BH BH7 Suspect #5: Psychic Surge - Voter Identification & Discussion

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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

went from brawl to melee, still mediocre
is a Community Contributor
takes almost as hot as my mixtape

While Boomburst is basically unaffected by the suspect, everything neutral to -ate is never 2HKOed by fakespeed.
lo fakespeed mray is a set

252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 285-335 (68.5 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 261-308 (80.5 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados-Mega: 320-378 (81.2 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Third we have MMX. I've never seen MMX running something other than contrary. MMX isn't really viable now.
adapt is a set. geyser still accomplishes stuff. 35 ladder games isn't a good picture of the meta
Then, Prankster. Encore and Topsy Turvy are finally viable again against set up. But Haze + Destiny Bond were still sufficient.
yes i love when my best option against contrary is to let my prankster mon die
It only happened once that a Dark type (Yveltal) tried to set up on me (and I had Prankster Giratina with Encore as a blanket check to set up). But it ended up being fakespeeded by a Diancie, and the terrain wouldn't have helped. Checking setup isn't hindered by psychic surge. To be more accurate, being prepared to check set up hoping that anti priority isn't in play is a bad idea, even without psychic surge, because what if the opponent it's a dark type or running Dazzling?
what about aps mmy? btw yveltal is bad with shell smash because of its low attack so something like gyara or ttar would be able to set up in terrain
Dazzling and Queenly Majesty. To be honest I only saw that once. It doesn't support the team. It isn't undetectable like it was in the past; Imposter can scout it without wasting moves.
pretty much everything with dazzling runs some kind of offensive setup (usually shell smash). imposter can't scout without taking 50 from power trip or something, even without specific countermeasures for it
I'd also like to remember that psychic terrain works both ways. No one can use priority. Even if you are playing stall, you'll appreciate that time when Diancie couldn't sweep through your team because your almost dead Prankster Registeel was safe from Diancie's fakespeed acting before priority recovery.
no good stall team loses to priority. also what kind of psychic terrain team actually uses fakespeed? before this suspect people didn't use mmy+diancie, they used mmy+mmx.
Banning Psychic Surge is a bad idea. It's a returning to gen 6.
what

i know "the meta will be better/worse without x" is a bad argument but i'm kinda tempted to vote ban based on it.

even if we ban this+dqm, offense won't even be close to dead. manual psychic terrain is a completely legit option to negate opposing priority, tons of offensive juggernauts like kartana are good, and mmy isn't forced to run king's shield even though it's a viable option.

the difference is that in no psychic surge/dqm meta, the counterplay to offense is a lot less matchup based. you can bring fakespeed ray and play it badly and still lose, but because you played badly and not because you brought fakespeed ray and random dazzling or surge prevented it from reliably doing anything.

contrary finally gains a semi reliable stop in prankster topsy/encore, while dark types can avoid these issues but at the cost of losing to haze/fakespeed. you can't just say "it's matchup based because you win if you brought fakespeed or haze but you lose otherwise" because dark types are so much easier to check than literally any mon under surge/dqm. guys like zyg, yveltal, and gyara can handle them well enough

let's make this meta less about what you use and more about how you use them. ban psychic surge.

edit @ below: i meant that contrary could get through haze/destiny bond prankster users (the best outcome being a trade, which sucks if the prankster user is facing offense) so it's definitely not "sufficient". also moro was joking lol
 
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yes i love when my best option against contrary is to let my prankster mon die
contrary finally gains a semi reliable stop in prankster topsy/encore,





If you guys thought my sm stall was bullshit, wait till surge gets banned. 2.2k elo RMT coming up!
I don't want to have animosity towards anyone in general, but this is a bad sentiment and makes me feel morally obligated to vote no ban.

I still do have an allegiance to -Ate, though...
 
takes almost as hot as my mixtape


lo fakespeed mray is a set

252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 285-335 (68.5 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 261-308 (80.5 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados-Mega: 320-378 (81.2 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's a positive natured atk on life orb and not every -ate is like that. It can be argued that +SpA is generally better because Boomburst. Also the first two calcs also says that the other mon can retaliate and dispose of Ray if they only have to take espeed (MMY ohkoes and Gengar normalizes, usually).
adapt is a set. geyser still accomplishes stuff. 35 ladder games isn't a good picture of the meta
356 is a little amount of battles but that just is the number of battles played needed to get reqs on that account. It isn't the amount of battle I did in this "psysurge-less" meta. Yes Adapt MMX is a set but lacking 50% extra power on a move that gets past its best check hurts its viability.
yes i love when my best option against contrary is to let my prankster mon die
Getting reliable Topsy Turvy and Encore won't help that much in prankster vs contrary. Encoring into an uneffective move is okay but you are not guaranteed to encore the move you want (I mean the opponent won't mindlessly click Draco Meteor on Contrary Ray-Mega if there's Prankster Audino on the other side of the field). Topsy Turvy works once (yet it doesn't decrease the power of an incoming V-create to make an example), then if the opponent sees prankster again it becomes mind games between switching out/keep attacking and Topsy-Turvy/Recover as they switch/Pivot out as they switch. Destiny bond is desperate and haze is just a refresh of stats, but if someone relies on prankster alone to check contrary then contrary isn't 100% checked.
what about aps mmy? btw yveltal is bad with shell smash because of its low attack so something like gyara or ttar would be able to set up in terrain
Yveltal was just an example about dealing with something. But aps still has to deal with Spectral Thief, Unaware, Status like para or burn, (scarfed) Imposter unless it's imposterproof and Prankster Haze.
pretty much everything with dazzling runs some kind of offensive setup (usually shell smash). imposter can't scout without taking 50 from power trip or something, even without specific countermeasures for it
I meant that now imposter reads the ability of the opponent. Of course it takes damage (possibly a lot) if it switches in before the opponent sets up. But again, if you don't rely on targeted priority to deal with anti-priority then Dazzling is a wasted ability.
no good stall team loses to priority. also what kind of psychic terrain team actually uses fakespeed? before this suspect people didn't use mmy+diancie, they used mmy+mmx.
What does "no good stall team loses to priority" is even supposed to mean? If for some reasons a Registeel switches on Blue Flare coverage from -ate Diancie and it crits (or it has some chip damage), you need antipriority to save Registeel. Now it's dumb to bring psychic surge on stall but it's not like it wouldn't benefit.

even if we ban this+dqm, offense won't even be close to dead. manual psychic terrain is a completely legit option to negate opposing priority, tons of offensive juggernauts like kartana are good, and mmy isn't forced to run king's shield even though it's a viable option.
Now I know I also brought up manual psy terrain (just to show that the infamous MMX set isn't really dead) but seriously how many people wanted SO BAD psychic terrain up they actually resorted to manually setting that up? I've seen no one doing such a thing and the reason of this being "psychic surge not worth to ban" isn't to be excluded.
the difference is that in no psychic surge/dqm meta, the counterplay to offense is a lot less matchup based. you can bring fakespeed ray and play it badly and still lose, but because you played badly and not because you brought fakespeed ray and random dazzling or surge prevented it from reliably doing anything.
Fakespeed is 2 moveslots and if against anti-priority it isn't doing anything the pokemon running fakespeed is flawed.
contrary finally gains a semi reliable stop in prankster topsy/encore, while dark types can avoid these issues but at the cost of losing to haze/fakespeed. you can't just say "it's matchup based because you win if you brought fakespeed or haze but you lose otherwise" because dark types are so much easier to check than literally any mon under surge/dqm. guys like zyg, yveltal, and gyara can handle them well enough
"Contrary finally gaining a semi reliable stop" isn't much of an accomplishment. It's not even like BH lacks options to deal with it.
let's make this meta less about what you use and more about how you use them. ban psychic surge.
Use them what?

he went 35-2
ElMustacho still has the best record 35-1 lol
he took 2 alts to do it tho, Psystachio was his old one
I changed alt because I didn't prepare a team and the teambuilder wasn't working when I was getting reqs so I was stuck with some beta test teams or teams so old they were not viable. When the teambuilder was back I had a crappy W/L ratio (yet I was like second on ladder at 1400 something but no reqs met at some point) and realized that getting reqs from scratch was faster. Then I realized that it is possible to just refresh your score so I could have kept Psystacho as an alt. Also I was at 34-0 with 2 battles and they ended almost at the same moment so it was 34-1 then 35-1.
 
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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

went from brawl to melee, still mediocre
is a Community Contributor
That's a positive natured atk on life orb and not every -ate is like that. It can be argued that +SpA is generally better because Boomburst. Also the first two calcs also says that the other mon can retaliate and dispose of Ray if they only have to take espeed (MMY ohkoes and Gengar normalizes, usually).
this example was just showing that with the proper mon/item/nature, offensive guys like mmy can be reliably revenge killed. of course other options are viable; a team with reliable stealth rocks, for example, could use rash or sharp beak variants. and mmy has always been able to revenge kill atespeed
Getting reliable Topsy Turvy and Encore won't help that much in prankster vs contrary. Encoring into an uneffective move is okay but you are not guaranteed to encore the move you want (I mean the opponent won't mindlessly click Draco Meteor on Contrary Ray-Mega if there's Prankster Audino on the other side of the field). Topsy Turvy works once (yet it doesn't decrease the power of an incoming V-create to make an example), then if the opponent sees prankster again it becomes mind games between switching out/keep attacking and Topsy-Turvy/Recover as they switch/Pivot out as they switch. Destiny bond is desperate and haze is just a refresh of stats, but if someone relies on prankster alone to check contrary then contrary isn't 100% checked.
yeah it isn't 100% checked, but it's a whole lot better than what we've already got right now. topsy turvy is such a good asset to have simply because contrary's most threatening aspect, the constant boosts to attack it gives (let's be real, those v create/ice hammer guys never put in much work), can be negated.
Yveltal was just an example about dealing with something. But aps still has to deal with Spectral Thief, Unaware, Status like para or burn, (scarfed) Imposter unless it's imposterproof and Prankster Haze.
the problem i have with this argument is that it makes aps out to be really bad, without really stating how hard it is to revenge kill or defensively handle if you're not lucky enough to have that one kryptonite mon for it. you can't always prevent shell smash users from setting up, and mons like fakespeed aerilate ray are pretty bad in the meta (not to mention unreliable revenge killers in themselves).
What does "no good stall team loses to priority" is even supposed to mean? If for some reasons a Registeel switches on Blue Flare coverage from -ate Diancie and it crits (or it has some chip damage), you need antipriority to save Registeel. Now it's dumb to bring psychic surge on stall but it's not like it wouldn't benefit.
have you seen actual stall? i'd hope it would have better answers to pixilate diancie than prankster registeel of all things. psychic surge is a negative thing for stall because it negates prankster moves like wisp, topsy and encore. but either way it's a pretty irrelevant point
Fakespeed is 2 moveslots and if against anti-priority it isn't doing anything the pokemon running fakespeed is flawed.
fakespeed being good is healthy for the metagame. it requires you to use a team slot and 2 moves, and in exchange the fakespeed mon can revenge kill most offensive mons. it's a tradeoff that teambuilders can use instead of running like unaware zyg and hoping they don't run into simple smash mmy
"Contrary finally gaining a semi reliable stop" isn't much of an accomplishment.
what kinda semi reliable stops are there rn? unaware chansey, muk-a, and ho-oh are the only real sets to my knowledge that can take on contrary mmy and mega sceptile, and muk is pretty bad while the others lose to physical photon geyser and physical contrary in general
Use them what?
i'm saying that if psychic surge and aps are banned, offense vs balance will become a much more skill based matchup. before all you could really do was click spectral thief and cross your fingers, but with the introduction of actual revenge killers besides the unreliable imposter, the match is no longer over after a simple mistake from the balance player (although choosing to use a revenge killer puts their defensive core at a disadvantage so they don't just win the matchup).
 
what kinda semi reliable stops are there rn? unaware chansey, muk-a, and ho-oh are the only real sets to my knowledge that can take on contrary mmy and mega sceptile, and muk is pretty bad while the others lose to physical photon geyser and physical contrary in general
yeah it isn't 100% checked, but it's a whole lot better than what we've already got right now. topsy turvy is such a good asset to have simply because contrary's most threatening aspect, the constant boosts to attack it gives (let's be real, those v create/ice hammer guys never put in much work), can be negated.
The special side has FF Registeel that switches on +0 anything, lives +2 anything and can tospy turvy them to -4 (assuming that they use +2 spa moves). If also checking physical stuff is a priority Aegislash provides similar accomplishments but it is afraid of contrary Hoopa-U (very uncommon but has this niche) and Moongeist Beam users. Unaware chansey dies to MMY if it brings Superpower/Close Combat (shutouts to superpower that can make contrary mmy a physical attacker with photon geyser) as coverage.
252- Atk Mewtwo-Mega-Y Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-410 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
Okay if you are not a zygarde ice-hammer is terrible but again neither topsy turvy or encore soften up an unboosted V-create.
fakespeed being good is healthy for the metagame. it requires you to use a team slot and 2 moves, and in exchange the fakespeed mon can revenge kill most offensive mons. it's a tradeoff that teambuilders can use instead of running like unaware zyg and hoping they don't run into simple smash mmy
Even if mmy (or generally stuff that wants to avoid being revenge killed) had to run KS it still doesn't sacrifice important coverage since with photon geyser it can compress its moveslots.

Sorry for not answering at everything, gonna continue later with EDITS, gotta go. Also I realized that without potential psychic surge everywhere triage can return. Ray revenge kills mmy with leech life (especially if it shell smashed) and if it knows that it lives an hit it can instead set up a tail glow and break mmy with life orb oblivion wing. More later.
+3 252+ SpA Life Orb Triage Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 415-489 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO.
 
Just came back again to vote x.x

someone dced and came back to claimed my points smh
tbh i don't even know hot to play anymore

Leaning towards ban after reading this, and this.

There seem to be some arguments against the ban and those boil down to speculations like "stall would be too strong", and "triage would be mad." These obviously won't work as an argument.

Although there seems to be still doubts on whether psysurge is the root of the problem. Think about all kinds of threats extremely hard to deal with brought up so far: be it contrary MMY supported by Psy Terrain, Adapt MMX supported by Psy Terrain, Tinted MMY supported by Psy Terrain etc etc. Revenge killing / Prankster Encore or Topsy is surely some healthy elements to bring back. (Again, speculation is that they won't be broken, but that is not a decisive factor in determining whether psy-surge should be banned anyway.)

Almost forgot, alt dedicated to my friend psychicmewtwo lol
 
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I am in. I vote to keep Psychic Surge.

Many of us are good players, and can circumvent these strategies, whether it is using a separate terrain to override Psychic Surge, or via other means like using a faster Mon (like Pheromosa for checking MMY), or various counters to MMX like Fur Coat Yveltal, Sableye-Mega, etc.

Imposter can also manage an opponent's Psychic Surger.

Psychic Surge isn't domineering on its own, and thus unlike Primal Groudon, isn't a locked in advantage, afterall, many teams that are fighting other teams have Psychic Surge of their own, and thus can take advantage of it themselves.
 
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