BH BH7 Suspect Poll 7: Sleep [Sleep Clause Selected]

Status
Not open for further replies.

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
New Year, New Suspects, with Sleep being brought up in the Suspects and Bans thread as the next meta problem that we should take a look at. I am using this poll to gauge interest in what options we should have in the potential suspect test.

Recap on Sleep in BH:
  • From the dex:
    Sleep prevents Pokémon from making a move for a random number of its turns. (Gen 5) Sleep now lasts 1-3 turns. (Gen 6) A Pokémon's sleep counter no longer resets to its original amount when switched out.
To re-familiarize yourself with the discussion you can begin here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-suspects-and-bans-thread.3588586/post-7990515

Based on my own personal thoughts as well as findings from the thread I have settled on the three following choices:
  1. Sleep Clause: Follow the precedent to reduce its power that has been seen in every other tier. The best limited approach start building towards more extreme measures, the ethos of smogon's ban process, not just my own.
  2. Specific Sleep Move Ban: Instead of banning all forms of sleep outright, this would involve doing a one-by-one ban process of each move (or a small pool of moves) to see potential impacts on the meta and then proceeding further. Another way to start with a limited approach and then build from there, while being less harsh than a total ban, but still having an avenue towards that goal if needed.
  3. No Action Required: Vote for this option if you feel that the tools provided by the BH meta at the moment are sufficient to counteract sleep in all its forms.
--
Sleep is a high impact mechanic that is being suspected. Thus, I will continue to use the new verification system introduced in previous polls to limit vote brigading or false positives/negatives. In addition, the cutoffs for this suspect will be slightly higher than have been before.
  1. Find any alt of yours that has a [Gen 7] Balanced Hackmons rank with either a win rate of 80% after at least 60 games (rounded down), or 85 GXE after 120 games. The number of games played has to be visible. In addition: I may require you to verify whether you really own the alt on PS.

  2. Post your vote for one of the 3 options above
PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP
example1 | example2 | example3
Failure to do so will invalidate your vote.

This poll will be open until Tuesday, January 29, 2019 (UTC -5).
This will leave scope for beginning a suspect hopefully by the following weekend, if needed.

Final Verified Tally
Sleep Clause: 11 (+5 invalidated) | Specific Ban: 7 | No Action: 1​
 
Last edited:

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
Would just like to reiterate a few things:

  • This is a suspect poll to decide what the suspect should be on, not the actual suspect.
  • Based on the previous, the reqs are subject to change and I am open to feedback on them. I will clearly state if any changes need to occur. As this is just a poll I am more flexible, while the actual suspect will be much more rigid in terms of requirements. They are supposed to make it easier for players who are invested into BH to have a say rather than allow just anyone come in and vote on what we should do. The suspect itself will follow more of the conventional idea that anyone who wants to have a say on the BH meta can do so.
If you wish to provide feedback on the numbers feel free to contact me on smogon or discord, or you can post in this thread.
 
1547473625267.png

Had to mess up the css to show all the info. Number of plays is not visible, but I have 1617 (visible) wins and that means I have at least that amount of plays.

E4 Flint if this doesn't count tell me and I'll provide a better image. -Validated

Option 1.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Might as well start discussing on the possible moves ban of option 2. Listed in alphabetical order.

Dark Void: With the only user being Darkrai and it's imposter, with an accuracy that screams RNG (50%), I don't think it's relevant, or would be anyway with other moves ban.
Grass Whistle / Sing: They are sound based moves, with a bad accuracy of 55%, which implies that only No-Guard users can realistically pull this off. Consider that without it, there's a 45% chance of failing with an additional 18% chance of getting a 1 turn sleep, so most of the times you won't get good results. Granted, when you see low accuracy moves the user just gives away the whole set, and you can expect sleep moves instead of receiving them out of nowhere.
Hypnosis: Barely better than the previous option and isn't sound based. To put it in perspective, you have a 40% change of missing and then a 20% of hitting but getting a 1 turn sleep; again, most of the times it's not gonna work well.
Lovely Kiss: This is the first move (given the order of this list) that actually has a positive tradeoff; most of the times you end up getting more than 1 turn of sleep. Accuracy is good enough to be somewhat consistent. This is gonna be banned if the second option wins.
Relic Song: Technically here because it causes sleep, but it has a 10% chance. Might as well use Ice Beam and fish for freeze.
Secret Power: Again it's here because sleep is a side effect when Grassy Terrain, but the chance is 30%. In case of Serene Grace it goes to 60%. It's pretty big given that it does some damage, but to make that work it takes a lot of effort, and isn't probably worth it anyway.
Sleep Powder: The bad mix of Lovely Kiss and Spore. 75% accuracy and it's a powder move. In short if it happens that both Lovely Kiss and Spore gets banned, then this will have to go too. It will still force people to run Googles, perhaps just a little less.
Spore: This move doesn't need an explanation; it defines half of all the items worn in the meta. The ban of this move will affect the meta the most, as a Spore ban will destabilize the meta more than a Lovely Kiss ban. A Spore only meta is more consistent than a Lovely Kiss meta, regarding to both RNG and counterplay (no matter how hard it tries, Spore needs Knock Off to break past Googles and without it it's just not going to work, meanwhile Lovely Kiss works depending on the server mood). Definitely the first or second thing that will be considered.
Yawn: Well. Yawn. Unless you plan on trapping, this is just phaze with extra steps. -ate Diancie could Yawn a Registeel and force either a sleep or having something else getting boombursted, preferably something that doesn't like it. But it could just run coverage and kill it with, idk, V-create.

In short, from my analysis, it looks like that the moves that need to be looked at most are Spore and Lovely Kiss, with Sleep Powder that needs to go away if the other are banned. The other moves aren't good enough to matter tbh.

Lets consider an example; PH Xern breaking AV Pogre because of sleep and Magma Storm. Xern always wins if it gets a full sleep (assuming it hits) and if Magma connects. With Spore it happens 1/12 of the times, with Lovely Kiss it happens 1/16 of the times and with Hypnosis it happens 1/20 of the times. The last one is so rare that waiting for a crit with -ate plated Diancie to drop on switchin said Pogre is a better tactic because it happens more frequently (about 8% of the times). If something is less probable than winning because of a crit, it probably isn't good enough to seriously plan against it at team building.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top