Blissey (EV Spread Discussion)

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cim

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/blissey

At the current time, the Blissey analysis advocates that players use a 252 HP / 252 Def Bold spread on their Blisseys, rather than the 252 Def / 216 SpD spread of a few years back. As I've never understood the discussion to be black and white, I looked to the analysis for information. This is all that is provided.

While a Bold nature is recommended on Blissey, a Calm nature with 24 HP / 252 Def / 232 SpD EVs is still viable due to the larger overall defenses gained from Blissey's massive HP. The 24 HP EVs are to achieve a Leftovers number. This spread does cause Blissey to be 2HKOed by attacks such as Swampert's Earthquake and Choice Scarf Tyranitar's Stone Edge, but allows Blissey to avoid being 2HKOed by the likes of Choice Specs Lucario's Aura Sphere or a Flash Fire boosted Fire Blast from Choice Specs Heatran.
I do not believe this is nearly enough information for a battler to make an informed, concrete decision on an EV spread. Personally, I've often leaned toward Special Defense investment in my Blisseys, but there are undoubtedly far more good reasons than "Blissey needs all the Defense she can get!" and "Scarftar can 2HKO with Stone Miss!"

So basically, I want to discuss the pros and cons of both Blissey's Calm and Bold spreads, with specific damage calculations being provided to prove the "necessity" of one or the other in situations that matter for Blissey. Using the discussion, I would like to write a detailed subsection on the EV issue in general, rather than just listing Bold everywhere and listing some token physical attacks that do more to it when it's Calm than otherwise.

(As an aside: Adding 252 HP EVs only adds about ~5% over 0 HP EVs to Blissey's physical bulk. Perhaps even a 0 / 252 / 252 Bold Spread is worth discussing?

----

To start off pros for Calm:
  • Bold and 252 HP EVs versus Calm and 0 HP EVs only makes Blissey take physical hits ~15% better
  • Calm and 216 versus Bold and 0 allows Blissey to take special hits ~20% better
  • Because of the dramatic difference, Calm would be preferred unless Bold gave Blissey specific survivability, since Calm is a lot better at what Blissey intends to do. This is not a cut and dry thing though; with Pursuit, defensive attackers, and other pests, there may be non trivial damage increases that matter in battle. That's where you come in!
 

shrang

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I think Blissey has good enough physical Defense with Calm as it is. I mean, she's still only getting 3HKO'd by Flygon's EQ anyway. I might be playing Ubers too much, but I still think 4 HP/252 Def/252 SpD Calm is still the best way to go on Blissey.
 
I have to agree, 4 HP/252 Def/252 SpD looks like it is the the optimal spread, However, on the more offensive Blissey you could shift some of the Evs to Sp. Atk, so that she could 2ko or OHKO specific pokemon. I have run a offensive blissey set before with 252 Sp. Atk, and a Life Orb, and it worked quite well. However, the best EV spread that I have ever used over the years was 4 HP/252 Def/252 SpD. I almost think that it doesn't need that many EVs in SP. Def, because it is already the bulkiest special wall in the whole entire game.
 
4 / 252 / 252 Bold is definitely the best IMO. Although Calm technically nets you more overall defensive points, Blissey seriously needs every Defense point it can get. Each point in Defense makes a huge difference considering how low its base is compared to her HP and SpD.

Actually, the spread should be max Def, HP EVs up to a Lefties number, and the rest in SpD (with SpA EVs for special sets, obviously). That's my two cents.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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I've always agreed with this. Bold is fairly huge, but the HP is nearly irrelevant- less than a 10% boost with maximum investment.

4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Bold all the way. (Obviously if EVs are needed for specific KOs from special attacks, these EVs will come out of SpD.
 

cim

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So if we opt to change the spread, can we provide the specific calcs that push Bold over the edge for Calm, so the discussion can be more in depth than what we have now?
 
I am not keen on an optimal leftovers point as it also means Blissey takes max damage from Sandstorm and the lesser used Hail. When you think that Blissey will be seen a ton on stall teams with a Hippo / TTar I do not see it as a good idea, especially when you think about how common Tyranitar is too.

I definitely prefer a 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpDef set compared to the Max HP versions, although Bold has the ability to outstall MixPert and take on ScarfTar and Scarfon ok-ish.
 

firecape

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I have always prefered the 4/252/252 Bold over the set with 252 HP evs, because although Blissey can initially switch into any special attacks, its really not what she can initially switch in, but how much she can take in the long run. Thats where that small percentage off special defence could really hurt. However, on the physical side Blissey almost always has teammates to pick up the slack. It is not uncommon to see a stall team with only Blissey for Special Sponging, and maybe a specially defensive Foretress or the like with the rest physically bulky Pokemon. However there is a line and Blissey does need Bold for the Random pursuits and the like, but I think 252 HP Evs is too far.
 
On Blissey, I prefer 252 def, 252 sdef, and 4 hp bold. I also give it a chople berry to survive any physical fighting attack, even a focus punch from a breloom. I know this is not really important to survive a breloom, but it does help and give you a little bit of advantage against fighting attacks. I prefer this over max defense because you still get the edge over fighting attacks, and are still able to survive against other physical sweepers such as T-tar and salamence salamence and can out stall most special attackers.

EDIT: since I dont want to post at the end of the page to disrupt I will say it here. Conerning what firecape01 said about my blissy, it works for my team. I didnt say I keep it in when breloom is up I said it can survive it if need be. Most of what happens in game is situational and I believe that you need to be ready for anything. For me chople berry on blissy helps me and my team a lot so I am sticking with it.
 

firecape

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On Blissey, I prefer 252 def, 252 sdef, and 4 hp bold. I also give it a chople berry to survive any physical fighting attack, even a focus punch from a breloom. I know this is not really important to survive a breloom, but it does help and give you a little bit of advantage against fighting attacks. I prefer this over max defense because you still get the edge over fighting attacks, and are still able to survive against other physical sweepers such as T-tar and salamence salamence and can out stall most special attackers.
How is a Chople berry helping at all, you just survived a fighting attack, what can Blissey do back? (Besides Counter...) Also, a thing like Breloom can just set up. It will probably set up a substitute, and even if you break it, it will just put you to sleep and set up a substitute as you are forced to switch. Also how do you stand up to CBtar, or Outrage?
 
4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpDef is easily the best. It seriously needs all the def EVs it can get and it's HP is already gigantic
 

cim

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Can we do less "I prefer this", more research, damage calculations, and analysis please? I get that some people like one spread and some people like another, that's the whole reason I want to make a lengthy analysis of the EV spread option in the first place. I'll do some later tonight, but I was looking for "I use Bold because I need to survive this attack" more than "pc++ i agree"

leftovers and sand negate each other so really for stall purposes lefties numbers aren't relevant
 
Check these few damage calculations:

Blissey with 252 HP / 252 Def Bold
Code:
[LIST]
[*]252 Attack Jolly Tyranitar Stone Edge: 42.58% - 50.14%
[*]252 Attack Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge: 69.89% - 82.35%
[*]252 Attack Adamant Choice Band Scizor U-turn: 47.90% - 56.44%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Scizor Superpower: 66.67% - 78.43%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Gyarados +1 Life Orb Waterfall: 63.03% - 74.09%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Flygon Outrage: 41.60% - 48.88%
[/LIST]
Blissey with 252 HP / 252 Def Calm
Code:
[LIST]
[*]252 Attack Jolly Tyranitar Stone Edge: 46.36% - 54.76%
[*]252 Attack Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge: 76.19% - 89.92%
[*]252 Attack Adamant Choice Band Scizor U-turn: 52.24% - 61.76%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Scizor Superpower: 72.83% - 85.71%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Gyarados +1 Life Orb Waterfall: 68.91% - 81.09%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Flygon Outrage: 45.38% - 53.50%
[/LIST]
Blissey with 252 Def Bold
Code:
[LIST]
[*]252 Attack Jolly Tyranitar Stone Edge: 46.70% - 54.99%
[*]252 Attack Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge: 76.65% - 90.32%
[*]252 Attack Adamant Choice Band Scizor U-turn: 52.53% - 61.90%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Scizor Superpower: 73.12% - 86.02%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Gyarados +1 Life Orb Waterfall: 69.12% - 81.26%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Flygon Outrage: 45.62% - 53.61%
[/LIST]
Blissey with 252 Def Calm
Code:
[LIST]
[*]252 Attack Jolly Tyranitar Stone Edge: 50.84% - 60.06%
[*]252 Attack Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge: 83.56% - 98.62%
[*]252 Attack Adamant Choice Band Scizor U-turn: 57.30% - 67.74%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Scizor Superpower: 79.88% - 94.01%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Gyarados +1 Life Orb Waterfall: 75.58% - 88.94%
[*]252 Attack Jolly Flygon Outrage: 49.77% - 58.68%
[/LIST]
If I were to list the spreads for taking physical attacks most efficiently, this is what it would look like:

1. 252 HP / 252 Def Bold
2. 252 HP / 252 Def Calm
3. 252 Def / 252 SpD Bold
4. 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm

If I wanted to choose one of these spreads, it would either be the first or second one. The first one gives more reliability against the heavy hitters like Tyranitar and Scizor, which Blissey greatly benefits from, but the second one still offers great physical bulk, but it adds more insurance against powerful special attacking threats.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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Bold allows 4/252 Blissey to never be OHKOed by Max Atk LO Naive Outrage from Salamence after SR (takes 86% max). Calm gives a decent chance for that KO to occur (79.6% - 93.9% damage).

Scarf Flygon's Outrage does 49.7% - 58.6% to Calm, and 45.6% - 53.5% to Bold. This means that it's much harder for Blissey to try to stall against a Flygon since it's pretty much guaranteed to be losing HP every turn if Sandstorm is up.

Choice Scarf Tyranitar's Stone Edge deals 46.6% - 54.9% to Bold Blissey, a shaky 2HKO. Calm, on the other hand, is taking 50.8% - 60%, a guaranteed 2HKO. Superpower is even better, since it's dealing 74.5% - 87.7% to Bold Blissey (must roll max damage to OHKO after SR), compared to 81.3% - 95.7% to Calm Blissey, a ~50% chance of OHKO. Meanwhile, Pursuit deals a paltry 37.3% - 43.9% to Bold Blissey, vs. 40.6% - 48% to Bold Blissey. Against CBTar, you're looking at a much nastier 66.9% - 78.8% to Calm, vs. 61.2% - 72.2% to Bold.

Gyarados is even more fun. Against a fully offensive +1 Adamant LO DD Gyarados, Waterfall is dealing 75.5% - 89% to Bold, allowing you to potentially Thunder Wave against Gyarados in a pinch as long as it doesn't roll max damage. Meanwhile, Calm is taking 82.5% - 97.2%, facing a >50% chance to be OHKOed after SR.

Here's where HP EVs might actually come in handy. Naive ScarfTran's 4 Atk Explosion deals 100.8% - 118.7% to Calm Blissey, but only 91.6% - 107.8% to Bold Blissey. Max HP Blissey actually has a 0% chance to be OHKOed if somehow SR isn't down. If Heatran opts to preserve its defenses and go Timid instead, it has a fair (33%) chance not to OHKO 4/0 Bold Bliss after SR, and a 0% chance without SR. Against Max HP Blissey, it literally has to roll max damage in order to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Heatran is probably the strongest specially based Exploder around, so imagine how it works against stuff like Gengar.

I'm sure that this list is far from comprehensive, but it illustrates some key advantages that Blissey gets from Bold. Your turn. How does Calm benefit Blissey in its pursuit of not dying horribly to Special attacks?
 

cim

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1. 252 HP / 252 Def Bold
2. 252 HP / 252 Def Calm
3. 252 Def / 252 SpD Bold
4. 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm

If I wanted to choose one of these spreads, it would either be the first or second one. The first one gives more reliability against the heavy hitters like Tyranitar and Scizor, which Blissey greatly benefits from, but the second one still offers great physical bulk, but it adds more insurance against powerful special attacking threats.
252 / 252 Calm is less efficient on both ends of the spectrum than running Bold and just taking 80 EVs from HP to Special Defense, so I wouldn't use that spread with the idea of "it takes special sets better" unless it takes specific ones a bit more...

calm shit will go here
 
4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpDef is easily the best. It seriously needs all the def EVs it can get and it's HP is already gigantic
Lots of people are saying this. As the OP stated: back up your claims with hard facts in damage calculations. Here are a few common scenarios to consider (from Smogon's calculator) with every spread I have ever used:

CBScizor Pursuit (switching) on:
252/252/4 Bold: 36.4% - 43%
252/252/4 Calm: 39.8% - 46.9%
240/252/16 Bold (Lefties+7 is the best against residual damage): 36.6% - 43.2%
240/252/16 Calm: 39.9% - 47.1%
176/252/80 Bold (Lefties+7): 37.4% - 44.2%
176/252/80 Calm: 40.9% - 48.2%
112/252/144 Bold (Lefties+7): 38.3% - 45.2%
112/252/144 Calm: 41.8% - 49.3%
48/252/208 Bold (Lefties+7): 39.2% - 46.3%
48/252/208 Calm: 42.8% - 50.5%
24/252/232 Bold (Lefties+1): 39.6% - 46.7%
24/252/232 Calm: 43.2% - 51%
4/252/252 Bold: 39.9% - 47.1%
4/252/252 Calm: 43.6% - 51.4%

Naive DDMence Outrage:
252/252/4 Bold: 65.7% - 77.5%
252/252/4 Calm: 71.8% - 84.6%
240/252/16 Bold (Lefties+7): 66% - 77.8%
240/252/16 Calm: 72.2% - 85%
176/252/80 Bold (Lefties+7): 67.5% - 79.6%
176/252/80 Calm: 73.8% - 86.9%
112/252/144 Bold (Lefties+7): 69.1% - 81.4%
112/252/144 Calm: 75.6% - 89%
48/252/208 Bold (Lefties+7): 70.7% - 83.4%
48/252/208 Calm: 77.4% - 91.1%
24/252/232 Bold (Lefties+1): 71.4% - 84.2%
24/252/232 Calm: 78.1% - 91.9%
4/252/252 Bold: 71.9% - 84.8%
4/252/252 Calm: 78.7% - 92.6%

New MixMence Draco Meteor:
252/252/4 Bold: 28.3% - 33.3%
252/252/4 Calm: 25.8% - 30.4%
240/252/16 Bold (Lefties+7): 28% - 33.1%
240/252/16 Calm: 25.5% - 30.1%
176/252/80 Bold (Lefties+7): 27.2% - 32.1%
176/252/80 Calm: 24.7% - 29.4%
112/252/144 Bold (Lefties+7): 26.7% - 31.5%
112/252/144 Calm: 24.3% - 28.7%
48/252/208 Bold (Lefties+7): 25.9% - 30.8%
48/252/208 Calm: 23.7% - 28.1%
24/252/232 Bold (Lefties+1): 26% - 30.7%
24/252/232 Calm: 23.4% - 27.9%
4/252/252 Bold: 25.8% - 30.4%
4/252/252 Calm: 23.5% - 27.6%

LOGar (Timid) Focus Blast:
252/252/4 Bold: 36.4% - 43.1%
252/252/4 Calm: 33.3% - 39.5%
240/252/16 Bold: 36.6% - 43%
240/252/16 Calm: 33.5% - 39.4%
176/252/80 Bold (Lefties+7): 35.7% - 42%
176/252/80 Calm: 32.5% - 38.3%
112/252/144 Bold (Lefties+7): 34.8% - 40.9%
112/252/144 Calm: 31.5% - 37.4%
48/252/208 Bold (Lefties+7): 34.1% - 40.1%
48/252/208 Calm: 31.1% - 36.8%
24/252/232 Bold (Lefties+1): 33.8% - 39.9%
24/252/232 Calm: 30.7% - 36.2%
4/252/252 Bold: 33.7% - 39.9%
4/252/252 Calm: 30.7% - 36.2%


Something else to consider is Blissey's speed and special attacking EVing. With 112 SpAtk EVs, for example, Blissey 2HKOs SpikerSkarm and standard Magnezone with Flamethrower and OHKOs Scizor after SR damage. 8 speed EVs is enough to outspeed basically every Machamp looking to switch in.
 
I'd like to know Plus' opinion of this topic, considering he is the one who had this spread made standard when he was testing Blissey for QC. I found the post he made regarding his testing of Blissey, but this was all he posted about the EVs.

Blissey wants 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe Bold on all its OU sets.
I think the reason(s) that these EVs were chosen should be better explained before we all start expressing our opinions.
 
I always run 252 Def/ 252 SpDef on every single blissey i use. the ability to take physical hits better, to me, seems trivial, since im not going to leave blissey in, i am going to switch to skarmory/metagross/celebi/<physical wall>. As for bold/calm I forget what I run. I'm pretty sure my teams are like 50/50. I alternate which one I use. Imo, it would be easier to just slash Calm/Bold in all the sets and just make a paragraph at the end of the analtysis page about why one should use calm and bold and the differences in each. similar to slaking's adv page where it has the discussion about focus punch instead of brick break/rock slide. sorry for no caps and shit but i am lagging really badly and the text doesnt come up immediatlely
 

cim

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After talk on IRC the general consensus is that 252 HP / 252 Def remains Standard and I'll write up a detailed paragraph or three detailing the specific advantages of other spreads and what types of teams and scenarios best call for them as a special subsection.
 
I don't think there should be one EV spread for the entire OU analysis. It depends on what moves you are using. For instance, if you have Ice Beam or Flamethrower you are going to want to be Bold to take MixMence's Outrage and kill with Ice Beam or Scizor's whatever to kill with Flamethrower. If you only have Seismic Toss however, you don't really have a reason to stay in on a physical attacker, and can easily use a Calm nature. Furthermore, if you are using Blissey on a stall team, you will already have a counter to hopefully all physical threats and don't need Blissey to take any hard physical attacks. A Calm nature with however many SpD EVs will work just fine.
 

shrang

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Would it be of benefit to have a section (Like Theorymon's "Salamence's Quirks over Rayquaza" section just on the different spreads Blissey can take after all the sets back before "Other Options" and "Team Options" and the like??
 

eric the espeon

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If someone is willing to write up an entirely non biased section, I would not be against it. There is clearly divided opinion among the general public, even though the analysis strongly favors Bold (and apparently most top players do too).
 

cim

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Would it be of benefit to have a section (Like Theorymon's "Salamence's Quirks over Rayquaza" section just on the different spreads Blissey can take after all the sets back before "Other Options" and "Team Options" and the like??
That was what I was planning on.

I also personally think in the context of stall, EVing assuming an always full health Blissey is a dangerous proposition, but for more offensive teams that play faster this is probably not a bad assumption.
 

remlabmez

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4 / 252 bold is fine. I have limited experience with blissey but when I used her i used 24 hp / 252 def / 232spf @ bold, I like that set as well..but i'm not being picky here so I will go with the majority
 

Farmer

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4 / 252 bold is fine. I have limited experience with blissey but when I used her i used 24 hp / 252 def / 232spf @ bold, I like that set as well..but i'm not being picky here so I will go with the majority
Same here is there anything important that Blissey even needs calm for ?
 
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