With the regi's its almost unpredictable with what they are going to do. Some curse, others use rock polish and then explosion. Sheer offense usually takes them out. So id say the regirock is probably equally a threat because of his stab rock moves.
Scrafty should probably be taken off that list since it isn't legal yet.
Just updating to say I've FINALLY reached 105 wins in doubles. I can't believe it took as long as it did but oh well. I'm just glad that my best doubles team isn't a terribly built rain team anymore! I want to keep playing since I'm on a role but I can't afford to, I have real life stuff to deal with...
@atsync sorry forgot about that I'll change it. And congratz on the doubles streak!
I'm just kind of messing around in singles now, I'm gonna try out my Politoed/Rain Abuse Dragonite/Ferrothron team pretty soon hopefully. Right now I have Dragonite being a bulky special attacker, but I've been considering going for a faster spread, exchanging the bulk for some speed. It'll be interesting to see how Dragonite does, decimating everything with can't-miss STAB Hurricanes and can't-miss Thunder, even though his Sp Attack is a bit low. Has anyone else ever tried Rain Abuse Nite before?
Wrote about this Latios in my previous streak. I'd love to replace Thunderbolt with Thunder but the accuracy drop is too significant.
Metagross @ Choice Band
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Powerful. Clear Body is useful for negating Intimidate. I hardly used Meteor Mash or Hammer Arm at all, the latter having very redundant coverage, but I don't really know what to replace them with, perhaps Thunderpunch/Rock Slide.
How I lost:
I was lucky enough to encounter hardly any hax during the streak, although this battle pretty much made up for it:
VS Roughneck Proteus
Cloyster vs Wailord
Shell Smash, Hyper Beam
Rock Blast KO
Cloyster vs Donphan
Quick Claw activated, Stone Edge KO
Latios vs Donphan
Draco Meteor, Sturdy activated, Stone Edge
Quick Claw, Edge KO
Metagross vs Donphan
Meteor Mash miss, Fissure miss
Quick Claw, EQ crit KO
Other notable battles:
cloy vs slowbro
switch to metagross, trick room
cloy vs bro
psychic, rock blast
switch to lati, psychic
dragon pulse ko
lati vs seismitoad
switch to cloy, fling ko
pulse, poison jab
lati vs slowking
pulse, sitrus, trick room
psyshock to 11 hp, pulse ko
cloyster vs suicune
blast, surf ko
lati vs suicune
lati vs jynx
bullet punch ko
meta vs dewgong
bp, surf ko
lati vs dewgong
quick claw, ice beam to 28 hp, thunderbolt ko
I think this team has a lot of potential, I'll probably use it again a few more times.
Sorry I don't have access to a GOOD camera right now so I can't get a proof pic yet but I will be able to soon hopefully. I've posted the final battle video online anyway, so that should be proof.
But yep this is the Tailwind team I posted before, with some changes.
Tornadus is wonderful. It's good enough that it gets Prankster, but then it gets better when you realise just how powerful Flying Gem Acrobatics is. Obviously it one-shots basically everything weak to it, but then it gets better when you kill fast frail stuff like Espeon before they can do anything! Taunt is handy to stop Trick Room mainly though it also leaves pokemon with 0-1 attacks quite helpless. I was tempted to use Protect over Substitute since it does have advantages (mainly when Tornadus is double targetted) but I love how Substitute can be used over and over. Sometimes Substitute will still be active at the end of the turn which is lovely.
Infernape is a great partner for Tornadus. Fake Out is really useful despite Prankster, since it increases the chances that Tornadus will still be alive at the end of the set-up turn. Also, Acrobatics + Close Combat + Flamethrower is great coverage. Speaking of Flamethrower, it is a bit weak before the Blaze boost unforetunately, but it is far more reliable than Overheat or Heat Wave and Flare Blitz is silly with Focus Sash. I would be interested in trying Iron Fist + Fire Punch if it is ever made legally available to me. Still Flamethrower helps a tiny bit against Intimidate (not much though). I was running U-turn before but I realised that Protect would be better. Infernape often finds itself at 1 hp so it's easy to abuse Protect this way, plus it helps if I need to Earthquake with Swampert.
Hydreigon is fairly standard. It is an excellent Tailwind abuser and the type synergy it has with Infernape is great (and especially helpful against Psychics). Not much to say about it really.
Finally, there's Swampert, probably the oddball of the team. It isn't the kind of thing that you would consider "good" on a subway team. It is more of a glue to this team. Basically, I initially had Feraligatr in the last spot because I wanted a water type and I was just testing it out to see what my team struggled with most. After a while I noticed that electric heavy teams (namely Depot Agents) were giving me a hard time. Tornadus falls to them and Infernape and Hydreigon can't really take repeated attacks from moves that can paralyze at anytime (nor can they finish them off in one hit). I found that Swampert provides everything I need in the last spot. It beats Depot Agents mostly on its own while also providing water coverage. The lack of ice/water resistance is a shame but it isn't a massive problem. Earthquake and Waterfall hit hard enough. Ice Punch is a bit weak but it does kill Dragons which is what it is most useful for. Ev wise Adamant with 252 speed evs gives me enough speed to outpace everything under Tailwind except Scarf Pinsir and the few Scarf things that are faster (Manectric, Entei, etc). It still has good bulk and can often take 2 attacks on the switch-in with plenty of hp to spare.
Trainers that are easy to face would be Bakers and Battle Girls/Black Belts, who I consider easy wins for me. I don't like Legendary teams, water teams or those pesky Hikers that carry really physically bulky things that can take abuse from my leads (Hippowdon especially). Psychics and Trick Room teams are managable as long as I'm careful. I should say that I didn't face any hail workers for ages (if ever) which is fortunate I guess (Infernape can beat most ice types that of course that is meaningless if Snow Cloak kicks in). However, the 2nd last battle I had was against a Janitor who lead with Abomasnow and Glaceon, with Scarf Entei (one of the few things that outspeeds Swampert under Tailwind) as back-up. Glaceon avoided 2 attacks but Hydreigon finally finished it off and the last thing was Ludicolo so it was ok.
Some battle videos:
61-84306-50513 (legendary battle with some evasion stuffs – not sure if it’s from the same run but lol at how badly I play here towards the end) 56-38280-78661 (Zapdos 2 being an annoying piece of crap) 38-43201-10225 (Cresselia surprises me with Trick Room turn 2 when I was expecting Psychic on Infernape) 91-83735-23031 (my losing battle)
How I lost:
I made 2 horrific misplays. I was watching tv at the same time. Yep, that's the excuse I'm going with lol.
Battle 212 vs. Psychic Longo
Longo sends out Alakazam and Spiritomb, go Tornadus and Spiritomb
I Fake Out Alakazam and Taunt Spiritomb, Alakazam Tricks Choice Specs onto Tornadus, Spiritomb can't use Will-o-Wisp
Infernape Protects, Spiritomb Sucker Punches Tornadus (98 hp), Alakazam's Psychic hits Protects, Tornadus Acrobatics's Alakazam (a tiny sliver of hp left)
Infernape switched out for Hydreigon, Spiritomb Sucker Punch's Tornadus (crit, dead), Alakazam's Psychic has no effect, Spiritomb's taunt wears off
Alakazam Focus Blast's Hydreigon (dead), Swampert Earthquake's (Alakazam dead, Spiritomb at around 60% hp), Spiritomb Substitutes,
Longo sends out Medicham, Go Infernape
Infernape Fake Out's Medicham, Medicham flinches, Swampert Waterfall's Medicham (hp in the red), Spiritomb Pain Split's Swampert (108 hp)
Swampert Protects, Gengar Sludge Bombs Infernape (48 hp), Infernape Flamethrower's Gengar (hp in the red), Spiritomb Substitutes
Spiritomb Sucker Punch's Swampert (12 hp), Gengar Thunderbolts Infernape (dead), Swampert Waterfall's Gengar (dead), Swampert dies to burn
So yeah I have no bloody idea why I tried to Fake Out Alakazam. I realised a fraction of a second after clicking Fake Out that it can have Inner Focus, which this one did. What was worse was when I let Hydreigon get Focus Blasted to hell. Seriously, what? I guess I forgot that Tailwind wasn't active. I really wish they would make it so the game tells you if things like Tailwind and Trick Room are active, much like weather, because it is easy to forget if you aren't attentive enough. Either way, I lost my best answer to Psychics for no reason and it cost me.
Still, Spiritomb can go to hell for that rather decisive Sucker Punch crit, I would have probably fought back more easily if Tornadus was alive (I wouldn't have lost Hydreigon then because Alakazam would have died to the second Acrobatics, plus Acrobatics KOs Medicham ugh). Then Spiritomb continued to have its way with me with Substitute, Pain Split and Will-o-Wisp. Oh, and why did Gengar target Infernape with Sludge Bomb instead of killing Swampert with Shadow Ball like it's supposed to? It didn't even poison or crit! I guess Shadow Ball wasn't strong enough to kill after all? Based on how little Sludge Bomb did to to frail Infernape I guess it wasn't. Either way if Infernape was still alive after Gengar was dead then I still had a chance against Spiritomb if I managed to stall Sucker Punch out (Infernape is immune to Will-o-Wisp).
The worst thing is that I needed just a handful more wins to reach the top 10 and I blew it with shitty plays. That sucks.
Guess I can't do anything about it now. 211 though... that was more than I could even hope for. I find it odd that my doubles streak is better than my singles streak since I find singles easier. Not that I'm complaining. I finally got a Starf Berry lol.
Good job atsync! And nice team! Swampert wasn't too surprising. It's a great pokemon pairing with flying types, being immune to electric and neutral to ice and having fairly good attack (unlike other ground types that do the ground + flying combo). What surprised me a bit was the muscle band. I would have thought to use Expert Belt or Ground Gem probably ... or Lum Berry since it's leading, but probably not because my experience with Swampert is that it attacks hard but sometimes just a bit not hard enough (so an attack boosting item is good). Muscle band is a safe option I guess.
Did you find it necessary for Hydreigon to be timid with max speed? I know, it does outspeed a number of things you otherwise wouldn't if tailwind is not up, but do you find that most of the time you have it up when you intend on having Hydreigon come in to KO things after one (or both) of your leads faints, so you can just have modest instead?
Hope you try this team again and go for top 10! :)
nice team I've been looking forward to reading about your tailwind team. I'm going to piggyback off of Chinese Dood here for a second. I have used tornadus and hydregion in my own team with some modifications. I use a modest tornadus with no speed investment so when I use tailwind I am faster than any b sub pokemon without prankster. (Whimsicott also has this distinction). I do the same with hydregion, He is modest with enough speed to hit 130 speed. This allows me once again to outspeed everything in tailwind.
I also get to dump all other ev's into HP and SPA for both pokemon which is quite nice.
So my question is, do you always lead with tailwind or do you kill espeons sometimes? And what does subsitute do for you?
@ CD: Yes I don't like Muscle band that much since 10% is kinda small but I wanted something that boosted all of my moves consistently and allowed me to not lock myself into one move that isn't called "Life Orb". That's why I stayed away from the gems and plates. I don't think Ground Gem would work out well because I use Waterfall just as much as Earthquake, if not more, and it needs a boost of some kind. However, I'll admit I didn't even consider Expert Belt. That would definitely give Ice Punch a nice kick in particular and its coverage is good enough to use it well. Then again, Swampert isn't always getting a super effective hit. Maybe I'll experiment and see what works...
@ Cradily: I don't always lead with Tailwind. It really depend on the leads. That's what's cool about Tornadus: Prankster means you don't really need to because it can set it up whenever it likes most of the time. That's also another benefit of Protect on Infernape, because I can Protect while I set it up instead of being at risk of dying. However, there are some trainers where I do try to set up Tailwind regardless of the leads, namely Legendary teams. They become MUCH easier to beat with Tailwind and the only time I wouldn't set it up is if the opponent lead with Virizion.
Substitute is used much like Protect (because of Prankster). You use it if you predict an attack is coming to hit you, which I often did against Thunder and Blizzard. Substitute has the advantage of being consistently usable on consecutive turns, and if you are lucky then it will still be up at the end of the turn so it provides prolonged protection. However, it has the downside of being unusable at less than 1/4 hp, and if Tornadus is double targetted then it may end up taking damage anyway. I might try Protect out maybe?
@ both of you: Hydreigon is Timid because it was the only one I had on me at the time (I'm so lazy lol). But to be perfectly honest I never found that Timid was "too weak". It still killed everything it needed to and dealt plenty of damage. The same can't be said for Swampert though, even with Adamant it's attack is only 1 point higher then Hydreigon's special attack, which is why Adamant is kinda important. I guess Tailwind was up often enough to justify it, but it certainly isn't always up, and I'm not sure I can be bothered breeding a new Modest Dark Pulse Hydreigon (I think my Hydreigon is female which would mean having to play through 4th gen to get the Dark Pulse TM to teach to a male parent, and then I would have to breed and level the offspring to lv. 64). I might try it out if I ever find time though, being able to invest in bulk is pretty cool too.
EDIT: Derp I just realised that Hydreigon is male after all. I guess it wouldn't be too hard to get a new Hydreigon, but nah I'll stick with Timid for now.
As for Tornadus, base 111 speed is just too good to not take full advantage of. As I said, being able to KO things like Espeon, Gengar (without sash), Froslass (without sash) and Virizion before they move is incredibly helpful.
Thanks, I understand what your saying, I might try that out if I ever get a new Tornadus. I like your strategy, it is much more offensive. And Hydregions suck to breed and level, I know what you mean, I've got at least 2 of them bred with dark pulse. Timid works and that's what counts.
The team is blatantly stolen from this fine fellow, if only because I already had the Pokemon in my boxes. The main (and only) difference is that I use Yachechomp for scouting specific sets, and I haven't gotten enough PP Ups to max out each and every move. I've thrown a steak or two because of reordering moves and Pokemon; I've tried to Rest but selected Substitute or I sent out Rosa instead of Purina on a Fire Blast. I'll have to try out Super Doubles since I already have a small streak going there already.
The main issue I have with skill swap pure power is... you can accomplish the same thing but better by just using swords dance (on something else not dusknoir). It would be better to even role play pure power than skill swap pure power, and even then swords dance is still better.
EDIT: By "better", I think I actually meant "more reliable", as in the attack boost is independent of partner, but not necessarily strictly better, since role play has uses outside of doubling attack too, just that usually role playing pure power is likely the best option, which is less reliable than just swords dancing (and the fact that swords dance can be used more than once too - not that that's going to happen in doubles, of course).
Tauros comes to mind for role play pure power. Fast speed, has good enough attack to function outside of pure power, can learn role play via Gen IV, and has intimidate to soften up attacks on the first turn that it is using role play. Most importantly, it can't learn swords dance lol. Alternatively, Tauros can also role play a Follow Me Serene Grace Togekiss and have rockslide flinching awesomeness. I wanted to try that some time ago just for fun but never got around to it... but yeah that's getting off tracked from the skill swap pure power idea...
As the chemical formula for nitroglycerin, C3H5N3O9 accurately describes Darmanitan's role: blow stuff up. Flare Blitz 1HKOs almost everything that doesn't resist. Even better, half of those that do resist are water types and set-up bait for Suicune, while a large amount also use rock attacks, letting me get Garchomp in easily. U-Turn is used against water-types to let Suicune set up and against Sturdy users to let Garchomp make the kill. The goal with Darmanitan is to set up a 2-on-1 in my favor. Usually, Suicune and Garchomp are different enough so that the same Pokemon can't beat both of them.
Traditional Subway Suicune, except I'm running Ice Beam over Substitute since I'm a little weak to dragons (that, and I'm too impatient to PP stall 4 attacks Vaporeon). Due to lack of Sub, I have to be a little paranoid about healing, so I usually rest at about half health. By then, I've gotten usually two boosts in, and will easily be able to set up. +6/+6 Suicune beats EVERYTHING, especially with the defensive bulk I added. Struggles somewhat with physical attackers if it doesn't hit the burn, but even then it can weaken the foe enough for Garchomp to finish things up.
Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
IVs: 30/29/4/20/31/31 (EVs: 4 HP, 252 Att & Spe)
Lvl 50: 183/199/102/85/105/154
Garchomp is there to continue offensive momentum is Darmanitan should fall. Earthquake destroys Sturdy users. Thanks to its bulk, Garchomp can usually sneak in a Swords Dance (even on most Ice Beams thanks to Yache Berry), at which point Outrage sweeps. Fire Fang is mainly for Skarmory, since I used Stone Edge in that slot at first, but hated missing, and not doing very much damage anyway.
I had a lot of hax in the streak (a crucial burn against a curse Umbreon forced the AI to use Rest, and let Suicune rest so it could wake up after the second-to-last Payback in order to Rest again and absorb the last one), so karma decreed hax would end my streak.
Lost to Roughneck Ganymed
Rapidash vs Darmanitan
Turn 1: Darmanitan uses Rock Slide, Focus Sash activates. Rapidash uses Flare Blitz, does some damage and dies. Ganymed sends out Donphan.
Turn 2: I use Rock Slide again, since I don't want to be randomly hax'd out by an errant Fissure. It does ~25%, and Darmanitan gets KO'd by Stone Edge. I send in Suicune.
Turn 3: Suicune Scalds, Donphan into the red. Donphan uses Seed Bomb, does ~ 1/3 (dat bulk).
Turn 4: Scald KO's, Ganymed sends in Cryogonal.
Turn 5: I try to Scald. Cryogonal outspeeds and Sheer Colds for the kill. I send in Chomp. I know Cryogonal outspeeds chomp, but Yache means it has a good chance of surviving a Blizzard and 1HKO-ing with Outrage, so I still feel confident.
Turn 6: Blizzard crits.
Overall, I loved this team, but not sure where to go next. Garchomp probably should be Jolly, and Darmanitan should definitely be Adamant, but I haven't quite got RNG-ing down yet.
Simic, nice job on taking the 2nd longest Darmanitan streak from me before the leaderboard even gets updated lol. I really like using Darmanitan now. I'm working on a new streak with my same team, but may try different team members for this great fire lead afterwards.
Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
IVs: 30/29/4/20/31/31 (EVs: 4 HP, 252 Att & Spe)
Lvl 50: 183/199/102/85/105/154
-Fire Fang -Earthquake
Garchomp is there to continue offensive momentum is Darmanitan should fall. Earthquake destroys Sturdy users. Thanks to its bulk, Garchomp can usually sneak in a Swords Dance
I've used a very similar team for a long time, but I had a modest hydreigon in the back, flare blitz over flamethrower on ape and protect over substitute on tornadus. I changed the 4th pokemon so many time, i've had latios (a bit redundant with hydreigon), metagross and even raikou.
just to comment your last battle, when I face that alakazam I always taunt because he always tries to trick the specs on tornadus instead of hitting ape with psychic, so the next turn he's completely useless. well, very good streak anyway :)
just to comment your last battle, when I face that alakazam I always taunt because he always tries to trick the specs on tornadus instead of hitting ape with psychic, so the next turn he's completely useless. well, very good streak anyway :)
I did know he was going to Trick (I have seen it a few times against this team and all my other teams), and I probably would have Taunted it if it had a more offensive partner, but I decided to Taunt Spiritomb instead because I thought that would cripple it more (which it did; Taunting Spiritomb is not actually a bad play). Of course, I didn't want to receive Specs so I used Fake Out on Alakazam, overlooking the fact that it can have Inner Focus.
I should say that I had no idea who it was going to Trick to though, it has Tricked to Infernape before, though if I did then the best move selection would have been Substitute to block Trick and Spiritomb's Will-O-Wisp. At the same time I should have switched Infernape out to Hydreigon. Then simply use Acrobatics on Alakazam to kill (even if it switched, both of the back-ups would have died) and just leave Spiritomb alone until the others were dead since Spiritomb is easy to take out when it is the only one left.
Alright, it's been about a week since I decided to look into full-on crippling, and it's been enlightening, which was the point since I'm not going for records here. Using Whimsicott/Uxie/Dragonite, I've been able to obtain knowledge to answer some of the questions I asked about this kind of strategy, and assess the power of the team currently peaking the list. From what I've seen, I suppose that I strongly overestimated it, but why wouldn't I? If a set strategy can pull 630 wins in a row it has to be a very solid one, right? Using the team, I've found a lot of weaknesses that can effectively spoil the entire outfit, especially with the aid of a critical hit or other secondary effects. As such, I wouldn't be as comfortable using this team in the 300+s as I am with my 579 Scizor/Milotic/Dragonite team. The information below is gathered from a week of playing less than an hour a day, so if you see something false I'd really like it if you could inform me, because I feel like I must be 'misunderstanding' the team somehow when looking at how far Jumpman16 has taken it (or at least something very similar to it).
I guess the most straightforward aspect to assess is the power of a full health Dragonite at +6 Atk, +6 Spe, hiding behind a Substitute, since that scenario is what a flawless crippling session leads to. Power is here referring to Dragonite's ability to reliably knock out the 2 non-crippled remaining pkmn. I've found that it's much stronger than my previous Inner Focus version, and also more reliable than a slow sweeper such as Curse Ferrothorn, but is far from invincible. Dragonite loses its Substitute to anything that gets to move and is able to do 48 damage through Multiscale. Anything with priority gets to move, and so does any pkmn that isn't knocked out by +6 Atk Dragon Claw, whether due to Sturdy, Focus Sash, or simply HP/Def and typing. Evasion granted by anything from BrightPowder to Snow Cloak can also give the opportunity to move. Considering the many Subway pkmn meeting these 'requirements' one way or another, Dragonite is far from guaranteed to keep its Substitute for the next foe, even when taking into account the possibility of stalling PP. While having no Substitute endangers Dragonite, it can also be severely crippled when still behind one, thanks to Abilities like Flame Body, Static, and Effect Spore. While most of these threats need excessive luck (barring perhaps Gigalith 1 and 2) to take down Dragonite alone, they have a fair chance of doing so with the help from a third pkmn. So, even if one manages to get Dragonite perfectly set up in every single battle, there are still so many things that can go wrong, and as such I'm very surprised that Jumpman16 has reached 630 with that strategy, which has nothing to fall back on. I must be missing something.
The crippling phase is also far from guaranteed to succeed. After using the team, I still don't understand why people would want to put their money on crippling strategies for records when U-turn, Volt Switch, and Prankster Taunt exist, although I didn't encounter the latter in the lead position. Recoilers also threaten this strategy, knocking themselves out almost before Dragonite has started dancing. Explosion is in the same vein, think Forretress 4. Since the team often depends on locking the foe into a move by Tricking a Choice Scarf, that item has to be held and as such has to be Tricked as to not lock one self in. Tricking something into a non-damaging move usually causes switching (what about the un-Tauntable Counter/Mirror Coat, will they switch?), which is deadly, so Whimsicott practically has to Taunt right before using Memento against a foe packing more than just attacking moves. This limits its diversity and ability to make use of Worry Seed. Another problem is Tricking into moves with 5-10 PP, as getting the foe to use Struggle is a nightmare for setting up, much worse than 'natural' recoil. The same goes for pkmn already locked into one move, like Latias 3 or Rampardos 3, which in turn makes it difficult for Uxie since it will stay locked. Klutz would be really useful here.
Then there are Ground-types, which can't be slowed down unless one runs Cotton Spore on Whimsicott, which seems reasonable as Charm feels more like a luxury than a necessity when used (if someone disagrees or has examples against this, I'd like to know). That's another thing I don't really get; while Jumpman16's team has 2 users of Charm, its only way of lowering SAtk is Whimsicott's single-use Memento - this also makes Mesprit harder to get out of the way when it's done its job. Why Mesprit over Uxie, and why the physical bias? If the Ground-type is faster than Dragonite (without Tricked Choice Scarf), it can easily cause trouble. Think Excadrill flinching, critically hitting, running out of PP. Something I'm generally curious about is whether this thread's users of crippling strategies decide to keep their cripplers if possible, or let them go down intentionally. Skarmory's Whirlwind wouldn't be pleasant. Whimsicott and Uxie both have Memento, which saves me the trouble of letting them go down (Taunt duration and PP loss) and grants a free switch for Dragonite in addition, but that's different for other strategies posted here - do you keep your cripplers, or is the sweeper 'always' on its own? Also, Tricking and Thunder Waving takes 2 turns, which means that many pkmn (more with critical hit) can knock out Uxie in the process, often before paralyzing, leaving Dragonite with a -2 Atk, -2 SAtk, Choice Scarfed foe - not that crippled, can easily status, flinch, critically hit Dragonite. Many strong Ice-types also threaten the outfit, especially considering freeze, which thwarts the plans of this team just as much as any other (Scald-less) team, except more since it runs a set strategy, and only has one self-sufficient pkmn to fall back on; four times Ice-type weak Dragonite. Staying on Ice-types, what can this team really do to prepare Dragonite for Weavile 4? Even with -2 Atk and Choice Scarf on, it does threaten Dragonite with its Speed and high critical hit ratio Night Slash. Some pkmn are a threat even after a flawless crippling, such as Vanilluxe 2, or any pkmn running out of PP; Struggle is a major pain. In the event that full crippling isn't possible (like with Weavile 4), (repeated) critical hits can prevent Dragonite from setting up any day.
Other than that, I find the team to be not all that slow - the sweeping making up for the crippling. I don't think the sets of 7 take much longer than with my Scizor/Milotic/Dragonite on average, but then again, that team is kind of slow. Compared to Curse/Substitute Ferrothorn, this team has very fast playing speed, at least. I think it's less rewarding than my standard teams, though, which I talked about in my initial post on why I chose standard. And as I mentioned in my second post, the team is rude, preying on the AIs imperfections while taking the kid with GameShark aspect to a new level, by not only using Multiscale Dragonite, but also two pkmn not found in the Super Subway roster at all. Considering the risks above, I wouldn't want to use a team like this for making records, since I'd feel way worse when losing a long streak with this outfit than a standard one, since these (on the right days) make for fun/enjoyable battles. Worse because 'waste' of time, no fun had. So, now I've tried to use and assess a strategy I didn't devise myself, and that was interesting. I haven't been playing too much Subway since my record streak, as I'm not looking for an increase, and setting records is essentially what the Subway is all about. I'll maybe find something amusing to do, like trying old or new strategies and pkmn (Subway stall lives). The activity of devising strategies, pkmn sets, and succesfully using them (not necessarily talking records) is in itself the most enjoyable aspect of this facility, I think. That's also why it's great I've started reading into this thread a bit; it's nice when you see people using/have used stuff identical (or almost identical) to something you've used, because that means they (or the one they got it from, if any) have been through the same process as you, which is obviously cool in a unity sort of way. Still I'm not sure if I should correct people when they write stuff that is plain wrong, because they may be speaking in abstract terms, or may even be joking/emphasizing for effect. I guess it's best not to, and let them find out for themselves eventually, if they truly believe what they write. It may be due to lack of experience on the poster's part, but reading posts in this thread generally, I sometimes get the feeling that people on here don't play every turn like it's a minimum damage roll for them, and a maximum damage roll critical hit for the opponent, because surely that's what one would do after just a few hundred hours of Subway battling, right? Maybe the Subway would be a better measure of team strength if it used a scoring system of win/loss ratio that can't be abused by resetting. Timing of the (currently) decisive defeat would be of less importance. More strategies would be viable, especially those with that one fatal weakness, or even something general such as moves with accuracy below 100%. It would also cause less frustration/sadness, ultimately making the Subway more popular by removing its reputation as a sinister place where everything is against you (false perception derived from emotion). Speaking of ideas, it's beyond me that none of the online pkmn battling simulators I know of have some sort of facility tier, like Challenge Cup but with Frontier and/or Subway roster pkmn instead, trainer-bound or not.
Not going to address the TrickScarf (or the like) approach as I really don't have much experience with it. I would imagine the situation, lead and trainer dictates if you sac both support mons during the set up or not, though. Hopefully Jumpman has some time to write a wall of words as those are fun to read (much like your hidden posts).
That's also why it's great I've started reading into this thread a bit; it's nice when you see people using/have used stuff identical (or almost identical) to something you've used, because that means they (or the one they got it from, if any) have been through the same process as you, which is obviously cool in a unity sort of way. Still I'm not sure if I should correct people when they write stuff that is plain wrong, because they may be speaking in abstract terms, or may even be joking/emphasizing for effect. I guess it's best not to, and let them find out for themselves eventually, if they truly believe what they write. It may be due to lack of experience on the poster's part, but reading posts in this thread generally, I sometimes get the feeling that people on here don't play every turn like it's a minimum damage roll for them, and a maximum damage roll critical hit for the opponent, because surely that's what one would do after just a few hundred hours of Subway battling, right? Maybe the Subway would be a better measure of team strength if it used a scoring system of win/loss ratio that can't be abused by resetting. Timing of the (currently) decisive defeat would be of less importance. More strategies would be viable, especially those with that one fatal weakness, or even something general such as moves with accuracy below 100%. It would also cause less frustration/sadness, ultimately making the Subway more popular by removing its reputation as a sinister place where everything is against you (false perception derived from emotion).
Yeah, it is cool sometimes to see people using something similar to what you've been using. In our instance, it was enjoyable to hash out the nuances in each other's approach because our pokemon and type core are so close to identical. Sometimes, though, it's also kind of deflating because you want to be the one with the unique idea... the one that made it far with something different... only to see someone else not only beat you to it, but also that they perfected it and performed better because of their improvements. I remember feeling that way when R Inanimate posted his monster of a doubles streak with a rain team better than my own. I wasn't jealous or anything but just.. amazed.. like "wow, no way I'll beat that and that's a great way of doing it, better give up on this idea because that's the way to do it" type way.
I think if you have a comment or disagree with what someone else is saying or doing here, though, that you should say something! This thread is a great log of individual accomplishments but it's also an excellent venue to discuss experiences and help each other improve. We all do this for the fun of it, the chase of the stunning streak when the Subway is, over time, so clearly stacked against you, so why not offer advice that, ultimately, will improve someone's enjoyment. The banter back and forth is just another form of theorymon... it's way more enjoyable when you have someone besides yourself to bounce ideas off of.
In the Subway, I would assume that most people do assume the worst will happen at all times. However, sometimes you have to chalk it up to a "bad bounce" when it occurs and take solace in the fact that it probably won't always go down that way. Example: restarted my streak, I was back into the 200s and ran into that Ice Punch Electivire (last poke) at an inconvenient moment. Suciune was weakened and without its Sub so it goes down. Full health Dragonite comes in and Electivire scored the needed CH to cost me the game. It was inevitable that exact chain of events was going to happen at some point. Best thing to do is accept it and start over. If you could really win them all, we probably wouldn't be as in love with this part of the game.
Wish I had been keeping track of my overall W/L record (all teams included) just to see. It would be a nice, and very easy, implementation to the Subway in game records, IMO.
Obviously, the main attraction of this team is Blaziken. I decided to try Blaziken after seeing Peterko's Cloyster streak and Carl's streak with his Lum-DD-Multiscale Dragonite, which inspired me to try to find my own "one and done" sweeper (who sets up in 1 turn and proceeds to sweep the opponent). Blaziken is really cool in that in one turn, he goes from mediocre power and speed with unreliable-accuracy moves to solid power, fast speed, and above 100% accuracy moves. After settig up and KO'ing the opponents lead, Blaziken becomes somewhat of a runaway train with 2 Speed boosts and counting. Sometimes I think an Adamant nature could be better, but when I lost, it really wouldnt have helped.
One problem I found with Blaziken is that it pretty much needs to set up in order to preform greatly, whereas Dragonite can still dominate without a DD.
I think Blaziken could do better on a different team, I really just slapped it together quickly to see if Blaziken was any good, but I loved its synergy with Latios. Thunder Wave users could be problematic, since Blaziken absolutely cannot be paralyzed, so I had to usually go to Scizor to take the TWave xD.
How I lost is actually quite embarassing, and it shows one of the biggest holes in my team.
Turn 1: Blaziken vs Yanmega. Yanmega used Air Slash, Sash activates, Blaziken Flinches. (I tried to use Hone Claws, but I should have Stone Edged straight off). Both Blaziken and Yanmega speed boost. Blaziken is now useless against Yanmega.
Turn 2: While muttering numerous profanities, I switch to Scizor who takes a Bug Buzz like a champ.
Turn 3+4: I desperately try to Bullet Punch both turns, 2 Air Slashes barely take down Scizor, Yanmega barely holds on. (serious rage here)
Turn 5: Last hope, I bring in Latios who clings on to life after a Bug Buzz to KO Yanmega, but Life Orb finishes Latios.
Turn 6: Blaziken with 1 HP. Praying that maybe, just maybe, they'll throw in someone slower than Blaziken and frail. No such luck, Gliscor comes in, Blaze Kick does about 40%, kills me with Counter (I should have used Hone Claws there.)
So anyway I had some fun using Blaziken. I can take a pic if anyone really wants to see it, but i dont feel like going out of my way to get it atm :P I also have a video of that demonstrates Blazikens power, getting a clean one-and-done sweep on a legendary team, that I'll try to put up if i get a chance.