Metagame BDSP RU (Cresselia + Gyarados Ban @ Post #112)

okay most things have been said but i just want to talk about Spiritomb. Spiritomb is easily the best counter we have to all the fighting types that are really good in the tier and it cripples most of them with will o wisp ( besides hariyama and machamp if they run guts). It has solid defenses on both sides which makes it so that it can adapt different set and take hits well, even when uninvested. It beats venemoth 1v1 if it already has put something to sleep if it runs a spdef set, but even the complete PhysDef set can take a +1 bug buzz and possibly another. Mr.MIme and maybe wigglytuff are the only viable fairies in the tier and almost nothing has fairy coverage. Here are some calcs.



+1 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb: 160-189 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Spiritomb: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Spiritomb Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 152-180 (54 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Spiritomb Psychic vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 102-122 (36.2 - 43.4%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Primeape Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Spiritomb: 71-84 (23.3 - 27.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Primeape Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 89-105 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Spiritomb Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primeape: 162-192 (59.7 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Here are my two favourite sets:

:spiritomb:
Spiritomb @ Aguav Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
- Psychic
- Dark Pulse





:spiritomb:

Spiritomb @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
- Psychic
- Dark Pulse

I bet there sre some offensive sets out there too, but i dont think thats too valauble rn
 
Last edited:
Ok so idk if anyone has address this already but I was messing around with the most broken mon to make it even more broken and there's a clear partner that gets rid of most of its few answers and makes it even more stupid. So I went on with this core.

Hail Hydra
+
+


Kingdra @ Lum / Chesto Berry / Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Substitute / Rest / Focus Energy

Abomasnow @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Blizzard
- Wood Hammer
- Ice Shard

Houndoom @ Black Glasses
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Sucker Punch

This is prob my fav Kingdra set so far. Phys Critdra is actually even more busted than special imo. You can even forget Focus energy and run lum or resto chesto. With Veil up Kingdra is even easier to setup and DD favoures it even more than agility. Doesn't even need to crit to burst through.
Abomasnow not only providing Veil but Hail support which helps against sun for Kingdra and deletes Shedinja (unless it has Sunny day ig), it also has a very good mu against both Shell Armor Lapras and Torterra. Set is prob customizable but I went with this. Lastly, I wanted to finish a FWG core with a setup mon and Houndoom fits that roll pretty well. Black Glasses so it doesn't take that much chip from hail + lo. Its actually bulky enough with veil up to set NP. Sucker is nice for picking faster mons like Scarf Rotom or Haunter. Obviously the same promiment mons that we all know are annoying to deal with so, Exploud, Sharpedo, Venomoth and opposing Kingdra needs to be checked. But this core has worked nicely for me and I encourage you to try it out! ^^
 
I am suprised that no one has mentioned Exeggutor as viable, as specs 2hkos a HUGE majority of the meta and offensive mons just drop in one hit. It is also viable on sun teams as it allows it to outspeed and finish mons that would live its first hit. Yes it has its issues, mediocre defensively, but grass psychic stab is AMAZING in this meta rn. Steels that would resist psychic and grass are usually also rock type and take loads from leaf storm/solar beam, and dont have reliable recovery so they get chunked pretty hard.

I feel the tree has a niche here, but it does require support. It is just super difficult to switch into when it comes in.


(also quickban kingdra please i cant take this any longer)
Only a minor thing: pls dont use black letter bc is hard to read in dark version specially on phones..
 
In my experience, Specs Vaporeon kinda shits on a lot of mons just bc everyone expects Wish. You may get 1-2 kills with pure Surprise factor
 
In my experience, Specs Vaporeon kinda shits on a lot of mons just bc everyone expects Wish. You may get 1-2 kills with pure Surprise factor
That's, not a good idea. Hoping for suprise factor might help if specs vaporeon did anything important that other waters like Lapras can't do.
 
That's, not a good idea. Hoping for suprise factor might help if specs vaporeon did anything important that other waters like Lapras can't do.
Vaporeon has the second or third highest Water SpA. Timid Vaporeon is stronger than modest Kingdra, and u can very comfortably run Modest on Vapes. Specs Pump eats (u can still run wish on it too, like in Gen 4)
 
Vaporeon has the second or third highest Water SpA. Timid Vaporeon is stronger than modest Kingdra, and u can very comfortably run Modest on Vapes. Specs Pump eats (u can still run wish eon it too, like in Gen 4)
KIngdra can boost its stats and get guaranteed crits which makes it stronger. Also what evs do you run. If we are going with modest most grasses outspeed it: Shiftry, torterra, leafeon, ludicolo, sceptile and victreebell all outspeed it. If it doesnt have speed investment that list becomes even longer. That all the electrics outspeed it is clear. But maybe the Bulk of 252 HP makes up for that but all of these mons can safely switch into hydro pump as well. might as well just use Kingdra that breaks through every wall in the tier or exploud whos boomburst is so strong that even mons that resist the move often cant switch in. And with focus blast + surf it actually hits all the targets that vaporeon hits while not being outclassed by kingdra. For example some neutral targets.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vaporeon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb: 246-289 (80.9 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb: 250-295 (82.2 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb on a critical hit: 393-465 (129.2 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior on a critical hit: 909-1071 (209.4 - 246.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Exploud Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 357-420 (82.2 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vaporeon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 813-957 (187.3 - 220.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mantine: 107-126 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mantine: 220-259 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mantine on a critical hit: 315-370 (84.4 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It probably isnt unusable and might be fun on ladder, but its not good.
 
Vaporeon isn't awful, base 110 SpA is nothing to scoff at and its movepool is semi-usable. However, it is already a splashable defensive Water-type and no longer having that risks teambuilding issues. Additionally, it struggles to compete with other offensive Water-types like Kingdra and Sharpedo which saturate the tier. Unremarkable speed and uninvested bulk leaves it quite open, and the amount of threats to it in the tier is nothing short. No longer having a form of recovery makes less use of its bulk, which sets it apart from the aforementioned two.

I wouldn't advocate for it being consistent or good, but how you use it is up to you. Viability is a guideline for tiering, you don't have to follow it.

In my experience, Specs Vaporeon kinda shits on a lot of mons just bc everyone expects Wish. You may get 1-2 kills with pure Surprise factor
Please don't make extremely short posts and/or simple questions!
 
Last edited:
Playing the format, I'd like to share some sets that I really like:

1641771085798.png

Rutger (Kingdra) (M) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Energy
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Flash Cannon

This thing is super super busted on sticky webs teams. 228 speed EVs ensures you're fast enough to outspeed 252+ Jolteon at -1; the rest of the EVs can be dumped into special defense. Draco Meteor is the main spammable move of choice as nothing in the tier resists both it and Surf; even then common Steel types like Steelix and Aggron are tasked with fending off other common Pokemon on Kingdra's team. Flash Cannon is there for the extra smack on Cradily, which is bizarrely common as a Kingdra check and is mostly just a useless blob from what I've seen.

1641771375397.png

scrimblo (Masquerain) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sticky Web
- U-turn
- Air Slash
- Energy Ball/Hydro Pump/Ice Beam

This is the best web setter in the format. The combination of Air Slash and and the fourth move beats every spinner in the format; Ground types like Sandslash and Claydol aren't safe while the Hitmons are easy pickings. Energy Ball is preferred for the fourth slot to allow you to beat Kabutops while also having the bonus of nailing Gastrodon; but Hydro Pump can be used with the Focus Sash to turn the tables on common Fire-types like Arcanine in a pinch. Ice Beam can be run for the 2HKO on Xatu, but generally I prefer luring it out and dealing with it before setting up Sticky Web.

1641771959252.png

AAAAAAAAAAA (Exploud) (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Focus Blast
- Surf
- Fire Blast/Ice Beam

Specs Boomburst is such an insanely spammable move that it's genuinely hilarious to see entire teams at -1 drop to it. Focus Blast is essential to handle the only switch-ins to the move, the dual Rock/Steel type Pokemon. Specially defensive Rhyperior EV spreads can avoid the 2HKO from Boomburst but can't for Surf. The last move isn't even necessary but whatever you pick can improve your coverage. Fire Blast can turn the tides on sun teams and is nice for a harder smack on certain Grass-type Pokemon. Scrappy is preferred as the ability, but Soundproof can be run as one of the only Boomburst switch ins in the game to counter opposing Exploud locked into the move. If running Soundproof, run a Timid nature to outspeed Modest Exploud and make sure the fourth move is Shadow Ball so you can hit Ghost type Pokemon.
 

Wanka

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UUPL Champion
Fun tier.

1641941391061.png


This shit is pure sauce. After a quick scan over of the usable mons for this tier, I felt really confident in lead frosslass spike stack being effective, mainly with sharpedo. The shark is honestly crazy good, even in UU so I wasn't surprised when I was able to shoot up to into the top 25 with this team relatively quickly. Nidoqueen and swellow compliment eachother pretty nicely given it's ability to u turn out on its checks to get in queen. sableye was a mon that I had been exploring in UU and found some good success with as a spinblocker that refuses to go down against unprepared teams and also compliments sharpedo nicely with its ability to knock & willo to chip things further into range for the shark. Golem is definitely not a great mon by itself, but it seemed enticing to have a sturdy custap rocker to kind of help keep the team fast paced and also something to deal with kingdra in a pinch whereas if I had rhyperior instead, I would straight up lose. Double taunt is also nice to help me keep opposing hazards off for the latter reasoning. Having another rocker next to nidoqueen is also really nice because it allows me to run thunderbolt for the occasional mantine/vaporeon that would otherwise kind of just sit on me. But yeah, really fun tier looking forward to building more sauce.

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

Swellow @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Brave Bird
- Quick Attack
- U-turn

Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam

Nidoqueen (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

Golem @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1489714856 (didn't feel like calcing, but hydro won me the game cleanly so i still feel like it's a decent replay)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1489721820 ( who doesn't love seeing stall get dunked on)
 

https://pokepast.es/9c0e997632f4dfd6

Some balanced team.
Spd Gastrodon, def Zapdos and Thick Fat Miltank are the core.
Medicham, Absol and Moltres are the hard hitters. Medicham outspeeds timid Explaud. Absol outspeeds modest Exploud. Moltres is modest scarfed.
Not really sure how well it performs, but I felt like building. Feel free to adjust it if you want to give it a try and have fun!
 
Pretty weird that nobody mentioned Lanturn regarding its ability to completely counter Zapdos, tho. Always gives me the shivers.
 
Pretty weird that nobody mentioned Lanturn regarding its ability to completely counter Zapdos, tho. Always gives me the shivers.
Uhh, Yes, it counters Zapdos, but honestly... Every ground type also did? Like, without Hurricane and Heat Wave, except if you play Drill Peck (lol) or U-Turn to be able to pivot, it can touch either every ground type. That's one of the reasons I really don't like Zapdos, yes it can defog and roost, but with his weakness to rocks and the fact he doesn't hit grounds and other electric immunities, I think in general, Mantine is better.
Of course, both are different, but I still have a lot of trouble seeing Zapdos be that good. If someone can explain to me better why people want that much to play this (except in specific cores maybe?), tell me, I need to know.

About Lanturn itself, meh, ok that's a bulky water with immunity to electric moves, but I feel he have a lot of trouble being really useful in games. I tried it just to know if it was viable, and his poor offense presence and his lack of good recovery made me think his electric immunity doesn't make Lanturn a good pokemon in the actual metagame.
 
Uhh, Yes, it counters Zapdos, but honestly... Every ground type also did? Like, without Hurricane and Heat Wave, except if you play Drill Peck (lol) or U-Turn to be able to pivot, it can touch either every ground type. That's one of the reasons I really don't like Zapdos, yes it can defog and roost, but with his weakness to rocks and the fact he doesn't hit grounds and other electric immunities, I think in general, Mantine is better.
Of course, both are different, but I still have a lot of trouble seeing Zapdos be that good. If someone can explain to me better why people want that much to play this (except in specific cores maybe?), tell me, I need to know.

About Lanturn itself, meh, ok that's a bulky water with immunity to electric moves, but I feel he have a lot of trouble being really useful in games. I tried it just to know if it was viable, and his poor offense presence and his lack of good recovery made me think his electric immunity doesn't make Lanturn a good pokemon in the actual metagame.
Zapdos is a good mon because of its good bulk which leads it to have many opportunities to Defog. Because it's so bulky it can also generally get the roost of before dying. The edge it has other mantine is a combination of more physical bulk, better speed, U turn and the ability to actually hit decently hard even without investment. It,unlike mantine, also doesn't have a 4x weakness. No HDB hurt it alot but that's a problem all but 2 defoggers have. The chance to para any opponent that makes contact with it is great. Moltres honestly fullfills a similar role like zapdos but moltres has some other problems and advantages that I won't go into now. Zapdos lives things like a swellow facade ( even with stealth Rock, I think) and OHKOs back with tBolt. It doesn't hurt grounds but if thats an argument you could also say mantine can't hurt grasses or stuff like Lapras. Hope this helped
 
Well, we still have over 2 weeks until any tiering action, and there are quite a few threats that have a clear hold on the tier: Kingdra, Exploud, Venomoth, Sun, you get the picture. And after multiple different teams that didn't quite do it for me consistently, I decided to run a particular team, one that could potentially counter every top tier threat in the meta, a balance team at that. And uh- I ended up with a 12-4 record and got all the way to Top 100 (though ladder creep has set in) thanks to this one team. So let's meet some of RU's current anti-meta faces.
Counter-Team

:dp/Lapras:
Shell Armor Lapras has gained quite the reputation as one of only 2 reliable counters to the demonic Kingdra, able to OHKO it back with just Freeze-Dry and 28 SpA EVs. This means Lapras can freely spend the rest of its points on bulk, becoming a surprisingly effective special wall with hazard support while still doing decent chunks with its STABs and coverage options like Thunderbolt (useful for para fishing) or Psychic (SpD drops and hits Fighting). Most shockingly, Lapras can actually make good use of Rest, providing it recovery and letting it absorb burns and Shuckle Toxic, abusing weaker special attackers like Gastrodon or passive mons like Shuckle to burn Rest turns. Just keep Rocks off the field and you're good to go.
Open Up for Lapras: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1488486713-7g4jquo1xn2dhuxwc5vvvpzhpzak3xqpw

:dp/Hitmontop:
Hitmontop seems to be a bit a divisive pick in the tier, with some praising its Spin and anti-offense capabilities while others insist it's "not a threat" and "trash". And far be it from me to disparage your opinion, as I make it my mission to respect opposing opinions. Even if they are objectively wrong. TechniTop serves as both hazard control and a way to pick off scary sweepers and cleaners including Venomoth, Sharpedo and Swellow with its scary priority combo of Fake Out and STAB Mach Punch, being particularly great late-game. Technician Spin deals a surprising amount of damage to neutral targets on top of hazard duty, being just bulky enough to take many neutral hits. But what about Ghosts? That is where we get an interesting option in Technician Thief, which both lets it KO most Ghosts in the tier and potentially steal their precious item- even the neutral Sableye and Spiritomb don't enjoy switching in lest they lose their precious Leftovers. That extra control is why I run No Item, though you can go with Leftovers if you don't need that. Technician Thief is something opposing Ghost types have to respect, as one wrong prediction vs Top can either cripple or send them to the afterlife.
The Power of Top: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1488970916

:dp/Sableye:
As you may notice in the replays, Sableye was easily MVP of the team. On top of blocking opposing Spin, Sableye also packs the ability to cripple most physical attackers with burn and annoy defensive mons with Taunt and Knock Off. Between burn and Recover, Sable is one of RU's premier defensive walls despite its meager stats; however, my Sable packs 100 SpD EVs to better 1v1 certain mons like lead Froslass, and still perfomed perfectly well in its role.
Sableye is Annoying: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1487893078

:dp/Arcanine:
Flash Fire Arcanine is one of the best answers to Sun, absorbing Fire moves and using Sun to boost its own Flare Blitz, with Extreme Speed to pick off weakened Chlorophyll users and Close Combat- is Close Combat. While Band is strong, each of its moves can be played around when locked in, plus LO lets you run Morning Sun (which also benefits from Sun, ho ho). Arcanine often won't stick around for long, but its breaking power and ability to stave off Sun make it quite the fearsome fire types.
Why You Go Jolly: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-148887316 (could've played better here but I still won so ha)

:dp/Torterra:
Torterra is an interesting case; I picked Terra because I still needed a Rocker, a Ground type and wanted at least one Ground resist. Torterra's niche as a Rocker comes from its ability to 1v1 opposing Rockers thanks to its STAB combo, plus STAB EQ in general hits a lot of things hard; I went with Seed Bomb to not compromise longevity, but you can also run Wood Hammer to pick up certain KOs. Recovery in Synthesis also allows it stick around versus bulkier teams, and gets some defensive utility being a Ground type not weak to Water or Grass moves; Rock Slide is another option for catching those pesky Flying types on the switch if you don't care about sticking around. Yache Berry is actually the premier item for Rocker Torterra imo, allowing it to take an Ice Beam from Kingdra or Froslass and hit back hard; at full, it can even take a Sheer Force LO Beam from Nidoqueen, OHKOing back with EQ. Offensive Terra may be better overall, but this set served my team perfectly fine.
The Specific Example: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1488964145

:dp/Mr. Mime:
With only 3 Fairies to choose from, Mr. Mime stands out as the only Fairy with any serious viability in the tier. On top of blanking Kingdra's Dracos, Soundproof gives it a valuable defensive role in sponging Exploud Boomburst and Venomoth Bug Buzz, while offensively it scares out Poison types with STAB Psychic and packs Focus Blast for Steels and dominating Exploud even harder, with Scarf providing extra speed control. Trick may seem redundant given Top and Sable, but being able to Choice-lock certain threats can be game-changing (such as vs the Gastro in the Sable replay). Scarf sets can alternatively run Thunderbolt for bulky Waters like Mantine and Lapras or Healing Wish to bring back partners on more offensive teams.
More Exploud Shenanigans: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1488403435

:Swellow: :Zapdos: :Weezing:
Even Counter Team cannot counter everything, but fortunately there's only a few that are particular issues. Swellow was probably my most common problem, and it can be hard to play around if it gets Flame Orb off, but you can Recover stall with Sableye to make it wear itself down with Brave Bird or revenge kill it with Top or Arcanine (Scarf Mime can also work if no Quick Attack). The team also has a less than ideal time breaking Zapdos, as the team only SE hit against it is also weak to STAB, but Zap honestly hasn't been too common in my experience, with newer players possibly being scared off by its gutted movepool. I didn't run into Weezing at all, but it is highly annoying vs this team on paper.

While no member is perfect, I will adamantly argue that each member of the team holds a valuable role within the meta (at the very least this team offers a lot vs the mons ladder tends to spam). Even if you don't pick up this team, I highly recommend giving at least one of these guys a try.
 
Zapdos is a good mon because of its good bulk which leads it to have many opportunities to Defog. Because it's so bulky it can also generally get the roost of before dying. The edge it has other Mantine is a combination of more physical bulk, better speed, U turn and the ability to actually hit decently hard even without investment. It,unlike Mantine, also doesn't have a 4x weakness. No HDB hurt it alot but that's a problem all but 2 defoggers have. The chance to para any opponent that makes contact with it is great. Moltres honestly fullfills a similar role like zapdos but moltres has some other problems and advantages that I won't go into now. Zapdos lives things like a Swellow facade ( even with stealth Rock, I think) and OHKOs back with tBolt. It doesn't hurt grounds but if thats an argument you could also say Mantine can't hurt grasses or stuff like Lapras. Hope this helped
Yes, it help! Thanks for the clarification! I understand a bit more why people will use Zapdos now, and I agree about most of your arguments, but one trigger me a little bit, the "Mantine don't touch grass", OK, it's not super effective, but it's not total immunity, I would more talk about the water immunities, like other Mantine, Gastrodon... Because Mantine doesn't have Toxic anymore. But, Mantine has Ice Beam and Air Slash, that you can put easily on your set! All Mantine need is Scald, Roost + Defog, and that's all. I personally really like Haze, but I would not be surprised with a double stab Air Slash + Scald or an Ice Beam on Mantine.
About Moltres, I really like it, but it's a bit more complicated for him with the x4 weakness to rock moves.

As you may notice in the replays, Sableye was easily MVP of the team. On top of blocking opposing Spin, Sableye also packs the ability to cripple most physical attackers with burn and annoy defensive mons with Taunt and Knock Off. Between burn and Recover, Sable is one of RU's premier defensive walls despite its meager stats; however, my Sable packs 100 SpD EVs to better 1v1 certain mons like lead Froslass, and still perfomed perfectly well in its role.
Sableye is Annoying: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspru-1487893078
About Sableye, I tried it at the really beginning of the tier because I was hyped to play this. Honestly, Taunt + Recover + WoW is just insane. His support presence can be a very decisive thing in many games.
I like the fact he can also check the double STAB of Medicham, which is really strong imo, or other defensive mons like Hitmontop, Milktank, (Because it's more common to see Thick Fat), Chansey, Claydol... And also more offensive fighting mons, like the other Hitmons, Hariyama or Machamp. when he's full Def, even if you need to pay attention to Stone Edge/Earthquake.
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
Wanted to bring up a couple of things that I don't see too many people talking about.

:ss/raichu:
This thing is an absolute beast and one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier right now, Grass Knot is extremely good coverage for Electrics in the tier and it also gets Focus Blast for Lix, Chansey, Cradily, Abomasnow, and other fringier Electric checks. There are very few things that fit on offensive teams that are defensively safe (Torterra is best for this but there isn't much else). Nasty Plot sets are the best imo, they can be tough to set up but once you do can sweep a lot of teams outright and almost always takes down at least one mon if not more. Volt Switch sets are also good to keep up momentum and pair great with stuff that abuses Chansey and the like. NP Thunder sets are also like Rain's one redeeming quality which is something I guess.

:ss/torterra:
Stealth Rock Torterra being good is well documented at this point but I would like to give Offensive sets a little bit of a shout out as well. Torterra is generally difficult for much of the meta to actually KO, so a Specially Defensive Swords Dance spread has been working out well for me as a way to let Torterra become quite threatening on its own if one has another Stealth Rocker. Defensive Pokemon struggle to hurt you and you set up on things like Lix, Zap, some Rhyp sets, Aggron, and Hitmontop (which I will get to in a second) You also still obviously check Kingdra, and with full Spdef investment you don't even need Yache Berry to tank an Ice Beam (also why are yall running Ice Beam Kingdra its really not worth imo since Tort eats anyway and losing Agility is a huge L). I must admit I haven't tried them yet but full offensive Rock Polisher sets also look good as a way to turn Kingdra into immediate offensive momentum. Grass STAB is also fantastic at the moment so any powerful Grass-types should be welcome on most teams.

:ss/moltres:
Offensive Moltres is hard as hell for the tier to switch into and has some unique tricks up its sleeve that make it a very unique offensive threat. Namely, Moltres can irritate the entire tier via its STABS and U-turn; Moltres is great in a Voltturn chain with something that threatens common Stealth Rockers like Rhyp (Oh hi Raichu), and its generally difficult for the tier to switch into its STAB moves. The last move can be Roost or Will-O-Wisp; Roost is great to stick around but Wisp has huge upside in punishing things such as Absol and Rhyp. Wisp just requires more support to its harder to fit on a team and basically requires Hwish Mime or really solid hazard removal.

:ss/hitmontop:
I have to talk about this because this thing is hugely overrated by a vast majority of the playerbase and is a poor choice for most teams these days in my opinion. Both Intimitop and Technitop are poor spinners who both lose to very common Pokemon in the tier. Intimitop is at least slightly functional as it does help to stave off general Physical hits, but its easy to wall with common Pokemon like Zapdos and only switches into the things that its supposed to check like once at most, not to mention it can't spin on any of the tiers Ghosts and it can't threaten the Pixies well enough to keep rocks off vs. them either. Technitop, meanwhile, has horrible coverage issues, can't switch into anything, is still walled by the birds, and is still spinblocked by Sableye. It also can't kill hyper offense effectively at all; yes it irritates Shark and Absol but other common set up Pokemon like Kingdra and Rhyperior ruin it as does Screens and the common screeners that are the pixies and Xatu. I struggle to put Hitmontop above C rank and it is recieving far more usage than it deserves. Zapdos and Mantine are both far better forms of hazard control if thats what you are looking for.
 
Wanted to bring up a couple of things that I don't see too many people talking about.

:ss/raichu:
This thing is an absolute beast and one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier right now, Grass Knot is extremely good coverage for Electrics in the tier and it also gets Focus Blast for Lix, Chansey, Cradily, Abomasnow, and other fringier Electric checks. There are very few things that fit on offensive teams that are defensively safe (Torterra is best for this but there isn't much else). Nasty Plot sets are the best imo, they can be tough to set up but once you do can sweep a lot of teams outright and almost always takes down at least one mon if not more. Volt Switch sets are also good to keep up momentum and pair great with stuff that abuses Chansey and the like. NP Thunder sets are also like Rain's one redeeming quality which is something I guess.

:ss/torterra:
Stealth Rock Torterra being good is well documented at this point but I would like to give Offensive sets a little bit of a shout out as well. Torterra is generally difficult for much of the meta to actually KO, so a Specially Defensive Swords Dance spread has been working out well for me as a way to let Torterra become quite threatening on its own if one has another Stealth Rocker. Defensive Pokemon struggle to hurt you and you set up on things like Lix, Zap, some Rhyp sets, Aggron, and Hitmontop (which I will get to in a second) You also still obviously check Kingdra, and with full Spdef investment you don't even need Yache Berry to tank an Ice Beam (also why are yall running Ice Beam Kingdra its really not worth imo since Tort eats anyway and losing Agility is a huge L). I must admit I haven't tried them yet but full offensive Rock Polisher sets also look good as a way to turn Kingdra into immediate offensive momentum. Grass STAB is also fantastic at the moment so any powerful Grass-types should be welcome on most teams.

:ss/moltres:
Offensive Moltres is hard as hell for the tier to switch into and has some unique tricks up its sleeve that make it a very unique offensive threat. Namely, Moltres can irritate the entire tier via its STABS and U-turn; Moltres is great in a Voltturn chain with something that threatens common Stealth Rockers like Rhyp (Oh hi Raichu), and its generally difficult for the tier to switch into its STAB moves. The last move can be Roost or Will-O-Wisp; Roost is great to stick around but Wisp has huge upside in punishing things such as Absol and Rhyp. Wisp just requires more support to its harder to fit on a team and basically requires Hwish Mime or really solid hazard removal.

:ss/hitmontop:
I have to talk about this because this thing is hugely overrated by a vast majority of the playerbase and is a poor choice for most teams these days in my opinion. Both Intimitop and Technitop are poor spinners who both lose to very common Pokemon in the tier. Intimitop is at least slightly functional as it does help to stave off general Physical hits, but its easy to wall with common Pokemon like Zapdos and only switches into the things that its supposed to check like once at most, not to mention it can't spin on any of the tiers Ghosts and it can't threaten the Pixies well enough to keep rocks off vs. them either. Technitop, meanwhile, has horrible coverage issues, can't switch into anything, is still walled by the birds, and is still spinblocked by Sableye. It also can't kill hyper offense effectively at all; yes it irritates Shark and Absol but other common set up Pokemon like Kingdra and Rhyperior ruin it as does Screens and the common screeners that are the pixies and Xatu. I struggle to put Hitmontop above C rank and it is recieving far more usage than it deserves. Zapdos and Mantine are both far better forms of hazard control if thats what you are looking for.
So about hitmontop. I agree with a lot you said about it. But zapdos and mantine have some problems with hazard control hitmontop doesn't have. First of all hitmontop resists rock instead of being weak to it which helps in switching in. Not being weak to rock means it can stay in and switch in into basically any stealth rocker which zapdos and mantine can't do. As a spinner it's outclassed by the best spinner in the tier imo, Claydol. Claydol has all the advantages over the defoggers hitmontop has combined with better support moves like rocks of it own, a better typing and teleport. It has better bulk in general and pretty decent offensive coverage. It switches into all the fighting types ( well, all but machamp and gallade) and uses them for its own rocks. Unlike hitmontop it actually stays around for a game. As most spinners it gets absolutely walled by spiritomb, sableye and froslass. So yeah I think it's just better at spinning than hitmontop, which is why I'd say that unless your team is really weak to water already it's a better idea to use Claydol as a spinner. The defoger we have in the tier are also a good option for hazard removal. And yes at the end this was just an excuse to talk about Claydol. Hitmonchan is an interesting spinner as well but I think it might be better to talk about all the spinner we have in the tier as a whole In a different post
 
So about hitmontop. I agree with a lot you said about it. But zapdos and mantine have some problems with hazard control hitmontop doesn't have. First of all hitmontop resists rock instead of being weak to it which helps in switching in. Not being weak to rock means it can stay in and switch in into basically any stealth rocker which zapdos and mantine can't do. As a spinner it's outclassed by the best spinner in the tier imo, Claydol. Claydol has all the advantages over the defoggers hitmontop has combined with better support moves like rocks of it own, a better typing and teleport. It has better bulk in general and pretty decent offensive coverage. It switches into all the fighting types ( well, all but machamp and gallade) and uses them for its own rocks. Unlike hitmontop it actually stays around for a game. As most spinners it gets absolutely walled by spiritomb, sableye and froslass. So yeah I think it's just better at spinning than hitmontop, which is why I'd say that unless your team is really weak to water already it's a better idea to use Claydol as a spinner. The defoger we have in the tier are also a good option for hazard removal. And yes at the end this was just an excuse to talk about Claydol. Hitmonchan is an interesting spinner as well but I think it might be better to talk about all the spinner we have in the tier as a whole In a different post
Agree on the fact Claydol is better, but you missed to mention the fact that Hitmontop doesn't have the Ghost weakness, and resists both Dark (Knock Off) and Bug (U-turn) moves, which can be a good advantage compared to Claydol. Intimidate is also something really interesting. The thing that makes it struggle the most is the loss of Foresight who was the best way to Spin on Ghost types, and I'm not sure Thief is that scary for them.

this thing is hugely overrated by a vast majority of the playerbase
I would be very interested by seeing the usages of this mon, because I think it's a bit "too much" to say it's "hugely overrated". I saw a lot more of Claydol and Sandslash than Hitmontop.
but its easy to wall with common Pokemon like Zapdos
Once more, I think a majority of Hitmontop has Stone Edge or Rock Slide, and with the pressure of the rocks, I wouldn't say it's "easily walled by zapdos" honestly. Yes, we saw better, but Zapdos isn't free to switch.
If it's a defensive Hitmontop, and we assume it's a Full HP, Full Def Zapdos, that I don't think is a real spread but anyway ;
0 Atk Hitmontop Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Zapdos: 122-144 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 87.2% chance to 3HKO
it can't threaten the Pixies well enough to keep rocks off vs. them
"The pixies", do you mean the Fairy types in the tier (If not, sorry for my misunderstanding)? Like? Mawile, Mr.Mime and Wigglytuff ? OK, but, if we forget that Mr.Mime is the only commonly used one, the fear of a Bullet Punch on Mr.Mime can pressure it, and Wiggly and Mawile are both neutral to Close Combat, can't switch into and are both slower than him...

So yes, Hitmontop is not the best spinner, Claydol is, and Sandslash is another option, and it will never be the best hazard remover, but I feel like you hugely underrate this mon.
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
Thanks for the response, just gonna clear up a few things here about why I still stand by my previous statement.

Once more, I think a majority of Hitmontop has Stone Edge or Rock Slide, and with the pressure of the rocks, I wouldn't say it's "easily walled by zapdos" honestly. Yes, we saw better, but Zapdos isn't free to switch.
If it's a defensive Hitmontop, and we assume it's a Full HP, Full Def Zapdos, that I don't think is a real spread but anyway ;
This is still overall favorable to Zapdos; even if it isnt Max/Max (and none are) it eats and roost stalls because it outruns Hitmontop. Others like Mantine and Moltres are for sure a lot less surefire but Top has to predict perfectly in order to abuse this properly and frankly defensive Top is so easy for other very common, generally bulky Pokemon like Tort, Arcanine, and Sableye to abuse that it doesn't really change much about this in this regard.

Agree on the fact Claydol is better, but you missed to mention the fact that Hitmontop doesn't have the Ghost weakness, and resists both Dark (Knock Off) and Bug (U-turn) moves, which can be a good advantage compared to Claydol. Intimidate is also something really interesting. The thing that makes it struggle the most is the loss of Foresight who was the best way to Spin on Ghost types, and I'm not sure Thief is that scary for them.
The defensive utility is cool on paper but I encourage you to look at what Pokemon are actually using the moves in question. By far the two most common users of Knock Off are Sableye, who Top wants absolutely nothing to do with, and Absol, who always carries coverage to hit Hitmontop, meaning that it's far from safe in that regard. Even other fringier Knock Off users, like Hariyama or Gallade, are not bothered by Hitmontop at all. The same goes for the users of U-turn; common users of U-turn are Pokemon that threaten Hitmontop such as Swellow, Zapdos, and Moltres; the one common U-turn user you kind of deal with is Vital Sprit Scarf Primeape, and absorbing U-turn isn't really worth much when Top is hugely threatened by common Pokemon such as Exploud, Kingdra, and Raichu, as well as the aforementioned threats above. Top also has no recovery to speak of so many of these mons can just switch out and come in again later.

"The pixies", do you mean the Fairy types in the tier (If not, sorry for my misunderstanding)?
This is potentially my bad but I was referring to Uxie and Mesprit (I guess "Lake Guardians" would have been better), who are both Stealth Rockers who present major problems for Hitmontop.

I would be very interested by seeing the usages of this mon, because I think it's a bit "too much" to say it's "hugely overrated". I saw a lot more of Claydol and Sandslash than Hitmontop.
This could potentially be just me but I'm around 1400 for RU and usually hover in the top 50 on ladder and up there Hitmontop is by far the most common form of hazard removal that I have encountered. I don't want to endlessly quote you but I will just finish with the fact that I have yet to see a team that has been made better by Hitmontop's presence, nor have I been inclined in the least to put it on the team. Hitmontop is a pretty bad Pokemon in RU and I will stand by that.
 
Back here to talk a bit more about three pokemons I really find awesome and no one really talks about (except for useless talks, hi Specs Vaporeon (just kidding, but not really)) and who need in my opinion, more visibility: Bulky waters in the actual metagame. I'm not going to talk about their defensive base stats because they are pretty similar, I'm just going to put them for information.

First one, I want to talk about the best of them :


95/80/110
Some of you mention this mon in a long list of other pokemon, without really explaining why this thing is such a threat. First of all, the first thing that stands him from the others, is his double typing. The fighting resistance adds to Fire/Water/Ice/Steel resistances, allow him to be pretty interesting against almost the entire fighting type in the tier. With the loss of Thunder Punch in a lot of their movepool, they need Knock Off if they want to make reliable damages to the King. The psychic resistance is more situational but we can mention he resists both Medicham strong STABs.
Talking about his typing, the inconvenience of being Psychic, is the weakness of both dark moves and U-turn. Ghosts are pretty forgettable and the only thing who's scary and who have a ghost move is Rotom, and he'll almost every time hit Thunderbolt to make more damages or Volt switch... Sharpedo and Houndoom are both pretty annoying for him with their dark STABs, while for other bulky ones, they are less threatening.
The other mentionable thing about the King is his access to a nice recovering move, Slack Off, to great coverage with Fire Blast and Focus Blast, the access to both Yawn and Thunder Wave, Nasty Plot if you want a bulkier mon with great offense presence, and Dragon Tail. He lost Teleport, which is a big thing, but he kept Future Sight, to pressure the opponent team.
Finally, Regenerator. I don't think I really need to explain why with Future Sight, Slack Off, and his bulk, this ability is a real bless for this mon.


111/68/82
My favorite mon right here, please welcome the cutest slug in the world! First, Gastrodon also has excellent double typing, which gives him total immunity to electric moves and resistance to Stealth Rocks, in return for neutrality to Ice moves, and a double weakness to Grass moves. Being immune to Electric moves made him a really good choice if you need a water typing but are afraid of mons like Electivire, Raichu, Rotom or Zapdos. With neutrality to Ice moves, even if you don't care about the freeze with Scald, you need to pay attention to Lapras and his Freeze Dry, which is common to counter Kingdra. The most annoying thing about his typing is the fact Grass moves are a pain for him. We can't say the Grass types in the BDSM RU are that good, but situational pokemons like Abomasnow, which is a good Aurora Veil setter, or pokemons like Venusaur, Shiftry and Victreebel in Sun teams are going to make you suffer. Vileplume is also pretty annoying when you would like to come on his Poison moves. About the Grass Knot coverage of some Electric mons, don't worry, this thing is as light as an obese feather, and doesn't take much damages.
To be able to handle his biggest flaw, I honestly really like to play the Rindo Berry on Gastrodon. With a little investment in attack, you are able to OHKO greedy Ninetales, (with Earthquake) who want to Solar Beam turn 1 and punish them. I really invite you to play Earthquake over Earth Power because I think it's better for him. With Scald and Recover, this thing is able to carry entire games. With the loss of Toxic, you can choose for the last move between Ice Beam for coverage, Yawn (Which is funny with Rindo Berry against sun teams), or Clear Smog.
About his ability, Storm Drain is such an amazing way to make his Ground-type better while boosting his damages with Scald/Earth Power/Ice Beam or whatever you have chosen to put on his movepool.


130/60/95
Exit the idea about an offensive Vaporeon, this mon is also really interesting but in a different way. About all the others pokemons I show you today, it's the only one who doesn't have double typing, which is also really good. Don't worry about anything other than Electrics and Grass mons, this thing just needs to be paired with a Grass mon, or a Dragon mon... (Just kidding, don't play CritDra or Altaria please) to compensate for his flaws. Vaporeon is not going to be able to heal itself as simply as the other two mons we saw, his only decent recovery move is Wish. A little bit more complicated to heal yourself, but a really big advantage to heal your team, with his 130 BS in HP, he's going to be allowed to heal entirely your mates. To complete his movepool, Protect will be a need to allow him to heal properly, which make you choose as last move between Ice Beam for coverage, Yawn to be annoying af, Roar, Haze or why not Acid Armor.
Vaporeon has Water Absorb, which is a bit useless, but which allows him to totally wall the water mons who don't have other coverage.

About these ones:
&

85/70/140 & 130/80/95
Going to be real quick on the two because everyone talks about them. First of all, Mantine, Water Absorb, Defogger, awesome... I can mention the fact he can have Air Slash, which is a good way to hit Grass mons with STAB like I already mentioned. His double typing is a bit weird, making him weak to rocks even if he removes them, being immune to Ground moves, but not really to Ground types, because they almost always have Rock coverage... And a double weakness to Electrics moves, which can be annoying. This time, I don't recommend playing Wacan Berry, because honestly, this isn't as good as Rindo Berry Gastrodon. Last but not least, this thing is the only one in this list of mons which is a great check to sun teams.
About the LochNess monster... Honestly this thing is pure trash compared to other Bulky Waters I presented. The only reason this thing is played is because of Shell Armor + Spdef natural bulk who allow him, with Freeze Dry, to destroy Kingdra. As long as CritDra would be in RU, this thing will be played. Once CritDra will be banned, other pokemons I listed here will be better in almost any points. RIP.


I'm sooooorry, I know this post is already awful to read BUT I saw Sputnik answer and just want to end the conversation properly!

Even other fringier Knock Off users, like Hariyama or Gallade
Ayyy no, I can't let you say that Hariyama is a "fringier" Knock Off user ! And you forget Machamp, which I think make enough users to be a good point imo, but I understand what you're saying.

I was referring to Uxie and Mesprit
Ahah sorry, maybe as a French I just don't get the reference, but yes, 100% agree with that. Just to mention it, I think that with Uxie in the tier, except for random Healing Wish stuffs, Mesprit is going to be a non-viable pick honestly, but I can be wrong !

This could potentially be just me but I'm around 1400 for RU and usually hover in the top 50 on ladder and up there Hitmontop is by far the most common form of hazard removal that I have encountered.
This is the reason why I like to discuss my minds, because I'm near to this ranking too, and I saw like 1/2 Hitmontop versus a ton of Claydol and a bit more of Sandslash than Hitmontop... But if people choose Top instead of Claydol in general, I would definitely be surprised honestly!

That's all for me, sorry for all that lol!
 
Last edited:
Screenshot_20220121-011006_Chrome.jpg
Been using this team quite a lot (click on the image for the paste), it gives consistent results always.
Main problems I would say are the fact that Hariyama lets Venomoth setup on it, which leads to losing as I don't have an actual Venomoth check. I also don't have a good Mr.Mime switch in at all, but I usually don't have any issues RKilling it.
Now, the main sauce of the team, these two:
Sprxym297.gif

Amazing mon overall, but I'm using a very particular bulky set to use its good attributes, specially the fact that it has thick fat, giving me a good MU againist stuff like Houndoom. I have Fake Out on it, but I might just drop it for a move to hit Venomoth with, since it's setup fodder againist it.
252 SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 124 HP / 252 SpD Hariyama: 289-342 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 124 HP / 252 SpD Thick Fat Hariyama in Sun: 289-342 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
^ This calc is very good specially if running Stone Edge, which also hits Venomoth.

But, the main offensive pressure sits in this boy:
swellow.png

Oh Swellow. Swellow relies on it's fast speed to hit hard with stab Facade, or U-turn out of danger into another teammate. Spikes specially help Swellow turn into a killing machine, only RKilled by Scarfers such as Mr.Mime. Quick Attack helps finish off mons at low hp such as Kingdra or Venomoth.

Notes: I'm currently thinking about my weakness to Rhyperior and Kingdra, as Rhyperior comes pretty free on Swellow, since nobody on my team wants to eat Earthquake / Stone Edge. My best bet is to probably drop Froslass for Spdef Torterra, but it's uncertain.

I'm sorry for any errors in my post, this is quite literally my first post in Smogon LOL
 

Wanka

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UUPL Champion
bing bong

A46561E0-2E10-49D4-92FF-63E94EAA6A58.jpeg


Might do a vr at some point but sun is pretty fun rn and I’ve been mashing this sauce on the ladder a bit. Kind of interesting to see Ninetales ranked high in Eve’s rankings because it’s a pretty good standalone mon. I didn’t want to overcomplicate with it so I just ran no two attacks with hypnosis to use in a pinch if I need to try and get out of a rough spot. Modest might be cool on it Altho I’m def too scared to try. Vic is just the best sun abuser imo getting access to weather ball and maximizing growth potential with a mixed set. Zap just seemed like a weirdly good pivot to me for a sun team. I don’t have fog because I have a fucking claydol, but t wave seemed like an ok filler, could maybe run volt or peck ig. Idek if chansey even checks specs zard and I cba to calc rn cus mobile, but I’ve seen what specs overheat does to eviolite Chansey and I’m sure it gets spanked. If u can’t get at least 1 during a game w zard then ur doing something wrong. Claydol is like really fucking shit, but it kinda works with what I have seeing as it role compresses pretty nicely. Primary fighting resist, rocker, spinner, volt immunity, teleport, momentum. You get a lot in one set. It hits like a small infant tho so it’s kinda annoying and ends up just getting smacked trying to control hazards and port out. It does it’s job tho so like word. Scarf lee felt right for me as a fast fighting cleaner with reckless hjk that kinda smacks this tier. I have Enough momentum grabbing with zap and claydol and lee still has ok coverage ig. Edge quake with cc in the back for 100% acc functions quite nicely in the meta.

Nueve pepe (Ninetales) @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Hypnosis

Mussolini (Victreebel) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 216 Atk / 40 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Growth
- Power Whip
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball

Zapdos-Jalar (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 80 SpD / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- U-turn
- Roost
- Thunder Wave

Fiya stick (Charizard) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Flamethrower
- Air Slash
- Solar Beam

Fleshlight (Claydol) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Psychic
- Teleport

ja morant (Hitmonlee) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
[\hide]


I highkey think kingdra or shark needs to be looked at ASAP btw. :psycry:
 
Very nice tier list Eve
I played a few games in the tier and basically your S tier is what i needed to be gone after alpha state finish.
:dp/kingdra:
Kingdra (wich is dont see to much outside of HO) is a pain to counter specially under screens. Screens give Kingdra the bulk needed to use effective the Double Dance Set or simply clean trought defence after a crit boost. Only "counter" are Lapras and maybe spdef Torterra.

:dp/ninetales:
Sun is strong when his the only automatic weather running around (Aboma's Hail isnt a detteriment or anything) and make a strong archetype rn. Few check outside of things like Altaria.

:dp/venomoth: :dp/exploud:
I put both in the same room whitout of spaming sound base STAB to break or sweep. Things like Scarf Mime and Bastiodon exist tranks to Soundproof. Also Exploud has started running Soundproof and using Shadowball in his Specs Sets to blank opp. Exploud.

In the good side, this meta is fun to play outside of the broken mons. Balance, Stall and Offence has room in the tier..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eve

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top