Metagame BDSP UU (Tier Shifts @ Post #107)

TyCarter · Oct 4, 2022

Grabby said:
I definitely am a fan with the Raikou ban, since you can't really guarantee a solid way to answer it. The Grounds of the tier just can't risk switching in to Scald burns (the most common is Flygon, who already has issues with power on its Scarf set), and the Grasses that would otherwise handle it great can't reliably force it out (Raikou just PP stalls their STABs with Pressure). If Raikou begins to click CM then it's really difficult to stop, especially if it has Substitute, since it outspeeds most offense in the tier.

Celebi for me is either a solid pivot or a Nasty Plot sweeper (though it can also be a fine Choiced attacker, the difference between it and Shaymin is Psychic STAB vs lack of Psychic typing). I will concede that it is very versatile, but to me, it's not unbeatable in any of their incarnations. Nasty Plot is probably the controversial set, but to me, if you can't handle it, you don't seem to have decent speed control and/or are playing too passively to give it setup opportunity. The main counter to this point is that if you run into a Specs set, then you're gonna take a lot of damage. However, that argument could also apply to many other attackers (such as Garchomp/Infernape in OU). Generally, you're gonna build a team with speed control sufficient to handle Celebi (the most-used Pokemon is Scarf Flygon, and what is its most spammable move?).

Also is there like a description each of the suspect test voters gave for not banning Blastoise; I still kinda think it's dumb/restrictive on teambuilding.

Suspect Voters are usually not required to give a reasoning for their vote. (This is because the one time it was done, it was met with controversy from what I remember)

As for why, my best guess was most likely to do with trends during PL where fat teams or offense were ran a decent amount and had solid success that happen to generally be able to answer shell smash toise defensively or not give it a chance to set up to a decent degree.

Tbolt · Oct 17, 2022

Grabby's BDSP UU Team Dump

I've played BDSP UU ever since the beta was made available (the Salamence/Donphan/Nidoking era) and have a ton of UU teams in my teambuilder. Considering I was just knocked out of the Sendoff Tour, I figured that I would dump all of my teams as a way to both distribute the teams I used over the 10 months I have played this tier, as well as a view into the history of the tier over its lifespan.

Salamence Era:
:salamence:

- SalaCress Bulky Offense

This team was made when UU was first emergent as a tier, and I looked through the teambuilder and saw a number of great mons available; Salamence, Cresselia, Metagross, and more! I simply slapped on a bunch of these strong mons as a way to learn what was good and what wasn't.

This team actually started with a Dragon Dance Salamence but I moved it to Choice Scarf since it was more consistent.

What I learned through this team:

Salamence is broken and had very few counters; basically just Granbull, who wasn't otherwise a good Pokemon, and Cresselia, which had its flaws and was very passive. Thankfully I wasn't the only one and Mence was quickbanned soon after.
This team really struggled with the wallbreaking pair of Heracross and Entei; I included Arcanine as a shared resist to their scarier STABs but Arcanine was too weak to Stealth Rock to really help out against them.
I wasn't super happy with Tentacruel, but I also wasn't really sure how to EV it in order for it to be really effective.
Cresselia was really passive without Calm Mind, and the prominence of Metagross, Drapion, and Heracross in the tier didn't help it.
I actually became a fan of Drapion and Metagross thanks to this team since the two of them were really consistent.

Replays I found with this team:

Post-Salamence Ban:
:cresselia:

- GyaraCress Bulky Offense

After Salamence's ban, I didn't feel like building a new team and simply swapped out Salamence for DD Gyarados. On the one hand, Gyarados did provide me some recourse against Heracross and Entei, but in exchange I lost a good bit of speed control.

What I learned through this team:

Most of what came from my previous team held up the same here, since most of the mons were the same as well.
I started with Aqua Tail on Gyara for the slightly harder hit but moved back to Waterfall for the better accuracy.
Even though I had 3 Pokemon who collectively handled Entei and Heracross, their weakness to Stealth Rocks (and Gyarados's aversion to Sacred Fire burns) meant that they couldn't do this efffectively enough to be consistent.
Cresselia being my catch-all Special check could put me into sticky situations vs Nasty Plot Porygon-Z or Yanmega.

Replays I found with this team:

RMT I wrote up about this team: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bdsp-uu-cress-bulky-offense-balanced-team.3695957/

- Entei + SD Heracross Offense

After repeatedly playing against the offensive core of Entei and Heracross, I decided that I wanted to use that core myself. I also wanted to use Nidoqueen as an offensive Stealth Rock setter, and Milotic and Granbull were what I saw as the most reliable Entei and Heracross switch-ins at the time (though Granbull should've definitely had more Defense investment). Finally, I used Zapdos as my hazard control and as a pivot (though in this role Flygon was entirely superior). Overall, I liked this team a lot more than the prior two, but it had its flaws that could get exploited through good play.

What I learned through this team:

Entei and Heracross were really strong together. The main counters to Entei are Water-types like Milotic and Swampert, and Heracross comes in on them and absolutely dominates them. In fact, Heracross is actually fine with switching in on Scald, since getting burned by it takes away a piece of information that the opponent can use to play around it.
Swords Dance Heracross is an unwallable monster.
Granbull really didn't cut it as a Heracross switch-in (though, again, I should've invested in Defense instead of Attack).
Nidoqueen provided interesting utility since it switched into Scarf Rotom-Cut/Heat early game and dissuaded Trick, but otherwise sometimes struggled in longer games.
Zapdos was really bulky but sometimes really passive. Its U-turn was great, but a Defogger that was weak to Stealth Rocks could put the team in uncomfortable scenarios such as repeatedly being unable to clear hazards.

Replays I found with this team:

- Entei + SD Heracross Offense 2

After a lot of experimentation with the introduction of Shaymin into the tier as well as other mons that I felt would fit in the core, this team is what I would consider the "second edition" of the Entei + SD Heracross team that I built. I EV'd Shaymin to just outspeed Heracross and Adamant Entei (which I believed was a "good enough" Speed tier, since it still outsped Jolly Heracross), while SubSeeding everyone else. Additionally, it was a really great Pokemon to use against Scarf Rotom-Cut, who was pretty common at that time. Finally, I added Scarf Flygon, the best Pokemon in the tier. This team notably forwent Stealth Rock and hazard control of any kind, so I don't consider it a great team, but was mostly a product of me experimenting with some different mons in cores I had already built.

What I learned through this team:

Scarf Flygon is a really nice Pokemon to have, since it helps you revenge kill nearly any scary offensive Pokemon around.
Shaymin's talents were really nice to have, and I would go on to build more teams with it, its great bulk, and its pure Grass-typing in mind. At the time, Shaymin was considered banworthy, but considering the number of Grasses in the tier nowadays (namely Celebi and Roserade), Shaymin has since taken more of a back seat in the tier.

Replays I found with this team:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspuu-1546131625

- Sun + Spikes Offense

I made this team at 2 am, and to my surprise, it didn't outright suck. I figured that since Sun was seen as a problem when the tier was created, I would try it out myself. I got the idea of Custap Endure Forretress as a silly idea that had where my line of logic was "I want to use Custap Berry on Forretress, but what if I'm not at full HP because of hazards? I know, Endure."

What I learned through this team:

A lot of what I learned through this team was documented in the RMT that I wrote for this team.

Replays I found with this team:

- Hippo + Umbreon Balance

The previous teams I had built were more offensive in nature, so I wanted to create a team that was more balanced. The goal of this team was to force passive damage on my opponent and wear them down for my offense in the rear. Hippowdon's Sand Stream was a big part of this, since it rubbed damage into opposing attackers not named Flygon (whom Hippowdon completely stuffed). Umbreon was the necessary Special counterpart to Hippo. I used more Shaymin on this team since it was a great answer into opposing Water-types while not immediately throwing out Heracross, Missy stuffed Forre's Rapid Spin attempts while scaring it away, and also spread Paralysis for Heracross to abuse. Finally, Flygon is Flygon.

What I learned through this team:

Leech Protect Shaymin was an underrated gem that allowed me to simultaneously heal and force passive damage in one fell swoop.
The fact that I deemed this Mismagius an adequate Heracross answer really showcases how limited the options were against Heracross.
To be honest, Heracross wasn't always necessary on this team; maybe something like a bulky Water could help here since it also spreads burns with Scald, though it also would make me weaker to Heracross.
This team doesn't have its own hazard removal, so against hazard stacking teams it'll be at a huge disadvantage.
Against Shell Smash Cloyster in particular, this team has a pretty hard time since it outspeeds Flygon and I don't have great answers into it. At least Blastoise is checked by Umbreon.

Replays I found with this team:

Post-Heracross Ban:

For the most part, I like the later structures that I had created, and wanted to reuse them. I had received word that Zangoose was picking up usage, so I decided to replace Heracross with Zangoose and test my structures.

:hippowdon:

- Hippo + Umbreon Balance 2

Basically the same structure as the previous team, except Heracross swapped out and Zangoose swapped in. Additionally, Mismagius's role wasn't as necessary with Heracross gone and I figured that Drapion's typing and ability (not to mention Knock Off and Toxic) would be useful on this team to handle Celebi and Kingdra, two Pokemon I saw as potential problems to this team.

What I learned through this team:

This team is still really weak to the offensive Waters.
Zangoose's defensive utility is even more limited than Heracross's, and it feels like I'm playing down 6-5 for a lot of the game until I can generate a completely free turn for it. Even then, if I run into a Ghost-type, this Zangoose gets completely walled, and let's not forget that with Toxic Orb, it's killing itself. I should probably test a breaker that doesn't actively get worn down even without Sandstorm up.
I wish I could have tested Drapion more before its use on this team, but I felt it did better than Zangoose overall.

Replays I found with this team:

- Basic Body Odor (BO)

Also, around this time, Celebi had dropped into the tier and was generating some buzz for its coverage with Nasty Plot. I decided to create a Fire-Water-Grass core around it with Swampert and Entei, and fit other good stuffs Pokemon in Metagross, Mew, and ScarfGon. The team feels extremely comfortable and solid, although it is, again, super weak to the aforementioned offensive Waters. Maybe a revision with Milotic is better since it covers more of the tier defensively, especially since Raikou is now banned.

What I learned through this team:

I really enjoyed using Swampert because of its bulk and typing. Roar is great on it to rack up Stealth Rocks chip on Celebi that would love to use it as setup fodder. However, I will admit that as a bulky water, Milotic strictly outclasses it. However, I do enjoy Swampert's Roar over Milotic's Haze.
Nasty Plot Celebi is kinda nuts, since Lax takes a lot of damage from boosted Psychics and Leaf Storms. Recycle Lax won't shrug this thing off, and its defensive counterplay is fairly limited. Its base 100 Speed makes it contentious for an offensive Pokemon since the number of Pokemon that checks it is limited, but I think it is relatively fine (more fine than Blastoise at least *ah, how political I am about the freaking turtle*).

Replays I found with this team:

I didn't really build new teams after Raikou was banned, and so I rode into the Sendoff Tour ready to play my Basic BO team, my Hippo + Umbreon Balance 2, or my Sun + Spikes Offense teams, choosing them as I wanted. Unfortunately, I was eliminated round 1 (to, of course, offensive Water spam), so these teams won't have much purpose without a big UU tour coming up. Thus, I figured I would unleash my creations onto the player base and reuse some of these teams should a big UU tournament pop up. I really enjoyed playing UU since its creation, and hope to see more activity in this tier in the future.

Tbolt · Feb 19, 2023

It has been some time since the Sendoff Tour, and the results of the tour have given the UU Council a fresh insight on the tier. After some discussion, the UU Council unanimously believes that Celebi should be quickbanned from BDSP UU. Its Nasty Plot sweeper set had a limited number of checks that were heavily restrictive on teambuilding and battling. With Nasty Plot, Psychic, and a Grass-type move (usually Giga Drain or Leaf Storm), it would boost past and destroy defensive Pokemon such as Snorlax and Umbreon. Its final move would expand the number of Pokemon it would beat: Shadow Ball defeated Steel-types such as Metagross, Bronzong, and Registeel, while Dazzling Gleam defeated Drapion.

Meanwhile, the abundance of Milotic in order to deal with various threats in the metagame gives Celebi free opportunity to set up Nasty Plots or merely just throw out attacks to wear down its switch-ins for a Nasty Plot clean in the late game. Natural Cure only helps Celebi in this regard, since it can directly switch into Milotic and not care about Scald burns coming onto the field. This also holds true for other Pokemon that don't threaten Celebi too directly, such as Swampert, Empoleon, and Rotom-Mow.

The fashion in which Celebi dominated Water-types made it an excellent parter for other offensive Pokemon stymied by these waters. For instance, Entei was more free to spam its powerful Sacred Fire since the Waters that switched into Entei gave Celebi utterly free setup. In turn, Entei checked the Steel-types and Drapion that Celebi's coverage failed to beat.

Meanwhile, Celebi's base-100 Speed stat meant that it still outsped or tied many offensive Pokemon, such as Entei, Mew, Roserade, Shaymin and Porygon-Z. The common Choice Scarf Flygon could not come in on Celebi's Psychic safely with Stealth Rocks down, but Celebi would only be forced out and come back in later to set up and sweep in the late game.

A Celebi at high health could even survive the quad-effective U-turn to barrage Flygon's teammate coming in. In fact, Celebi's uninvested bulk was still enough to survive many supereffective attacks. Speed Boost Sharpedo's Dark Pulse was unlikely to KO Celebi at full HP, and Crobat was forced to run Attack investment, as otherwise the bat wouldn't KO Celebi after Rocks. This one set broke through many defensive cores while also making common offensive counterplay unreliable.

Thus, Nasty Plot Celebi warped both teambuilding and battling in UU, and is an unhealthy presence within the tier.

Celebi additionally had the ability to lock down offensive teams with a Choice Scarf set. This set takes advantage of Celebi's access to several useful moves for a Scarfer to have. U-turn allows it to maintain momentum for its team, while Healing Wish provided utility to heal a weakened sweeper for a second assault, such as Gyarados or Blastoise.

Choice Specs Celebi forwent setup for instant power. This set would have a harder time against Special walls, but in exchange most other Pokemon would be blown away by its powerful attacks. This set was not as popular as the prior two sets, but gave teams zero room for error when handling Celebi, requiring correct prediction to not get blown apart.

Of course, Celebi could also function as a great utility Pokemon on many teams. Its aforementioned ability to come in on Waters and Rotom-Mow made it a great Stealth Rock setter, given how common those Pokemon were in the metagame. Celebi would still be threatening to the opponent with STAB Future Sight, in conjunction with U-turn to bring in threatening teammates, or its own Grass STAB, to place severe offensive pressure on the opponent. For instance, Future Sight deters Poison-types like Crobat and Roserade from coming in, allowing Celebi to easily threaten damage with Leaf Storm. However, while this set was a healthy part of the tier, Celebi's ability to boost with Nasty Plot was not healthy.

TL;DR: Celebi's Nasty Plot set was already too much for the UU tier to handle, but its Scarf and Specs set gave it enough variety to make it very unhealthy for the tier.

Tagging Marty and/or Kris to implement these changes.

yonitet · Feb 19, 2023

Post Celebi UU

As most are aware, Celebi has had a chokehold on the UU meta for quite some time now. It's Nasty Plot set has dominated UU ever since it fell to the tier, and thanks to a general lack of good Steel types in the tier, it quite often got out of control incredibly quickly. One of the only reasons Celebi did not get banned any sooner is because of the dominance of U-Turn Flygon and Crobat. Despite it's 4x weakness however, Celebi was able to adapt with a bulky Nasty Plot set that lived U-Turn, and was able to KO the Milotics and Roserades that Flygon and Crobat would often bring out. The lack of good Steel types in the tier making it so one of the only good checks for Celebi is Metagross became so extremely exploitable to the point that Celebi began running Shadow Ball to hit every Steel for neutral, and the best Steel for super effective. The only Steel type that did not crumble to Celebi being Forretress meant nothing when Forretress could not hit it back for meaningful damage. Celebi became so oppressive to the point that Forretress started running Bug stab moves like Pin Missile and Bug Buzz.

Because of Celebi's auspicious defensive typing and stats, it's held back, and promoted the usage of many pokemon whom may now form the new, Post-Celebi UU meta. Let's address these gains and losses.

Gains

Milotic, Blastoise, Vaporeon
Classic Bulky Water types like Milotic and Vaporeon have now had their biggest counter banned. Celebi was an extremely important part of many offensive team's effort to break these bulky waters. With Celebi now gone, many offensive teams will find themselves unable to break down these bulky waters by blasting them away with powerful grass moves.

Quagsire will now be an extremely potent threat. with the best Grass type banned, and the biggest argument against running Quagsire being banned, it will now be an unbreakable part of many stall teams. Celebi was an extremely threatening pokemon against Quagsire, as it stopped all means of progress it could make thanks to it's resistances to Scald, Earthquake, and Natural Cure healing it of Toxic and Scald Burns.

Swampert has been struggling in the Celebi meta ever since the start. It's had a hard time making use of it's phenomenal traits due to it's free allowance to let in Celebi. While not weak, It's Ice Beams barely scratched Celebi, and it was forced to swap out immediately, lest it would risk getting OHKO'd.

Suicune will now be extremely dominant, as it will no longer have to shore up it's coverage with Ice Beam. Suicune is capable of setting up Calm Mind on most, if not all the Grass types in the tier; except for Celebi, who would outdamage Suicune's Calm Mind with Nasty Plot.

Roserade will now be an extremely important part of many, if not most offensive teams. With the rise of Bulky Waters, Grass types will be in a much higher demand. Roserade also appreciates Celebi's ban as it was both competition for the Grass type mantle, and an effective check thanks to it's higher speed over Roserade, and STAB Psychic.

Offensive Blastoise will now be extremely threatening, capable of destroying a large swath of teams. Celebi could use it's immense bulk to live +2 Ice Beam and stop a Blasoise Sweep. Now Blastoise will have even less checks, and might finally become banworthy in UU. (doubt)

Psychic types like Espeon and Cresselia have also gotten their biggest counter banned. With Celebi out of the picture, Psychic spam will be significantly more effective. Celebi could previously use it's great bulk to live their Psychic type offense and heal or maintain momentum with a super effective U-Turn.

Shaymin, Rotom-Mow, Sceptile
Auxiliary Grass types will now have less competition to contend with, and one less counter. Rotom-Mow will be an even more effective part of VoltTurn teams, and Shaymin will have less competition for a bulky Grass type niche on Balance and Stall. Sceptile's Leaf Storm and Focus Blast will now be significantly harder to switch into, and it will be significantly easier to pull off a successful SubSeed.

Machamp, Hariyama, Medicham, Gallade
Fighting Types will take the meta over by storm. Balance teams anchored around Bulky Waters like Milotic will find themselves destroyed by strong Fighting types who can smash through even Physically Defensive Milotic with ease. With Celebi gone, many teams will lack an adequate Fighting resist, and Roserade's middling bulk will lead to it getting obliterated by an onslaught of Fighting types.

With Celebi gone, the Slow Twins (Slowbro & Slowking) now do not have a counter who resists both their STAB's, hits them for super effective, and shrugs off their status with Natural Cure. Slow Twins will be especially good, as Psychic weak Grass types like Roserade will take over Celebi's niche on offensive teams. With their tremendous bulk, the Slow Twins will be a valuable asset as the usage of Fighting types like Machamp, Hariyama and Medicham take over the meta.

Hippowdon will now be a much more effective wall. With the most common Grass type (likely) being Roserade, who is neutral to earthquake, Hippowdon will find significantly more success in the post-celebi meta.

Stall is now significantly more viable. Celebi single handedly destroyed most stall teams not using the likes of Drapion and Umbreon. With it's great natural bulk, Giga Drain and Nasty Plot, many stall teams found themselves unable to wall Celebi whatsoever, as even Chansey couldn't withstand Celebi's GIga Drain, which would outheal Seismic Toss after a boost.

Losses

Entei, Arcanine, Rotom-Heat, Torkoal, Moltres, Houndoom, Typhlosion
EVERY VIABLE FIRE TYPE IS NOW WORSE
Celebi provided a key niche for offensive teams stacking pokemon like Choice Scarf Flygon and Choice Band Entei. These teams are completely anchored around a Grass or Electric type who can KO Milotic and other Bulky Waters. Celebi provided an extremely important answer to Milotic's Scalds, as well as an important resistance to the plenty of earthquake users in the tier. Hippowdon now becomes impossible to break with this archetype, as Rotom-Mow doesn't heal in it's sand and is easily worn down, Shaymin does not fit on offensive teams well, and Roserade is neutral to earthquake, and has pitiful physical defense. With Celebi's ban, these teams stacking Fire types will be unable to make any significant progress against any of Milotic, Hippowdon, Swampert, Quagsire, Suicune, Cresselia, and Tentacruel.

Drapion, Honchkrow, Absol
Offensive Dark Types were used to hold the tier together from Celebi's onslaught. with it's ban, these Dark types will find their biggest niche neutralized, and their effectiveness will drop significantly.

Final Words
Overall, Celebi's ban is a welcome one, and it will create a huge change in UU's meta. The most consistent archetype is significantly nerfed, and some of the best offensive pokemon have had their best partner removed. Hope is not lost for offensive teams however. Strong Fighting types are sure to rise and blow apart Milotic and Hippowdon anchored balance teams, as well as Slowbro and Slowking anchored stall teams. This meta is really fun and should be played more often.

Cya~ <3

TyCarter · Apr 24, 2023

BDSP UU Open just wrapped up and I wanted to talk about the current state of BDSP UU post-Celebi ban along with some of the ideas I ended up trying out, encountering, and whatnot. I think the bans have opened the door for more mons to be experimented with and that the tier is in a pretty good state right now. Also, expect a VR Update soon-ish.

This is probably my favorite core to run in BDSP UU and those who watched my games noticed that I ran this trio frequently. The best thing about this core is that it is versatile enough to fit into many archetypes and structures such as volt-turn with :Flygon:

and

or

or Breaker spam with :Porygon-Z:

and

/

etc.

needs no introduction as it's always been an excellent water type since the tier was created as it's the biggest :Entei:

counter in the entire tier and a good scald absorber. Milotic blanket-checks most physical attackers nicely and Haze lets it take on bulky sweepers such as :Suicune:

and

. It's also a decent check to Shell Smash :Blastoise:

. Extremely useful to keep around if you ever find yourself in a grindy match/pp war. Also Dragon Tail on Milotic is horrible lmfao.

:Registeel:

was a mon who got better over the course of BDSP UU's history as Heracross being banned did a lot for it and it's very good at wallking special attackers and crippling them with TWave. This is relevant for special attackers such as :Porygon-Z:

and

. Registeel can also check Plot :Mismagius:

in a pinch and a good stealth rocker to have. Protect on Registeel also makes it very good for scouting choice-locked users which this tier has no shortage of.

:Crobat:

is the last of the trio and it supports RegiMilo nicely since it can punish most substitute users which can threaten milo and registeel in the tier thanks to Infiltrator barring Mew and it had some surge in usage during BDSPPL and I think it's only gotten better. It's more or less what I would define as a cheese killer to a degree alongside being a good defogger. Just lots of utility packed into one slot thanks to its absurd speed. Crobat usually wants HP and just enough speed to outpace base 110s.

Porygon-Z was always a good special breaker, that much is true. Specs with tri-attack is hella spammable not to mention the random status it could inflict. PZ is extremely good at claiming kills on a lot of mons and puts pressure on the best defensive wall in the tier in Milotic. There are other variations that could do work too such as Nasty Plot or Double Dance (Nplot + Agility) sets although I think that has its flaws and works more like a lure provided you can get rid of its checks.

Machamp is an underrated gem that really benefited from Heracross and Celebi's bans as a guts breaker. Knock access means it will always provide decent value for you in removing lefties and punishing ghosts that try to come in on the CC+Facade combo. Its bulk is passable for the tier if you invest into it. Bullet Punch is nice for finishing weakened targets too. If you can get it into the game, it will almost always claim a kill or force major progress for its teammates. A well-played Machamp is honestly one of the scariest mons in the tier given it has a stronger CC than Heracross.

PoryChamp as a core is quite strong in the tier when it comes to punishing balance/slower teams while still having some value against offensive teams.

Sun in this tier SUCKS. I am honestly amazed to think this was even considered for a ban at one point looking back on it. Sun has too many roadblocks in this tier that absolutely hold it back. Even when me and Grabby would regularly play test games with Sun as a playstyle, we came to the conclusion that it was way too unreliable and that it's nothing more than an absurd matchup fish that doesn't even fish much. :Entei:

who benefits from sun, is a nightmare to face for sun teams themselves thanks to Sacred Fire given sun teams usually can't afford to slot in a Sacred Fire switch-in and also has to fear Espeed due to the chlorophyll abuser's spotty frailty. The most reliable mon who COULD threaten Entei with sun up is physical :Venusaur:

with EQ.

just completely sits on sun teams. Scarf :Gardevoir:

being a notable presence in the tier also means if you see a Gardevoir on the other side, you nearly just lose on the spot since none of the Sun Abusers can safely come in on either of Gardevoir's stabs except for MAYBE :Shiftry:

hoping to revenge it with sucker punch if you are desperate.

The post above me was definitely wrong about Entei falling off in Post-Celebi meta lmao. It didn't really change what Entei always did which was break teams with Sacred Fire, spread burns and revenge kill with CB ESpeed. The only difference was you just had to get a bit more creative with what to pair it with to deal with bulky water-types whether that was :Machamp:

,

, or

etc. It didn't get affected that badly by the Celebi ban, if anything it gave Entei the option to run Adamant on CB sets again.

Celebi's ban meant Mew can actually have more room to try any set it wants. Sub Plot Mew was honestly a pretty nasty threat I came across when I faced SOMALIA in semi-finals that can be pretty hard to deal with that demonstrates the limitless possibilties it has. I don't think Mew has reached its full potential thanks to its immense movepool. I used this thing a ton in BDSP OU and a lot of what it did there could translate to here from an offensive standpoint.

Other Underrated Pokemon worth mentioning

This thing received some hype initially during Alpha back when the tier first came out but ever since then it kind of became a forgotten threat. The potential was always there for Exploud but Scrappy makes it really nice as another mon that can destroy substitute sets. Scarf Exploud was a set people used in RU and it translates to UU really nicely. I had the pleasure of actually building with Exploud and watching it do major work in one of my UU Open Finals match. Definitely worth a slot on some teams although it can be hard to fit it onto a team.

:Shaymin:

, this mon honestly doesn't get as much love as it should and it's a bit underrated currently. It's a really cool mon to use that can do some major work with leech seed and seed flare. The coverage is a bit underwhelming but it's still excellent as a check to :Flygon:

. Shaymin also having the potential to randomly drop your spdef with Seed Flare makes it an underrated wallbreaker too that is also a pest.

:Kingdra:

Critdra is pretty scary if you can get it set up although it can be troubling to get it in a great spot to pull it off since two turns of setup is needed. It's moreso an incredible fat killer if anything. Tried using it and it's definitely awkward to use and its much more specific. It's ok into offense but its ability to spam dracos is much more hindered against fast pace teams. Not necessarily underrated in terms of viability but I think there are definitely structures that can make it work in UU.

Other Disappointments in BDSP UU

This one may come as a surprise but Zangoose' frailty and toxic's damage that stacks up the longer it stays on the field makes it incredibly hard to get maximum mileage out of not to mention it suffers from 4MSS given it has to choose what it'll struggle against whether it's ghost types, steel types, bulkier mons or faster offensive threats. At first it felt like a good Heracross replacement but this mon really disappoints me. However with that said, a well-played Zangoose is still scary to stare down.

:Blastoise:

Blastoise went from a suspect-worthy mon to one that's merely "good". It's not bad or anything but I do think current meta trends make it really hard for Shell Smash Blastoise to actually clean out teams. :Milotic:

and even

make it difficult for it to force major progress not to mention status. BDSP UU tends to be a bulkier tier as a whole and the tier has adapted to it fairly well. It also tends to find itself weakened and in range of priority such as :Absol:

and

.I personally am voting it as an A tier threat on VR since it still has to be respected in the builder but in practice it's not as broken.

Closing Statements

Overall, I think the tier is in the best state it's ever been in and that there's a lot of exploring left to do in this tier now that most of the actual issues that plagued the tier are now gone. I hope more people get into BDSP UU as I think it's a fun tier to play and build!

Tbolt · Jul 24, 2023

With the recent UU Open, Grand Slam, and PL concluding, I figured it'd be useful to put replays and usage stats here to check out the state of the tier at the present.

BDSP UU :milotic:

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Milotic            |   25 |  46.30% |  56.00% |
| 1    | Flygon             |   25 |  46.30% |  52.00% |
| 3    | Metagross          |   24 |  44.44% |  41.67% |
| 4    | Crobat             |   20 |  37.04% |  65.00% |
| 4    | Mew                |   20 |  37.04% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Registeel          |   19 |  35.19% |  63.16% |
| 7    | Mismagius          |   18 |  33.33% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Entei              |   14 |  25.93% |  57.14% |
| 9    | Drapion            |   12 |  22.22% |  41.67% |
| 10   | Shaymin            |   11 |  20.37% |  54.55% |
| 11   | Machamp            |    9 |  16.67% |  44.44% |
| 11   | Snorlax            |    9 |  16.67% |  44.44% |
| 13   | Roserade           |    8 |  14.81% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Exploud            |    7 |  12.96% |  85.71% |
| 14   | Rotom-Heat         |    7 |  12.96% |  57.14% |
| 16   | Absol              |    6 |  11.11% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Gyarados           |    6 |  11.11% |  33.33% |
| 16   | Zapdos             |    6 |  11.11% |  33.33% |
| 19   | Blastoise          |    5 |   9.26% |  60.00% |
| 19   | Sharpedo           |    5 |   9.26% |  60.00% |
| 19   | Empoleon           |    5 |   9.26% |  60.00% |
| 19   | Porygon-Z          |    5 |   9.26% |  20.00% |
| 19   | Cloyster           |    5 |   9.26% |  20.00% |
| 24   | Espeon             |    4 |   7.41% |  75.00% |
| 24   | Hippowdon          |    4 |   7.41% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Rotom-Mow          |    4 |   7.41% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Ambipom            |    4 |   7.41% |  25.00% |
| 24   | Swampert           |    4 |   7.41% |  25.00% |
| 24   | Xatu               |    4 |   7.41% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Gardevoir          |    3 |   5.56% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Uxie               |    3 |   5.56% |  66.67% |
| 32   | Suicune            |    2 |   3.70% |  50.00% |
| 32   | Bronzong           |    2 |   3.70% |  50.00% |
| 32   | Swellow            |    2 |   3.70% |  50.00% |
| 32   | Kingdra            |    2 |   3.70% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Froslass           |    2 |   3.70% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Zangoose           |    1 |   1.85% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Tentacruel         |    1 |   1.85% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Hitmontop          |    1 |   1.85% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Primeape           |    1 |   1.85% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Houndoom           |    1 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Gallade            |    1 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Granbull           |    1 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Nidoqueen          |    1 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Sceptile           |    1 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Cresselia          |    1 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Umbreon            |    1 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Sableye            |    1 |   1.85% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Magneton           |    1 |   1.85% |   0.00% |

TyCarter · Mar 31, 2024

With our 3rd Edition of BDSP UU Open having concluded, it is time for us to announce what shifts will be coming to BDSP UU as we recently decided to unfreeze our lower tiers. Our criteria for what it takes for a Pokemon to move to OU/move down to UU will be as follows.

For a Pokemon that is currently tagged as OU in BDSP to move down to UU, it must be ranked B- or lower on the current BDSP OU VR.

For Pokemon is tagged UU or lower to move up to BDSP OU, it must be ranked A- or higher on the current BDSP OU VR.

We will re-evaluate any possible bans based on metagame adjustments that the tier will inevitably go through with these changes and work from there in the coming weeks leading up to BDSPPL III.

Under the current criteria we have in place, the following will occur:
Rises from BDSP UU to BDSP OU

:PMD/Mew:

Mew

Milotic

Roserade

Suicune

Rises from BDSP UUBL to BDSP OU

:PMD/Celebi:

Celebi

Drops from BDSP OU to BDSP UU

:PMD/Donphan:

Donphan

Jirachi

Tyranitar

Tagging dhelmise and Marty to implement when possible.

Tbolt · Mar 31, 2024

Alright, after winning UU Open in what is going to be the last tour to ever use the usage-based tiering for BDSP's lower tiers, I figured I may share the teams that I had built and subsequently used during UU Open.

:milotic:

- Thunder Registeel Balance

This was a variant of the Milotic + Registeel + Crobat balanced teams that TyCarter and I had innovated during last year's UU Open and BDSP PL. One of the major adjustments to Registeel during this time was to shift to a special attacking set that wasn't afraid of taking burn from Scald and/or Will-O-Wisp. And since Registeel's fourth move slot (traditionally Thunder Wave) was very flexible anyway, I used an Electric-type attack to wear down Milotic and Crobat to make life easier for Machamp. Either Crobat would get weakened (or even better, paralyzed), or Milotic would get worn down and be forced to Recover, letting in Machamp to do some damage. 180 Special Attack EVs allow Registeel's Flash Cannon to break max HP Mismagius's Substitutes, letting it not get set up on by Substitute + Nasty Plot variants. Of course, the drawback with special Registeel is that Shaymin can feast on it with relative ease, but Crobat can help with that immensely. I ended up going in a different direction because I felt that teams like these could fall into passivity against opposing Milotic; Machamp's low win rate in BDSP PL also was a factor in that decision. There's also a variant with Drapion and Scarf Flygon over Crobat and Machamp with a Nasty Plot Rotom-Mow; that team is probably interesting but I didn't bring that one either for... reasons.

:absol:

- Band Absol + Endeavor Swampert Offense

This team was a whole treasure trove of experimentation that was fun to play, if a bit gimmicky. The biggest glaring flaw is a lack of a single Pokemon that could really deal with Shaymin; this bit me in my semi-finals set against a fruitshop owner. However, Slowbro and Steelix's ability to collectively shut down a ton of the tier allow Band Absol to hit the field and throw out powerful Knock Offs, and Endeavor Swampert is great cleanup in the endgame, especially since this team is very safe against Crobat, one of the few Pokemon that naturally outruns Swampert and even has Infiltrator to attack Swampert through the Substitute. Scarf Rotom keeps me honest against defensive teams with Trick, and it has Thunderbolt to really hit opposing Water-types that I can struggle to deal with. Finally, Mew is free to run U-turn and Toxic to make progress since it isn't forced to be the team's Stealth Rocker. There's also a variant of this team with Earthquake to hit Steel-types, but Mew's damage on Steel-types isn't super great and it becomes more prone to Crobat.

:moltres:

- Moltres + Toxic Spikes Offense

Man does Moltres hit really hard. STAB Hurricane is really good at spreading a ton of damage to various Pokemon, and it is complemented well with Flamethrower scaring away the Steel- and Electric-types that would otherwise want to take it on. Defog is admittedly not super great, but it takes advantage of Steel-type Stealth Rock setters like Registeel and Metagross that Moltres feasts on. Fire-types also pair well with Toxic Spikes since Steel- and Poison-types don't particularly like taking Life Orb Flamethrowers from 130 Special Attack. Roserade is also a great switch to Milotic, the best Water-type in the tier, on which it can set up Toxic Spikes. After Stealth Rock Metagross (which is EV'd to outrun Adamant Machamp), I added a second Steel-type to handle dangerous special attackers, and Substitute Empoleon is a great way of taking advantage of those common MiloSteel + Crobat cores that can seemingly stop anything. You could argue giving more Speed investment gives its Substitutes more safety, but max HP lets Empoleon preserve most of its natural defensive utility. Scarf Medicham is an underrated option in UU, but with how common Protect on Registeel is, it isn't difficult to see why it is as uncommon as it is. Sharpedo, particularly the special variant, is a great Pokemon that takes advantage of Toxic Spikes, since it uses Protect to gain Speed, and that can double to give it Toxic Spikes chip. It also gives the team a nice cleaner after Moltres has roasted most of the opposing team. The last two slots can probably be adjusted to allow for a better matchup against Entei, against which Moltres can struggle to deal with; even Sacred Fire is a 3HKO so Moltres is forced to Roost against it. If you believe Pressure is better for Sacred Fire PP, I wouldn't argue against you. I also foresee this team having issues against Drapion, so your last two Pokemon would need to keep that in mind as well.

:suicune:

- Double Dog Toxic Spikes Bulky Offense

This team I'd be more comfortable giving to more players. VinCune is a fantastic abuser of Toxic Spikes, since Milotic hates getting poisoned. These Toxic Spikes also support Entei and Snorlax against Milo, and these all come together to provide a team that can be difficult to deal with once it gets going. With Forretress being the main backbone against physical attackers, and Suicune assisting against dangerous Fire-types, and Mew + Snorlax being the backbone against special attackers, the team can play the long game easily while also not being completely destroyed by opposing offensive threats. Band Entei and Scarf Rotom anchor the team against offensive threats (Adamant Entei is better for this reason). The team can struggle at times against Snorlax with Rest, but you can Trick away your Choice Scarf to keep it in check, as well as using all of the passive damage to force Snorlax to Rest, at which point your own Snorlax will have a major head start in a potential Curse war.

:suicune:

- Roar Suicune Hazard Stack Bulky Offense

OK, so this team isn't exactly new (it's currently a sample, actually), but I love this team so much that I figured that I may as well give a full writeup for it.
When I built this team, Milotic + Registeel cores were really on my mind at the time for their reliability and ability to stave off the majority of offensive threats. Of course, there was offensive counterplay (Machamp and Nasty Plot Rotom-Mow most notably), but I wanted to experiment with something I felt was underutilized at the time: Spikes. This would combine bulky Roserade's ability to completely dominate Milotic with Roar from a Pokemon that Milotic would otherwise easily check, Calm Mind Suicune, to break through these teams with Suicune's ability to just dominate entire teams. Snorlax's ability to single-handedly take on special attackers was tenuous, but it was decent check to them while also appreciating the fact that Spikes would wear down its counters. Explosion Metagross and Toxic Crobat were both techs to put even more pressure on Milotic to allow Suicune and Snorlax to dominate, and Scarf Flygon is still the best Scarfer in the tier, though I prefer +Attack natures since it really appreciates the extra power and because the team had a good enough defensive structure that it could handle other potential fast Scarfers. Simply put, though, this team's one goal is to always make progress, be it with Spikes, Roar on Suicune, Toxic on Crobat, and Explosion on Metagross.

BDSP UU was the first tier I truly got attached to, and so I have a sense of nostalgia to it (kind of like the first car you own). However, I have to move on as the tier modernizes and we close out the old metagame and bring in the new. Goodbye, Milotic, Suicune, Mew, and Roserade, and welcome to Donphan, Jirachi, and Tyranitar.

Tbolt · Saturday at 3:44 PM

Alright, now that I have time, I'll put the usage statistics for the last two rounds of the UU Open. Samples were very prevalent in the tour, so the usage stats are biased towards them. I'll also include replays so that you can peruse the teams yourself.

BSDP UU :flygon:

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flygon             |   14 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Crobat             |   13 |  46.43% |  53.85% |
| 3    | Roserade           |   10 |  35.71% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Metagross          |    7 |  25.00% |  71.43% |
| 4    | Forretress         |    7 |  25.00% |  71.43% |
| 4    | Nidoqueen          |    7 |  25.00% |  42.86% |
| 7    | Blastoise          |    6 |  21.43% |  66.67% |
| 7    | Milotic            |    6 |  21.43% |  33.33% |
| 9    | Snorlax            |    5 |  17.86% | 100.00% |
| 9    | Quagsire           |    5 |  17.86% |  60.00% |
| 9    | Mew                |    5 |  17.86% |  60.00% |
| 9    | Registeel          |    5 |  17.86% |  40.00% |
| 9    | Empoleon           |    5 |  17.86% |  20.00% |
| 14   | Entei              |    4 |  14.29% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Suicune            |    4 |  14.29% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Tauros             |    4 |  14.29% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Gardevoir          |    4 |  14.29% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Shaymin            |    4 |  14.29% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Rotom-Mow          |    4 |  14.29% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Chansey            |    4 |  14.29% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Granbull           |    4 |  14.29% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Mismagius          |    4 |  14.29% |  25.00% |
| 14   | Absol              |    4 |  14.29% |   0.00% |
| 24   | Medicham           |    3 |  10.71% |  66.67% |
| 24   | Froslass           |    3 |  10.71% |  33.33% |
| 24   | Sharpedo           |    3 |  10.71% |  33.33% |
| 24   | Swampert           |    3 |  10.71% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Uxie               |    2 |   7.14% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Machamp            |    2 |   7.14% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Jynx               |    2 |   7.14% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Moltres            |    2 |   7.14% |  50.00% |
| 32   | Exploud            |    1 |   3.57% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Cresselia          |    1 |   3.57% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Sableye            |    1 |   3.57% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Rotom-Heat         |    1 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Kingdra            |    1 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Drapion            |    1 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Zapdos             |    1 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Umbreon            |    1 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Gallade            |    1 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Swellow            |    1 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Slowbro            |    1 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Steelix            |    1 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Sceptile           |    1 |   3.57% |   0.00% |

Note: this was for the UU metagame before Milotic, Roserade, Suicune, and Mew left and Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Donphan dropped.

Metagame BDSP UU (Tier Shifts @ Post #107)

TyCarter

Tough Scene

Tbolt

Tbolt

yonitet

Banned deucer.

TyCarter

Tough Scene

Tbolt

TyCarter

Tough Scene

Tbolt

Tbolt

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