pazza
Banned deucer.
Why would you want to dnb something because something was more overpowered. Yes this ability is not broken but it is very uncompetitive
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BH BH7 Suspect #6: Illusion - Voter ID & Information
- Thread starter E4 Flint
- Start date
- Status
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
Because I have won games solely because of it and I felt like I somehow inadvertently cheated. And I know it impacts Imposter as well, but quite frankly I am sure they would have fixed it by now if it was simple to correct. I can still reach out to them, but if the ban takes place before they react then it would be moot.
P.S. I am not alone in this.
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pazza
Banned deucer.
you legit said "why suspect illusion when there are other broken stuff like qm/dazzling/contray"
also if you want me to give u reasons ill tell you on discord if u get on
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
One possible consideration for scouting, is the time it takes someone to pick their team during Team Preview. If I am waiting on the opponent to pick their team longer than 10-15 seconds, I pretty much know they have Illusion (without Illusion you only care about what goes out first, rather than what needs to be sorted last).
In response to my own thought process, I specifically try and take as little time as possible when picking my lead and last Pokémon (I set the Target of my Illusion as then 2nd to last Pokémon in the team builder so I can click the lead, and then quickly click the last Pokémon repeatedly until the 2nd to last Pokémon is the final one to click and start the match).
This prevents someone from saying “He took a while to pick just the lead, he must be using Illusion.”
Let's not use this thread for oneliners posts. This is BH7 Suspect #6: Illusion - Voter ID & Information.
Either show your reqs, post something significant about the suspect, or don't post anything at all.
Either show your reqs, post something significant about the suspect, or don't post anything at all.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ozzauil6ko0pitn/ilusionreqs.PNG?dl=1
Do not ban
Seriously guys, it's very high risk/high reward to use illusion (we won't count illusion to change form like Groudon and kang).Not to mention that by giving up a boosting ability illusion mons often miss out on actually KOing the threat they're trying to lure since they are best used early game when most of the teams are at 100% health. They are almost always forced into running a choice item, since otherwise their damage is simply bad without it (even Life Orb is bad, and instantly changes the hp number of the illusioned mon making the illusion easy to see through next time).
A good player will usually be able to get his wall back in, and recover off the damage that the illusion user did to it, and if he isn't able to, that just shows that the illusion user was smart enough to not let him ever have the opportunity.
But you're complaining, hey but what if Mewtwo-Mega-X disguises itself as Registeel and kills me with banded Close Combat? Then i have no mega Diancie counter. That's just not good teambuilding. Hopefully you weren't relying on Registeel as your only Anti mega Diancie measure because most of them have a way to get past Registeel. Illusion mons are S-rank threats, and usually disguise themselves as other S-rank threats because they know that the danger level of those threats is so high that the opponent has to do something about them immediately. A good team has multiple checks to the big threats so that in case something gets lured they still have some hope left.
About team preview: it's not necessary that you be able to judge Illusion from team preview.
About people complaining that it's uncompetitive because the simulator gets confused about what moves are on what mons: SERIOUSLY COME ON. If you are smart enough to get reqs you are smart enough to remember what moves a Pokemon has without having to hover. I understand it's a nice quality of life feature, but it not working is not uncompetitive at all. We have memory that can help us know what moves we saw before. I never hover, mostly because I'm blind and can't, and I play just fine
Tldr: Build smarter, play smarter, and you'll see that Illusion isn't broken.
Do not ban
Seriously guys, it's very high risk/high reward to use illusion (we won't count illusion to change form like Groudon and kang).Not to mention that by giving up a boosting ability illusion mons often miss out on actually KOing the threat they're trying to lure since they are best used early game when most of the teams are at 100% health. They are almost always forced into running a choice item, since otherwise their damage is simply bad without it (even Life Orb is bad, and instantly changes the hp number of the illusioned mon making the illusion easy to see through next time).
A good player will usually be able to get his wall back in, and recover off the damage that the illusion user did to it, and if he isn't able to, that just shows that the illusion user was smart enough to not let him ever have the opportunity.
But you're complaining, hey but what if Mewtwo-Mega-X disguises itself as Registeel and kills me with banded Close Combat? Then i have no mega Diancie counter. That's just not good teambuilding. Hopefully you weren't relying on Registeel as your only Anti mega Diancie measure because most of them have a way to get past Registeel. Illusion mons are S-rank threats, and usually disguise themselves as other S-rank threats because they know that the danger level of those threats is so high that the opponent has to do something about them immediately. A good team has multiple checks to the big threats so that in case something gets lured they still have some hope left.
About team preview: it's not necessary that you be able to judge Illusion from team preview.
About people complaining that it's uncompetitive because the simulator gets confused about what moves are on what mons: SERIOUSLY COME ON. If you are smart enough to get reqs you are smart enough to remember what moves a Pokemon has without having to hover. I understand it's a nice quality of life feature, but it not working is not uncompetitive at all. We have memory that can help us know what moves we saw before. I never hover, mostly because I'm blind and can't, and I play just fine
Tldr: Build smarter, play smarter, and you'll see that Illusion isn't broken.
not to nitpick but did you really have people download your reqs lol
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 422-500 (115.9 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 390-458 (107.1 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 546-644 (135.1 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 500-590 (123.7 - 146%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 928-1096 (229.7 - 271.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 426-504 (105.4 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 688-812 (166.1 - 196.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Magearna: 516-608 (142.1 - 167.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 426-504 (131.4 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
got plenty more where that came from
and even if they don't OHKO, they severely damage the user to the point where they can't find a switchin, making them essentially fainted already, not to mention the problem of hazards.
i dont see the problem with being forced into running a choice item, for example mewtwo y had no problem running choice specs during psychic surge era, also life orb is bad never use illusion life orb
yeah, ideally good teams or good users, let alone illusion teams, are smart enough to not let low hp mons get the opportunity to do something about their low hp if they are able to.
let me just remind you that you only have 6 mons. most people have one to three attackers, followed by three to five walls. ideally you'd want to have a core that handles all of the meta (not just m-diancie). so if you wanna run 2 flash fire steels (the most reliable m-diancie check) or something weird like fur coat pogre then be my guest.
I think it's pretty essential to know whether you're about to get lured or not.
i dont believe that anyone complained about that, it's a dumb argument but you seem to act like every anti-illusion uses that as their argument which is not true.
tl;dr run 5 m-diancie, m-rayquaza, mmx, mmy, shed, m-gengar, and pdon checks and your gucci gang
im not leader of the shitposting shuckles for no reason
if you knew whether you were about to get lured, it wouldn't be a lure, Would it?
On another note, all the calcs you posted showed that Illusion Mega Garchomp and mMX can lure and OKO steels. Which is definitely a very powerful boon for them. If you think about it, most of the meta is trying to OHKO steels in some way or another, because Steels wall a lot of the most powerful strategies so well. Maybe it's better to stop relying so heavily onSteel-types to check so many things, if this is the direction the meta is moving. Metagames aren't static, and if they are there's something wrong with it. Illusion is getting good, so people find checks to standard Illusion cores. That's how it works in every other metagame. There is still plenty of choice left. Why not use Soundproof Mega Slowbro to check -ate, or Sash Magic Guard Diancie-Mega to check non-normal Shell Smash sweepers? What about Prankster Destiny Bond Giratina or Creselia instead of Registeel so that they aren't lured by Close Combat? Perhaps a Mold Breaker Stealth Rocker might fit your team so that you can notice abnormal amounts of Stealth Rock damage being taken. Will-o--Wisp, or for more offensive teams, No Guard Inferno, can help spread burns which will also chip at their HP, and cripple physical attacking Illusion users.
These aren't even gimmicks. They're just underrated options these days And yes I know we only have 24 moveslots, but we have always had 24 moveslots.
On another note, all the calcs you posted showed that Illusion Mega Garchomp and mMX can lure and OKO steels. Which is definitely a very powerful boon for them. If you think about it, most of the meta is trying to OHKO steels in some way or another, because Steels wall a lot of the most powerful strategies so well. Maybe it's better to stop relying so heavily onSteel-types to check so many things, if this is the direction the meta is moving. Metagames aren't static, and if they are there's something wrong with it. Illusion is getting good, so people find checks to standard Illusion cores. That's how it works in every other metagame. There is still plenty of choice left. Why not use Soundproof Mega Slowbro to check -ate, or Sash Magic Guard Diancie-Mega to check non-normal Shell Smash sweepers? What about Prankster Destiny Bond Giratina or Creselia instead of Registeel so that they aren't lured by Close Combat? Perhaps a Mold Breaker Stealth Rocker might fit your team so that you can notice abnormal amounts of Stealth Rock damage being taken. Will-o--Wisp, or for more offensive teams, No Guard Inferno, can help spread burns which will also chip at their HP, and cripple physical attacking Illusion users.
These aren't even gimmicks. They're just underrated options these days And yes I know we only have 24 moveslots, but we have always had 24 moveslots.
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There's a huge difference between luring by using a specific move on the mon that wants to lure its counters/checks - prime example is v-create on -ate Diancie or Rayquaza, and luring by using illusion.
In the first case you know what the pokemon in front of you is, which movesets it likes to run and which mons are the best checks. Also you might be able to guess a lure/coverage move from looking at the opponent's team and possible improof. If he uses Celesteela, his Diancie/Rayquaza might probably run precipice blades over v-create, and/or his MMY might be a sheer force variant with earth powder to defeat other steels.
In the second case you don't know what the mon in front of you actually is, unless you could "mark" the illusion mon or the mon it is disguised as by chipping it, by statusing it or you were able to set hazards. You have to guess what the right action is, usually without any clue, and either you guessed right and blocked the hit, or your opponent will get another chance.
In the first case you know what the pokemon in front of you is, which movesets it likes to run and which mons are the best checks. Also you might be able to guess a lure/coverage move from looking at the opponent's team and possible improof. If he uses Celesteela, his Diancie/Rayquaza might probably run precipice blades over v-create, and/or his MMY might be a sheer force variant with earth powder to defeat other steels.
In the second case you don't know what the mon in front of you actually is, unless you could "mark" the illusion mon or the mon it is disguised as by chipping it, by statusing it or you were able to set hazards. You have to guess what the right action is, usually without any clue, and either you guessed right and blocked the hit, or your opponent will get another chance.
Storm Eagle
Banned deucer.
Even if it may not be a valid reason towards voting Ban, it's still a valid concern as Illusion has had these bugs probably since it's inception some point around 2011-2012. It's not the main reason to vote Ban, but I believe it adds towards the more valid reasons to vote Ban, such as eliminating checks for a Pokemon you're disguising as to lean the game in your favor without counterplay.
Illusion is not like any other lure. You can have a good expectation on what moves Mega Gengar will have, for example (one of the main mons used as lures afaik). Illusion? Anything and everything can be an effective lure and there's no drawback to it. Normal lures don't force your opponent to make bad plays and a lot of the time if you see your opponent switching in a Steel-type on a Fire-type, it's pretty predictable that they are Flash Fire. Illusion is never predictable because you can disguise as Mega Diancie one point in the match, then Registeel later in the match. Illusion is broken competitively and bug-wise.
There's also the issue of your opponent playing mindgames. If your Illusion Pokemon is disguised as Mega Diancie, what's to say they won't switch in the actual Mega Diancie later in the match? Will it be the Illusion mon or the real Mega Diancie? You could predict the Illusion but take a Boomburst or you could predict Mega Diancie and take a nuke from the Illusion mon.
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Now I also got reqs with a conforming alt, so noone can stop me from voting for a BAN :D
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reqs
I'm gonna say NO BAN solely because it's usually only good for one KO, if that. Illusion is one of those things where, once you find it, you usually know how to play around it. In the higher portion of the ladder where most all team archetypes are balanced or stall, an unpredicted Illusion could definitely destroy the walls of a team. But that's what scouting is for. I like to put safety first in my team, which is why my lead is a SubPass Prankster. With Subs and plenty of U-turns, plus the occasional Anchor, Knock Off, or Spectral Thief, I have typically not had all that terrible of a time with Illusion. I certainly don't think it's banworthy.
Don't ban. Illusion is one of the few abilities left that allows for the meta to keep its unique unpredictability. Using hazards is a simple and common way to discern mons running illusion. I also suggest to somehow fix primal reversion displays.
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I feel like I should give my two cents after seeing most of the community's reaction to this suspect.
As a BH player, I have used and faced my fair share of illusion mons most notably Mega Kanga and Mega Garchomp. Losing walls to this set up indeed is irksome and frustrating and there is no way to predict which mon will be used as an illusion screen. Above all this, Illusion allows mons to escape imposter and also saves them from ability changing moves like entrainment. This comes as both a boon and a curse to most players since it stops Chansey and normalize Gengar which quite a few players rely on.
Honestly, I have always frowned upon the use of imposter Chansey as more often than not it forces speed ties and takes absolutely 0 skill to use. Illusion plaguing the blob, in my opinion, is the best thing it does. Also, as the players above have already said, scouting and decent teambuilding will go a long way in mitigating the threat that illusion poses.
Also fake speed -ates are every illusion mon's worst nightmare since it breaks illusion and allows the player to recognise the illusion mon based on damage taken.
While illusion does serve as an effective lure there are only a few mons that actually benefit from it. The logic that any mon can potentially run illusion and be viable is a laughable notion. MMX and Mega Gengar especially have much better abilities that can be used over illusion. While they do enjoy a one time advantage, once that is lost they become easy to revenge kill.
TL;DR
People say illusion is uncompetitive but it's merely a gimmick in my opinion. The unpredictability it provides is what keeps this meta from growing stale.
Do Not Ban
As a BH player, I have used and faced my fair share of illusion mons most notably Mega Kanga and Mega Garchomp. Losing walls to this set up indeed is irksome and frustrating and there is no way to predict which mon will be used as an illusion screen. Above all this, Illusion allows mons to escape imposter and also saves them from ability changing moves like entrainment. This comes as both a boon and a curse to most players since it stops Chansey and normalize Gengar which quite a few players rely on.
Honestly, I have always frowned upon the use of imposter Chansey as more often than not it forces speed ties and takes absolutely 0 skill to use. Illusion plaguing the blob, in my opinion, is the best thing it does. Also, as the players above have already said, scouting and decent teambuilding will go a long way in mitigating the threat that illusion poses.
Also fake speed -ates are every illusion mon's worst nightmare since it breaks illusion and allows the player to recognise the illusion mon based on damage taken.
While illusion does serve as an effective lure there are only a few mons that actually benefit from it. The logic that any mon can potentially run illusion and be viable is a laughable notion. MMX and Mega Gengar especially have much better abilities that can be used over illusion. While they do enjoy a one time advantage, once that is lost they become easy to revenge kill.
TL;DR
People say illusion is uncompetitive but it's merely a gimmick in my opinion. The unpredictability it provides is what keeps this meta from growing stale.
Do Not Ban
Quick post because I can't believe people still think imposter Chansey takes no skill to use.
I'll admit Illusion is much harder to use on ladder. You don't know the player or how they play so you actually need to scout their skill level and you don't know their way of building. And really you play differently on ladder, your goal is different. So it's understandable that high risk situations like Illusion are often not worth it.
But as this OMPL showcased, illusion in a tournament setting is uncompetitive AND overpowered. When only one game matters, drastically turning the tides with often no way for your opponent to know what was going to happen, is ridiculous.
Shit, the threat of illusion even causes one sided mind games in a setting where no player is running illusion. And too often understated is that illusion can do this shit multiple times a game if played right.
I also want to quickly highlight something Semako said.
"You have to guess what the right action is, usually without any clue, and either you guessed right and blocked the hit, or your opponent will get another chance. "
I'll admit Illusion is much harder to use on ladder. You don't know the player or how they play so you actually need to scout their skill level and you don't know their way of building. And really you play differently on ladder, your goal is different. So it's understandable that high risk situations like Illusion are often not worth it.
But as this OMPL showcased, illusion in a tournament setting is uncompetitive AND overpowered. When only one game matters, drastically turning the tides with often no way for your opponent to know what was going to happen, is ridiculous.
Shit, the threat of illusion even causes one sided mind games in a setting where no player is running illusion. And too often understated is that illusion can do this shit multiple times a game if played right.
I also want to quickly highlight something Semako said.
"You have to guess what the right action is, usually without any clue, and either you guessed right and blocked the hit, or your opponent will get another chance. "
I also want to draw attention to this replay that Will very kindly shared: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-688449709
I'm not much interested in the first illusion KO at turn 33. There are just two things to mention. The first one is that Solgaleo was in dire need of a roost, because it's in 2HKO range from boomburst. The second is that if the prediction went wrong for Irish, that means Will switched out. Which means MMX took no damage, Solgaleo still didn't roost, and Irish didn't really lose anything. So he can absolutely just try again next time.
I'm more interested by the second illusion KO at turn 92. What annoys me with that is the fact that Boomburst is completely risk free for Irish. Will loses a mon if he "predicts" wrong because everything dies from either mmx or kyuW. If Irish predicts wrong once again it means Will switched out, and has to recover. In either case Irish takes no damage and in the worst case he just has to try again in a few turns. It is completely risk free. While Will on the other hand has to repeatedly win 50/50s where the risk for him is losing a mon and the risk for Irish is nothing at all.
I'm not much interested in the first illusion KO at turn 33. There are just two things to mention. The first one is that Solgaleo was in dire need of a roost, because it's in 2HKO range from boomburst. The second is that if the prediction went wrong for Irish, that means Will switched out. Which means MMX took no damage, Solgaleo still didn't roost, and Irish didn't really lose anything. So he can absolutely just try again next time.
I'm more interested by the second illusion KO at turn 92. What annoys me with that is the fact that Boomburst is completely risk free for Irish. Will loses a mon if he "predicts" wrong because everything dies from either mmx or kyuW. If Irish predicts wrong once again it means Will switched out, and has to recover. In either case Irish takes no damage and in the worst case he just has to try again in a few turns. It is completely risk free. While Will on the other hand has to repeatedly win 50/50s where the risk for him is losing a mon and the risk for Irish is nothing at all.
Yes. I honestly belive it doesn't take much skill to abuse imposter chansey. But that is besides the point which I was making. The logic that "Guessing the right action or else your opponent gets another chance" is applicable for every wallbreaking nuke used in the meta. Any mon that has multiple viable sets that are capable of removing some wall falls under the same bracket. You have to guess what the mon is going to do or suffer the loss of a mon at best.
Then by this logic Illusion becomes a wallbreaker like any mon, no more, no less.
No, because in case of the wallbreaker you know which mon is in front of you and you know which sets it likes to run.
Example: If there's a MMY in front of you, you know that it will hit you hard on the special side or use Psystrike to hit you on the physical side. This means, switching in a RegenVest steel type will allow you to easily scout its set, and , depending on MMY's set, might also be able to check it for the rest of the game. Even if it runs V-reate or Close Combat, it won't kill a RegenVest steel type, because it neither has STAB on those moves nor is its attack stat high enough. However, if that MMY was a disguised MMX, it has an easy time killing your RegenVest steel type with a STAB Close Combat, and you had no chance of knowing that this MMY was in fact an MMX and that a Close Combat coming from it might be so dangerous.
Example: If there's a MMY in front of you, you know that it will hit you hard on the special side or use Psystrike to hit you on the physical side. This means, switching in a RegenVest steel type will allow you to easily scout its set, and , depending on MMY's set, might also be able to check it for the rest of the game. Even if it runs V-reate or Close Combat, it won't kill a RegenVest steel type, because it neither has STAB on those moves nor is its attack stat high enough. However, if that MMY was a disguised MMX, it has an easy time killing your RegenVest steel type with a STAB Close Combat, and you had no chance of knowing that this MMY was in fact an MMX and that a Close Combat coming from it might be so dangerous.
Also, you can base yourself on the opponent's team to know what the pokemon might run. The support for a triage ray is often different than the support for a specs aerilate ray. You can base yourself on, for example, what his team struggles with, what he wants to be removed for another wincon, but also in a lot of cases what his improofing is and how he goes around that improofing with this mon or another.
People don't run random coverage moves on mons, they pick moves for a reason.
People don't run random coverage moves on mons, they pick moves for a reason.
Storm Eagle
Banned deucer.
Time to refute some more DNB arguments.
Also, scouting for Illusion isn't really possible unless you see the opponent has a normal Kangaskhan, and next to no one at high ladder leads with an Illusion Pokemon because of Imposter Chansey with Fake Out. Using Prankster Sub does not count as scouting for Illusion because some times it may not be terribly obvious that the opposing Pokemon is Illusion (e.g. when Mega Rayquaza uses Moongeist Beam, is it Mega Rayquaza or an Illusion Mega Gengar?).
Also, in my honest opinion, decent teambuilding will let you beat Imposter, but I completely disagree that decent teambuilding allows you to beat Illusion. There are OMPL games where Illusion has worked out well. GL Volkner won an OMPL game using it. Motherlove and Willdbeast have lots of games using it in OMPL.
Want the replays? Have them.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-773107894
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-779377481
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-766680809
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-766658509
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-688449709
Also, as Illusion re-activates later in battle after you switch in again and the Illusion can be disguised as a different Pokemon (first time can be Mega Diancie, the next can be Giratina), I'd argue it is not a one time advantage. It can definitely be abused multiple times during the midst of a game.
I genuinely ask that some of you reconsider your Do Not Ban stance here. Illusion may be harder to use on ladder than many might think, but when you find the right times to send out Illusion and the best Pokemon to disguise as, it can be deadly in OMPL matches. This isn't to say that ladder doesn't have trouble with it either. I have used it many times and so many times I have seen the opponent make a bad move and end up giving me one or more free turns because of Illusion, like Volt Switch on an Illusion Mega Garchomp. It is completely unfair and uncompetitive at the basic level. It may not be overpowered to many people, but if you find out how to use it correctly and efficiently, it ends up giving you more of an advantage than any other ability could due to it giving you free turns to attack or set up without the threat of Imposter Chansey.
All you need is one KO to already have the advantage. If you can eliminate the check to a specific Pokemon, the opposing team will have a much more difficult time trying to take it out, and a lot of times the team will start to hemorrhage under the pressure due to lacking a check of the Pokemon you're disguising as.
Illusion can re-activate later in battle and due to bugs Illusion can make you appear as different Pokemon mid-match. The only way to beat Illusion is to make the Illusion Pokemon faint. Prankster SubPass is definitely niche, and while it works well, you can only get so many uses out of it. Of course, the opponent is simply going to stop switching in their Illusion Pokemon into your Prankster mon once he learns about it. Why switch in Illusion when Illusion can't beat that Pokemon?
Also, scouting for Illusion isn't really possible unless you see the opponent has a normal Kangaskhan, and next to no one at high ladder leads with an Illusion Pokemon because of Imposter Chansey with Fake Out. Using Prankster Sub does not count as scouting for Illusion because some times it may not be terribly obvious that the opposing Pokemon is Illusion (e.g. when Mega Rayquaza uses Moongeist Beam, is it Mega Rayquaza or an Illusion Mega Gengar?).
Again, we're pointing fingers at a different issue to try and justify Illusion's place in the meta. Other things being an issue should not have an effect on this Suspect Test. Imposter Chansey is not broken either in my opinion. The sole reason is because it is entirely one-dimensional and if you take the time to improof your team, Imposter may have little to no impact besides healing up, but even then you can get rid of it easily with trapping moves, namely Anchor Shot. Regardless, if you believe it is a problem, I still believe you should post about it in the Bans thread, not here.
Also, in my honest opinion, decent teambuilding will let you beat Imposter, but I completely disagree that decent teambuilding allows you to beat Illusion. There are OMPL games where Illusion has worked out well. GL Volkner won an OMPL game using it. Motherlove and Willdbeast have lots of games using it in OMPL.
Want the replays? Have them.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-773107894
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-779377481
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-766680809
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-766658509
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-688449709
Don't lead with Illusion and don't send them out on things that utilize FakeSpeed. Problem solved. Illusions strength is targeting specific checks to remove them from the game. There are few things Illusion can't do but sending it out against Pokemon who utilize priority is one of them.
Of course, you won't be able to utilize things like Illusion Registeel effectively. Illusion would go good on any sort of wallbreaker. The only way you can really revenge kill Illusion Pokemon is by Pursuit trapping them which works on Mega Gengar but not on many of the others. This assumes you have a banded Tyranitar or Gyarados on your team to begin with.
Also, as Illusion re-activates later in battle after you switch in again and the Illusion can be disguised as a different Pokemon (first time can be Mega Diancie, the next can be Giratina), I'd argue it is not a one time advantage. It can definitely be abused multiple times during the midst of a game.
The meta is already particularly unpredictable even without Illusion factored in. Unless the Pokemon is resistant or weak to Stealth Rock, you won't be able to tell if it's Illusion most of the time, and if the opponent was dedicated enough, they could keep hazards off the battlefield especially if they were also using Shedinja. As for Spikes, every Pokemon but Flying Pokemon takes the same amount of damage.
I genuinely ask that some of you reconsider your Do Not Ban stance here. Illusion may be harder to use on ladder than many might think, but when you find the right times to send out Illusion and the best Pokemon to disguise as, it can be deadly in OMPL matches. This isn't to say that ladder doesn't have trouble with it either. I have used it many times and so many times I have seen the opponent make a bad move and end up giving me one or more free turns because of Illusion, like Volt Switch on an Illusion Mega Garchomp. It is completely unfair and uncompetitive at the basic level. It may not be overpowered to many people, but if you find out how to use it correctly and efficiently, it ends up giving you more of an advantage than any other ability could due to it giving you free turns to attack or set up without the threat of Imposter Chansey.
Sorry in advance , for my "bad" english
I have the reqs.
For this suspect test, I played a team with M-Diancie Pixilate and a MMX band Illusion for kill classics check of Diancie.
I made some kills with the illusion, I understand why some people want ban it... But I think I will vote No Ban.
I find Illusion is strong but not "so noncompetitive" because you can easily check with some moves like Fake out, King Shield, Baneful Bunker...
Also, Illusion is very useful in the begin of the game, but is like lures, when you see it is a lure, you can play with this information, and Illusion become a mediocre ability. Illusion isn't so different of the classics lures, you lose a pokemon because mind game, but if you scout the lure before, the lure become useless. You can scout Illusion with his percent of life, with a status, with hazard, lead imposter...
Illusion is hard to use correctly, need a good team-building to use it correctly, and in the ladder isn't common to see Illusion.
Illusion isn't Splash-able ability. I see only 2-3 pokemons who can use this ability correctly.
Illusion can be check and eliminate, if you succeed to scout this set before (and isn't so hard).
I understand why some people want ban it, it's true the fact Illusion can kill a pokemon in the begin if you didn't check it is an illusion, but this is the case of all lures, if you didn't check the set, you will lose a mon. It's why i will vote No ban.
I have the reqs.
For this suspect test, I played a team with M-Diancie Pixilate and a MMX band Illusion for kill classics check of Diancie.
I made some kills with the illusion, I understand why some people want ban it... But I think I will vote No Ban.
I find Illusion is strong but not "so noncompetitive" because you can easily check with some moves like Fake out, King Shield, Baneful Bunker...
Also, Illusion is very useful in the begin of the game, but is like lures, when you see it is a lure, you can play with this information, and Illusion become a mediocre ability. Illusion isn't so different of the classics lures, you lose a pokemon because mind game, but if you scout the lure before, the lure become useless. You can scout Illusion with his percent of life, with a status, with hazard, lead imposter...
Illusion is hard to use correctly, need a good team-building to use it correctly, and in the ladder isn't common to see Illusion.
Illusion isn't Splash-able ability. I see only 2-3 pokemons who can use this ability correctly.
Illusion can be check and eliminate, if you succeed to scout this set before (and isn't so hard).
I understand why some people want ban it, it's true the fact Illusion can kill a pokemon in the begin if you didn't check it is an illusion, but this is the case of all lures, if you didn't check the set, you will lose a mon. It's why i will vote No ban.
Attachments
The entire concept of dont send illusion out vs this mon or that mon is moronic. Yes ofc youre gonna send it out against a wall but that by no means guarantees its not going to get revenged by any faster mon. What exactly did you mean by the only way to revenge illusion gar is to pursuit trap it. Any faster mon beats it (Including surprisingly fake speed -ates).Time to refute some more DNB arguments.
All you need is one KO to already have the advantage. If you can eliminate the check to a specific Pokemon, the opposing team will have a much more difficult time trying to take it out, and a lot of times the team will start to hemorrhage under the pressure due to lacking a check of the Pokemon you're disguising as.
Illusion can re-activate later in battle and due to bugs Illusion can make you appear as different Pokemon mid-match. The only way to beat Illusion is to make the Illusion Pokemon faint. Prankster SubPass is definitely niche, and while it works well, you can only get so many uses out of it. Of course, the opponent is simply going to stop switching in their Illusion Pokemon into your Prankster mon once he learns about it. Why switch in Illusion when Illusion can't beat that Pokemon?
Also, scouting for Illusion isn't really possible unless you see the opponent has a normal Kangaskhan, and next to no one at high ladder leads with an Illusion Pokemon because of Imposter Chansey with Fake Out. Using Prankster Sub does not count as scouting for Illusion because some times it may not be terribly obvious that the opposing Pokemon is Illusion (e.g. when Mega Rayquaza uses Moongeist Beam, is it Mega Rayquaza or an Illusion Mega Gengar?).
Again, we're pointing fingers at a different issue to try and justify Illusion's place in the meta. Other things being an issue should not have an effect on this Suspect Test. Imposter Chansey is not broken either in my opinion. The sole reason is because it is entirely one-dimensional and if you take the time to improof your team, Imposter may have little to no impact besides healing up, but even then you can get rid of it easily with trapping moves, namely Anchor Shot. Regardless, if you believe it is a problem, I still believe you should post about it in the Bans thread, not here.
Also, in my honest opinion, decent teambuilding will let you beat Imposter, but I completely disagree that decent teambuilding allows you to beat Illusion. There are OMPL games where Illusion has worked out well. GL Volkner won an OMPL game using it. Motherlove and Willdbeast have lots of games using it in OMPL.
Want the replays? Have them.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-773107894
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-779377481
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-766680809
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-766658509
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-688449709
Don't lead with Illusion and don't send them out on things that utilize FakeSpeed. Problem solved. Illusions strength is targeting specific checks to remove them from the game. There are few things Illusion can't do but sending it out against Pokemon who utilize priority is one of them.
Of course, you won't be able to utilize things like Illusion Registeel effectively. Illusion would go good on any sort of wallbreaker. The only way you can really revenge kill Illusion Pokemon is by Pursuit trapping them which works on Mega Gengar but not on many of the others. This assumes you have a banded Tyranitar or Gyarados on your team to begin with.
Also, as Illusion re-activates later in battle after you switch in again and the Illusion can be disguised as a different Pokemon (first time can be Mega Diancie, the next can be Giratina), I'd argue it is not a one time advantage. It can definitely be abused multiple times during the midst of a game.
The meta is already particularly unpredictable even without Illusion factored in. Unless the Pokemon is resistant or weak to Stealth Rock, you won't be able to tell if it's Illusion most of the time, and if the opponent was dedicated enough, they could keep hazards off the battlefield especially if they were also using Shedinja. As for Spikes, every Pokemon but Flying Pokemon takes the same amount of damage.
I genuinely ask that some of you reconsider your Do Not Ban stance here. Illusion may be harder to use on ladder than many might think, but when you find the right times to send out Illusion and the best Pokemon to disguise as, it can be deadly in OMPL matches. This isn't to say that ladder doesn't have trouble with it either. I have used it many times and so many times I have seen the opponent make a bad move and end up giving me one or more free turns because of Illusion, like Volt Switch on an Illusion Mega Garchomp. It is completely unfair and uncompetitive at the basic level. It may not be overpowered to many people, but if you find out how to use it correctly and efficiently, it ends up giving you more of an advantage than any other ability could due to it giving you free turns to attack or set up without the threat of Imposter Chansey.
Also idk why you guys keep bringing up chansey, it was a direct consequense of using illusion, not complaining against it.
The same argument about Illusion drastically altering OMPL matches can be used for any niche set that happens to catch your opponent off guard. I concede that Illusion is a good offensive ability but by no means is it ban worthy. Those matches that supposedly showcase how broken this ability is could potentially have been won by using some random niche set too.
When I say team building is a possible solution to this I dont mean on the same level as that of improofing the team. Having moves like protect on certain walls can go a long way in dealing with this.
i vote BAN and this tier is so fucking exhausting, catch me never laddering again
shoutout to Willdbeast for letting me know about this suspect
shoutout to Willdbeast for letting me know about this suspect
Storm Eagle
Banned deucer.
If the Illusion Pokemon switches out, it's ability will re-activate later in battle when it switches back in. An Illusion Pokemon is not going to stay in on a FakeSpeed Pokemon, it'll switch out 100% of the time.
Not really. Illusion has a bigger effect than many other possible sets would in OMPL. Some of those matches were won entirely by Illusion. There are scenarios where I have personally won games only because I had Illusion. If I had any other ability I would have lost those games. That's because Illusion forces your opponent to make bad plays. Let's not theorymon sets that 'could have' won games for OMPL players. It stands as a fact that they won partially or completely because of Illusion.
Yes and in a way you can make your team a lot less effective due to this. Not every wall can afford the moveslot to run a protecting moves. You're going to want healing and U-Turn/Anchor Shot on a wall to begin with, and depending on the set, you're going to want to run different moves for it, like Revelation Dance, Haze, Spectral Thief, or Core Enforcer. A lot of the time you'll only really have any sort of room for protection moves on Wishpassers. Most of the time protection moves are generally seen on offensive mons like FakeSpeeders or niche Mega Mewtwo X sets. Other than that, you occasionally see protection moves on Poison Healers, but due to the massive role compression that happens in BH often times you'll want to forego the protection move for something more useful.
I still don't understand why people continue to say that you can scout Illusion. I also disagree with the sentiment that Illusion is better early game. I believe Illusion is better used mid-game when you find out what has FakeSpeed and Baneful Bunker/King's Shield, so that you can maximize the effectiveness of Illusion. Even then there's still the issue of setup sweepers. I don't believe you have tried Illusion Red Orb Groudon either, which is one of the easiest wincons you can have on a team.
I really hate it when people compare lures and Illusion. They play very differently. There's already an argument that's been made between lures and Illusion and how both are very different, but I'll quote it.
I agree that Illusion is not splashable and also that Illusion is hard to use but disagree with the sentiment that only 2 or 3 Pokemon can use Illusion. Just because the SetPedia only lists a few does not mean those are the only viable Illusion Pokemon. Any wallbreaker can be an effective Illusion Pokemon. Mega Mewtwo X, Mega Gengar, Mega Rayquaza, and Primal Kyogre are all examples. You could go into more niche examples too, like Mega Diancie, Kartana, and Pheromosa (yes Illusion Pheromosa is used and is not a theorymon).
Like I said before, in the right scenarios, Illusion is broken and completely uncompetitive. Flint thinks so, as far as I've seen, the entirety of the BHC council is pro-ban, some of the best players around like motherlove, sl42, and GL Volkner want it banned. That should be extremely concerning to players who want to vote Do Not Ban. I don't understand how literally showing OMPL games where Illusion wins games is not a good enough argument for people.
Illusion can only really be checked by tracking health bars and switching accordingly, and at high ladder games the Illusion mon will just use different moves and play mindgames to compensate.
Illusion doesn't just kill Pokemon on the opponent's team, it removes checks to the Pokemon you're disguising as. I've mentioned this at least a dozen times in this thread and I'll continue to do so until my point is made. If your opponent can not check or counter one of your Pokemon at all, then that Pokemon may end up being a wincon in one way. It's not Illusion being the wincon. It's Illusion eliminating checks for specific things so that other teammates in your team CAN be a wincon. Huge difference.
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