Rhyperior and aero are leads that want to set up rocks. If you wanted to use aero as an offensive mon they would be offensive rock types with edgequake coverage, as aero lost dual wingbeat and aerial ace is a joke. The speed tier is a huge +for aero but because it's basically forced to be a suicide lead that nearly never comes into play much. As an offensive mon with largely the same coverage as rhyp it also runs into the problem that most teams have a check for it, because they prepped for rhyp ( mantine can't check this but in return it gets checked by slowking which rhyp has no problem with thanks to Megahorn). So yeah they are really similar. It's also funny how rhyp actually beats it too.
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Metagame BDSP RU (Cresselia + Gyarados Ban @ Post #112)
- Thread starter Eve
- Start date
manage to get fairly high on the RU Ladder (#6) and wanted to share an offensive team I've been using since the tier went through several key changes be it quick bans, or mons just moving up or moving down via usage. The paste is in the spoilers.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1505682169-t76nnwb2uvh24nhv4nhv697p5gmgesnpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1505687711-xzyg9swiptdesc1rrgil4pjddex08qmpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1504561761-hcusb027mxsqkizzw3ob3qvknrmtajupw
Sharpedo
Ability: Speed Boost
252 Atk/252 Spd/4 SpDef
Item: Life Orb
Adamant Nature
-Liquidation
-Crunch
-Earthquake
-Protect
The main win condition for this team usually tends to be Sharpedo and this mon will absolutely tear through a good portion of the tier and protect enabling it to gain a free speed boost to bypass certain scarfers after it gets a kill. The nice thing is that Sharpedo has a naturally good speed tier and even fully physical defensive granbull gets 3HKO'ed after intimidate meaning it's not exactly an ideal switch-in all the time and can get worn down and that's also not accounting for Sharpedo being able to run special if it needs to. The one mon who can feasibly handle physical Sharpedo is Cradily and it does fear Hitmontop due to mach punch. However that's where Sharpedo's teammates come in.
Machamp
Ability: Guts
248 HP/252 Atk/8 SpDef
Item: Flame Orb
Adamant Nature
-Close Combat
-Earthquake
-Bullet Punch
-Knock Off
Guts Machamp is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier who can absolutely maul a lot of defensive mons and can ignore Sableye and 2HKOs PhysDef Sableye with earthquake. The only defensive mon who realistically can take hits from Guts Machamp is neutralizing gas weezing and even that doesn't have reliable recovery especially since it's item can get knocked off although fully defensive granbull can take a fair share of bullet punches from Machamp. The HP investment actually allows Machamp to take 1 hit from non SpA Specs Exploud and KO it back funnily enough (not super practical but kinda funny to note) , it also enables it to take a STAB Psychic from Mespirit at full health and kill it back with Knock off which is funny but again not the most practical and actually take scarf rotom's STABs relatively comfortably, basically the HP investment allows it do to some neat stuff. The other notable thing is that it can take a STAB liquidation from Adamant Sharpedo with SR and 1 layer of spikes and KO it back.
252 SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Machamp: 306-360 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Machamp: 288-342 (75.1 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 SpA Rotom Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Machamp: 135-160 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
The main point of Machamp tho is to beat down stuff and it serves as a nice way of beating Cradily and even Steelix while Bullet Punch allows it to sneak in kills on weakened mons. EQ is mainly there for Nidoqueen whom Machamp can take a hit and kill back, basically it's a solid Guts user.
Mespirit
Ability: Levitate
Choice Scarf
252 SpA/252 Spd/4 SpDef
Timid Nature
-Psychic
-U-Turn
-Energy Ball/Thunderbolt
-Dazzling Gleam/Ice Beam
Primarily a revenge killer who also serves as a pivot. Energy Ball is for the likes of Gastrodon or even Vaporeon along with hurting Rhyperior heavily. It will outspeed +2 spd Jolly nature Rhyperior which running modest will not do as that's a mon who can be extremely threatening. Dazzling Gleam is to hurt Sableye who is a rather annoying mon to face in the tier and one of the premier spinblockers alongside hitting Spiritomb. Play around the coverage with whatever you deem necessary to fit on the team.
Kabutops
Ability: Weak Armor
Focus Sash
252 Atk/252 Spd/4 SpDef
Jolly Nature
-Rapid Spin
-Stealth Rock
-Liquidation/Aqua Jet
-Knock Off/Earthquake/Stone Edge
Our suicide lead whose main job is to get Rocks up and also spin hazards away if needed. Weak Armor allows it to receive a speed boost against any physical lead. It has a lot of flexibility for attacking moves but one can run whatever you see fit for your team as its job is fairly simple. It's also the one set that I probably could use the most improvement on.
Hitmontop
Ability: Technician
Leftovers/Expert Belt
252 Atk/252 Hp/4 SpDef
Adamant Nature
-Mach Punch
-Bullet Punch
-Sucker Punch
-Close Combat
How much priority do you want? Yes. Anyways rapid spin hitmontop stinks and it's arguably at its best when one is using it for priority. Its main job is to kill Sharpedo who is a threat alongside taking down Absol, it can technically run LO if u want to instakill Rotom but I mainly didn't want it to get worn down over time although expert belt allows it to pull that off if Rotom received prior SR damage and BP is mainly to hit stuff that's immune to mach punch. Close Combat enables it to kill specs Glaceon since the HP investment allows it to live specs boosted Ice Beam and KO it back with CC although Mach Punch can 2HKO. Basically, it's there to clean up more or less.
Nidoqueen
Ability: Sheer Force
Life Orb
252 SpA/252 Spd/4 SpDef
Timid Nature
-Earth Power
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Sludge Wave
Standard breaker set for Nidoqueen with bolt beam coverage. TBolt is to beat Mantine who could try and come in to clear out rocks, Earth Power and Sludge Wave are STAB and Sludge Wave is nice for Granbull and also Abomasnow. Ice Beam allows it to put pressure on Claydol and opposing grass types like Cradily, Torterra and Vileplume. Basically, it's our swiss army knife when it comes to coverage.
Overall the team generally is able to cover numerous mons in the tier and revolves around getting Sharpedo ready to go for a sweep late game although the team around Sharpedo are also capable of holding their own for the most part.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1505682169-t76nnwb2uvh24nhv4nhv697p5gmgesnpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1505687711-xzyg9swiptdesc1rrgil4pjddex08qmpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1504561761-hcusb027mxsqkizzw3ob3qvknrmtajupw
Sharpedo
Ability: Speed Boost
252 Atk/252 Spd/4 SpDef
Item: Life Orb
Adamant Nature
-Liquidation
-Crunch
-Earthquake
-Protect
The main win condition for this team usually tends to be Sharpedo and this mon will absolutely tear through a good portion of the tier and protect enabling it to gain a free speed boost to bypass certain scarfers after it gets a kill. The nice thing is that Sharpedo has a naturally good speed tier and even fully physical defensive granbull gets 3HKO'ed after intimidate meaning it's not exactly an ideal switch-in all the time and can get worn down and that's also not accounting for Sharpedo being able to run special if it needs to. The one mon who can feasibly handle physical Sharpedo is Cradily and it does fear Hitmontop due to mach punch. However that's where Sharpedo's teammates come in.
Machamp
Ability: Guts
248 HP/252 Atk/8 SpDef
Item: Flame Orb
Adamant Nature
-Close Combat
-Earthquake
-Bullet Punch
-Knock Off
Guts Machamp is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier who can absolutely maul a lot of defensive mons and can ignore Sableye and 2HKOs PhysDef Sableye with earthquake. The only defensive mon who realistically can take hits from Guts Machamp is neutralizing gas weezing and even that doesn't have reliable recovery especially since it's item can get knocked off although fully defensive granbull can take a fair share of bullet punches from Machamp. The HP investment actually allows Machamp to take 1 hit from non SpA Specs Exploud and KO it back funnily enough (not super practical but kinda funny to note) , it also enables it to take a STAB Psychic from Mespirit at full health and kill it back with Knock off which is funny but again not the most practical and actually take scarf rotom's STABs relatively comfortably, basically the HP investment allows it do to some neat stuff. The other notable thing is that it can take a STAB liquidation from Adamant Sharpedo with SR and 1 layer of spikes and KO it back.
252 SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Machamp: 306-360 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Machamp: 288-342 (75.1 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 SpA Rotom Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Machamp: 135-160 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
The main point of Machamp tho is to beat down stuff and it serves as a nice way of beating Cradily and even Steelix while Bullet Punch allows it to sneak in kills on weakened mons. EQ is mainly there for Nidoqueen whom Machamp can take a hit and kill back, basically it's a solid Guts user.
Mespirit
Ability: Levitate
Choice Scarf
252 SpA/252 Spd/4 SpDef
Timid Nature
-Psychic
-U-Turn
-Energy Ball/Thunderbolt
-Dazzling Gleam/Ice Beam
Primarily a revenge killer who also serves as a pivot. Energy Ball is for the likes of Gastrodon or even Vaporeon along with hurting Rhyperior heavily. It will outspeed +2 spd Jolly nature Rhyperior which running modest will not do as that's a mon who can be extremely threatening. Dazzling Gleam is to hurt Sableye who is a rather annoying mon to face in the tier and one of the premier spinblockers alongside hitting Spiritomb. Play around the coverage with whatever you deem necessary to fit on the team.
Kabutops
Ability: Weak Armor
Focus Sash
252 Atk/252 Spd/4 SpDef
Jolly Nature
-Rapid Spin
-Stealth Rock
-Liquidation/Aqua Jet
-Knock Off/Earthquake/Stone Edge
Our suicide lead whose main job is to get Rocks up and also spin hazards away if needed. Weak Armor allows it to receive a speed boost against any physical lead. It has a lot of flexibility for attacking moves but one can run whatever you see fit for your team as its job is fairly simple. It's also the one set that I probably could use the most improvement on.
Hitmontop
Ability: Technician
Leftovers/Expert Belt
252 Atk/252 Hp/4 SpDef
Adamant Nature
-Mach Punch
-Bullet Punch
-Sucker Punch
-Close Combat
How much priority do you want? Yes. Anyways rapid spin hitmontop stinks and it's arguably at its best when one is using it for priority. Its main job is to kill Sharpedo who is a threat alongside taking down Absol, it can technically run LO if u want to instakill Rotom but I mainly didn't want it to get worn down over time although expert belt allows it to pull that off if Rotom received prior SR damage and BP is mainly to hit stuff that's immune to mach punch. Close Combat enables it to kill specs Glaceon since the HP investment allows it to live specs boosted Ice Beam and KO it back with CC although Mach Punch can 2HKO. Basically, it's there to clean up more or less.
Nidoqueen
Ability: Sheer Force
Life Orb
252 SpA/252 Spd/4 SpDef
Timid Nature
-Earth Power
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Sludge Wave
Standard breaker set for Nidoqueen with bolt beam coverage. TBolt is to beat Mantine who could try and come in to clear out rocks, Earth Power and Sludge Wave are STAB and Sludge Wave is nice for Granbull and also Abomasnow. Ice Beam allows it to put pressure on Claydol and opposing grass types like Cradily, Torterra and Vileplume. Basically, it's our swiss army knife when it comes to coverage.
Overall the team generally is able to cover numerous mons in the tier and revolves around getting Sharpedo ready to go for a sweep late game although the team around Sharpedo are also capable of holding their own for the most part.
I feel like Sableye is generally a lot better than Dusknoir. It misses out on the Tpunch lure for Mantine, but doesn't need it as it can just taunt Mantine to completely shut it down. It also has a far better typing, allowing it to deal with fightings a lot better by taking a Knock Off and really messing with the previously mentioned Medicham in a way Dusknoir can't.
I definitely agree, but I mainly run dusknoir in my teams for shadow sneak revenge kills, while sableye tbh it's not as good as dusknoir to switch into. Sableye is undisputably better than Dusknoir as a ghost pokemon in the meta, while Dusknoir is simply just a better switch-in.
I love Aerodactyl and nobody can change my mind, speed tier is otherworldly, reminds me of Azelf.
First day laddering, made top 50 before tilting and dropping heavily and here are some thoughts.
This mon is stupid. I think it's without a doubt the most broken mon in the tier. Sure Mantine and Vaporeon wall it. However, they can't do much back to it and a single def drop means they need to switch or die. This thing should be looked at as it's pretty stupid. Until then gonna keep abusing it thought.
I put these two in the same category because they both essentially do the same thing. Break the crap out of everything, Machamp is slower and bulkier but hits harder while Medicham has speed and secondary stab. Both 1-2hko the entire tier and when stacked together become a little overwhelming. Now idk if either of them is banworthy on there own, but when put together they put a heavy restriction on teambuilding and it's hard to do much more then sack and try and revenge kill. Or them with any combination of the many other amazing fighting types in RU.
This mon is IMO the single best mon in the tier and is gonna be apart of every team I build. Sure the lack of recovery really hurts it a ton. However, intimidate + fairy typing is incredible especially in a tier lacking fairy types. This allows it to be one of the only reliable checks to all of the above pokes and being an incredible glue mon altogether. Seriously use this thing and you'll be happy.
Swellow is also one of the better mons in the tier. With flame orb facade and brave bird, and a fighting buddy or two. It's one of the most reliable cleaners in the tier and one of the best checks to many scary offensive mons, due to it's incredible speed tier. Not the best mons but one of the better ones out there.
Overall the meta is pretty fun, one of my more favorite metas I've played in a long time. While there are some busted things and it can be hard to build at times, all together I'm enjoying it and gonna stick around for a while.
This mon is stupid. I think it's without a doubt the most broken mon in the tier. Sure Mantine and Vaporeon wall it. However, they can't do much back to it and a single def drop means they need to switch or die. This thing should be looked at as it's pretty stupid. Until then gonna keep abusing it thought.
I put these two in the same category because they both essentially do the same thing. Break the crap out of everything, Machamp is slower and bulkier but hits harder while Medicham has speed and secondary stab. Both 1-2hko the entire tier and when stacked together become a little overwhelming. Now idk if either of them is banworthy on there own, but when put together they put a heavy restriction on teambuilding and it's hard to do much more then sack and try and revenge kill. Or them with any combination of the many other amazing fighting types in RU.
This mon is IMO the single best mon in the tier and is gonna be apart of every team I build. Sure the lack of recovery really hurts it a ton. However, intimidate + fairy typing is incredible especially in a tier lacking fairy types. This allows it to be one of the only reliable checks to all of the above pokes and being an incredible glue mon altogether. Seriously use this thing and you'll be happy.
Swellow is also one of the better mons in the tier. With flame orb facade and brave bird, and a fighting buddy or two. It's one of the most reliable cleaners in the tier and one of the best checks to many scary offensive mons, due to it's incredible speed tier. Not the best mons but one of the better ones out there.
Overall the meta is pretty fun, one of my more favorite metas I've played in a long time. While there are some busted things and it can be hard to build at times, all together I'm enjoying it and gonna stick around for a while.
Venusaur @ Black Sludge
Ability: Chlorophyll/Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 68 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Toxic / Leech Seed / Sleep Powder
I really don't see more of this mon, I was surprised to see that it was even IN RU. It's somewhat underrated, I feel.
Not only does it check Granbull, which is quickly becoming one of the best pokemon in the tier, it's also a solid switchin to Rotom, Raichu, Jolteon (but jolteon is bad), all of the fighting types besides Machamp, Medicham, and Gallade, and is good for if your team has problems with Gastrodon or Mantine. Being an electric checker that can eat grass and water coverage is big, and resisting fighting is a large benefit as well. It also has access to Toxic, which (as it should be) has limited distribution in BDSP. The EVs maximize physical defense whilst also being 3hkoed by Specs Rotom Shadow Ball.
Partners for it? Mantine, the best defogger in the tier, checks fire types such as Moltres. In turn, Venusaur beats the electrics and bulky waters for it. Similarly, Vaporeon and Gastrodon work well with Venusaur for largely similar reasons.
This is the only set i have for it as of now, although i want to try other sets, such as life orb attacker or SD.
Being a fighting type check that loses to the best fighting mons in the tier kinda suck but can see having a niche bc of toxic mostly.
Venusaur @ Black Sludge
Ability: Chlorophyll/Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 68 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Toxic / Leech Seed / Sleep Powder
I really don't see more of this mon, I was surprised to see that it was even IN RU. It's somewhat underrated, I feel.
Not only does it check Granbull, which is quickly becoming one of the best pokemon in the tier, it's also a solid switchin to Rotom, Raichu, Jolteon (but jolteon is bad), all of the fighting types besides Machamp, Medicham, and Gallade, and is good for if your team has problems with Gastrodon or Mantine. Being an electric checker that can eat grass and water coverage is big, and resisting fighting is a large benefit as well. It also has access to Toxic, which (as it should be) has limited distribution in BDSP. The EVs maximize physical defense whilst also being 3hkoed by Specs Rotom Shadow Ball.
Partners for it? Mantine, the best defogger in the tier, checks fire types such as Moltres. In turn, Venusaur beats the electrics and bulky waters for it. Similarly, Vaporeon and Gastrodon work well with Venusaur for largely similar reasons.
This is the only set i have for it as of now, although i want to try other sets, such as life orb attacker or SD.
Overgrowth > Chlorophyll imo bc Sun isn't common whitout Drought and Overgrowth give you more recovery and damage with giga drain.
Other thing is Venusaur compete with Torterra
as a bulky grass type being a better electric check that Venu but suffer most against bulky water bc of X4 Ice WeaknessIt's not just the 4x ice weakness. Tort is a physical attacker, meaning it can't switch into Scalds as easily as Venu becuase while burn is annoying for venu, it's crippling for the turtle.. Not to mention its low spdef and the fact that it doesn't resist water hurts it.Being a fighting type check that loses to the best fighting mons in the tier kinda suck but can see having a niche bc of toxic mostly.
Overgrowth > Chlorophyll imo bc Sun isn't common whitout Drought and Overgrowth give you more recovery and damage with giga drain.
Other thing is Venusaur compete with Torterra
That is what i mean.
Tort can also be a wincon if you choose to run SD.
Resisting EdgeQuake and blocking Voltswitch is a plus on Tort favor.
I thinks is most of that Venu is more towards a Balance playatile when Tort shines in bulky offence checking things like Rhyperior and the electric
Gotta say I've been having a lot of success with the Gallade recently
Gallade (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Shadow Sneak / Psycho Cut / Subsitute
I've managed to get Top 50 on the ladder using a screens offense using this mon, and it has been great offensive and defensively to check stuff. Even in matchups where it has a harder time, like against Sableye it's still able to make progress with Knock Off to weaken them for other teammates, and it's a bulk up mon that doesn't care for psys like Mespirit, Uxie, etc.
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom Shadow Ball vs. 236 HP / 20 SpD Gallade: 276-326 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 280-330 (116.1 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 236 HP / 20 SpD Gallade: 256-303 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exploud: 380-450 (108.8 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Overheat vs. 236 HP / 20 SpD Gallade: 246-291 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 456-536 (156.7 - 184.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Liquidation vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 266-316 (79.1 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 251-296 (74.7 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 534-630 (190 - 224.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A couple replays showcasing Gallade
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1509646129-tudqkd0fcd1lv6covfme6koh91zf8hcpw Vs Balance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1484968657-4r394z0h24x4ue9exdydyegfhwsbrufpw Vs Sun
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1507807484-vmlikpack32v0p53muodaa56g3q6ukvpw Vs Offense
Gallade (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Shadow Sneak / Psycho Cut / Subsitute
I've managed to get Top 50 on the ladder using a screens offense using this mon, and it has been great offensive and defensively to check stuff. Even in matchups where it has a harder time, like against Sableye it's still able to make progress with Knock Off to weaken them for other teammates, and it's a bulk up mon that doesn't care for psys like Mespirit, Uxie, etc.
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom Shadow Ball vs. 236 HP / 20 SpD Gallade: 276-326 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 280-330 (116.1 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 236 HP / 20 SpD Gallade: 256-303 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exploud: 380-450 (108.8 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Overheat vs. 236 HP / 20 SpD Gallade: 246-291 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 456-536 (156.7 - 184.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Liquidation vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 266-316 (79.1 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 251-296 (74.7 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 534-630 (190 - 224.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A couple replays showcasing Gallade
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1509646129-tudqkd0fcd1lv6covfme6koh91zf8hcpw Vs Balance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1484968657-4r394z0h24x4ue9exdydyegfhwsbrufpw Vs Sun
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1507807484-vmlikpack32v0p53muodaa56g3q6ukvpw Vs Offense
A few Pokemon I wanted to talk about in this meta that I feel are broken in some form or another. Listing them in order of most to least broken.
This thing stone walls just about every special attacker in the tier. While it is quite passive, it is still able to dish out reasonable damage with Seismic Toss, and with reliable recovery and natural cure status isn't a problem for it either. It can even support its team with Stealth Rock if need be. In a vacuum it doesn't look to be too bad, as we have several great Fighting types that can all deal with it (Machamp, Hariyama, Hitmonlee, Medicham), but (and I hate myself for invoking this argument) it can easily partner with Sableye, which stone walls just about all of them. A Fighting weakness is super easy to build around, with many great defensive mons like Granbull, Vileplume, Sableye, Xatu and Mantine all resisting it. Chansey just makes stall teams way too good IMO.
On the other end of the spectrum, we have the loud boi Exploud. We all know what this thing does: click Boomburst, watch stuff die. Unless you have the aforementioned annoying pink blob, this thing will be claiming a 2HKO every time it comes in. Ghost types? It has Scrappy so they're just victims. In fact, they're switch in opportunities. Steelix, Aggron and Rhyperior are all smashed by Surf. Hell even Chansey isn't absolutely safe since it still gets 3HKOed by Focus Blast after Stealth Rock (that's 252/252 Calm Chansey btw). Even though it's slow and has average at best bulk, getting it in safely isn't hard with all the VoltTurn going around. If I have to run Chansey or play a game of "who you gonna sack?" every time this thing gets in, that to me says broken.
Late game, this thing is gross. It can outrun everything thanks to Speed Boost and its STABs hit the entire meta for neutral damage, making it very tough to stop. Being able to run both Physical and Special sets make it even harder to stop, since you might bring in your Granbull expecting a physical set and whoops - here's Hydro Pump. Or you might bring in your Mantine expecting a special set and now you get 2HKOed by Crunch. Because its STABs have such good coverage in the tier, you can run an option like Taunt or Destiny Bond in the final slot to either cripple a weak wall or take something else down with you. You can snipe it with priority, but the only priority it's really scared of is Mach Punch, which is used by a whopping 2 Pokemon in the Hitmons. Lee is solid, but generally outshined by the likes of Machamp and Medicham. Top is just terrible and really should've dropped at this point.
This thing stone walls just about every special attacker in the tier. While it is quite passive, it is still able to dish out reasonable damage with Seismic Toss, and with reliable recovery and natural cure status isn't a problem for it either. It can even support its team with Stealth Rock if need be. In a vacuum it doesn't look to be too bad, as we have several great Fighting types that can all deal with it (Machamp, Hariyama, Hitmonlee, Medicham), but (and I hate myself for invoking this argument) it can easily partner with Sableye, which stone walls just about all of them. A Fighting weakness is super easy to build around, with many great defensive mons like Granbull, Vileplume, Sableye, Xatu and Mantine all resisting it. Chansey just makes stall teams way too good IMO.
On the other end of the spectrum, we have the loud boi Exploud. We all know what this thing does: click Boomburst, watch stuff die. Unless you have the aforementioned annoying pink blob, this thing will be claiming a 2HKO every time it comes in. Ghost types? It has Scrappy so they're just victims. In fact, they're switch in opportunities. Steelix, Aggron and Rhyperior are all smashed by Surf. Hell even Chansey isn't absolutely safe since it still gets 3HKOed by Focus Blast after Stealth Rock (that's 252/252 Calm Chansey btw). Even though it's slow and has average at best bulk, getting it in safely isn't hard with all the VoltTurn going around. If I have to run Chansey or play a game of "who you gonna sack?" every time this thing gets in, that to me says broken.
Late game, this thing is gross. It can outrun everything thanks to Speed Boost and its STABs hit the entire meta for neutral damage, making it very tough to stop. Being able to run both Physical and Special sets make it even harder to stop, since you might bring in your Granbull expecting a physical set and whoops - here's Hydro Pump. Or you might bring in your Mantine expecting a special set and now you get 2HKOed by Crunch. Because its STABs have such good coverage in the tier, you can run an option like Taunt or Destiny Bond in the final slot to either cripple a weak wall or take something else down with you. You can snipe it with priority, but the only priority it's really scared of is Mach Punch, which is used by a whopping 2 Pokemon in the Hitmons. Lee is solid, but generally outshined by the likes of Machamp and Medicham. Top is just terrible and really should've dropped at this point.
I second this. Chansey doesn't need eviolite to wall most special attackers in the tier. Specially how easily is to pach his weakness in a tier with high tier fighting resist.
This thing stone walls just about every special attacker in the tier. While it is quite passive, it is still able to dish out reasonable damage with Seismic Toss, and with reliable recovery and natural cure status isn't a problem for it either. It can even support its team with Stealth Rock if need be. In a vacuum it doesn't look to be too bad, as we have several great Fighting types that can all deal with it (Machamp, Hariyama, Hitmonlee, Medicham), but (and I hate myself for invoking this argument) it can easily partner with Sableye, which stone walls just about all of them. A Fighting weakness is super easy to build around, with many great defensive mons like Granbull, Vileplume, Sableye, Xatu and Mantine all resisting it. Chansey just makes stall teams way too good IMO.
I don't think a ban is needed but if most people want to suspect Chansey i gonna be one of them.
I'll say it. Exploud has to go before anything else it's easily the most problematic thing in the tier. Everytime there is a game with an Exploud in it. It comes down to don't let the Exploud in or something is dead or crippled for the rest of the game. That's it, that's the entire game plan and if Exploud gets in more then once? Well you lose unless you have Chansey, Mr Mime or a Soundproof Exploud on your team. It's stupid when one of the only checks to a mon in a tier is itself.
Calm Chansey is must in many teams, as it is the only mon that can care-freely wall exploud, without having to worry about its move selection.
Bold Chansey 2HKO after Rocks
SpD Cradily gets 2HKO'd by Focus Blast after rocks, Calm Mantine gets 2HKO'd after rocks, Mr Mime gets 2HKO'd by Surf after rocks, making chansey the only viable Exploud without relying in Lady Fortune.
**All calcs made using MAX SPE AND SPA Modest Exploud**
Bold Chansey 2HKO after Rocks
Calm Chansey 19.9 chance to 2HKO after Rocks.
With this set it can also be used to apply status or chip various physical attackers without getting 1HKO'd; Absol, Physical Sharpedo, and non-banded Aggron.
SpD Cradily gets 2HKO'd by Focus Blast after rocks, Calm Mantine gets 2HKO'd after rocks, Mr Mime gets 2HKO'd by Surf after rocks, making chansey the only viable Exploud without relying in Lady Fortune.
**All calcs made using MAX SPE AND SPA Modest Exploud**
I think we are in a case of "broken check broken" with Exploud and Chansey.
Chansey limits most special attacker and Exploud blast trought most special wall.
I dont think having to build every balance team around Chansey to not get destroyed by Exploud is a "balance" trought.
Outside a few mons RU is one the best if not the best tier to play rn in BDSP. Being balance in my eyes outside of a few mons. I mean during the alpha i fell the same outside of Kingdra and Venomoth
Chansey limits most special attacker and Exploud blast trought most special wall.
I dont think having to build every balance team around Chansey to not get destroyed by Exploud is a "balance" trought.
Outside a few mons RU is one the best if not the best tier to play rn in BDSP. Being balance in my eyes outside of a few mons. I mean during the alpha i fell the same outside of Kingdra and Venomoth
The "Bull"
Tier: A+
Role: Physical Wallbreaker, Physical Wall.
Granbull @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Heal Bell
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Heal Bell
Rhyperior can't switch-in into bull unless it's Jolly banded, otherwise, it will get 2HKO'd by EQ after stealth rock, and before stealth rock, it has a whopping 69% chance to OHKO, from experience, EQ is a better coverage move than CB, and Ice Fang is a must for Torterra (which 99% of the time you'll be faster than.
Calcs.
252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 204-240 (47 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 160-189 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 178-210 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (on the switch - in)
Replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1517110838
I will not be covering the Impish set, foremost, I do think Granbull shines brighter as a wallbreaker.
Exploud @ Leftovers / Silk Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest nature
- Work Up
- Boomburst
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
I don’t claim credit for this set, I saw someone using it on ladder the other day. It plays a lot like Work Up Refresh Mega Pidgeot from ORAS. If you thought you could wall loud boy with Chansey, you can think again. Doesn’t do much against offensive teams, but that’s not Exploud’s job anyway.
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest nature
- Work Up
- Boomburst
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
I don’t claim credit for this set, I saw someone using it on ladder the other day. It plays a lot like Work Up Refresh Mega Pidgeot from ORAS. If you thought you could wall loud boy with Chansey, you can think again. Doesn’t do much against offensive teams, but that’s not Exploud’s job anyway.
Stats are now out. RU lost Sharpedo, Torkoal, and Uxie, and got back Froslass.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...january-2022-february-34.3695554/post-9139057
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...january-2022-february-34.3695554/post-9139057
Lalaya
Banned deucer.
exploud remains your problem it seems 
btw, a common issue i found discussed during this suspect is that the reqs were too high for the current ladder and for being a lower tier of an already unofficial meta
I guess a vote via council + ru open top8 would have been also an option
that being said, thoughts on the matter?
btw, a common issue i found discussed during this suspect is that the reqs were too high for the current ladder and for being a lower tier of an already unofficial meta
I guess a vote via council + ru open top8 would have been also an option
that being said, thoughts on the matter?
Before I get into why Exploud staying wasn't really the play, I just want to implore the other voters bar Tuthur and I why you voted no ban in the first place? At the end of the day, you can vote whatever the hell you want but I'm not too sure the votes were actually thought about enough and had the tier's best interests in mind.
Now throughout the last 2 or so months, basically the post-alpha period, the RU playerbase (whatever is left of it) had expressed their annoyance of Exploud's presence in the tier, which in turn led to the suspect. Users even complaining that council weren't doing anything about Exploud. Most people that expressed their opinion straight up wanted it to be banned and the few anti-ban sentiments were all along the lines of "offence beats it". I'll get onto that line of reasoning later in this post and why it's hardly a strong argument for keeping Exploud in the tier but regardless, most thought it was a bad, broken and unhealthy presence in the tier, myself included.
So... What happens now? Well this is what is going to happen. The tier will continue to stay in the same place where the offensively-inclined teambuilders will be rejoice that Exploud has a worse matchup vs them while everyone else that wants to build any sort of defensive team or nothing that is HO will proceed to use Chansey as their crutch in order to not lose. Not to mention the fact that tier adaptation is a thing and Exploud has ways of negging Chansey like Nidoqueen running Superpower now and there goes its most consistent check in the tier. How fun. It is just a warping presence on the teambuilder and even if you're like "Everyone is still going to run specs instead of sub work up because that's the best set" still, balance/stall has no choice just to run Chansey just to feel relatively safe because the likes of Cradily, another mon that people love to say is an Exploud check, which it is, still has to be wary of Focus Blast predicts, which is relatively not a bad move to click but also has to be spdef or it dies after rocks to Modest.
Going back to the line of thought "offence beats it/has good matchup", here's my issue with that argument. Exploud is so easy to support with like Voltturn teams, most always have a good defensive core that can handle Exploud's checks anyway, which mostly involve fighting types because it hardly dies in one from full HP. We like to say Exploud is frail but it doesn't have like Zangoose level bulk and it's really evident when you actually use the mon. Also, you get momentum up vs any of these offence teams and Exploud just gets a free kill each time. Like the mon already has limited switchins, you're using a team archetype with mons that will die to it in 1. Yeah idk, it's just so blatantly obvious the mon is too much for the tier and now we have to continue playing around it.
Just a last note here that it's a shame that the suspect didn't go as smoothly as we expected. I guess NU ladder coming killed RU's activity plus the reqs were just a bit too much, if it was lower, I'm certain the outcome would've been different but this suspect will be a reminder for any other BDSP lower tier suspects if we ever have one again.
TLDR Exploud should've been banned, anti-ban arguments are flawed/non-existent would like to hear them, defensive teams will continue to use Chansey on every team because that sounds like a healthy metagame.
Now throughout the last 2 or so months, basically the post-alpha period, the RU playerbase (whatever is left of it) had expressed their annoyance of Exploud's presence in the tier, which in turn led to the suspect. Users even complaining that council weren't doing anything about Exploud. Most people that expressed their opinion straight up wanted it to be banned and the few anti-ban sentiments were all along the lines of "offence beats it". I'll get onto that line of reasoning later in this post and why it's hardly a strong argument for keeping Exploud in the tier but regardless, most thought it was a bad, broken and unhealthy presence in the tier, myself included.
So... What happens now? Well this is what is going to happen. The tier will continue to stay in the same place where the offensively-inclined teambuilders will be rejoice that Exploud has a worse matchup vs them while everyone else that wants to build any sort of defensive team or nothing that is HO will proceed to use Chansey as their crutch in order to not lose. Not to mention the fact that tier adaptation is a thing and Exploud has ways of negging Chansey like Nidoqueen running Superpower now and there goes its most consistent check in the tier. How fun. It is just a warping presence on the teambuilder and even if you're like "Everyone is still going to run specs instead of sub work up because that's the best set" still, balance/stall has no choice just to run Chansey just to feel relatively safe because the likes of Cradily, another mon that people love to say is an Exploud check, which it is, still has to be wary of Focus Blast predicts, which is relatively not a bad move to click but also has to be spdef or it dies after rocks to Modest.
Going back to the line of thought "offence beats it/has good matchup", here's my issue with that argument. Exploud is so easy to support with like Voltturn teams, most always have a good defensive core that can handle Exploud's checks anyway, which mostly involve fighting types because it hardly dies in one from full HP. We like to say Exploud is frail but it doesn't have like Zangoose level bulk and it's really evident when you actually use the mon. Also, you get momentum up vs any of these offence teams and Exploud just gets a free kill each time. Like the mon already has limited switchins, you're using a team archetype with mons that will die to it in 1. Yeah idk, it's just so blatantly obvious the mon is too much for the tier and now we have to continue playing around it.
Just a last note here that it's a shame that the suspect didn't go as smoothly as we expected. I guess NU ladder coming killed RU's activity plus the reqs were just a bit too much, if it was lower, I'm certain the outcome would've been different but this suspect will be a reminder for any other BDSP lower tier suspects if we ever have one again.
TLDR Exploud should've been banned, anti-ban arguments are flawed/non-existent would like to hear them, defensive teams will continue to use Chansey on every team because that sounds like a healthy metagame.
I'll say my opinion on this for whatever it's worth.
Last month BDSP RU was by far my favorite current tier. It was fun to play, was decently balanced and you could do some real fun and creative stuff in it. It helped that I was a top 5 ladder player as well.
2 things killed my enthusiasm.
One is the recent rises which killed 80% of my teams. That's fine though I would make new ones. Or at least I would if it weren't for #2
Exploud. Who is broken, horrible and only really has a single check/counter in Chansey or Soundproof mons. All of which can easily be lured and beaten by Exploud.
So I went to go and vote ban for it. Or at least I would have if not, for one thing. I had to a minimum of 50 games in a meta I now dislike on a ladder where I get a game every 5-10 minutes.... yeah fuck that.
Last month BDSP RU was by far my favorite current tier. It was fun to play, was decently balanced and you could do some real fun and creative stuff in it. It helped that I was a top 5 ladder player as well.
2 things killed my enthusiasm.
One is the recent rises which killed 80% of my teams. That's fine though I would make new ones. Or at least I would if it weren't for #2
Exploud. Who is broken, horrible and only really has a single check/counter in Chansey or Soundproof mons. All of which can easily be lured and beaten by Exploud.
So I went to go and vote ban for it. Or at least I would have if not, for one thing. I had to a minimum of 50 games in a meta I now dislike on a ladder where I get a game every 5-10 minutes.... yeah fuck that.
Not gonna lie, I usually lean toward keeping my mouth shut once the suspect test is over; see Latios. Exploud was really dumb, it gets one safe switch-in which is the highly exploitable and passive Chansey and niche Soundproof Pokemon like Mr. Mime. I think this suspect test was flawed due to high the reqs were put. If you give a look at the list of voters, only one got reqs in the minimum set games, 30. The minimum games played by a DNB voter is 46, and the other ones are much higher (57, 78, and 89). This suspect test didn't reward battling skill, but tryhard skill. Most people don't have the time to play over 50 games on a dead ladder to get reqs. That is not saying the people who voted ban didn't deserve their reqs, because if reqs had been lower, as they should have, matching other OM ladders, they would still have got reqs. However, you'd have a bigger and more accurate pool of voters if reqs could have been made in less games. To be honest the fault is less on people who voted DNB on Exploud, than on council for not lowering reqs when they realized nobody was getting them and that the only people who got them played around 50 games on a dead ladder.
played 90 games during this suspect with different types of teams and never really had problems with ploud… thats what a suspect is for, to find out wether a mon is broken or no. And because I did not have any previous knowledge of the tier I decided to vote DnB.. based on my experience while playing
I agree with this. I based my thought process and post by how I saw Exploud as a problem. I haven’t played BDSP RU prior outside of a few ladder matches, so I didn’t really have much experience to go through when voting. By far the biggest issue is what Tuthur covered: the standards to achieve reqs was too high. BDSP RU’s ladder activity, as pointed out by players in the BDSP Metagames room and the discord, it often took 5 minutes to find a game. From what I’ve seen, there also wasn’t much discussion from the discord and BDSP metagames about Exploud’s place, which also contributed to the lack of decisiveness. In fact, most of the logs throughout the BDSP RU discord were players complaining about the suspect taking too long to find a game and not about exploud, which can serve as an indicator that the ladder quality itself was the problem. Even when laddering, the majority of games didn’t have Exploud, which contributed in making it harder to judge whether Exploud was problematic or not. The majority of laddering also had weird transitions between hyper-offense and stall, meaning it was polarizing to prepare for both sides of the spectrum.
Meant to post this sooner, but after the dust settled, to say this suspect was poorly run was an understatement. The requirements were too high for a dead ladder which already deterred some from going for reqs whether it be for too many games, taking too long to find a game, or something in between while trying. Granted I don't have to do this, but as a member of the council, I do feel like apologizing not because of the result of the suspect, but moreso appeasing to the players for doing the Exploud suspect but making it seem demanding to vote with some unrealistic requirements at the end of the day. As for the result of the suspect which in turn resulted in it staying, I'm honestly not upset at the result as people weren't swayed in any one direction and were honest so I can respect that. In regards to Exploud as a whole, more bulky, stallish teams will still resort to Chansey as the best overall "check" granted the appeal of lure sets with Hammer Arm or SubPunch are also very appealing, or just be like me and run Cross Chop Magmortar . Offense will reign supreme for the time being and despite the lack of responses, RU still has a nice balance for me between balance and bulk despite the flaws. For future suspects, the requirements will definetly have to be more lenient in the future as trying to compete requisite wise with something like BDSP OU was nice in theory, but doomed to fail in practice due to lack of interest and hopefully this error will result in a more smoother metagame going forward.
. Offense will reign supreme for the time being and despite the lack of responses, RU still has a nice balance for me between balance and bulk despite the flaws. For future suspects, the requirements will definetly have to be more lenient in the future as trying to compete requisite wise with something like BDSP OU was nice in theory, but doomed to fail in practice due to lack of interest and hopefully this error will result in a more smoother metagame going forward.