BH BH7 Suspect #7: Sleep Clause- Voter ID & Information

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E4 Flint

E4 Flint

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What?
I am beginning a suspect on implementing the Sleep Clause as per discussion in the Suspect Thread and the Suspect Poll (more information below)

Why?
(Original Announcement - including my thoughts on the issue)
(Suspect Poll)
Recap on Sleep in BH:
  • A mechanic that has been a part of BH since its beginning, Sleep is a powerful tool to immobilize a Pokemon for 1-3 turns. As part of Gen 6, the Sleep Reset Counter was removed which made it a lot easier to handle
  • Gen 7 brought with it new tools to combat Sleep including Comatose, like Electric and Misty Terrains
  • There is still a certain pressure that Sleep moves have on the tier; for instance, the high usage of Safety Goggles for its ability to block Spore, the RNG associated with Lovely Kiss that can make or break a game for either side and so on
  • Based on the Suspect Poll, Sleep Clause is seen as the most viable solution to control its impact on the tier
How?
  • We will be using the new suspect process laid out by Zarel here(aka no COIL). I already did not support game limits so that shouldn't be an issue.
    Therefore the requirements simply are 84 GXE with at least 35 games.
  • Do so by making a new alt with the sequence "SP" in it anywhere, but not separated.
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  • I will also hold a mini contest, where the alt I like the most will also be given a shoutout during the final announcement in the BH Discord (and maybe even a custom role) and the voting thread on Smogon
I have several reasons: allows me to eyeball ladder/room for suspect activity for future suspect tweaks, lets people know who are participating in suspect/raises awareness, etc. However, the key one that should matter is that if you don't have an alt with one with reqs, you can't vote/I won't count your vote.
Where?
You must post your proof of reqs in this thread and play your games on the main pokemonshowdown.com sim. A new Balanced Hackmons (suspect) ladder shall be created for this suspect. Sleep Clause will be in effect in the ladder for the duration of this suspect.

Do:
  • Post your proof and, if you wish, your stance on the matter briefly, in this thread. Read the following CAREFULLY on how to do so:
    • you MUST FIRST AND FOREMOST PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP. I can't stress that last part enough. Refer to these examples of how to do this: example1example2example3
      • If you don't do at least the above, your vote won't be counted. I will be very strict about this.
  • Post in this thread if you have any questions about THIS SUSPECT PROCESS
Do NOT:
  • Post your stance in detail on the matter in this thread without proof. (Why? Post in the main suspect thread instead)
  • Post anything in this thread unrelated to this suspect (with or without proof)
When?
This suspect period will last until 11:59PM Saturday, February 23, 2019. I will try to begin the voting immediately after confirming some other details on how it will be done and posting the Voter Id Thread similar to past suspects.

GLHF!
---
TLDR?
 
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you know i've been thinking about it and i'm really not sure whether sleep clause will really fix the problems everyone has been talking about in the suspect thread.

ph xern is commonly cited as a mon that sleep clause is necessary to keep in check, but i don't think sleep clause actually helps teams with less sleep protection in the matchup.

the best set, magma storm, can do two things here in particular: it can trap "answers" that lose to sleep turns and put them to sleep without fear of the opponent switching to absorb it, and it can trap more useless mons sent to absorb sleep (like soundproof zyg and ttar vs teams they don't do well vs) and take them out of the match altogether. it seems that if you don't have sleep protection, your answer needs to be able to withstand 3 turns of sleep + magma storm, and not even regenvest ogre can do that.

now let's move on to another mon that frequently uses sleep: triage ray with say, kiss/tg/moongeist. it's up vs a team with an answer that can lose to sleep: prank registeel. the registeel player has a mon that's relatively worthless and can be slept, like soundproof zyg. ray boosts to +3 as regi switches in. registeel switches to zyg on the lovely kiss.

now the regi player should be rewarded here for predicting correctly, but instead they are facing down a +3 ray with a dead weight mon on the field. regi is forced to switch in, and the ray user can click +3 moongeist into +3 oblivion wing (with +0 oblivion wing in case he lives and uses haze) to pick him off from disturbingly high percentages. the situation starts to look even more bleak if the ray has magma/sword/earth power.

if regi can somehow force out ray, it can consistently switch in and counter it. no issue there. that being said, there's another problem here: zyg isn't just dead weight at this point, it's a liability. as long as ray is alive, switching in zygarde in any situation puts you into a disadvantageous state. this isn't a big deal in the best-case scenario we outlined earlier, that being that zyg is not needed to check anything at all, but in practice this is almost never true.

overall, i'm not convinced that creating sleep clause will lead to a more competitive meta. multiple mons getting slept isn't the problem. a sleep ban might be the better solution here.
 
Hello, just a quick announcement. The Sleep Clause has been implemented on the main ladder. I am amending that part in the original post. I will still check if your alt was made after my OP announcement but since I came to know that Suspect Ladders are being phazed out, I will use your [Gen 7] Balanced Hackmons Rank just as we used to do for our old suspects.

E: OP updated
 
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I plan on voting DNB/DNI(do not implement???). I personally dont think a sleep clause will solve the sleep problem and wouldve preferred that we ban individual sleep moves instead. I would rather we just keep sleep the way it is than implement a clause that would be implemented just for the sake of implementing.
 
159225

Please Ban Spore !!!!!!!! (Sleep Clause for now)
This sleep clause was not enough and only served me once. In general, only a pokemon of the team beats the one who has Spore. However, the opponent has no interest in put a pokemon that does not pass asleep rather than the check. I think that with this clause, the sleep will not be enough nerve, but will become less spam.
 
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159541


I'll probably write something in the suspect and bans thread, but I'm most likely going to vote to add a sleep clause. In all 36 (one more than most of you so I'm definitely more experienced in this meta) games I played, the sleep clause only mattered in about 5. I used ZTest's shed stall for this run, so I had mbounce and misty surge, but the sleep clause still ended up being really helpful.
 
159757

After way more games than everyone else due to [misplays, bad mus, not paired with high people, hax, hax, and more hax]. I am going to vote against Sleep Clause because IMO it doesn't solve the problem and the better solution is to just ban the sleep moves in general. Reasoning is similar to other people.
s/o to all the people who I stole teams from.
 
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160211
I must say, laddering up to this point was perhaps the most harrowing experience I've had thus far. Beating everyone below 1300+ was a breeze, however the moment I pass that threshold, I had to fight all the juggernauts of the server, as you can see in the image. I had to even fight the (formerly) highest ranked player C.Mastersceus. He was 1800... I knocked him down to 1766.

Anyways, in regards to the Sleep Mechanic, I don't think it requires banning. While Sleep strats can be rather degenerate, they also serve as a reliable means of Improofing, walling, and wallbreaking. Also, while Sleep is splashable, I don't feel it requires unique preparation most of the time; Magic Bounce not only stops sleep, but other statuses as well, and solid offensive/defensive mons can either blitz or wall certain sleep strats to stop them in their tracks, while also having the means to beat other non-sleeper Mons. The specific Sleep-checks such as Bounce and Goggles also pressure sleepers since the GoggleBounce Mon can freely use their turn with passive immunities while the SleeperMon's turn becomes null.

I agree with the implementation of the Sleep Clause, however I don't think it should escalate beyond that point unless other broken strats like Imposter get banned too.
 
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I will be voting in favor of a Sleep Clause. While Lovely Kiss / PH Xerneas may be the main issue concerning sleep, I think implementing a clause is the best direction to go with the least amount of collateral damage. Banning sleep moves would just lead to a slippery slope in terms of the next most accurate sleep move being targeted for a ban next after the removal of the previous best one. Having a Sleep clause addresses the issue directly and just makes the most sense in a practical sense imo.

My time laddering has been much more pleasurable with a Sleep clause implemented, as Sleep sweepers (or users in genera;) actually had to be selective on what they want slept which just heightens the competitive nature of the metagame imo.
 
160310


Shitty W/L record, but well...

I vote against the Sleep Cause.
I think adding a sleep cause can make bulky/balance PH users like Regigigas and Xerneas much more useless. It impairs whole archetypes. On the other hand, several other pokémon will remain dangerous and adding a sleep cause helps nothing in the fight against them: Adaptability Mega Mewtwo X, Specs Aerilate Booburst Mega-Rayquaza still are free to nuke everything in their path, Contrary is even more free to spam and snowball through entire teams and, people can't use sleep anymore as a last resort to buy time against Pokémon like Entrainment Normalize Mega-Gengar, or a Contrary Sweeper itself preventing them from destroying their entire/rest of the team. Sleep does a lot of utility and good stuff in BH, with so many powerhouses out there and set up sweepers they will be "more free" to do their jobs.
There are some top tier abilities like Magic Bounce, Poison Heal and Misty Surge that i think are pretty enough to handle the possible "sleep spam problem" and, adding to this, Electric Surge, Safety Googles and grass types like Ferrothorn (which is viable in some teams) are always good options. Also, Prankster Spore spam is not used anymore due to Dark types being immune to Prankster and priority blocking abilities.

Thanks for reading,
Balanced Freakmons.
 
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