Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

[GG Unit]

Aw crap, I just wrapped up a "You like battles, too!" run with Durant/Cloyster/Gliscor but accidentally closed the tab where I was doing a writeup for the team. I'll keep it on the briefer side for now and maybe go back and edit later. Here's a video where I actually got some footage of the elusive Janitor, and there are a few more of this team on that channel.

Durant and Gliscor are the same as before. The Cloyster:

@ Leftovers
Adamant, 156 HP, 252 Atk, 92 Def, 10 Sp. Def (suboptimal spread - I bred this Cloyster while I was still rusty on RNG and was just breeding it the 'old-fashioned' way with a Ditto I had RNGed however many years ago until I got one with good enough stats. This has a low Speed IV and if you had one with perfect stats it would be wise to speed creep a little. I actually lost streaks of 750 and 816 where I mostly screwed up but still got both battles to a position where a 31 Speed IV Cloyster would have 100% won lol)
- Sub
- Protect
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear

Boosts super fast and does a lot of damage (+4 Cloyster Spear does the same as +6 Dragonite Dragon Claw to neutral targets). Cloyster can do well with this in any facility where Leftovers are available for it, but

1) perma Sandstream
2) no Infiltrator/sound moves for stuff like Chandelure/Volcarona to bypass Subs
3) being a turn 1 switch in to Weavile Fake Out
4) crits hitting hard enough to give you a ~19% chance of OHKOing like a Registeel or Aggron

makes Sub/Lefties stand out even more compared to 2nd attack/Sash here IMO. Compared to the team with Glalie, some bulky Ice/Waters such as QC Dewgong (if this is the lead and uses Fake Out turn 1, switch to Gliscor and sac it so Dewgong will need to QC and crit Durant to prevent Entrainment rather than just QC) and PerishTrap Lapras are more annoying. Other heavy Ice resists such as OHKO Walrein can still be PP stalled, so it's not that bad.

I'm sitting on 1008 straight and going forward I'm going to be subbing this into Cloyster's spot:

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Clear Body
Calm
172 HP, 28 Def, 252 SpA, 4 SpD, 52 Spe
- Sub
- Protect
- Acupressure
- Scald

The bulk lets its Sub take a non-Air Slash move from any Speed Boost Yanmega that manages to KO Durant and an Iron Head from Cobalion when both are equal in Attack/Defense boosts.

 

[Brucolac]

Is there something like a viable Hail team? It may be argued that Hail is the worst weather.
Reporting a streak with a Hail team, so let’ see…

SPOILER: streak length

196 wins, kinda first try, which is a personal best with a team of my own.

TEAM

Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Hail
- Protect

Whimsicott @ Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / Rest Def/SDef, don't even know
Modest Nature
- Tailwind
- Encore
- Fake Tears
- Grass Knot

Rotom-Frost @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt
- Electro Ball
- Protect

Machamp @ Expert Belt
Ability: No Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 4HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Protect

Speeds: Rotom 138, Whimsi 136, Abomasnow 123, Machamp 117

Team building

I talked about a similar team a while ago, and suggested Hail-setter + Tailwind-setter + Nidoking + Kartana for a later generation. Here, in the final team I have Abomasnow, Whimsicott, Rotom-F and Machamp. First I tried similar sets, but with Metagross instead of Machamp, because Metagross. It worked well, that is until you notice that every random Froslass makes you lose. Maybe some of you who tried to build a Hail team also gave up, when on top of all the other problems of Hail-teams, one also has to deal with all time active Snow Veil. I looked for what can hit Ice types, and well, here comes No Guard Machamp. I played it with Close Combat, and the other team members also had different sets: Whimsi had Endeavor and not yet Fake Tears, and Rotom did not have Electro Ball. I managed to get to shaky 89 wins. I settled for a while, but then tried again, with the now in hindsight obvious changes, Fake Tears, Electro Ball and Dynamic Punch. The shakiness vanished, and I got first try to 196! Fake Tears of course is all powerful, but also Dynamic Punch, which does not corrupt Machamps bulk was crucial (I for example lost the previous streak because Hippowdon could KO because of this). Oh, and I replaced Machamps Rockslide for EQ, which was way better. Bullet Punch may be a thing, I only did not have it because I needed to breed, but I also don’t know what to replace. Anyways, this was the team, and it surpassed all my expectations by far! Yeah, Hail is viable…

Perks and playing

Usual play is Protect + Tailwind, let the enemy eat a round of Hail, then sweep with Blizzard + Fake Tears. Often the enemy just gets overwhelmed, and if problems occur Machamp comes in and solves them. Switching almost never is an option due to a lack of resistances, but it also is not necessary most of the time. Really, I don’t know if I even switched more than 10 times in the whole run. Sometimes turn 1 attacks of Abomasnow are crucial, especially in the face of Fake Out or Dusknoir, see threats below. Most of the time you just click Blizzard over and over. Sometimes though you need to make careful decisions and plan 2 or 3 turns ahead, about what to KO when, what to hit with Fake Tears, looking when it gets into KO range by Hail damage etc. Encore and Hail go nicely hand in hand anyways. Oh, and the AI is so dumb. Also it strongly prefers to attack Abomasnow, because aside from ice moves, it is weaker in all defenses than Whimsi. Whimsi has strange EVs, I took the one I had, but it worked well. (The IVs of the four are poor in general lol, only 2 or 3 stats are on 31)
The team has a superb offensive coverage, STAB Ice + Electric, then STAB Fighting, every mon has a 100+ BP STAB. Most (pseudo) legendaries are weak to some of this. As poor and monotone the defensive typing of the team is, as good is its offense. Due to Encore and Dynamic Punch, any stall attempt usually is but a joke. And evasion is bypassed that well by almost no other team in this gen.

Threats

Single most biggest threat: Fake Out. Fake Out is the single most biggest threat. Especially in turn 1, but also sometimes when it comes from the back. Below are some battles, and the streak ended by paranoia from Fake Out. Fake Out turn 1 on Whimsi + Whimsi getting killed probably is the worst case scenario, and it happened like 2 times. Some mons always seem to go for Whimsi, like Kangaskhan. Fake Out is so scary, that I started pondering about removing one of Whimsis unreplacable moves for Protect…

Ice Resists: Often everything just gets worn down. Against waters Abomasnow stays around forever. Many Steels and Fires though survive Hail damage + Fake Tears + Blizzard, and obviously cause pain in return. Still, often they just get overwhelmed, also because Abomasnow has a Sash. And Machamp shines against many of them, as he can OHKO most fire types and many steels, especially with the omnipresent chip damage this team deals. Some fire types like Magmortar are OHKOed by Hail + EQ. Escavalier for instance takes 85% from Electro Ball under Tailwind, so it’s just a matter of chip, which you want to deal anyways. Even facing multiple ice resists, one usually can overwhelm them. And of course against ice types and their raised evasion Machamp also shines – it was the reason I considered it in the first place. Of course smart protecting also is a thing. And probably the preference of the AI to go for Abomasnow over Whimsi does also a lot. I did not plan it, but Whimsi had slightly higher defenses and HP than Abo, and it may be crucial.

Enemy weather, most notably sand: Can be bad. If it is set manually, Encore may be a thing, and then resetting Hail at the appropriate time. Often I just manually reset by using Abos Hail. The most problematic scenarios occurred, when Sand came again from the back and Abomasnow cannot reset Hail for some reason (for instance due to not living anymore). Enjoy battle 118 below.

Conkeldurr/Priority: Having a 1HP Abomasnow sitting in front of priority of course is inconvenient, and Conkeldurr somehow seems to be the most notorious, probably because of its bulk. While switching almost never is an option, one can play around it a bit, and soften things with Fake Tears.

Trickroom: The usual play is to Encore the TR in the second turn, which is usually an easy win then. That may fail, if Whimsi dies in turn1, which I think never happened, or if Dusknoir4 is the setter. This is stressful, because it may go with Shadow Sneak in the next turn, before Whimsi can Encore it into TR. So often the best play is Fake Tears + Blizzard, to get some damage rolling. Then Dusknoir usually goes for something else than Shadow Sneak in turn 2, and Whimsi can force it to neuter TR. I had many battles where TR went up, and the majority is harmless.

Battles

Battle, TR

Dusknoir and Eelektross
Blizzard + Fake Tears Dusknoir. Flamethrower against Abomasnow, TR.
Probably Dusknoir goes for priority because Abo has 1HP, so I decide to attack it with Whimsi and not Encore it. Indeed they double on Abo, who protects, Grass Knot Dusknoir. Dusknoir down.
Arcanine in.
Protect, but failed, Extremespeed finishes it. Grass Knot Eelektross, Whimsi tanks Flamethrower.
Machamp in.
Try Fake Tears against Eel, but Extremespeed finishes Whimsi first. Flamethrower against Machamp. Machamp SE kills Arcanine.
Rotom in, Pinsir in.
Eel Flamethrower Rotom, burn. Machamp kills Pinsir with SE, Rotom kills Eel with Blizzard. Even with a crit on Rotom I would have won. But that was stressful.

Battle 118, Sand

Clerk Bank, uff:
I don't know the beginning anymore, but I already had 3vs2 + Tailwind. So it's Whimsi + Rotom, and in comes... Tyranitar3 and Gliscor3! Possible Sand Veil… Gliscor can OHKO everything of me, and I can hardly hit it aside from Blizzard. But it’s my best bet and I try it. It hits Tyranitar (did not matter), but fails on Gliscor, uff. Whimsi Grassknot on Gliscor crit. Tyranitar hits SE, kills Rotom, Gliscor kills Whimsi, Machamp in. Tailwind out, Machamp slower than Tyranitar but faster than Gliscor. Now only a confusion miracle will safe me. Indeed: Tar EQ, Machamp to 2/3HP, Machamp Dynamic Punch Gliscor, Glis hits itself! Tar EQ, Dynamic Punch kills Tar, Gliscor hits itself, Gliscor dies!
Bad IVs mattered, Whimsi could have survived Aerial Ace from Gliscor e.g. But I absolutely should have absolutely lost that.

Battle 130, use of Hail damage

Cresselia, Moltres.
Protect + Tailwind. Air Slash, Swagger in Abo.
Fake Tears Moltres + Blizzard. Should have maybe went for Encore on Moltres. It survives, and Heatwave + Icy Wind kills both of mine.
Rotom + Machamp in.
Cannot kill Cresselia, and do not want to take Icy Wind. Double Protect, Moltres killed by Hail.
In comes Tornadus.
Tornadus3 may survive Blizzard, so I double on him. Cresselia goes for HH, so easy take down. Landorus in. Double Protect again because Hail finishes Cresse. OHKO Lando next turn.

Battle

Regirock, Regice
Troublesome, because of spread moves, and bulky. Tailwind for backrow needed, but I need to attack, or I will get traded down because I cannot KO in the following turn. Depends much on the sets what they will survive…
Gigadrain on Regirock, Tailwind. Rockslide, Crit on Abo (would have survived the following turn), Thunderwave on Abo.
Grass Knot kills Regirock, Regice kills both of mine.
Rotom and Machamp in, Regigigas comes in.
Rotom Blizzard, freezes Regigigas, Machamp OHKOs Regice with Dynamic Punch.
Zapdos in, clean up.

Battle, Fake Out

Charizard-Scarf, Kangaskhan, scariest battle.
Oh oh.
Blizzard, because Fake Out, and indeed it Fake Outs Whimsi, and Charizard kills with Heat Wave, Abo 1 HP, no Tailwind.
Machamp in (Rotom might die full HP to Heat Wave).
Protect with Abo, Heat Wave, burns Machamp, Kang Double Edge into Abo, Machamp kills Charizard.
In comes Serperior. Abo 1HP, Machamp burned 48 HP. Both are outsped and OHKOed by both enemies. Reasoning: If I protect one of mine (Machamp because it did not protect the previous turn), then Rotom will not be double targeted the following turn. So I protect Machamp, who will survive with 20 HP after burn and hail. And… both attacks go into Machamp and I land Blizzard, which does 70% to Serperior, freezes it and kills Kang! What a turn of events lol. The freeze did not matter so much, but the stupid AI
In comes Drifblim. Battle is over because Rotom outspeeds Serperior, survives a crit from Drifblim and OHKOs both, but for the record: Drifblim could outspeed and kill both with Icy Wind, but kills Machamp with Shadow Ball. Serperior frozen, Abo kills it with Blizzard, and a sliver, I kill it next turn.
Machamp with Bullet Punch would maybe have provided more options…

Losing battle

Battle 197, Vanilluxe and Beartic
Normal Protect + Tailwind. Vanilluxe Icebeam into Protect, Beartic hits Whimsi with Icy Wind.
Next, Fake Tears into Vanilluxe, then Blizzard, both opponents at around 75%. Beartic kills Whimsi, Vanilluxe uses Icebeam to bring Abomasnow a little below half.
Machamp in. Abomasnow Giga Drain against Vanilluxe, now at 75% again, Machamp OHKOs Beartic. Vanilluxe goes for Icebeam, Abomasnow at 33 HP.
In comes Jynx… and I get slightly nervous, because of – Fake Out! And I, smart as I am, want to outstall this potential Fake Out turn and go for double Protect, as I count how many moves Abomasnow used, and I find, that I still have a Tailwind turn left after, and probably easy game from there… However that is not true, Tailwind peters out, and I see, that I overlooked that I already used Gigadrain. From here it’s basically over, if the AI plays smart. Well Jynx didn’t even go for Fake Out against Machamp before.. And it does not kill Machamp with Psychic, but goes for Blizzard. It kills Abomasnow, but worse, it freezes Machamp. It stays frozen and gets killed by Vanilluxe. Rotom comes in. Maybe there was even a chance to win, because Jynx goes for Lovely Kiss and Vanilluxe for Taunt. However it hits, and although Rotom has an early wake up, it gets killed. Last was Glaceon.
Very avoidable loss.. I had more difficult battles before, where the chance of winning and making the right calls was way slimmer, but that’s how it goes. Proud of having made a Hail team come that far. I don’t know if there are other viable Hail teams possible in this gen, as I think that something like Machamp/Golurk with No Guard is mandatory. TR + Hail of course could work, too.

Other than on my previous posts, now I finally deliver proofs, have a look on YouTube:

Also for previous streaks there are some battles.

I am kinda glad the streak is over, as to how it always occupies my mind. It's the personal best with a team of my own, so I'm happy about that. Thanks for reading!

 

[GG Unit]

Is there something like a viable Hail team? It may be argued that Hail is the worst weather.
Reporting a streak with a Hail team, so let’ see…

SPOILER: streak length

196 wins, kinda first try, which is a personal best with a team of my own.

TEAM

Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Hail
- Protect

Whimsicott @ Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / Rest Def/SDef, don't even know
Modest Nature
- Tailwind
- Encore
- Fake Tears
- Grass Knot

Rotom-Frost @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt
- Electro Ball
- Protect

Machamp @ Expert Belt
Ability: No Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 4HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Protect

Speeds: Rotom 138, Whimsi 136, Abomasnow 123, Machamp 117

Team building

I talked about a similar team a while ago, and suggested Hail-setter + Tailwind-setter + Nidoking + Kartana for a later generation. Here, in the final team I have Abomasnow, Whimsicott, Rotom-F and Machamp. First I tried similar sets, but with Metagross instead of Machamp, because Metagross. It worked well, that is until you notice that every random Froslass makes you lose. Maybe some of you who tried to build a Hail team also gave up, when on top of all the other problems of Hail-teams, one also has to deal with all time active Snow Veil. I looked for what can hit Ice types, and well, here comes No Guard Machamp. I played it with Close Combat, and the other team members also had different sets: Whimsi had Endeavor and not yet Fake Tears, and Rotom did not have Electro Ball. I managed to get to shaky 89 wins. I settled for a while, but then tried again, with the now in hindsight obvious changes, Fake Tears, Electro Ball and Dynamic Punch. The shakiness vanished, and I got first try to 196! Fake Tears of course is all powerful, but also Dynamic Punch, which does not corrupt Machamps bulk was crucial (I for example lost the previous streak because Hippowdon could KO because of this). Oh, and I replaced Machamps Rockslide for EQ, which was way better. Bullet Punch may be a thing, I only did not have it because I needed to breed, but I also don’t know what to replace. Anyways, this was the team, and it surpassed all my expectations by far! Yeah, Hail is viable…

Perks and playing

Usual play is Protect + Tailwind, let the enemy eat a round of Hail, then sweep with Blizzard + Fake Tears. Often the enemy just gets overwhelmed, and if problems occur Machamp comes in and solves them. Switching almost never is an option due to a lack of resistances, but it also is not necessary most of the time. Really, I don’t know if I even switched more than 10 times in the whole run. Sometimes turn 1 attacks of Abomasnow are crucial, especially in the face of Fake Out or Dusknoir, see threats below. Most of the time you just click Blizzard over and over. Sometimes though you need to make careful decisions and plan 2 or 3 turns ahead, about what to KO when, what to hit with Fake Tears, looking when it gets into KO range by Hail damage etc. Encore and Hail go nicely hand in hand anyways. Oh, and the AI is so dumb. Also it strongly prefers to attack Abomasnow, because aside from ice moves, it is weaker in all defenses than Whimsi. Whimsi has strange EVs, I took the one I had, but it worked well. (The IVs of the four are poor in general lol, only 2 or 3 stats are on 31)
The team has a great offensive coverage, STAB Ice + Electric, then STAB Fighting, every mon has a 100+ BP STAB. Most (pseudo) legendaries are weak to some of this. As poor and monotone the defensive typing of the team is, as good is its offense. Also evasion is bypassed that well by almost no other team in this gen.

Threats

Single most biggest threat: Fake Out. Fake Out is the single most biggest threat. Especially in turn 1, but also sometimes when it comes from the back. Below are some battles, and the streak ended by paranoia from Fake Out. Fake Out turn 1 on Whimsi + Whimsi getting killed probably is the worst case scenario, and it happened like 2 times. Some mons always seem to go for Whimsi, like Kangaskhan. Fake Out is so scary, that I started pondering about removing one of Whimsis unreplacable moves for Protect…

Ice Resists: Often everything just gets worn down. Against waters Abomasnow stays around forever. Many Steels and Fires though survive Hail damage + Fake Tears + Blizzard, and obviously cause pain in return. Still, often they just get overwhelmed, also because Abomasnow has a Sash. And Machamp shines against many of them, as he can OHKO most fire types and many steels, especially with the omnipresent chip damage this team deals. Some fire types like Magmortar are OHKOed by Hail + Blizzard + EQ. Escavalier for instance takes 85% from Electro Ball under Tailwind, so it’s just a matter of chip, which you want to deal anyways. Even facing multiple ice resists, one usually can overwhelm them. And of course against ice types and their raised evasion Machamp also shines – it was the reason I considered it in the first place. Of course smart protecting also is a thing. And probably the preference of the AI to go for Abomasnow over Whimsi does also a lot. I did not plan it, but Whimsi had slightly higher defenses and HP than Abo, and it may be crucial.

Enemy weather, most notably sand: Can be bad. If it is set manually, Encore may be a thing, and then resetting Hail at the appropriate time. Often I just manually reset by using Abos Hail. The most problematic scenarios occurred, when Sand came again from the back and Abomasnow cannot reset Hail for some reason (for instance due to not living anymore). Enjoy battle 118 below.

Conkeldurr/Priority: Having a 1HP Abomasnow sitting in front of priority of course is inconvenient, and Conkeldurr somehow seems to be the most notorious, probably because of its bulk. While switching almost never is an option, one can play around it a bit, and soften things with Fake Tears.

Trickroom: The usual play is to Encore the TR in the second turn, which is usually an easy win then. That may fail, if Whimsi dies in turn1, which I think never happened, or if Dusknoir4 is the setter. This is stressful, because it may go with Shadow Sneak in the next turn, before Whimsi can Encore it into TR. So often the best play is Fake Tears + Blizzard, to get some damage rolling. Then Dusknoir usually goes for something else than Shadow Sneak in turn 2, and Whimsi can force it to neuter TR. I had many battles where TR went up, and the majority is harmless.

Battles

Battle, TR

Dusknoir and Eelektross
Blizzard + Fake Tears Dusknoir. Flamethrower against Abomasnow, TR.
Probably Dusknoir goes for priority because Abo has 1HP, so I decide to attack it with Whimsi and not Encore it. Indeed they double on Abo, who protects, Grass Knot Dusknoir. Dusknoir down.
Arcanine in.
Protect, but failed, Extremespeed finishes it. Grass Knot Eelektross, Whimsi tanks Flamethrower.
Machamp in.
Try Fake Tears against Eel, but Extremespeed finishes Whimsi first. Flamethrower against Machamp. Machamp SE kills Arcanine.
Rotom in, Pinsir in.
Eel Flamethrower Rotom, burn. Machamp kills Pinsir with SE, Rotom kills Eel with Blizzard. Even with a crit on Rotom I would have won. But that was stressful.

Battle 118, Sand

Clerk Bank, uff:
I don't know the beginning anymore, but I already had 3vs2 + Tailwind. So it's Whimsi + Rotom, and in comes... Tyranitar3 and Gliscor3! Possible Sand Veil… Gliscor can OHKO everything of me, and I can hardly hit it aside from Blizzard. But it’s my best bet and I try it. It hits Tyranitar (did not matter), but fails on Gliscor, uff. Whimsi Grassknot on Gliscor crit. Tyranitar hits SE, kills Rotom, Gliscor kills Whimsi, Machamp in. Tailwind out, Machamp slower than Tyranitar but faster than Gliscor. Now only a confusion miracle will safe me. Indeed: Tar EQ, Machamp to 2/3HP, Machamp Dynamic Punch Gliscor, Glis hits itself! Tar EQ, Dynamic Punch kills Tar, Gliscor hits itself, Gliscor dies!
Bad IVs mattered, Whimsi could have survived Aerial Ace from Gliscor e.g. But I absolutely should have absolutely lost that.

Battle 130, use of Hail damage

Cresselia, Moltres.
Protect + Tailwind. Air Slash, Swagger in Abo.
Fake Tears Moltres + Blizzard. Should have maybe went for Encore on Moltres. It survives, and Heatwave + Icy Wind kills both of mine.
Rotom + Machamp in.
Cannot kill Cresselia, and do not want to take Icy Wind. Double Protect, Moltres killed by Hail.
In comes Tornadus.
Tornadus3 may survive Blizzard, so I double on him. Cresselia goes for HH, so easy take down. Landorus in. Double Protect again because Hail finishes Cresse. OHKO Lando next turn.

Battle

Regirock, Regice
Troublesome, because of spread moves, and bulky. Tailwind for backrow needed, but I need to attack, or I will get traded down because I cannot KO in the following turn. Depends much on the sets what they will survive…
Gigadrain on Regirock, Tailwind. Rockslide, Crit on Abo (would have survived the following turn), Thunderwave on Abo.
Grass Knot kills Regirock, Regice kills both of mine.
Rotom and Machamp in, Regigigas comes in.
Rotom Blizzard, freezes Regigigas, Machamp OHKOs Regice with Dynamic Punch.
Zapdos in, clean up.

Battle, Fake Out

Charizard-Scarf, Kangaskhan, scariest battle.
Oh oh.
Blizzard, because Fake Out, and indeed it Fake Outs Whimsi, and Charizard kills with Heat Wave, Abo 1 HP, no Tailwind.
Machamp in (Rotom might die full HP to Heat Wave).
Protect with Abo, Heat Wave, burns Machamp, Kang Double Edge into Abo, Machamp kills Charizard.
In comes Serperior. Abo 1HP, Machamp burned 48 HP. Both are outsped and OHKOed by both enemies. Reasoning: If I protect one of mine (Machamp because it did not protect the previous turn), then Rotom will not be double targeted the following turn. So I protect Machamp, who will survive with 20 HP after burn and hail. And… both attacks go into Machamp and I land Blizzard, which does 70% to Serperior, freezes it and kills Kang! What a turn of events lol. The freeze did not matter so much, but the stupid AI
In comes Drifblim. Battle is over because Rotom outspeeds Serperior, survives a crit from Drifblim and OHKOs both, but for the record: Drifblim could outspeed and kill both with Icy Wind, but kills Machamp with Shadow Ball. Serperior frozen, Abo kills it with Blizzard, and a sliver, I kill it next turn.
Machamp with Bullet Punch would maybe have provided more options…

Losing battle

Battle 197, Vanilluxe and Beartic
Normal Protect + Tailwind. Vanilluxe Icebeam into Protect, Beartic hits Whimsi with Icy Wind.
Next, Fake Tears into Vanilluxe, then Blizzard, both opponents at around 75%. Beartic kills Whimsi, Vanilluxe uses Icebeam to bring Abomasnow a little below half.
Machamp in. Abomasnow Giga Drain against Vanilluxe, now at 75% again, Machamp OHKOs Beartic. Vanilluxe goes for Icebeam, Abomasnow at 33 HP.
In comes Jynx… and I get slightly nervous, because of – Fake Out! And I, smart as I am, want to outstall this potential Fake Out turn and go for double Protect, as I count how many moves Abomasnow used, and I find, that I still have a Tailwind turn left after, and probably easy game from there… However that is not true, Tailwind peters out, and I see, that I overlooked that I already used Gigadrain. From here it’s basically over, if the AI plays smart. Well Jynx didn’t even go for Fake Out against Machamp before.. And it does not kill Machamp with Psychic, but goes for Blizzard. It kills Abomasnow, but worse, it freezes Machamp. It stays frozen and gets killed by Vanilluxe. Rotom comes in. Maybe there was even a chance to win, because Jynx goes for Lovely Kiss and Vanilluxe for Taunt. However it hits, and although Rotom has an early wake up, it gets killed. Last was Glaceon.
Very avoidable loss.. I had more difficult battles before, where the chance of winning and making the right calls was way slimmer, but that’s how it goes. Proud of having made a Hail team come that far. I don’t know if there are other viable Hail teams possible in this gen, as I think that something like Machamp/Golurk with No Guard is mandatory. TR + Hail of course could work, too.

Other than on my previous posts, now I finally deliver proofs, have a look on YouTube:

Also for previous streaks there are some battles.

I am kinda glad the streak is over, as to how it always occupies my mind. It's the personal best with a team of my own, so I'm happy about that. Thanks for reading!

One interesting thing to try on these kind of teams would be Cottonee over Whimsicott. I'm not sure which things Grass Knot is most often targeting, but max Sp. Atk Cottonee hits 97, which is probably at least comparable to what your Whimsicott has with no EV investment and likely not a perfect IV either. Especially if you go for low defensive IVs on Cottonee, you would probably bait Fake Out and even some Trick Room users into just going for the OHKO with a different attack. The lack of bulk not only works for baiting attacks, but there are probably certain situations (like in the loss) where it would be better for the Tailwind setter to faint immediately after using it to give the dedicated attackers more turns.

It's still a bit awkward with Abomasnow since Cottonee with a Sash would bait even more attacks and stuff that can OHKO Abomasnow could still go for it, but maybe you could have some other spread move special attacker like Eruption Entei (obviously great against Snow Veil users/Steels) leading with Cottonee and then Life Orb/Specs/whatever Abomasnow in the back to actually have some good switch-in potential on Ground/Water attacks aimed at Entei. I guess you could say that makes it less of a Hail team, but you might have the option of another Blizzard user instead of Machamp in the back row to take advantage of possible Fake Tears drops. Machamp is hard to turn down because the combo of Fighting + Ice as well as the confusion and possible freezes is pretty cool - and it handles Tyranitar - but it could be possible to defensively handle Snow Cloak users with a lefties Sub/Protect/Blizzard/x Articuno (or Ice Body Walrein/Vanilluxe), especially with an Eruption user up front.

----------------------------------------------------

With my team I have gotten past the old record of 1149 or whatever it was (1180 as of right now), so it's nice to know that wasn't a fixed point that would always cause my game to freeze. Tentacruel has been very solid, but I'm not going to make any huge pronouncements about it considering I've done fewer than 200 battles and its teammates are obviously solid enough to win plenty of battles on their own.

- I'm definitely fine with Clear Body as an ability. In yet another chapter of CPU hilarity with speed-reducing moves, when it's faster than the opponent Tentacruel can rack up Acupressure boosts unsubbed against something like Froslass that will repeatedly Icy Wind it despite no speed reduction. As with Drapion when I used it in the Maison, there are so few opportunities for a non-Truant opponent to land an attack on you that

- the 120 base Sp. Def is definitely noticeable in terms of the hits its Sub can tank. As in a Gengar Thunderbolt once failed to break the Sub at just +2 and probably any STAB Psychic that's not Specs Alakazam (which against both Glalie and Tentacruel tends to attempt Trick, fail, and switch out if it comes out 2nd) is not breaking it at +4.

- I actually did have a battle within the first 7 or 14 against a lead Forretress that used Toxic Spikes turn 1. I did set up Tentacruel until Forry exploded and swept from there, but Gliscor would have easily done so as well. In a buzzkill kind of way it might even be more prudent to set Gliscor up since you can 100% get +6 evasion while only having to use 1 Sub and 1 Protect, while still having the opportunity to bring Durant and Tentacruel back in, whereas Tentacruel is in a great position but a little bit more at the mercy of luck in what boosts it gets from the 10 or so Acupressures.

- Burning Focus Sash Garchomp, which then fails to break your Sub with Earthquake and faints to burn damage is just a chef's kiss of an interaction.

- between Glalie preventing it with Taunt and Cloyster weakening itself to the point of baiting attacks, I didn't fully appreciate how many Pokemon were going to help out Tentacruel with a friendly Rain Dance.

- I probably should replace Durant's X-Scissor with Sandstorm to give Tentacruel more of a 'normal' set-up against Abomasnow leads but have been too lazy to do so, plus when push comes to shove a Tentacruel that is 'only' getting a dozen or so boosts if you Protect every other turn (you'll almost certainly get even more boost since most Abomasnow sets really struggle to do damage to Tentacruel even with a crit) is in all likelihood going to be just fine against the Hail teams where you'd most commonly see an Abomasnow lead.

- I've been playing kind of fast and loose with setting up Tentacruel to see how it compares to Drapion in terms of how many boosts it 'actually' needs. I think this is good practice with Tentacruel anyways where every Acupressure short of 21 you use to KO the lead is another PP you have available to waste against a 2nd/3rd mon with a Water immunity (there is a Poliwrath set that's proven to be a pretty annoying PP waster where it Belly Drums immediately and will use all its Hypnosis PP against even a Subbed Tentacruel before going to Brick Break, so switching out isn't really an option). It's kind of an apples-to-oranges comparison where if Drapion had a beefed-up Knock Off and Steel not resisting Dark in gen 5, it would obviously be amazing as well (and you could still almost certainly get a 1000+ streak with Drapion if you were proactive about switching Gliscor in against a potential Lax Incense Cobalion), but I would say Tentacruel is at least on a similar tier where if you have +2 to speed, the relevant attacking stat, and evasion, you'll be super hard to beat from behind a Sub. There are some Dragon Dancers that resist Water you might need to be concerned about if your Sp. Atk isn't boosted, but those sets are very rare and for everything else you're already pretty bulky on the special side and have evasion/defense boosts plus possible Scald burns to make it hard for a physical attacker to take you down as well.

EDIT: and after typing all that the damn game froze on me again, ending my streak at 1190. I'm done on this game for a while; obviously the hardware is more competition than the actual Subway and if I mess around with it again, I'd just use an emulator.

 

[Brucolac]

That is an interesting idea. My first thought to circumvent Fake Out was making Whimsi slower than Abomasnow, and then testing whether that changes the preference of Fake Out. But your idea might be better. Actually, I already considered Cottonee for similar reasons, but for another team. I tried a variation of Peterkos Terrakion Team with which he got 252 wins. Instead of Darmanitan I had Expert-Belt Metagross with Iron Head, EQ, Thunderpunch, Bullet Punch, Latios had Life Orb and Protect, and Whimsicott did have Charm instead of Sunny Day. I made it first try to 138. I faced Dragonite + Gyarados, but QC activates and Superpower kills Terrakion, Beat Up does nothing, Gyarados crits Whimsi with Aqua Tail. I almost fought back, but an Escavalier from the back was hard to beat (well, Peterko knew one needs some Fire for this team). This team was much fun and felt so strong, but 100% KO from QC seemed to weigh too heavy. What I was thinking was, that one can make Whimsi lose so much bulk, that Fire Punch from Dragonite reaches a guaranteed KO, while giving Terrakion a little more bulk, to give it a chance to survive Superpower. I don't know if you can count on Dragonite going consistently for Whimsi, but maybe? Anyways, there I briefly also considered Cottonee, but then found it is way too slow and cannot outspeed Terrakion, which is crucial. But for the Hail-team, this might make the difference. Speed and offense from Whimsi did hardly matter. What may matter though, is that it hardly gets targeted turn one. So maybe even the other way round would be better, making Abomasnow as frail as possible, while playing Whimsi as defensive as possible (like with good IVs. Btw each pokemon had 2 or 3 IVs on 31, not the team in total, in case that was ambiguous). But yeah, as you say, sometimes you want Whimsi to die quickly; but on other occasions you don't. I think only trying really helps.

I agree, Eruption + Whimsi for sure is strong. Jumpman also got a streak of 252 with such a thing. I think in general a strong special spread move + Whimsi with Fake Tears easily can get to 100+ wins. And yes, especially with Blizzard there should be nice synergy, I have not thought about that before. (Also for the Terrakion-Team, I think a 'random' Eruption in the spot of Darmanitan/Metagross may be a thing. But Arcanine with Flareblitz, CC, Extremespeed, Bulldoze/Protect and Sitrus/Muscle Band may be even more charming, and if I give it another shot it will be this one).

Well, in some way or the other the subway always seems to get one with freezes. Maybe instead of doing these superlong streaks you should calculate the probability of you losing? :D And then the expected streak length for the record

 

[Meuhforever]

Aw crap, I just wrapped up a "You like battles, too!" run with Durant/Cloyster/Gliscor but accidentally closed the tab where I was doing a writeup for the team. I'll keep it on the briefer side for now and maybe go back and edit later. Here's a video where I actually got some footage of the elusive Janitor, and there are a few more of this team on that channel.

Durant and Gliscor are the same as before. The Cloyster:
...

Nicely done. I was a big fan of "Yolo" Durant+Cloyster teams for their speed and relative ease of use. I would usually start my streaks with a similar team, but I would usually switch after 200-300 ish battles, as the cost of losing increased. My version lacked the consistency of my "real" teams (for the third slot, I used somewhat wacky stuff), but it seems that a common theme recently has been that adding Gliscor to any team makes it consistent :)

I agree that Rock Blast is a waste of a moveslot for the far superior Substitute. I personally used Icicle Plate instead of Leftovers, which secures OHKOs on 38 additional sets (of 96), and gets a 90%+ range on 6 sets (not counting crit chances). With Gliscor in the picture as a better replacement in the third slot to anything else I can think of (except maybe a well-built Whimsicott?), I wonder about the virtues of these 38 OHKOs against Leftovers. For my purposes (300 quick wins), Leftovers never seemed to make sense against the clean knockouts I didn't need to think about, but I wonder how sand, PP-stalling, and High Jump Kick works on a -3 Cloyster without recovery.

One interesting thing to try on these kind of teams would be Cottonee over Whimsicott. I'm not sure which things Grass Knot is most often targeting, but max Sp. Atk Cottonee hits 97, which is probably at least comparable to what your Whimsicott has with no EV investment and likely not a perfect IV either. Especially if you go for low defensive IVs on Cottonee, you would probably bait Fake Out and even some Trick Room users into just going for the OHKO with a different attack. The lack of bulk not only works for baiting attacks, but there are probably certain situations (like in the loss) where it would be better for the Tailwind setter to faint immediately after using it to give the dedicated attackers more turns.
...

Nice team Brucolac! I have used the Whimsicott line quite a lot in the past, and I echo a lot of the comments made here. The art of Whimsicott is 50% setting up what you need, and 50% getting out before becoming dead weight. Usually, attempts are ensuring this first part will come at the detriment of the second. A prime example of this is Focus Sash, which you've correctly (imo) swapped for a Lum Berry.

You also correctly highlighted that Fake Out is the #1 threat to Whimsicott, and I sincerely believe that it makes Protect mandatory if your team relies at all on its support to function (we can have the discussion on whether or not this reliance is a fundamental weakness in the first place later). Maybe the attacking move, depending on the other lead, doesn't accomplish all that much, it's up to you to find out.

I am firmly against using Cottonee or using any bulk-reducing cheese in this generation, especially if you're not running Sash. The immortal Berry Juice, Sturdy, lv. 1 Aron is one thing, a Cottonee that's weak to sand/hail and is still lv. 50 is something else. In my experience, trying to make things less bulky to attract hits only accomplishes two things: it encourages spread moves (and more importantly their secondary effects...), and makes you weak to priority. Ice Shard is particularly concerning: no matter how much speed investment you put in Cottonee, it's never going to outspeed a Weavile - which might have Fake Out anyway, forcing you to Protect T1, and die the next without accomplishing anything. One way to combat this is to use a Whimsicott to stay near the top of the +1 priority speed tier, but running minimal bulk while still tanking key (non-crit...) priority moves. That's a step in the right direction, but ask yourself if removing bulk on something so crucial to your team is sensible.

EDIT: and after typing all that the damn game froze on me again, ending my streak at 1190. I'm done on this game for a while; obviously the hardware is more competition than the actual Subway and if I mess around with it again, I'd just use an emulator.

I'm so sorry for your losses. It happened to me too; not as far into streaks as you, but I feel the pain. I'm now booting a rom from my 3ds with my original cartridge save file, so I still have that console feel without the uncertainty of the hardware.

My classes are done now, I will have a bit of free time for the next couple weeks, I'll see what I can make happen!

 

[Brucolac]

Thanks! Yeah, that sums up also my experiences with Whimsi. Although with the Hail-team, it is less of dead weight, because Spread + Fake Tears is so strong. There of course are situations where Abomasnow + Rotom get a double KO whereas with Whimsi there is no double KO. But Whimsi being alive is better more often, than for example in my other Team with Ursaring + Whimsi, with which I also have a lot of experience.
And yes, I stick very much to Lum Berry, because without it, it easily leads to games where Whimsi is painful dead weight.

For Fake Out: I am not sure if replacing Grass Knot for Protect would be worth it, but it could be and I thought of it. But from other teams, it often sucked having a Mon which cannot do a tiny bit of damage. Next to Machamp Whimsi does nothing then, and even uninvested, Grass Knots damage was very nice. If I try it again, I think I start with Protect and see how it goes.

What you say about Cottonee feels right. I thought some more about shifting status points. I tend to make Whimsi as bulky as possible and Abomasnow frail enough. Maybe making Whimsi slower also may affect the AI. A spread of 252 HP / 20 Def / 236 SDef on Calm Whimsi for example would have helped in the battle against Charizard + Kangaskhan where FO + Heatwave prevented Tailwind. Only a double max roll would have killed Whimsi with Hail damage. On the other hand, Abomasnow can be made frail enough, so that Kang3 can OHKO it. Abomasnow frail + Sash + Protect + worse typing and Whimsi being max bulky feels like it could work best. And Whimsi being slower than Abomasnow also may be a factor. I don't think I'll try this all, but we'll see.

Curious, what teams did you use? Did you post them here?

 

[GG Unit]

I agree that Rock Blast is a waste of a moveslot for the far superior Substitute. I personally used Icicle Plate instead of Leftovers, which secures OHKOs on 38 additional sets (of 96), and gets a 90%+ range on 6 sets (not counting crit chances). With Gliscor in the picture as a better replacement in the third slot to anything else I can think of (except maybe a well-built Whimsicott?), I wonder about the virtues of these 38 OHKOs against Leftovers. For my purposes (300 quick wins), Leftovers never seemed to make sense against the clean knockouts I didn't need to think about, but I wonder how sand, PP-stalling, and High Jump Kick works on a -3 Cloyster without recovery.

This is not good. The point of Leftovers is that A) basically anything that avoids a OHKO from +6 Icicle Spear besides QC Dewgong is easily stalled out by Gliscor and B) if something cheeses you with an evasion item, you can get more 100% guaranteed wins by stalling out an additional 10 PP worth of attacks rather than just hoping you don't miss twice in a row.

Nice team Brucolac! I have used the Whimsicott line quite a lot in the past, and I echo a lot of the comments made here. The art of Whimsicott is 50% setting up what you need, and 50% getting out before becoming dead weight. Usually, attempts are ensuring this first part will come at the detriment of the second. A prime example of this is Focus Sash, which you've correctly (imo) swapped for a Lum Berry.

Also not good. As I already mentioned, there is a happy medium where something will dissuade Fake Out by being OHKOed by one of a Fake Out user's other moves but not by Fake Out itself (Kangaskhan Double Edge, Weavile Ice Punch, and so on). You can easily say the same for a lot of status move users where baiting a OHKO with a Cottonee as opposed to Whimsicott leaves a lot more breathing room for a spread move attacker to do damage. Sure you could say it was good to have Lum Berry Whimsicott with Abomasnow, but Abomasnow is a pretty poor lead to use with Prankster Fake Tears since it's too slow to really take advantage of Fake Tears, has lots of weaknesses, and those weaknesses are such that a Focus Sash can easily be nullified by relatively common things like a fire move burning or a Rock Slide flinching. Like duh, a Cottonee is worse than level 1 Aron, but it's equally obvious that the doubles record in gen 5 is a lot lower than it is in generations where you can use level 1 Pokemon.

My classes are done now, I will have a bit of free time for the next couple weeks, I'll see what I can make happen!

Seems like you haven't made anything happen yet despite acting as though you were smarter than me.

 

[Level 51]

Seems like you haven't made anything happen yet despite acting as though you were smarter than me.

It is honestly crazy to me that you wrote this stupid and pointlessly aggressive parting shot about someone "acting as though they were smarter than you" right after delivering this ridiculously pompous post. The validity of your points aside, a cheap shot like this is a surefire way to assure that people are going to be less receptive to whatever you do have to say. After your last few posts that actually felt reasonable, informative, and friendly (or at least polite), this was a complete and utter disappointment.

Also, unless I missed something, didn't Meuhforever state that they used that Cloyster set for early streak rushes, rather than for long streak attempts? Is your first paragraph just completely missing the context that the set was used in?

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Reporting a new streak of 93 wins in Super Double mode. (Is this thread still being updated?)

I retooled the Lightningrod team I posted about previously, making a fairly significant team swap, and it's seen a massive improvement in performance. It didn't take me long to get to 49 wins (and Emmet turned out to be a hilariously easy fight) and then push my streak even further; I'm really excited to see how much more this team is capable of.

Team composition

This team originally started out in Gen III as Dodrio/Marowak/Manectric/Gyarados. It worked pretty well there, and in XD's Orre Colosseum - Lightningrod is a pretty dominating mechanic when you play it right. So I sent it up to Gen V to see if it could work in the Subway too.

Results were... mixed. As much as I love it, Dodrio just couldn't compete - its shallow movepool was just about good enough in Gen III, but not quite good enough for Gen V. Foes were stronger offensively and defensively; it was dying to Ice and Rock attacks with greater regularity, and failing to score KOs that in Gen III had been much easier. Also, its abilities are largely useless, and that was a drawback that really couldn't be ignored - in the squad's current incarnation, literally every ability is useful.

So Dodrio was - sorrowfully - dropped in favour of Staraptor, which turned out to be superior in basically every way: stronger, learns far better moves, and has a much better choice of ability. More on that in the next section.

Manectric, though, really wasn't working out. Lightningrod's changed mechanics in Gen V mean that Electric attacks from allies get redirected, and this posed a problem when the two Lightningrod wielders found themselves on the field together. Perhaps having two on one team was slightly overkill.

More broadly, though, Manectric just wasn't accomplishing a lot. It's not powerful enough to decisively finish battles the way the others can, and it's too frail to properly stall out Perish Song turns the way I wanted. Toxic was a useful addition which made taking bulkier foes down simpler, but increasingly it felt like the odd one out. So I started thinking about what could replace it. Seeing as everyone else seemed to be using Hitmontop to great effect, and given my team's difficulty in dealing with Ice-types, I figured why not give it a shot.

The Ballad of Nullified Lightning

Proudwing @ Choice Scarf (Intimidate)
Brave Bird
Close Combat
Double-Edge
U-Turn
252 Attack/Speed, 6 HP (Adamant)

Staraptor makes for a fantastic lead: it can nearly always score a KO on turn one, or at the very least leave things dangling on a thread for someone else to pick off. It tends not to live very long due to the self-harming nature of its most powerful moves, but equally it tends to OHKO things before they can strike back so this isn't too much of a concern. Brave Bird is the most commonly-used move, even against things that nominally resist it - various Ice-types, like Cryogonal and Froslass, are generally OHKO'd by it. Close Combat's defences-lowering effect can actually be useful because it baits opponents into targeting Staraptor, giving Marowak room to act unimpeded.

Reckless would be cool, but overall Intimidate supports the team far better. Making Marowak even bulkier on both ends of the spectrum pretty much guarantees its survival; it makes facing physical Ice, Grass, and Water-types much more tolerable, and gives U-Turn some added utility against problematic foes with strong physical attacks (especially opposing Intimidate users like Salamence) - duck out and switch Gyarados in to nerf them even further.


SongOfSusannah @ Thick Club (Lightningrod)
Earthquake
Icy Wind
Perish Song
Protect
236 HP, 6 Att, 12 Def, 252 SDef, 4 Speed (Careful)

My favourite member of the squad, and the one upon whom everything hangs. She really can do anything! Even though sweeping isn't her primary job, Thick Club makes Earthquake hit ridiculously hard and it routinely achieves multiple KOs on its own. In fact, several battles are ended in two turns just by Staraptor and Marowak.

Hot take I know, but my god, Perish Song is so broken. Such a reliable way to kill things, and the power it gives you over the enemy is unlike anything else. It's most often saved until turn 2 because it's usually possible to kill at least one lead (and on happy occasions both); however, if even one of the leads is something bulky and hard to take down (Blissey, Slowbro, Snorlax, Spiritomb, Shuckle, Porygon2, Hippowdon, Registeel et al), go straight for Perish Song. Even if you kill one lead and inflict Perish Song on the other, all you have to do is kill whatever comes out to replace the fainted lead: the afflicted Pokemon is guaranteed to die since they won't be able to switch it out. Even if you can't kill both of the opposing leads for whatever reason (usually because they're both incredibly bulky), if Perish Song is used they'll still both eventually switch, giving you a free turn to do whatever you like.

All of this is a longer way of saying that - as long as you ensure you aren't trapping yourself - there's very rarely a downside to using Perish Song at any point in a battle. It's especially fun to use when the opponent has two Pokemon left and I have three; victory is all-but assured in that instance. Even so, I'm still minded to play cautiously, and will switch one of my Pokemon out if I can.


Rusho @ Fighting Gem (Technician)
Fake Out
Protect
Bullet Punch
Mach Punch
12 HP, 252 Att, 40 Def, 206 SDef (Adamant)

I experimented with a Hitmontop that had Intimidate; the thought of having three Intimidate users was hilarious, but Technician makes it far more useful. Fake Out's utility is obvious, but quite often it's used simply to pick off a weakened foe, as it deals a surprisingly high amount of damage even to bulkier opponents. I also considered Steel Gem over Fighting, as Bullet Punch often falls short of a KO on Ice-types such as Froslass. Ultimately Fighting is definitely superior, the coverage is just too good. Froslass can usually be KO'd without much difficulty by the rest of the squad, or simply 2HKO'd if I really need Hitmontop to do it.

But sweeping isn't generally Hitmontop's job; it's meant to support the team, and it does that incredibly well. Much like Marowak, the invested bulk allows Hitmontop to often survive attacks with a few HP remaining, making it a reliable bait for foes. Ice teams in general are much less of a problem than they were, and Trick Room is much less problematic when your entire moveset is composed of priority attacks.


Dr Jan Itor @ Lum Berry (Intimidate)
Dragon Dance
Earthquake
Waterfall
Ice Fang
20 HP, 252 Att, 20 Def, 32 SDef, 184 Speed (Adamant)

Gyarados is unchanged from Gen III. Actually, if anything, it's better. So, so good at sweeping - and you can pretty much always fit in one DD. I actually really wish this had room for Bounce (it'd be another way to stall out Perish turns) but Water/Ice/Ground is good enough coverage for most things.

How I lost

Lost due to an unforgivably stupid misclick. Wish there was a better story to tell.

I was up against Socialite Aparna who, frustratingly, had the easiest opening two I could ask for - Virizion and Heatran. Virizion quickly went down to Brave Bird and Heatran survived Earthquake thanks to its Focus Sash, hitting Marowak with Flash Cannon. She sent out Articuno to replace Virizion; I figured it was best to get the easy kill and finished Heatran with Brave Bird - predictably, Articuno used Blizzard, killing Staraptor but failing to hit Marowak, who used Protect. Her final team member was Thundurus.

And here's where I went wrong. I sent out Hitmontop intending to flinch Articuno with Fake Out so I could set up Perish Song, but accidentally hit Bullet Punch instead, doing barely 20% to it. Thundurus poisoned Hitmontop with Toxic, Articuno used Blizzard and got the KO on Marowak: next turn, Mach Punch wasn't enough to KO Articuno and Thundurus dropped Gyarados with Thunderbolt.

In hindsight, Gyarados may have been the better switch, but it's hard to say - Thundurus1 is slower than Articuno3, so if it went for a Thunderbolt it'd have been able to successfully use it as Articuno would have been able to KO Marowak first. Ironically if the AI was smart enough to be aware of Thunderbolt it's likely that Thundurus would have tried to use Toxic on Gyarados instead, allowing me a turn to boost. Still, even if I'd flinched Articuno and Marowak had set off Perish Song, it still likely wouldn't have been enough for me to win.

Still, I'm furious with myself for such an underwhelming loss, and will definitely be trying again for a higher streak.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

After many (many) weeks of attempting to hit my old high of 93 wins and not managing to do so, I've finally hit 105 wins with my Lightningrod/Perish Song team thanks to a crucial improvement I made this week. The streak's still active.

Team details are... literally in the previous post, but also here, if you'd rather not scroll up.

The Ballad of Nullified Lightning

Proudwing @ Choice Scarf (Intimidate)
Brave Bird
Close Combat
Double-Edge
U-Turn
252 Attack/Speed, 6 HP (Adamant)


SongOfSusannah @ Thick Club (Lightningrod)
Earthquake
Icy Wind
Perish Song
Protect
236 HP, 6 Att, 12 Def, 252 SDef, 4 Speed (Careful)


Rusho @ Fighting Gem (Technician)
Fake Out
Protect
Bullet Punch
Mach Punch
12 HP, 252 Att, 40 Def, 206 SDef (Adamant)


Dr Jan Itor @ Lum Berry (Intimidate)
Dragon Dance
Earthquake
Waterfall
Ice Fang
20 HP, 252 Att, 20 Def, 32 SDef, 184 Speed (Adamant)

Team improvements

This team is solid enough, but could not reliably hit more than 60 wins without strain. This frustrated me; I've been slowly getting more familiar with the Subway sets, and repeated streaks have given solid grounding on how to handle certain dangerous species whenever they appear. But this team is offensively brutal enough to cleave through opponent squads; it's defensively synergised to the point that it can outlast stuff that should wreck it, and it has Perish Song for a sure-fire win if needed.

But as good as Perish Song is, it's a dangerous two-edged sword if you use it wrongly. Use it with three Pokemon on your side left, great. Use it while the opponent has three Pokemon left? Honestly, you might as well not bother; you force one switch, but if the species on the field can still destroy you you've only hobbled yourself. And it's a pain to put Gyarados on a timer since it can grab a boost so easily but often has to waste them by switching.

All of this changed, however, when I learned one crucial fact: Bounce lets you avoid being hit by Perish Song.

Yes. Unmentioned by numerous sources and, until now, completely unbeknownst to me, the turn where the user springs up renders them immune to being affected by Perish Song. (Makes no sense, really - is Marowak singing very quietly or something?) But this was too good to be true. I rushed back to Gen III to see if this was the case there, too - no, it's not. The semi-invulnerable turn of Fly, Dig, and Bounce does not exempt you from being hit by Perish Song in Gen III, but somewhere along the line, this was changed. I haven't been able to test this in Gen IV yet so much obliged if anyone can.

Anyway, what this meant for the team was... well, we're absolutely running Bounce on Gyarados. No question.

The only question was which move to replace. Waterfall kind of felt obligatory: STAB, occasional flinch chance, and it's just too powerful even when resisted. Ice Fang is so, so useful for its coverage - but then so is Earthquake. Plus, being able to hit two things at once comes in handy all the time, even when they're not outright weak to it. Ugh, choices.

In the end, I reasoned Ice Fang had to be the one to go. Dragons aren't, in general, a major threat to this team, and double-Intimidate helps to dampen the threat posed by the physical ones (which is most of them). The Lati twins are the most troublesome of the bunch on paper, but doing some calculations helped assuage my nerves: after 1 DD, Bounce is very nearly a KO on 3 out of 4 sets for both of them. (The fourth, a beefy-looking Bold HP/Def set, Gyarados struggles to 2HKO - but only has a weak Dragon Pulse to hit back with in turn, so all else being equal it's not too terrifying).


Dr Jan Itor @ Lum Berry (Intimidate)
Dragon Dance
Earthquake
Waterfall
Bounce
20 HP, 252 Att, 20 Def, 32 SDef, 184 Speed (Adamant)

Even with a boost behind it Bounce is still a shade too weak to reliably KO everything I'd like it to. It falls short of an OHKO on Tauros, Dragonite, Milotic, Hydreigon, and a whole host of other things I can't bring to mind. But that's not what it's ultimately here for. As outlined, its main function is letting Gyarados escape the consequences of its partner using Perish Song.

And things changed dramatically

The effect was practically immediate. Suddenly matches that might otherwise have been risky or hard to clinch found themselves becoming much simpler - as a 2-turn move, Bounce is yet another method in my arsenal that helps run down the clock on the perish timer. All this means that keeping Marowak alive is even more vital than it was before, but since (barring crits) only the strongest Hydro Pumps and Ice Beams can OHKO, Marowak still gets to sing its song eight or nine times out of ten. And Staraptor is very, very good at getting that turn-one kill that tips the odds drastically in my favour.

I'm genuinely burning mad at how much time I wasted. After I made the swap, it took three attempts to get to 105 - the first ending tantalisingly at 95, the second at 78 thanks to a dumb misplay. I know, I know, there's all sorts of aphorisms about time not being wasted if you're learning. I know.

I feel attacked
​

 

[Brucolac]

Cool to see this strat evolve.

I some while ago had a streak of 143, with a Scarf-Staraptor lead. Instead of Double-Edge I had Final Gambit, and I had 180EVs in HP I think - enough to OHKO Garchomp 3. Maybe you could also think about that, it is a powerful escape button and kills *so many* things.
And, for a team which I maybe will try, I thought about a Marowak, but with max speed. I cannot really tell if this would add much to your team, but it might.

I would be very stressed with the inaccurate Bounce. Wide Lens usually is not a fun item to use, but maybe you can try it? Also against Bright Powder etc. How often does the lum make a difference? Paralysis does not occur often I reckon?

Also, against what did you lose? This usually is the best source for improvements.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Cool to see this strat evolve.

I some while ago had a streak of 143, with a Scarf-Staraptor lead. Instead of Double-Edge I had Final Gambit, and I had 180EVs in HP I think - enough to OHKO Garchomp 3. Maybe you could also think about that, it is a powerful escape button and kills *so many* things.
And, for a team which I maybe will try, I thought about a Marowak, but with max speed. I cannot really tell if this would add much to your team, but it might.

Never even thought about Final Gambit!

I'm actually experimenting with Staraptor in Gen IV's Frontier atm and running a lot less speed there since the Subway is a fair bit faster; with a Scarf Adamant Staraptor only needs 172 Speed EVs to reach 213 which outruns everything there. Adamant Scarf Staraptor hits 228 max which still falls short of a few sets. Obviously it doesn't need to outrun absolutely everything but idk if I'd want to divert too many EVs. Could run Jolly but I feel like that'd compromise its offensive power way too much.

I do find myself switching in and out a lot so it'd be a decent way to kill something weakened, although in a lot of cases it can do that just by attacking.

I would be very stressed with the inaccurate Bounce. Wide Lens usually is not a fun item to use, but maybe you can try it? Also against Bright Powder etc. How often does the lum make a difference? Paralysis does not occur often I reckon?

Bounce's accuracy hasn't been too much of an issue. Often this is because it's selected primarily as a way of avoiding Perish Song first and an offensive move second. If you actually want to kill things Waterfall and Earthquake are the way to go. Additionally, Gyarados is also bulky enough for it generally not to the be the end of the world if it misses.

Lum gets a LOT of use, opponents are very often quite keen to inflict Gyarados with status. Paralysis is typically avoided thanks to Marowak but occasionally you get a random Body Slam or Tri Attack thrown your way; random freezes are actually also fairly common as this team gets a lot of Blizzards thrown at it. It's often an effective way to get a DD in as a lot of Spores, Will-o-Wisps etc are relatively predictable. I would never go with Wide Lens over Lum as it's just not worth the item slot.

Also, against what did you lose? This usually is the best source for improvements.

I haven't yet, the streak's still active. Taking a break for a while.

 

[Brucolac]

Staraptor @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 180 HP / 116 Atk / 212 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Final Gambit
- Bravebird
- Close Combat
- U-Turn

that is the set I used. It was meant to outspeed Terrakion and kill Garchomp with FG. Probably with your team these are not so problematic though. But I would try FG if I was you, over Double Edge. Double Edge comes to use almost exclusively against Electrics I imagine, and these are not such a problem on this team anyways. FG can create momentum in many situations. You may think about what gives you many troubles and invest some EVs in HP. Almost all enemy mons that are not HP invested die to FG.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Staraptor @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 180 HP / 116 Atk / 212 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Final Gambit
- Bravebird
- Close Combat
- U-Turn

that is the set I used. It was meant to outspeed Terrakion and kill Garchomp with FG. Probably with your team these are not so problematic though. But I would try FG if I was you, over Double Edge. Double Edge comes to use almost exclusively against Electrics I imagine, and these are not such a problem on this team anyways. FG can create momentum in many situations. You may think about what gives you many troubles and invest some EVs in HP. Almost all enemy mons that are not HP invested die to FG.

Okay so I've noticed one problem with this already: Blissey.

All of the Blissey in the Subway run full Def investment, even when not Bold - Blissey1 is Calm Def/SpD, Blissey 2 is Modest HP/Def, and Blissey3 and 4 are both Bold HP/Def.

Now, even against Blissey1, Close Combat from Adamant max Atk Staraptor won't KO - the max it can do is 98%. But this means Marowak can follow up with Earthquake for a guaranteed KO (or, alternately, that Marowak can weaken Blissey on the first turn and allow Staraptor to quickly grab the kill on the second if it's targeting a different Pokemon like Excadrill or Klinklang or whatever on turn one).

This is not to say that Blissey is a major threat and must be killed ASAP: both Hitmontop and Gyarados can deal with her. But in general when you want to be getting kills as fast as possible, she presents a problem if she's the first mon the foe sends out because she can boost her stats, inflict status, and just generally be a nuisance.

Terrakion is rarely a threat to this team: only one set has Swords Dance so Intimidate usually cripples it, and the Choice Scarf set is very easy to outplay. Marowak's Earthquake is typically a 3HKO but usually it'll be Perish'd or finished off by Gyarados/Hitmontop. I can't remember offhand if Terrakion is used by any other trainers but I'm pretty sure I've only seen it on all-legendary teams, which tend to be relatively easy to play around.

Garchomp is also not particularly threatening - Garchomp1 has no way to hit Staraptor and Gyarados, Garchomp2 is a joke set, and Garchomp3 is a Choice Scarf set so can be outplayed. It's only Garchomp4 that has the potential to cause trouble, but it rarely does since Intimidate forces it to spend time boosting and Icy Wind does a minimum 20% damage which breaks its Focus Sash and leaves it in prime position to be taken out by a partner.

 

[GalaxianGG]

Ok so I know 58 isn't exactly a superstar record compared to a lot of players who have got much better winstreaks, but considering this is my first time posting on here and that I've always wanted to complete the super double train and get a trophy in my player's room i'm pretty happy with this.
Paste: https://pokepast.es/3dbe3d9069c5df9b
Team Notes:
Milotic (F) @ Water Gem
Ability: Marvel Scale
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 172 SpA / 84 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Icy Wind
- Protect
- Toxic
Milotic provides crucial speed control with icy wind and water damage, which mainly hits ground and fire types but does good damage to neutral targets as well and i really want spread with surf so i can hit multiple pokemon at once and surf is fully accurate which removes annoying muddy water misses and i have two bulky dragons who tank surf comfortably. Water Gem allows surf to be a one time spread nuke for super effective hits and also hurts neutral targets well too.
the speed investment hits 112 speed which allows Milotic to outspeed base 100s (Salamence, Zapdos, etc.) after a icy wind drop, hp is maxed for general hit taking, and rest is dumped into Sp. Attack to hit as hard as possible with surf.
I originally ran light screen in the last slot for increased sp. def on my team but after a scare midway through the run with Blissey #4 (the toxic + minimize set) in where my npc opponent used t wave with a partner togekiss to paralyze latias (aka it can't be poisoned by blissey) i decided to switch light screen for toxic on milotic so i won't just autolose to that set if my opponent doesn't get lucky and avoid everything (I did eventually just get lucky and hit a +6 dragon pulse and CB metagross iron head to win the game anyways).

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 172 HP / 172 Def / 132 SpA / 4 SpD / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
- Tailwind
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Dragon Pulse
This Latias functions as both a tailwind supporter and a win con capable of sweeping teams full of special attackers. Leftovers provides passive healing so it can still be an effective win con with calm mind, tailwind is crucial for helping my team get several turns of doubled speed which can help my other stronger pokemon like my milotic and salamence hits things hard. in the late game, latias can also function as a win con with calm mind to boost its sp. attack and sp. def to just bowl over teams, especially if they only have special attackers left. the hp investment hits a leftovers number and also helps with the occasional stealth rock damage. the defense evs with bold nature has a roll heavily in my favor to avoid the 2hko from neutral nature -1 tyranitar crunch, and also helps with physical blows in general. the speed allows Latias to hit 134 speed to outpace base 130s (jolteon and aerodactyl) after an icy wind drop, and the rest of the evs are dumped into sp. attack with 4 evs in sp. def to not waste evs. (latias doesn't really need sp. def investment much since it's sp. def is so high naturally)

Salamence (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 140 Atk / 4 Def / 12 SpD / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Protect
- Fire Fang
- Dragon Claw

This is my favorite Pokemon, so i've gotta use one on here right? Mence is pretty good, both offensively and defensively, and i've tweaked it's evs for my needs. I've switched it into various Fire, Grass, Ground, Fighting and Bug type moves quite frequently (especially physical ones) because of it's typing and intimidate. the life orb it holds boosts its power a good amount so it can still be a legitimate threat despite the low base power of it's offensive attacks. The EV spread on it is weird at first glance but does come in handy a good amount. HP investment hits a good life orb and roost number and allows it to be more comfortable switching into resisted hits, the speed hits 134 speed (see above on latias' ev spread explanation), and its defensive evs makes its sp. def higher than its defense by one point for download P2 and Porygon-Z (Milotic and Latias have much higher Sp. def. stats than defense stats). The rest of its evs are dumped into attack alongside an adamant nature for power.
Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Bullet Punch
- Thunder Punch

This is my main physical wallbreaker of my team. the ev spread is simple but i am open to suggestions for good CB metagross evs, particularly ones that can keep hp maxed for hit taking
Iron head and earthquake are staples (earthquake especially is good due to having two ground immunities that can enjoy metagross earthquaking next to them), bullet punch is useful priority (and also allows metagross to snipe frail or weakened ice / rock types), and Thunder Punch is for waters like gyarados and milotic which could be problematic otherwise)


Note: Eventually I will not be a dumbass playing at 2 in the morning so i can make leaderboards with this squad (and not lose to a misclick) and I'll eventually figure out how to build and play in the singles train so i can get a good streak going there too lol. IIRC I specialize in doubles sosingles is still somewhat foreign to me but i'll figure it out

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Finally returned to my doubles team after a long break to see how much further beyond 105 I could make it.

The discussion about Final Gambit prompted me to give it a try (thanks to Brucolac for suggesting that). I started by looking at the speed tiers of the Pokemon who hit similar numbers to Staraptor and rationalised what it was worth sacrificing to invest in HP. At max speed, Adamant Scarf Staraptor hits 228, but nearly all of the fastest sets in the Subway are physical and also Scarf sets which means they can be nerfed by Intimidate and potentially locked into a move I can find a resistance to. Manectric is the fastest set, but a lead Manectric is rarely a problem thanks to Marowak's presence; the only Pokemon I can't nerf are Entei and Typhlosion, but neither is realistically going to pose a problem when I have 2 Fire resists in the squad. Even if they get the jump with Eruption, Hitmontop's Fake Out and priority moves can make that move much less threatening but Marowak Earthquakes them to death regardless.

Below that sits Pinsir, which is unpleasant due to knowing Guillotine. After a long stretch of thought, I decided that it wasn't worth accounting for one single set. Accelgor is simply not threatening enough to matter - even when it outspeeds Staraptor it's never going to KO. So I could ignore that as well. The very lowest I wanted to go to was tying with Electrode - again, Marowak makes Electrode substantially less threatening, but 3 and 4 can do more than use ineffective Electric moves and I'd rather not give them that opportunity. So 212 became the benchmark speed tier to hit. That meant I could drop Staraptor's speed to 172 Speed EVs, giving me 142 Speed which becomes 213 after the scarf boost.

@ Choice Scarf
Brave Bird
Close Combat
Final Gambit
U-Turn
84 HP/252 Attack/172 Speed (Adamant)

How ironic, then, that the team I subsequently lost to had Pinsir3 as a lead, though it wasn't what caused my defeat.

The loss

I lost at 116 battles to Roughneck Proteus, who specialises in OHKO moves. He led with Wailord and Pinsir - Marowak used Protect, shielding it from Pinsir's Close Combat and Wailord's Blizzard; Staraptor took out Pinsir and fell to Blizzard.

Vanilluxe was sent out in place of Pinsir. I sent out Gyarados and decided to risk a DD. Marowak Protected again in the face of both Vanilluxe and Wailord attacking it, but it failed and got fainted. I sent out Hitmontop and used a Gem-boosted Mach Punch on Vanilluxe, which it narrowly survived; Gyarados used Waterfall on Wailord to try and fish for a flinch - no joy, and it used Hydro Pump on Hitmontop as Vanilluxe set up Hail. Next turn, Hitmontop used Protect as Gyarados used Earthquake for the kill on Vanilluxe.

His last Pokemon was Donphan. No point Protecting; Sturdy prevents Waterfall from KOing, so I need the extra hit with Bullet Punch. If I'd managed to hit it twice, I could have won as Wailord would likely have finished off Hitmontop and Gyara could have revenge killed. But it got a Quick Claw activation, shrugged off Hitmontop's Bullet Punch, and fainted Gyarados with Stone Edge, after which Wailord finished the match with Hydro Pump.

Annoying loss, but I think I'm happy enough with 116 wins overall. Considering this team's initial iteration struggled to make it past 40, I'm pleased to have seen it come this far, and I don't think I'll be trying again in a hurry. And that gets me to 33 on the leaderboard! ...or would be, if it were still being updated. Oh well.

I do think that if I were to try again I'd redo Staraptor's EVs once more. I'm not really convinced by Final Gambit's utility; it'd be more effective in singles for sure but it never really came in clutch here. It runs slightly counter to this team's general Perish Song strategy of stalling out turns (which it's generally able to do pretty effectively) even though Staraptor usually falls pretty quickly early on. But it does provide a useful option against that occasional Regirock that's managed to grab a couple of Curse boosts. Hard to say, really.

 

[Brucolac]

Nice record!
Ok, maybe as you say Final Gambit runs too much against Perish Song. I guess FG fitted better in my team, as there it KOed many key threats, which may not be as problematic in your team.
Do enemies actually switch out before getting KOed by Perish Song?

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Nice record!
Ok, maybe as you say Final Gambit runs too much against Perish Song. I guess FG fitted better in my team, as there it KOed many key threats, which may not be as problematic in your team.
Do enemies actually switch out before getting KOed by Perish Song?

They do, usually always on the last turn available. I tend to only Perish Song if there are two or three Pokemon left - obviously, if there are only two Pokemon left neither can switch out but if the opponent has three, they'll switch one. It appears to be random which one gets switched out but it can potentially give me an opening to set up or make a favourable switch of my own.