BH BH7 Suspect Poll 8: Species Clause vs Shell Smash [Read Post #52 re: Forme Clause][Suspect Shed Selected]

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E4 Flint

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The latest discussion in the Suspects and Bans thread has primarily been around offense teams exploiting using multiples of the same mons or the boosting powers of Shell Smash

Quick Recap on the Arguments:

The lack of species clause allows players to make use of multiples of the same mon, something that separates BH from other metagames, which makes teambuilding much easier since the best mon for the job can be chosen. However, this has led to the rise of spamming extremely powerful and versatile spam teams using mons like GengarMega, MewtwoMegaX or RayquazaMega when it was around, that are difficult to double or triple block against and can overwhelm their opponents. Because of this, even though there are many "benign" applications of using 2-3 multiples of the same mon on both defensive and offensive teams, there is the argument of multiple mons leading to lopsided matchups.

On the other side, most of these spam teams make use of Shell Smash which greatly increases the sweeping capabilities of a mon on both sides of the spectrum, and very heavily punishes switches or scouting. The defense drops also are great to threaten Imposter on the speed tie, especially if sashes are involved. The number of boosts in general also makes Power Trip and Stored Power potent weapons. Therefore it has been brought up because of its game-swinging nature. This is also seen in Belly Drum which has been another object of contention. Both of these have also been brought up in the past in conjunction with Dazzling/Queenly Majesty creating the powerful Anti-Priority Setup (APS) which many have said unhealthily has pushed the tier into running Prankster Haze and the like on most teams.

To re-familiarize yourself with the discussion you can begin here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-suspects-and-bans-thread.3588586/post-8201019

Based on my own personal thoughts as well as findings from the thread I have settled on the three following choices:
  1. Species Clause: You can only use one of each pokemon. This also means you can only use one of either the MewtwoMega's or CharizardMega's
    This has been replaced with Forme Clause: You may only use one of each forme of a mon on your team. This corrects the flaw in species clause as mentioned before.
  2. Shell Smash: If you choose this and also wish to ban Belly Drum, make a note of it in your post, which will act as a subpoll should that option win
  3. Other: Vote for this option if you feel that some other action needs to be taken, or if there is no action required iyo
--
I will continue to use the new verification system introduced in previous polls to limit vote brigading or false positives/negatives.
  1. Find any alt of yours that has a [Gen 7] Balanced Hackmons rank with either a win rate of 75% after at least 50 games (rounded down), or 80 GXE after 110 games. The number of games played and gxe has to be visible (i.e. no provisional Glicko). In addition: I may require you to verify whether you really own the alt on PS.

  2. Post your vote for one of the 3 options above
PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP
example1 | example2 | example3
Failure to do so will invalidate your vote.

This poll will be open until Friday, October 11, 2019 (UTC -5).
This will leave scope for beginning a suspect hopefully by the following weekend, if needed.

Final Verified Tally
Link to Results
--
FAQ:
  • This is a suspect poll to decide what the suspect should be on, not the actual suspect.​
  • Based on the previous, the reqs are subject to change and I am open to feedback on them. I will clearly state if any changes need to occur. As this is just a poll I am more flexible, while the actual suspect will be much more rigid in terms of requirements. They are supposed to make it easier for players who are invested into BH to have a say rather than allow just anyone come in and vote on what we should do. The suspect itself will follow more of the conventional idea that anyone who wants to have a say on the BH meta can do so.​
If you wish to provide feedback on the numbers feel free to contact me on smogon or discord, or you can post in this thread.
 
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https://imgur.com/a/FlpAk19
I'm a little short of 75% but that's honestly a kind of ridiculous requirement, thankfully there's a gxe option here.

I'm still on the fence about Species Clause. I really appreciate how it makes scouting harder and proper play more difficult, but the fact of the matter is it's plain worse at the job than illusion was. It's a big enough change that I'd genuinely want to see what the meta is like without it before deciding and there's not really that much time left in the gen to make a tour or the like.

Shell Smash is pretty dumb. I don't think it's anywhere near as broken as the other things we've banned so far but the counterplay is extremely centralizing and I don't think it really promotes skillfull play. Belly drum is better in this regard but still bad.

I would really like to get rid of shedinja but I honestly despair of getting anywhere with that.

E: maybe we can. Ban Shedinja
 
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Other: Shedinja

While I do understand the reasoning behind wanting Species Clause, I do not believe that a suspect is the solution when one of the main reasons behind the desire for Species Clause is due to a glitch with the hover text. This is an issue that can be addressed without the need for a suspect, and I believe we should focus on getting this glitch fixed rather than trying to outright ban Species spam (or at least I don't believe we can have an accurate discussion about Species Clause until this glitch is fixed) . Also I am of the opinion that this late in the generation it's more logical to just wait until next generation and allow the leaders to decide whether or not BH should have a Species Clause, but I sympathize with those who want it now.

Shell Smash again I do understand why it could be considered broken but I'm not 100% on this one, and other things are higher up on my list personally. While Shell Smash can swing games and in some ways centralizes teams in forcing 1-2 of PrankHaze, -atespeed, and/or Scarf Imposter (Eviolite is incredibly shaky), at the same time these are generally easy to fit on teams and are pretty reliable at stopping Smash for the most part (though Dazzling/QM smash users can bypass one of these counterplays)

As far as Shedinja goes, I think it's pretty self explanatory as to why I think this is the issue we should focus on, as it's been discussed pretty extensively over past months. (here is a post by Chessking that explains my thoughts pretty well as to why I believe shed is an issue)

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Species clause, bh needs balance

"A-a... Ae" No one was paying attention in the crossroads of New York as I was giving my speech. "A-a-Aegi..." However, one person was intrigued in what I was saying. "A-a-ae-aegislash..." Then it was just a domino effect, ten more people are watching. "Aegislash..." A hundred were now watching, this had caught the attention of even the busy drivers in rush hour. Their faces in anticipation, some were even scared. Others were complaining that this isn't the real deal. "AEGISLASH..." But they all suddenly started cheering, shaking, praying. When they heard my tone, my pitch, my timbre.... they all knew what was going to come next. They realized... that salvation of the human race has finally come. "AEGISLASH BAD!!!"



And then the silence broke "OOOIOIIUUUUUGHHHhJJHHHHHWAASEAAAa//::"
Thousands of people fell to their knees, yelling orgasmically. People starting crying tears of joy, others were running and thanking God, News reporters were already on the scene, broadcasting the entire thing nationwide and consequently the entire world. Hundreds of people came out of their cars, buses, taxis, stores, and subway stations hooting and hollering. It was a miracle unfolding. I started to say the next sentence relayed to me by our Lord and Savior. "A-a-ae... Aegi..." Already some people fainted at just the mere sound of my voice. Even more people came. Some were jumping from planes thousands of feet in the air, others ran or swam miles to here in mere seconds. I think I even spotted a few famous people. "AEGI..."



Nearly a million people were here now. There's now Europeans, Canadians, Mexicans, Latin Americans, West Coasters, Africans, and even several Asians and one Australian. They were screaming hysterically, bringing gifts for me, taking pictures and videos. Fireworks and confetti everywhere, helicopters, and even Donald Trump was here with his family bowing down to me. "AEGI-S-S-SLASH voice crack" A billion people were here now. Even animals from all over the world were coming in herds. I could see Pewdiepie & Martiza, Elon Musk, Keanu Reeves, Lil Nas X, 50 Cent, Oprah Winfrey, the Kardashians, and so many other people. Many people were having seizures, heart attacks, and strokes from the sheer excitement, and some were being trampled to death because of the huge crowd. The screaming was deafening. Some just came straight out of their bathroom, school, work, or their parenting... but it doesn't matter now. "AAAAEEEGGGGIIISLAAAASHHHHH" No matter what was your race, gender, ethnicity, sexuality, religion, economic class, etc... it didn't matter. All of humanity has come together for this one moment. Millions of people have died to due plane crashes, car crashes, doctors abandoning their patients, parents abandoning their children... just to be here, but it will all be worth it.



Nearly half of humanity is here now. Even the dead came out their graves for this. Everyone is climbing on top of each other and on the walls of skyscrapers since they couldn't fit. So many lights, music, dancing, feasts... yet barely a minute passed. Humanity is very interesting. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... I look at the smiling faces of the crowd in front of me. I look at the death and destruction that came from sacrifice to attend this event. This is it. We're ready. 0. "Aegislash bad Registeel bad FC Chansey bad Zyg+Tina bad Ladder bad Ladder player bad bh staff bad"

"AaAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAyyyYYYYYYYYYYYyaYayaYaASyAAaYaaYayaAAAaaUGgGHHhHHhhHHhhHHhmmmmMMMMmMmMMMMMMMMMhhhhhhHhFFFfffF"
Billions of people around the world disintegrated into their pure chemical compounds that composed their bodies, then their atoms, then their protons/neutrons/electrons, and finally their quarks... as they heard that holy sentence. The distant echoes of yelling can heard from thousands of miles. This... this was their ultimate purpose in life. This is the culmination of everything that has happened in human history, it is reason why life even existed in the first place. They weren't screaming in terror, they were shouting in orgasmic joy. They could finally die happy. Their entire lives flashed before their eyes as they saw their loved ones. They saw their ultimate fantasy. They can finally be freed from their imperfect bodies in this imperfect world.



The Sun blinked out. The Moon crashed into the Earth. The Earth turned into dust. The Solar System collapsed into a state of entropy. The Milky Way hosts a firework show of supernovas. All the galaxies of the universe colliding with one another. Reality is falling apart. That's because reality doesn't need to exist anymore. It has reached its goal. Spacetime has fallen. Matter ceases to exist. Not even the concept of nothing exists. The universe was never born. Humanity is gone. Everything is gone. We are now one. Evil doesn't exist anymore. Insecurities don't exist anymore. Fear, sadness, anger don't exist anymore. Just hope, love, and harmony for eternity. This is what we were meant to be. This is our final evolution stage. This is heaven. This is what it means to be happy. Congratulations.
 
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Man I want all three options but I'll go with Other: Shedinja. See ITH's post for reasoning (also kindly linked one of my posts on Shed). Easily the most restraining element when teambuilding. Shell Smash is gross but tbh its better than Belly Drum which is straight up uncompetitive.
 

Chloe

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41/50=82%

Other: Shedinja

Truthfully I don't see Species Clause or Shell Smash as such pressing issues in the metagame, nor do I consider them problematic. Shedinja on the other hand is one of, if not the most restrictive thing to consider when teambuilding. It remains as such an odd unnecessary aspect in the metagame. There are plenty of posts that explain why it gots to go better than I ever could.
 

Funbot28

Sé que a ti te gustan mis labios de fresa
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jesus fuck i should reset that w/l ratio lol

Other: Shedinja

While I do understand the reasoning behind wanting Species Clause, I do not believe that a suspect is the solution when one of the main reasons behind the desire for Species Clause is due to a glitch with the hover text. This is an issue that can be addressed without the need for a suspect, and I believe we should focus on getting this glitch fixed rather than trying to outright ban Species spam (or at least I don't believe we can have an accurate discussion about Species Clause until this glitch is fixed) . Also I am of the opinion that this late in the generation it's more logical to just wait until next generation and allow the leaders to decide whether or not BH should have a Species Clause, but I sympathize with those who want it now.

Shell Smash again I do understand why it could be considered broken but I'm not 100% on this one, and other things are higher up on my list personally. While Shell Smash can swing games and in some ways centralizes teams in forcing 1-2 of PrankHaze, -atespeed, and/or Scarf Imposter (Eviolite is incredibly shaky), at the same time these are generally easy to fit on teams and are pretty reliable at stopping Smash for the most part (though Dazzling/QM smash users can bypass one of these counterplays)

As far as Shedinja goes, I think it's pretty self explanatory as to why I think this is the issue we should focus on, as it's been discussed pretty extensively over past months. (here is a post by Chessking that explains my thoughts pretty well as to why I believe shed is an issue)
Basically my stance on the matter as well and don't really have much to add. While Smash spam is annoying for sure, its really only something that has success on ladder to catch players off guard and is kinda an unreliable strategy for the most part especially given the prominence of Prankster Haze mons (that are not just for Smash Spam mind you). I feel if we want to target setup spam, then implementing a Species Clause would be the better direction to go with.

However, I really feel that Shedinja has proven to cause a bigger nuisance on teambuilding as a whole for a while now. Mandating Ghost types on each team can be really hard especially given how good mons such as Mega Gar are and how they can take advantage of mons such as Giratina and Aegi being forced out in order to setup and possibly just win from there. It is just too easy to support Shed rn and the payoff it can bring to each game is kinda getting ridiculous now. Fully support a suspect on it right now.

edit: to be clear my vote is Other: Shedinja
 
https://imgur.com/a/S8zUpEY

Please suspect Species Clause. My ultimate goal in this meta ever since I’ve began has been to ruin the enjoyment of this game for a user known as MasterMewtwo. My plan has finally come to fruition with this opportunity, and the BH Illuminati and I will do our best to make sure Species Clause is enacted for the sole reason of upsetting him.

Seriously tho, species clause just makes scouting near impossible and takes away from the integrity of the meta as a whole. There’s no real reason for us not to have a species clause considering basically every other meta does, and the only real strats this severely harms are Species spam, which is toxic af, and if you wanted to run double Chans or something but there are other *passable* Imp users so it’s fine.
 
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Other: Shedinja
Was really split between species clause and shed because both have been unhealthy for a while (smash ban would be a dumb way to deal with this as it's not the main reason species spam works) but shed's improof game is crazy and has been for a major part of the meta, even leading to some weird shed spam gimmicks because of the ways people have had to deal with this mon. I think it's more urgent to deal with shed but if we have time at the tail end of the gen species clause should go too
 
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First time involving in my favourite meta <3. No more cancer mewtwo gengar spam. Promote easy team-building and winning/losing based on team matchup.

5 shedinja? Is this sash Pixilate? Sturdinja? Magic bounce? Who knows

5 mewtwo x? Is this a lead rock? Sash dazzling smash? Refrigerate? Prankster destiny taunt? Who knows

6 chansey? Is this magic bounce? Prankster rock? Final gambit? Unaware? Fur coat? Who knows

Species clause
 
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