If its a roll assume its and OHKO with rocks even if sometimes its not.

8. Actually a fairly solid point but mini sprites where (ironically) meant to help find certain points about certain aspects of Gliscor for people who didn't want to read all 6585 words but where still curious about something or other. And trust me if you think the mini sprites are unreadable you should have seen the originally wall of text I wrote the damn thing and I couldn't find what I was looking for.

As for why I didn't just format the text to be easily readable not only would this balloon the already absurd size of the post if every semi rant was in like proper essay structure but there's a limit to what I as a human can physically do in 1 day if everyone's ok with the ballooning size I'll likely reformat it over time

9. While I can agree to disagree about Gliscor being overcentralizing I would like to hear why you think that instead of a simple assertion with no elaboration.

As for it not being broken I'll chock this up to the post being incomplete and the statement being misinterpreted as traditional brokenness the way something like Gengar is broken although I implore you to read the Broken section to understand why Gliscor is uniquely broken.

10. I didn't want to do this considering its meaningless as someone can understand the game without being good at it but thinking long term this will be easier to refer to if "just get good" comes up again
Screenshot (27).png
(for reference ELO VAULT is my ALT and both were top 10 yesterday but you know I had to write instead of play)

11. Haven't read adems post yet but that will be addressed there, the "Fluff Dex" is all behind spoiler tags so just ignore them if you really want to,
and again elaborate. You can sling as much mud as you want if you can't explain why your assertion is actually true it means nothing. (Note: I'm not asking for a reply manifesto just some reasoning instead of empty insults)
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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This Gliscor conversation is going nowhere. We do not need 7 different posts telling someone that they're wrong in increasingly snarky ways, and any more posts like this will be infracted. Be civil.

Gliscor is not on the council's radar as a problem at the moment and is unlikely to be in the future unless something big changes. While we respect everyone's takes on the metagame, please do not discuss a Gliscor ban or suspect test any further, as it is not happening.
 
I had a good time trying scarf Infernape myself. I havent really had a chance to use Infernape in ND OU since I was trying to jump on the ladder as well. Now that BD/SP released, I used it in story and tried it in BDSP OU and this monkey went on a massacre. It was like a steam roller, killing everything in its path.

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch
- Fire Punch
 

Lalaya

Banned deucer.
This Gliscor conversation is going nowhere. We do not need 7 different posts telling someone that they're wrong in increasingly snarky ways, and any more posts like this will be infracted. Be civil.

Gliscor is not on the council's radar as a problem at the moment and is unlikely to be in the future unless something big changes. While we respect everyone's takes on the metagame, please do not discuss a Gliscor ban or suspect test any further, as it is not happening.
Sure there's a lot of reading comprension in here

but anyway, can we talk how Gengar is fucking borked here? :blobpensive:
 

AM

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Not saying any more on the topic but its crazy how attempted serious discussion and critique of community response is removed but sassy one liners are still permitted and getting authority support
Nobody wants to read a post with a bunch of sprites in them, with the exception of sprites showcasing a team in a pokepaste link. They're very cringe and it's a big turnoff for readers. I don't want to seem like I'm just adding to the dogpiling cause I do believe it wasn't that necessary but frankly the post had a lot of quantity > quality with the sprites, theorymon calcs, and wordy just to be wordy. It just wasn't a good post no matter how long you took to make it. You would've got the same, if not better results, from just making one paragraph about it without the sprites. As someone who has been around for awhile, probably more than some of the people who responded to you, hopefully this post helps you make more concise posts as I've gotten similar advice when I started off and it helped a lot. Less is more a lot of times here.
 
I had a good time trying scarf Infernape myself. I havent really had a chance to use Infernape in ND OU since I was trying to jump on the ladder as well. Now that BD/SP released, I used it in story and tried it in BDSP OU and this monkey went on a massacre. It was like a steam roller, killing everything in its path.

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch
- Fire Punch
Scarf infernape is a solid revenge killer due to the fact it out speeds the numerous fast psychics like starmie, laties and alakazam, but I feel if you're gonna be scarf, you should run thunder punch instead of mach punch. The extra coverage is better for water types (especially gyarados and slowbro who wall it without tp) and a priority move isn't super necessary for a scarfer. Mach punch would probably be better for a choice band set, which is still a viable choice in my opinion.
 
:bw/latias: Can we pretend that the draco meteors in the night sky are like shooting stars? :bw/latias:
:bw/feraligatr: I could use healing wish right now, healing wish right now, healing wish right now. :bw/feraligatr:

(Optional) comically overly long introduction:

"Don't talk to strangers." Your mom always says. You're currently a 16 year old... Who does she think she is? You're responsible enough to tackle the world. She's just always on your case... So you flee from home. You find yourself strolling about in the dark, everyone's asleep, doesn't it feel great to have the world to yourself?

Eventually... You stumble across a shady looking person. He challenges you to a Pokémon battle in Smogon's Brilliant Diamond Shining Pearl OverUsed format... You try to decline, he insists. You try to run away, he prevents you. So you instead accept hesitantly, surely you can pull through and win. Meanwhile, your parents are on their Staraptors looking around everywhere for you, as they use their Flash butterfrees to light up the place.

He has a Latias and a Feraligatr, this should be easy: You burn his Feraligatr but Rotom takes a heavy blow... But at least it won't be a big deal right?
Latias goes in on Scizor. "Why is it staying in? Does he not know that I can simply defog his Stealth rocks away? Or worse, I could U-turn it to kill it." You ask yourself... Latias starts to hum a certain melody, you stand still in shock as you see it faint right before you. You didn't even do anything! Scizor's defog has no target and so it fails. Feraligatr goes in, it's at 25% and it's burned... Yet it stares at you with a smug look. A certain energy surrounds it... You and your Scizor are in disbelief. "It's healthy again??? Not even burned? But how?" You ask yourself. The shady man scoffs, then reveals his true identity as he takes off his hood: Oh my god, it can't be! It's the lack of fucking good Water resists in the tier!

You fall on the floor, your Scizor shaking as Feraligatr dragon dances... Your team can't take it anymore. You shout forfeiting begging him to let you go. He walks up to you. You're scared. He's right infront of you.
He bends over to you, and then asks... "Hey kid... Want a Feraligatr + Healing wish Latias team?"
You hesitate, thoughts speeding by one by one in your brain.
"Mom warned me this would happen. She wouldn't want me to get addicted to such a core... But it's so broken... It overwhelms all of Feraligatr's checks because you literally essentially have two..." All these thoughts start to overwhelm you, irrationally accepting and getting the paste. You paste it into the builder... You ladder with it... It felt so good, but it's so wrong. It's cheap, but it's effective.

You spent all day laddering, winstreak so high you could vote for Manaphy to get banned 6 times. Your parents finally find you.
"Sweetie, are you hurt?" Your mom asks, as you turn around to face her... She screams of terror with tears in her eyes as she looks at your builder.

Actual post:

I believe Lalaya already analyzed the Usage stats when they came out at the start of January, I was also shocked about Feraligatr's usage. Not just that, Latias' too: They deserved much higher usage, and I'll demonstrate why as I discuss what I think is a very powerful core.

:bw/feraligatr:

The funny (Feraligatr) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Punch / Blizzard :)
- Dragon Dance

:bw/Latias:

HELICOPTER HELICOPTER (Latias) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Defog / Ice beam / Thunderbolt
- Healing Wish

This is obviously an offensive core, it abuses the lack of good water resists in our tier. Feraligatr is a monster, nothing to discuss, its coverage hits nearly everything at least neutrally. Unlike other waters, it cannot even be walled by the niche Shedinja! But Shedinja can burn you, and on the topic of that: Let's get into what the idea of this core is.
Throughout a game Feraligatr will need to have chip done to its checks like Rotom-Wash to dent the opponent, Scarf volt switch, Will-O-Wisp or even discharge can force you out or make you borderline useless if you do not score the KO. But what if you just essentially had two? This is where Latias comes in: As a naturally potent scarfer with strong stabs and good support in the form of emergency Defogs to boot. Healing wish only makes it better as it essentially revives what would otherwise be death fodder for a clean switch, this is made even better as the target will only take hazards before healing up to full. This allows feraligatr to go absolutely nuts again as there's just not a lot of room for error when you're playing up against an angry alligator.
Healing wish is also very excellent in the form of potential emergency defensive counterplay, and flexibility as it allows you to heal up any teammate of your choice depending on who you know would win you the game.
This team is also not deadweight defensively, Latias naturally checks a lot of Pokémon like Rotom-Wash, Breloom etc. and scarf allows it to outpace dangerous Pokémon like Alakazam, +1 opposing Feraligatr and Gengar. All the while Feraligatr can pivot into some Ice moves and threaten to set up.
Combined with U-turns and/or Volt switches this core exerts insane offensive pressure on nearly the entire meta.
There's really not much else to be said I think? Essentially having two angry alligators is self-explanatorily stupid. I will provide a team for you to try it out. I think these two together are VERY strong.
Importable Poképaste: https://pokepast.es/52fc7212ac61c23a
 
:bw/latias: Can we pretend that the draco meteors in the night sky are like shooting stars? :bw/latias:
:bw/feraligatr: I could use healing wish right now, healing wish right now, healing wish right now. :bw/feraligatr:

(Optional) comically overly long introduction:

"Don't talk to strangers." Your mom always says. You're currently a 16 year old... Who does she think she is? You're responsible enough to tackle the world. She's just always on your case... So you flee from home. You find yourself strolling about in the dark, everyone's asleep, doesn't it feel great to have the world to yourself?

Eventually... You stumble across a shady looking person. He challenges you to a Pokémon battle in Smogon's Brilliant Diamond Shining Pearl OverUsed format... You try to decline, he insists. You try to run away, he prevents you. So you instead accept hesitantly, surely you can pull through and win. Meanwhile, your parents are on their Staraptors looking around everywhere for you, as they use their Flash butterfrees to light up the place.

He has a Latias and a Feraligatr, this should be easy: You burn his Feraligatr but Rotom takes a heavy blow... But at least it won't be a big deal right?
Latias goes in on Scizor. "Why is it staying in? Does he not know that I can simply defog his Stealth rocks away? Or worse, I could U-turn it to kill it." You ask yourself... Latias starts to hum a certain melody, you stand still in shock as you see it faint right before you. You didn't even do anything! Scizor's defog has no target and so it fails. Feraligatr goes in, it's at 25% and it's burned... Yet it stares at you with a smug look. A certain energy surrounds it... You and your Scizor are in disbelief. "It's healthy again??? Not even burned? But how?" You ask yourself. The shady man scoffs, then reveals his true identity as he takes off his hood: Oh my god, it can't be! It's the lack of fucking good Water resists in the tier!

You fall on the floor, your Scizor shaking as Feraligatr dragon dances... Your team can't take it anymore. You shout forfeiting begging him to let you go. He walks up to you. You're scared. He's right infront of you.
He bends over to you, and then asks... "Hey kid... Want a Feraligatr + Healing wish Latias team?"
You hesitate, thoughts speeding by one by one in your brain.
"Mom warned me this would happen. She wouldn't want me to get addicted to such a core... But it's so broken... It overwhelms all of Feraligatr's checks because you literally essentially have two..." All these thoughts start to overwhelm you, irrationally accepting and getting the paste. You paste it into the builder... You ladder with it... It felt so good, but it's so wrong. It's cheap, but it's effective.

You spent all day laddering, winstreak so high you could vote for Manaphy to get banned 6 times. Your parents finally find you.
"Sweetie, are you hurt?" Your mom asks, as you turn around to face her... She screams of terror with tears in her eyes as she looks at your builder.

Actual post:

I believe Lalaya already analyzed the Usage stats when they came out at the start of January, I was also shocked about Feraligatr's usage. Not just that, Latias' too: They deserved much higher usage, and I'll demonstrate why as I discuss what I think is a very powerful core.

:bw/feraligatr:

The funny (Feraligatr) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Ice Punch / Blizzard :)
- Dragon Dance

:bw/Latias:

HELICOPTER HELICOPTER (Latias) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Defog / Ice beam / Thunderbolt
- Healing Wish

This is obviously an offensive core, it abuses the lack of good water resists in our tier. Feraligatr is a monster, nothing to discuss, its coverage hits nearly everything at least neutrally. Unlike other waters, it cannot even be walled by the niche Shedinja! But Shedinja can burn you, and on the topic of that: Let's get into what the idea of this core is.
Throughout a game Feraligatr will need to have chip done to its checks like Rotom-Wash to dent the opponent, Scarf volt switch, Will-O-Wisp or even discharge can force you out or make you borderline useless if you do not score the KO. But what if you just essentially had two? This is where Latias comes in: As a naturally potent scarfer with strong stabs and good support in the form of emergency Defogs to boot. Healing wish only makes it better as it essentially revives what would otherwise be death fodder for a clean switch, this is made even better as the target will only take hazards before healing up to full. This allows feraligatr to go absolutely nuts again as there's just not a lot of room for error when you're playing up against an angry alligator.
Healing wish is also very excellent in the form of potential emergency defensive counterplay, and flexibility as it allows you to heal up any teammate of your choice depending on who you know would win you the game.
This team is also not deadweight defensively, Latias naturally checks a lot of Pokémon like Rotom-Wash, Breloom etc. and scarf allows it to outpace dangerous Pokémon like Alakazam, +1 opposing Feraligatr and Gengar. All the while Feraligatr can pivot into some Ice moves and threaten to set up.
Combined with U-turns and/or Volt switches this core exerts insane offensive pressure on nearly the entire meta.
There's really not much else to be said I think? Essentially having two angry alligators is self-explanatorily stupid. I will provide a team for you to try it out. I think these two together are VERY strong.
Importable Poképaste: https://pokepast.es/52fc7212ac61c23a
Add wacan berry manaphy to this core for extra cheese
 

AM

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Haven't really agreed with all the tiering in this format by the council and how they've handled certain suspects but I support any quickban of Gengar and other problematic elements or semi-problematic elements to stabilize metagame and test back down when necessary, at least prior to whatever Home provides if anything. Eve said to post here so, here I am, and the passive aggressiveness from the posts in the Manaphy thread I'm not here for anyways.
 
Overflowing from the suspect thread to here to give my thoughts on the (likely) upcoming Gengar quickban. While I do sympathize with the folks not wanting to quickban something after the early stages of the tier and other mons before it were given proper suspect tests, I think Gengar is worthy of a quickban at this stage of development for a multitude of reasons.
1642952039604.png

The meta has been forced into a vicegrip by Gar due to it's absurdity both in the builder and in the battle. Plot runs over everything pretty without recourse; Blissey is quite litterally the only thing that can reliably stave off most varriants (but even that can lose after a Plot). Neither of the unaware mon (Clef and Quag) can reliably switch in and stob it. It's 110 base speed makes it very difficult to revenge kill, limiting the pool to certain scarfers, Starmie, Azelf, Zam and Weavile - or risking a speed tie with Latios. On top of that it's a potent scarfer in of itself, making all these options for revenging it risky until the set is scouted out. It's also got some nasty set diversification: from sub+plot to abuse passive walls or the switches it often forces to ensure saftey from revenge killing or setting up, sash to survive a revenge killing attempt, specs for immediate power, to wisp+hex to cripple threats and absolutely despimate anything that isn't immune. For example, Hex also nukes the typically ol' reliable sp.def Gliscor from being able to potentially pivot into it predicting a shadow ball, to being trucked by Gar's suprise coverage.

The limited metagame's dirth of good dark and normals along with reverse powercreep in the form of more powerful future mons that have helped keep it in check locked away, and especially the loss of Pursuit have left options for building teambuilding for Gar extremely difficult; forcing most teams to slap on a Blissey and hope for the best. And even Blissey, as mentioned earlier, struggles against the plot set.
+2 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 402-474 (56.3 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
When we've reached the point where people are having to run max sp.def Bliss in order to keep a certain mon in check, there's a very obvious problem here.

Now there are alternatives to building without Blissey to try and switch into Gar, but they are very few and far in between and have a certain recurrance among them... it'll become apparent in a sec.
1642951796743.png

Ttar is the only bulky dark type in OU by usage and it folds to Focus Blast. Even without a plot Lo Gar ko's Max sp.def varriants most of the time after chip, be it rocks or more than likely switching into Gar's Shadow Ball or Sludge Bomb.
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 252-300 (62.3 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 328-390 (81.1 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And if after a plot, lights out unless you're chople (which some are now being forced to run because of it).

As far as lower tier options that have been seeing usage in response to Gar, there are a select few that have seen enough experimentation to be mentioned.
1642951542234.png

Snorlax is probably the one I've seen the most of in the past few weeks, finding a home on bulky offense squads and some varriants of stall. It's the best alternative to Blis available, having it's own sets of pros and cons going for it to justify a teamslot. However it's far more susceptible than Blis to being worn down due to being reliant on either Recycle or Rest respectively. Not to mention that it still does not fair well against Gar's FB.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 458-541 (87.4 - 103.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 264-312 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
1642951562958.png

Umbreon has seen some use as well for being the next bulkiest dark available, and it does fair well against unboosted gar as well as other big threats tearing up the meta in Zam and Lati. However it's in the same boat as lax in terms of how it fairs dealing with FB.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 408-481 (103.5 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO, no rocks or prior chip needed.
I also hate how this thing lets everyone's favorite staple Scizor in for a free u-turn, even with zone support when I built with this it was not fun :/
1642951585563.png

Drapion has found some leeway on a few offense and stall squads as a a t-spiker with defensive utlity of switching into gar's stabs and not being hit for super effective by FB. Despite that though... yea...
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 294-347 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO, 87.5% chance after rocks

Caught on yet? The combination of Plot, it's stabs, and Focus Blast is near unwallable - a set that is unreplicable outside of Alakazam. And while I know some folks also want Zam gone it has a few more flows that continue to hold it back, for the time being. It's speed tier makes revenging it a difficult task to a very limited pool of mons - on top of a risky given gar's ability to run scarf itself or a sash to live a hit. Game's are being decided often now by whether Gar lands it's Focus Blasts, and having your only answer to Gar being "I need Focus Blast to miss on my one answer to it or I lose" isn't good.

Gengar is, by far, the biggest factor in what is keeping balance from being a viable playstyle. A meta where every team is either forced to have a Blissey, one of the few very specific mon that can hold off gar for a time, or raw hyper offense to try and outpace it all lead to no breathing room for balance. Removing Gar from the tier would majorly diversify building, finally freeing everyone from having to run the blob which would give balance it's chance to become a legitimate playstyle.

In most case I'm against quickbans after the early onset of the generation, especially after a few suspects in. But with Gar, it's a rare example of being necessary. Unlike Manaphy or Latios where there has been enough dispute to warrant a suspect and put it up to a vote - Gar is overwhelmingly hated by the majority top players. And with removing this from the tier asap, we can hopefully begin to see change and how the meta adapts once this giant constraint is gone. This will also give the meta more immediate time to adapt following whatever result the Mana test concludes and begin to reassess Latios' influence on the meta.

TLDR; While I'm usually against quickbans Gengar has solid grounds for one and it would greatly benefit the tier given it's stranglehold on the meta, both in the builder and the battle.
 
Last edited:

Lumari

empty spaces
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Hey, since this is where Gengar discussion goes I figured I'd dump a team here that has been fun to use on ladder. ausma and I built it a while ago during the Latios test iirc when I got cranky about autolosing to Hex Gengar with a different team after it smoked Gliscor. "screw it let's build tspikes + hexgar lol" eventually turned into this:

Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Icicle Spear
- Explosion

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Sludge Bomb

Weavile @ Never-Melt Ice
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Throat Chop
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard

Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Flash Cannon
- Charge Beam

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpD
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Roost


This is probably a little jank since let's leave it at there's a reason I'm not seen in metagame forums (and yes the lack of an EQ immune is annoying sometimes), but it's still very fun to use and there's also a few sets that warrant some more discussion, specifically the Gengar set (obviously) and another two that I don't thiiiiink? have seen much talk yet.

:ss/cloyster:
Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Icicle Spear
- Explosion

Other half of the "tspikes + hexgar" core that won out because it could compress Rapid Spin in the same slot and would be good at bluffing a Shell Smash set. Explosion could've been Smash maybe too I guess; the idea behind it was to maintain momentum on Water- or Steel-types coming in to try and wall Cloyster, which I'm not sure ended up working out exactly like that in practice, but the momentum point obviously holds either way, and it's also a good panic button against things this team naturally has trouble handling like brave SD Infernapes as well as just a generally good way to maintain offensive pressure. Most fun use though is probably using a Rapid Spin Speed boost to blow up Starmie as it's coming in to spin away TSpikes. Rapid Spin's boost also makes Cloyster a pretty good anti-lead against a lot of opposing suicide hazard leads (e.g. Azelf pretty much always loses, the odd Aerodactyl similar though Rock Tomb makes it a bit trickier), and obviously 125BP Icicle Spear + Sash also makes for some strong immediate pressure. Skill Link did use to be Overcoat for a couple battles because Breloom is an annoying coinflip and Smeargle... exists, but Spear needs too many hits to KO for it to really help against Breloom, and Smeargle need so many turns to do its thing that you usually wake up in time anyways.

:ss/gengar:

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Sludge Bomb

Absolutely insane set btw; what surprised me most is how much more mileage I got out of WoW in practice than out of Tspikes. That slot used to be NP at first because theoretically haha +2 Hex into poisoned foes go brrrrr, but in practice Toxic Spikes wasn't consistent enough for that and Wisp was super good at neutering stuff like Scizor that naturally switches into Gengar a lot and made for a more consistent way to power up Hex. Obviously it doesn't really like chip, but the number of free turns it forces with Substitute still makes it surprisingly resilient to this, not to mention everyone knows anyways how much damage an unexpected Sub can do; this thing has beaten Weavile and Garchomp switch-ins one-on-one. Idk which one of Focus Blast or Sludge Bomb is strictly better here btw, but this team doesn't really mind most worthwhile Focus Blast targets too much in the first place while the coverage on Clefable / Breloom / Tangrowth + consistent immediate power is very welcome, and any reason not to have to run Focus Blast is good for me obv.

:ss/magnezone:

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Flash Cannon
- Charge Beam

This set is actually super fun; Sub + Protect made sense with TSpikes for self-explanatory reasons (always fun checkmating a Garchomp with a 4x Ground weak) and I kind of just slapped on Charge Beam after, which ended up working nicely. It's a bit of a weird Magnezone in that it's kind of a waste against Defog / SD Scizor and can mostly just get a free Sub out of them, but those are easy enough to handle anyways (especially if Gengar burns them at some point), and it makes up for that by eating certain Choiced Steel-types alive. Losing something to CB Scizor's BP basically guarantees at least two KOs in retaliation if played well, and the same goes for opposing Magnezone locked into Flash Cannon (252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 58-69 (19.2 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO), which also takes a lot of pressure off having to predict around it with Garchomp.

Anyways, I just wanted to get this post out real quick, looking forward to having fun with some other stuff as the meta develops further.
 

Lalaya

Banned deucer.
Let us suspect and vote.

2 hit ko is common in this meta?

I can think of a lot of mons 2 hit KO by entei sacred fire, weavile crash, mamo quake.

Why is this instance the issue?
because you said they can beat him where scizor can barely 2hko it with bp lol
and gliscor instantly dies from hex anyway
point is that you have to guess what gengar set you're facing for once, and then actually beat him without sacking half your team
not to mention not even craw's jet can KO it so you usually need a scarfer, or prior chip, in order to end it (or two pokemon)
and if its sub you also waste your defensive counterplay on it
yes, orb mamo can also 2HKO most things but do I really have to pinpoint the difference between a base 80 that is weak to two priorities and subjected to all of them + scarfer play or just the sheer amount of mons that outspeed it, or common mons with yache vs a pokemon with 110 speed, that can boost, throw a potential 120 STAB off, immune to two priorities and takes normal damage by bpunch/jet/shard (one of which is also needless to throw since its from weavile, so honestly there's only scizor, azuma/craw and mamo who can throw off a priority on it)
(also implying Weavile's Crash is as uncheckable as Gengar pretty much tells me you have no meta awareness)
 
Let us vote.

You have your opinion. You seem to bully other who don't agree.
I think you saying I have no meta awareness is unfounded.

You write like HEX is always activated against the entire meta. It's base 65 the majority of the time.

I just don't think this warrants a quick ban.
No one is bullying anyone. They just pointed out the flaws in your argument. Gar has been an issue since early on in the tier and lacks reasonable counterplay. It alongside other pokemon like Latios and Manaphy have had a restrictive effect on the tier. And given a certain blue jet still hangs around, the tier has been in a messy state. Booting Gar is hopefully going to speed things along so the tier can better develop.
 
Gengar

You post a survey asking us our thoughts about this Pokemon. You get our responses that Gengar is generally fine by the majority of the community and simply u ignore it and do the complete opposite quickbanning it instead.

Take example from Kyurem, Finch posted a survey, people responded that its generally fine, they did a Suspect Test anyway and after people got the opportunity to experiment and target Kyurem on its own they responded positively on Banning Kyurem. Thats how Council should be doing things, you are Leaders of a Community and metagame not dictators.
If we responded that Gengar was generally broken and we wanted it banned it would make sense to Quickban it even if there were a few people who wanted it to stay cuz it would be just a few people but in this case community's response was completely ignored.

Im not complaining or arguing that Gengar isnt broken or if it is broken for the tier yet. Im arguing and im upset only for the part that we have no word in this, especially after Council asked us.
Gengar is a Pokemon many think is fine in the metagame, many of others think it could be broken and we should review it and suspect test it and a few think that its too much get it out immediately with a quickban statistically proven by the Survey.
It has been OU and lower forever, more that a decade and its a drastic change Quickbanning it all of a sudden without even getting peoples feedback.
We recently started seeing the impact of Gengar being a strong pokemon in the tier taking shape in the metagame. More Tyranitars with or without Chople Berry (a staple item for Tyranitar since 2012), more Gengars, more max spdef Scizors without wasting EVs anywhere like we previously did which allows it to live after leftovers 2 shadowballs and 2ko with Bulletpunch, more Weaviles, Alakazam + Magnezones cores etc. The Metagame started shifting against Gengar and finding tools to counterplay it like it should versus a respected and powerful threat such as Gengar and this is the point where we would see if the Tier has the tools to do so consistently.
Until now it wasnt under the radar of many so Banning it instantly leaves no space for the community to form opinions on it.
Heck i got in playoff finals of BDSP Charity Bowl 2, top 8 in BDSP Kickoff Tour, Round 3 of winter seasonal and im consistently playing in High Ladder of BDSP OU with or without Gengar and still havent figured out what i would vote for it if we were given the opportunity to do so because we were all so busy focusing about other, more obvious threats like Latios and Garchomp.

Why Gengar is good:
Gengar in the tier is obviously a beast. Whenever it touches the field with a correct click or an accurate focus blast it can do massive damage.
Ghost type has been difficult to resist for many years now with the limited viable Normal and Dark types we have to defend against it and this idea of spamming ghost to offensively deal massive damage has been more consistent with the removal of Pursuit.
Steel types arent too good at dealing with it aswell, Spdef Heatran, Empoleon, Max Spdef Scizor all with Rocks down, spdef drops and high rolls they can get obliterated.
It has many viable sets:
Choice Specs the more promising one especially with Hex to ohko Physdef Gliscor or 2ko spdef Gliscor aswell as statused Pokemons.
Nasty Plot 3 atks having perfect coverage and only require 1 turn to boost up and get an almost guaranteed kill.
Choice Scarf utility usually in offensive teams with Destiny Bond often grabs 2 kills for 1 mon aswell as keeping in place opposing offensive threats. like Fast psychics and DDance users.
Even utility sets are semi viable with Substitute 2 atks, Substitute Will o wisp, Sub Hex etc.
Its speed tier is quite good, same with Latios, outspeeds Infernape, Garchomp, Lucario etc.
Cursed Body versus examples like BP Scizor and Scald Empoleon also has alot of value aswell.
Overall its a beast.

What problems Gengar has:
Ghost Poison with poor defensive stats doesnt provide much value defensively outside of switching on Clefable (except against Twave) and predicting against Fighting type atks or expected priority hits from the likes of Extreme Speed Lucario or Mach Punch Breloom often costing you your whole Gengar on a Meteor Mash or Spore / CB Rock Tomb.
Offensive Psychic types for the most part are all faster or speed tie with it so its an invite to them whenever Gengar manages to get a kill or the opponent was able to play around and pivot against its hits. Starmie Alakazam Azelf and Latios all key threats in the metagame.
It also invites the few solid Dark types we have that in general get only a few opportunities to get in the field but when they do they are massive damage dealers like CB Tyranitar, CB / LO Crawdaunt, CB Weavile etc.
Its poor defensive stats forcing out Gengar in many scenarios against common Scarfers. Scarf Rotom, Garchomp, Staraptor and others all have tools to either ohko or 2ko gengar. Even something like Scarf Togekiss that u are supposed to beat when we talkin about typings with 2 flinches u are putting it down owin to Gengars poor defenses. So its not as easy as it sounds gettin it on the field multiple times and deal damage. Requires predictions and solid plays like Mega Medicham would in Generation 6 to get value from it, hints that its good for OU.
Focus Blast is extremely inaccurate, not gonna argue that its 70%. We all have examples of important games that our shit missed 3 focus blasts in a row when we only needed 1 to hit. Its not reliable, its not consistent way of dealing with many of its checks. It does the job when it hits but its inconsistency is definitely far from desired when we are talking about a pokemon that is supposed to be too good for OU.
Gengar is extremely useless versus stall on its own. Stall is very promising and Blissey is a must in every stall team. It walls all Gengar sets even Substitute Nasty Plot doesnt do well enough against it simply cuz Shadowball and even CM are standard on blissey for various threats (Manaphy, Latios, Nasty Plot Alakazam, CM Clefable and Gengar).
So its not an instant killing machine in every matchup and it has its flaws even versus offense and bulky offense that its supposed to be good against.
Finally the biggest thing with Gengar is that u can play around it. Shadow Ball is extremely safe and free for the most part but it doesnt mean we dont have to tools to play around it. Gengar can potentially break most of its checks but it actually needs to click the right things to do so. You can Shadow Ball and follow it up with a Focus Blast against my Tyranitar or Heatran but i can get my Gliscor or my Togekiss or even my Psychic type versus that Focus Blast. You can click Specs Shadow Ball to my Spdef Heatran and do a good 30 to 35% after leftovers but then u have to switch around my Heatran clickin magma storms and earthpowers or even go into your Garchomp and invite my Weavile because u were locked into Shadow Ball before. You can find opportunities to Nasty Plot and end up forced out against my faster threat.
There are alot of scenarios and matchups where although Gengar was lookin very promising in team preview it had their opponents simply playing around its hits which on its own isnt the most valid point to prove Gengar isnt broken but it says something when many competent and tournament players say it.

Overall at this point if we were given the opportunity i would vote no Ban for Gengar but because there are people (way less than the majority) who believe Gengar should be suspect tested and there are only a few who believe it should be gone immediately, a Suspect Test would be the best midground approach for Gengar. This way we will be able to experiment with it or against it, it will include Community's opinion on such big deal and not just council's opinion and overall there are no downsides of another Suspect test except the few non trophy Tournaments coming up soon for BDSP OU and the very small percentage of the people as shown from the responses in the survey who want it gone immediately and dont wanna play against it for another month of a Suspect Test.

europe.pnggreece3.pngmedicham.pngQC-Splash-small.gif
 
Gengar

You post a survey asking us our thoughts about this Pokemon. You get our responses that Gengar is generally fine by the majority of the community and simply u ignore it and do the complete opposite quickbanning it instead.

Take example from Kyurem, Finch posted a survey, people responded that its generally fine, they did a Suspect Test anyway and after people got the opportunity to experiment and target Kyurem on its own they responded positively on Banning Kyurem. Thats how Council should be doing things, you are Leaders of a Community and metagame not dictators.
If we responded that Gengar was generally broken and we wanted it banned it would make sense to Quickban it even if there were a few people who wanted it to stay cuz it would be just a few people but in this case community's response was completely ignored.

Im not complaining or arguing that Gengar isnt broken or if it is broken for the tier yet. Im arguing and im upset only for the part that we have no word in this, especially after Council asked us.
Gengar is a Pokemon many think is fine in the metagame, many of others think it could be broken and we should review it and suspect test it and a few think that its too much get it out immediately with a quickban statistically proven by the Survey.
It has been OU and lower forever, more that a decade and its a drastic change Quickbanning it all of a sudden without even getting peoples feedback.
We recently started seeing the impact of Gengar being a strong pokemon in the tier taking shape in the metagame. More Tyranitars with or without Chople Berry (a staple item for Tyranitar since 2012), more Gengars, more max spdef Scizors without wasting EVs anywhere like we previously did which allows it to live after leftovers 2 shadowballs and 2ko with Bulletpunch, more Weaviles, Alakazam + Magnezones cores etc. The Metagame started shifting against Gengar and finding tools to counterplay it like it should versus a respected and powerful threat such as Gengar and this is the point where we would see if the Tier has the tools to do so consistently.
Until now it wasnt under the radar of many so Banning it instantly leaves no space for the community to form opinions on it.
Heck i got in playoff finals of BDSP Charity Bowl 2, top 8 in BDSP Kickoff Tour, Round 3 of winter seasonal and im consistently playing in High Ladder of BDSP OU with or without Gengar and still havent figured out what i would vote for it if we were given the opportunity to do so because we were all so busy focusing about other, more obvious threats like Latios and Garchomp.

Why Gengar is good:
Gengar in the tier is obviously a beast. Whenever it touches the field with a correct click or an accurate focus blast it can do massive damage.
Ghost type has been difficult to resist for many years now with the limited viable Normal and Dark types we have to defend against it and this idea of spamming ghost to offensively deal massive damage has been more consistent with the removal of Pursuit.
Steel types arent too good at dealing with it aswell, Spdef Heatran, Empoleon, Max Spdef Scizor all with Rocks down, spdef drops and high rolls they can get obliterated.
It has many viable sets:
Choice Specs the more promising one especially with Hex to ohko Physdef Gliscor or 2ko spdef Gliscor aswell as statused Pokemons.
Nasty Plot 3 atks having perfect coverage and only require 1 turn to boost up and get an almost guaranteed kill.
Choice Scarf utility usually in offensive teams with Destiny Bond often grabs 2 kills for 1 mon aswell as keeping in place opposing offensive threats. like Fast psychics and DDance users.
Even utility sets are semi viable with Substitute 2 atks, Substitute Will o wisp, Sub Hex etc.
Its speed tier is quite good, same with Latios, outspeeds Infernape, Garchomp, Lucario etc.
Cursed Body versus examples like BP Scizor and Scald Empoleon also has alot of value aswell.
Overall its a beast.

What problems Gengar has:
Ghost Poison with poor defensive stats doesnt provide much value defensively outside of switching on Clefable (except against Twave) and predicting against Fighting type atks or expected priority hits from the likes of Extreme Speed Lucario or Mach Punch Breloom often costing you your whole Gengar on a Meteor Mash or Spore / CB Rock Tomb.
Offensive Psychic types for the most part are all faster or speed tie with it so its an invite to them whenever Gengar manages to get a kill or the opponent was able to play around and pivot against its hits. Starmie Alakazam Azelf and Latios all key threats in the metagame.
It also invites the few solid Dark types we have that in general get only a few opportunities to get in the field but when they do they are massive damage dealers like CB Tyranitar, CB / LO Crawdaunt, CB Weavile etc.
Its poor defensive stats forcing out Gengar in many scenarios against common Scarfers. Scarf Rotom, Garchomp, Staraptor and others all have tools to either ohko or 2ko gengar. Even something like Scarf Togekiss that u are supposed to beat when we talkin about typings with 2 flinches u are putting it down owin to Gengars poor defenses. So its not as easy as it sounds gettin it on the field multiple times and deal damage. Requires predictions and solid plays like Mega Medicham would in Generation 6 to get value from it, hints that its good for OU.
Focus Blast is extremely inaccurate, not gonna argue that its 70%. We all have examples of important games that our shit missed 3 focus blasts in a row when we only needed 1 to hit. Its not reliable, its not consistent way of dealing with many of its checks. It does the job when it hits but its inconsistency is definitely far from desired when we are talking about a pokemon that is supposed to be too good for OU.
Gengar is extremely useless versus stall on its own. Stall is very promising and Blissey is a must in every stall team. It walls all Gengar sets even Substitute Nasty Plot doesnt do well enough against it simply cuz Shadowball and even CM are standard on blissey for various threats (Manaphy, Latios, Nasty Plot Alakazam, CM Clefable and Gengar).
So its not an instant killing machine in every matchup and it has its flaws even versus offense and bulky offense that its supposed to be good against.
Finally the biggest thing with Gengar is that u can play around it. Shadow Ball is extremely safe and free for the most part but it doesnt mean we dont have to tools to play around it. Gengar can potentially break most of its checks but it actually needs to click the right things to do so. You can Shadow Ball and follow it up with a Focus Blast against my Tyranitar or Heatran but i can get my Gliscor or my Togekiss or even my Psychic type versus that Focus Blast. You can click Specs Shadow Ball to my Spdef Heatran and do a good 30 to 35% after leftovers but then u have to switch around my Heatran clickin magma storms and earthpowers or even go into your Garchomp and invite my Weavile because u were locked into Shadow Ball before. You can find opportunities to Nasty Plot and end up forced out against my faster threat.
There are alot of scenarios and matchups where although Gengar was lookin very promising in team preview it had their opponents simply playing around its hits which on its own isnt the most valid point to prove Gengar isnt broken but it says something when many competent and tournament players say it.

Overall at this point if we were given the opportunity i would vote no Ban for Gengar but because there are people (way less than the majority) who believe Gengar should be suspect tested and there are only a few who believe it should be gone immediately, a Suspect Test would be the best midground approach for Gengar. This way we will be able to experiment with it or against it, it will include Community's opinion on such big deal and not just council's opinion and overall there are no downsides of another Suspect test except the few non trophy Tournaments coming up soon for BDSP OU and the very small percentage of the people as shown from the responses in the survey who want it gone immediately and dont wanna play against it for another month of a Suspect Test.

View attachment 401184View attachment 401185View attachment 401186View attachment 401187
There are some really odd arguments here that are also inconsistent. You address Gengar's good points but then while talking bad points, you mostly talk in allusion to its specs set, talking about scarfers revenging it when Gar can run scarf itself, and well I might add. Ttar can switch into specs shadow ball, but can't reliably handle other sets. And Weavile is rocks weak, limiting its opportunities to switch into shadowball. Oh and Daunt is not a switch in. At all.

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 158-186 (59.1 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The focus miss argument is really just not an argument. Even with its 70% accuracy, the "counterplay" of switching in your Ttar with the hope that FB misses is kinda questionable. And on the subject of counterplay, no SB Blissey is not a standard. It doesn't WANT to run it but does so to not lose to varients of Gar. Bliss would drop SB for a better move in a heartbeat if it could.

Finally... Your last bit is just one big paragraph of assuming you predict perfectly against Gar. That you will always have a team that can handle any varient of Gar. Which is not an argument as prediction goes both ways.
 
There are some really odd arguments here that are also inconsistent. You address Gengar's good points but then while talking bad points, you mostly talk in allusion to its specs set, talking about scarfers revenging it when Gar can run scarf itself, and well I might add. Ttar can switch into specs shadow ball, but can't reliably handle other sets. And Weavile is rocks weak, limiting its opportunities to switch into shadowball. Oh and Daunt is not a switch in. At all.

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 158-186 (59.1 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The focus miss argument is really just not an argument. Even with its 70% accuracy, the "counterplay" of switching in your Ttar with the hope that FB misses is kinda questionable. And on the subject of counterplay, no SB Blissey is not a standard. It doesn't WANT to run it but does so to not lose to varients of Gar. Bliss would drop SB for a better move in a heartbeat if it could.

Finally... Your last bit is just one big paragraph of assuming you predict perfectly against Gar. That you will always have a team that can handle any varient of Gar. Which is not an argument as prediction goes both ways.
And Your Arguement is you also always predict with gengar correct lol,u say hex for stuff like gli well oppo can predict that too,the games in bdsp for the most part is very fast paced game,if all the talk is about specs set ,well u can run priority,yes only mamo azu and daunt is there for the major part but hazard chip+the prio is enough ,and then there r lots of scarfers running around,u say gar can be scarf too well there u go it doesnt 2hko stuff like sciz anymore,i mean i just dont get why u r gatekeeping the chats and saying it should be banned when the easiest and best approach is to simply suspect test
 
And Your Arguement is you also always predict with gengar correct lol,u say hex for stuff like gli well oppo can predict that too,the games in bdsp for the most part is very fast paced game,if all the talk is about specs set ,well u can run priority,yes only mamo azu and daunt is there for the major part but hazard chip+the prio is enough ,and then there r lots of scarfers running around,u say gar can be scarf too well there u go it doesnt 2hko stuff like sciz anymore,i mean i just dont get why u r gatekeeping the chats and saying it should be banned when the easiest and best approach is to simply suspect test
You'd be right if Gengar only came in once a battle. But it doesn't, does it? Yes, "prediction goes both ways", but Gengar only has to guess right once to break your team in half, whereas you need to guess right every single time you switch into it, while also playing around Trick. Also, first time it comes in you have to guess that it's Specs and not SubWisp/NP/Mean Look trapper (because there's nothing quite as annoying as getting your Blissey Dbonded/Perish Songed with Latios waiting in the wings).

This is still a metagame in development. Most experienced players agree that Gengar is broke AF because the counterplay is to correctly guess what move it's going to use every time it comes in while running the hardest stall possible so you have 3 checks to it because one is getting Tricked at some point and another is getting blasted by one good guess/switching the wrong mon in Nasty Plot/beaten by one of the other mons it's trying to check alongside Gengar. Hence, rather than waste time on a Gengar suspect test, which would be a foregone conclusion, the council wishes to QB it, then get on with an Alakazam test/Latios retest/whatever that isn't going to be a waste of time and a foregone conclusion. Gengar can even be suspected back into the tier at a later date if people think it's managable.

But chances are it won't be because you can't defend defensively against it at all, attempts to revenge kill it are based on obscenely fast scarfers (Latias only speed ties it if it's also scarf, you really, REALLY don't want your Gengar revenge killer to only rk it 50% of the time), and attempts to kill it with priority fail because it's often behind a Sub and Wisps your Scizor as you try, or because it outright tanks the priority and kills you back, or because it just switches out and will return to click more Specs-boosted moves later.

u say gar can be scarf too well there u go it doesnt 2hko stuff like sciz anymore
Someone's never seen Trick+Nasty Plot. Mod Edit: Gengar does not get Trick
 
Last edited by a moderator:

KaenSoul

FuegoAlma
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Community Leader
Just because a special attacker can SOMETIMES beat Blissey by boosting 2/3x and landing focus blasts without getting T waved or Shadow Balled doesn't meant it should go.
Think about it, is a special attacker that can beat Blissey without relying on mixed sets, residual damage (like Magma storm heatran) or Psyshock, if something with a bulk as massive as Blissey has trouble switching on it, then what is left for everyone else? Do you really want to use max HP/SpD CM Blissey on every team to handle this one mon?

Gengars 2 main stabs have common IMMUNITIES
Poison does, but for Ghost you are limited to Blissey useless you want to use niche/bad mons like Snorlax and Porygon-Z and they die if they switch into the wrong move, is just a bad idea to relly on Ghost immunities when they cant handle any other move.

it is absolutely floored by the most common priority
It can survive Aqua Jet from CB Crawdaunt and getting daunt into the field is pretty hard as it only can switch into SB, and just like Scizor it doesnt want to switch into Wisp, it also handle Bullet Punch from SpD Scizor pretty well, and then we have to remember Extreme Speed and Mach Punch are also popular priority options and Gengar is immune to them.

and there are numerous speed tiers that outpace and OHKO for super effective damage.
Your options are limited to Azelf, Alakazam, Starmie and Weavile, that isnt numerous, most are Psychic types that dont go together useless you play Psychic spam, none of them can switch into and relly on revenge killing, and they cant do that vs substitute sets that easly.

Franky, Scizor and Gliscor, the two most common pokemon in this meta are some of the most solid counters to this pokemon unless you play incredibly poorly and let a 100% Gengar get a free Nasty Plot or 2.
They lose to Wisp, NP, Disable and Specs sets, how are they counters? Gengar dont even need to boost and may end with a free substitute.

What problems Gengar has:
Ghost Poison with poor defensive stats doesnt provide much value defensively outside of switching on Clefable (except against Twave) and predicting against Fighting type atks or expected priority hits from the likes of Extreme Speed Lucario or Mach Punch Breloom often costing you your whole Gengar on a Meteor Mash or Spore / CB Rock Tomb.
Offensive Psychic types for the most part are all faster or speed tie with it so its an invite to them whenever Gengar manages to get a kill or the opponent was able to play around and pivot against its hits. Starmie Alakazam Azelf and Latios all key threats in the metagame.

Its poor defensive stats forcing out Gengar in many scenarios against common Scarfers. Scarf Rotom, Garchomp, Staraptor and others all have tools to either ohko or 2ko gengar. Even something like Scarf Togekiss that u are supposed to beat when we talkin about typings with 2 flinches u are putting it down owin to Gengars poor defenses. So its not as easy as it sounds gettin it on the field multiple times and deal damage. Requires predictions and solid plays like Mega Medicham would in Generation 6 to get value from it, hints that its good for OU.

Gengar is extremely useless versus stall on its own. Stall is very promising and Blissey is a must in every stall team. It walls all Gengar sets even Substitute Nasty Plot doesnt do well enough against it simply cuz Shadowball and even CM are standard on blissey for various threats (Manaphy, Latios, Nasty Plot Alakazam, CM Clefable and Gengar).

Finally the biggest thing with Gengar is that u can play around it. Shadow Ball is extremely safe and free for the most part but it doesnt mean we dont have to tools to play around it. Gengar can potentially break most of its checks but it actually needs to click the right things to do so. You can Shadow Ball and follow it up with a Focus Blast against my Tyranitar or Heatran but i can get my Gliscor or my Togekiss or even my Psychic type versus that Focus Blast. You can click Specs Shadow Ball to my Spdef Heatran and do a good 30 to 35% after leftovers but then u have to switch around my Heatran clickin magma storms and earthpowers or even go into your Garchomp and invite my Weavile because u were locked into Shadow Ball before. You can find opportunities to Nasty Plot and end up forced out against my faster threat.
There are alot of scenarios and matchups where although Gengar was lookin very promising in team preview it had their opponents simply playing around its hits which on its own isnt the most valid point to prove Gengar isnt broken but it says something when many competent and tournament players say it.
This is true, is not perfect, and i have to admit they are valid points.

It also invites the few solid Dark types we have that in general get only a few opportunities to get in the field but when they do they are massive damage dealers like CB Tyranitar, CB / LO Crawdaunt, CB Weavile etc.
None of them can really switch into it, you are risking a Wisp, both daunt and weavile can only switch once into SB, Tyranitar is fine but you have to predict well or be lucky to evade two FB in a row, they work better as revenge killers, specially vs scarf and specs sets as they can take advantage of it.

Focus Blast is extremely inaccurate, not gonna argue that its 70%. We all have examples of important games that our shit missed 3 focus blasts in a row when we only needed 1 to hit. Its not reliable, its not consistent way of dealing with many of its checks. It does the job when it hits but its inconsistency is definitely far from desired when we are talking about a pokemon that is supposed to be too good for OU.
I dont see acc as a good argument for moves with at least 70 acc, they often miss, but you cant assume they will, the risk of being hit by it is often too high and you shouldnt try to take it useless you are out of options.
But still, very good post overall even though i got the opposite conclusion.
 
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You'd be right if Gengar only came in once a battle. But it doesn't, does it? Yes, "prediction goes both ways", but Gengar only has to guess right once to break your team in half, whereas you need to guess right every single time you switch into it, while also playing around Trick. Also, first time it comes in you have to guess that it's Specs and not SubWisp/NP/Mean Look trapper (because there's nothing quite as annoying as getting your Blissey Dbonded/Perish Songed with Latios waiting in the wings).

This is still a metagame in development. Most experienced players agree that Gengar is broke AF because the counterplay is to correctly guess what move it's going to use every time it comes in while running the hardest stall possible so you have 3 checks to it because one is getting Tricked at some point and another is getting blasted by one good guess/switching the wrong mon in Nasty Plot/beaten by one of the other mons it's trying to check alongside Gengar. Hence, rather than waste time on a Gengar suspect test, which would be a foregone conclusion, the council wishes to QB it, then get on with an Alakazam test/Latios retest/whatever that isn't going to be a waste of time and a foregone conclusion. Gengar can even be suspected back into the tier at a later date if people think it's managable.

But chances are it won't be because you can't defend defensively against it at all, attempts to revenge kill it are based on obscenely fast scarfers (Latias only speed ties it if it's also scarf, you really, REALLY don't want your Gengar revenge killer to only rk it 50% of the time), and attempts to kill it with priority fail because it's often behind a Sub and Wisps your Scizor as you try, or because it outright tanks the priority and kills you back, or because it just switches out and will return to click more Specs-boosted moves later.


Someone's never seen Trick+Nasty Plot.
it doesn’t even learn trick lol. shilling this hard for a ban of a Pokémon you clearly don’t even use or play against
 
my first (and probably pointless) post on smogon hehe

gengar after nplot calcs
+2 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 224 SpD Scizor: 246-289 (71.7 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 402-474 (56.3 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 696-820 (172.2 - 202.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 226-267 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal (kind of a troll calc cuz no one runs this much spdef iirc but u get the point)
+2 252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 279-328 (91.7 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

so after nplot, gains no switch ins???

specs gar calcs
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Scizor: 180-213 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 302-356 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 520-616 (128.7 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 208-246 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Hex (130 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 276-325 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (again, troll calc)


scarf gengar calcs
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 596-704 (212 - 250.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Alakazam: 272-324 (108.3 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 350-414 (120.2 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
ahh who cares ,gars most offensive counters usually get ohkoed back by coverage or stabs i guess :/

priority doesnt always kill gengar
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 204-242 (78.1 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 123-145 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 139-165 (53.2 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 162-192 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 178-211 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and uhh, gar is immune to espeed and mach

Judging by these calcs, Gengar is a Pokémon that shows massive power.

Gengar currently is a huge menace, being able to even beat its checks if its specs or boosted, and being frail but not too frail to the point where it dies to priority. With the lack of pursuit and steel not resisting ghost like it did back in gen 4 and the existence of fairies, Gengar is simply stronger then ever as it is strong enough to beat its checks after simply 1 nasty plot which isn't even hard to pull off or just simply using specs. Scarf sets let gar have the ability to even ohko its more offensive counters like alakazam and weavile, hex allows gar to break past gliscor, substitute can be used if the opponent switches, and gengar has alot of sets that in reality you probably won't be able to check.

Looking at the recent posts from this thread and the arguments to not ban gengar, Gengar is forcing poeple to run niche or unviable pokemon/sets just to check it, which clearly is pretty bad and proves that there is a problem.

Honestly the way i see it, Gengar just doesn't need to be in ou right now, maybe see what happens after home and maybe retest?

(first bdsp post so sorry if its bad post :c )
 
https://pokepast.es/38cabf89f710454c
First team I built in BDSP ou. Simply unstoppable. Went 54wins 3 losses and got to first place in the ladder. Hard stall is still a very difficult playstyle to beat even tho there are some threats that can dismantle it probably is the best style available. Only guts mons, sludge bomb crawdaunt scizor with a bug move that is not u turn and sd and very few other things like hazard spam strategies can beat this team. It’s just rock solid. What do you think about stall in the current meta?
 

Xilefi

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First and foremost : this thread is a metagame discussion about BDSP OU. If you're talking about the ability of the council to decide to quickban a pokemon, they have the right to do so. If you want to change the rules, this shall not be discussed here. There is enough ways to express your opinion in the smogon community to not blame any council member about how the rules work : free speach on all the forum and the vast majority of bans happens after a suspect test with a needed qualified majority of votes. Those are the same persons who belittle people for not being able to get the reqs. Arguing about the incompetence of the council is only direspectful about the dedicacy of its members for the whole smogon community.

Second of all : the role of a council member is to shape a metagame enjoyable for every one, thinking that you personally have no issue this X pokemon or you are enjoying playing with/against this Y pokemon doesn't mean this is the case for every one else. That said, if you want to play Gengar there is actually 103 metagames others than BDSP OU where it is available (yes i've come up with my dumb arguments aswell).

Thirdly : the role of a council member is also to shape a competitive metagame. When you're claiming a pokemon is balance because the opposing pokemon has 30% chance to avoid Focus Blast, you're wrong. Basing your strategy by avoiding a move isn't competitive, it is not even a strategy.

Fourth : the role of a council member is also to shape an healthy metagame. When you're saying counterplays exist which are so extreme that a pokemon loses its own relevance, this is straight up not viable. It's been more than a month that we are stacking Scizors in all our teams to avoid being OHKO by any Draco Meteor which is so exploitable that it is laughable. It's been more than a month that the best strategy to beat Gengar is to stack non-immune by ghost types priority moves which does not even stop completely Gengar to win games by the virtue of its versatility, power, and speed. If you come with every niche strategies that are exploitable by the rest of the metagame, your argument is not valid. Blissey doesn't even reliably counters it. Should we just stacks Scizor and Blissey in all our team ? Sounds the healthiest idea ever.

Please, be respectful if you want to discuss about the opportunity of a quickban. Please, try to be open about others'experiences if you disagree about a pokemon. Please, come with valid argument. And last but not least, Gengar is arguably better than Latios at the moment so please to those people who think Gengar should not be banned or should not be quickbanned cool down your frustration a bit, it is not even ban yet.
 

Eve

taking a break
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:dp/gengar:
With Manaphy's suspect test concluding in its ban, the BDSP OU Council has concluded their vote on Gengar, and we have unanimously agreed to hold a suspect test for Gengar! We won't keep you waiting too long- expect the action to commence in a day or two. Thanks for all your great posts on the matter!
 

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