Gen 2 Blissey (OU Revamp) [QC 2/2] [GP 0/2]

Earthworm

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:gs/blissey:
[OVERVIEW]
Blissey is largely overshadowed by Snorlax due to Snorlax's incredible special bulk being complemented by tremendous offensive power. Blissey has even greater special bulk than Snorlax, but pales in comparison in terms of the damage it can dish out. Its primary role outside of simply taking hits is to cure its team of status with Heal Bell, and its remaining moveslots tend to be used to deter foes that might otherwise try to take advantage of it. Blissey does have access to interesting options such as Counter and Thunder Wave, but unfortunately they are incompatible with Heal Bell, so Blissey can only make use of them when it has dropped what is arguably its most useful move. Nonetheless, it is possible to play Blissey aggressively by taking advantage of its access to coverage moves, status moves, and Counter. Blissey's biggest flaw overall is that it struggles to deter many dangerous Pokemon like Snorlax and Nidoking as well as struggling to fit coverage for both Cloyster and Forretress on the same set. As long as Pokemon on the opposing team have Rest, it struggles to make any offensive progress whatsoever, unlike Snorlax and Raikou with which Blissey competes for the role of special wall. Furthermore, it is susceptible to being OHKOed by Explosion from the special attackers it would ideally be walling like Exeggutor and Gengar. Despite its drawbacks, Blissey still takes special hits better than any other Pokemon by far and is therefore a worthy consideration for defensive teams.

[SET]
name: Cleric
move 1: Heal Bell
move 2: Flamethrower / Ice Beam / Toxic
move 3: Toxic / Light Screen / Present / Sing
move 4: Soft-Boiled
item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Blissey's aims with this set are to keep its team healthy and to take strong special hits for its team. Its main form of utility is Heal Bell, which works well with teammates that use Rest, such as Snorlax and Skarmory. Blissey most often uses Flamethrower as its attacking move, which works well in combination with Toxic, since several notable Toxic-immune Pokemon, such as Skarmory, Steelix, and Forretress, are weak to Fire. Forretress in particular can put a lot of pressure on more defensive teams due to its access to Spikes and Rapid Spin, and is therefore one of the main reasons for Blissey to choose Flamethrower over Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. However, Ice Beam can be used to make Zapdos less of a safe answer while simultaneously threatening Toxic-immune Nidoking. Additionally, the chance of inflicting a game-changing freeze is available should Ice Beam be chosen. Toxic is a common choice for Blissey as it allows it to pose a significant threat to dangerous sweepers like Machamp and Marowak in the long term, and it can also force Pokemon that have Rest—most commonly Snorlax—to use it. This can provide Blissey's teammates with the opportunity they need to set up a sweep.

An alternative to Toxic is Light Screen, which Blissey can use to better protect itself against Growth sweepers like Vaporeon and support its team. This can be particularly useful for reducing risk against Zapdos and Raikou when using powerful sweepers like Belly Drum Snorlax and Swords Dance Marowak, two Pokemon that significantly benefit from being able to find opportunities to set up from full health. Light Screen can also be used alongside Toxic by forgoing attacking moves entirely, although this can allow low HP Pokemon and dangerous Toxic-immune Pokemon like Nidoking and Gengar opportunities to recover their health with Leftovers and attack freely and is therefore a choice only suitable to particular teams, such as those that use Spikes with a Ghost-type to improve the matchup against Forretress and prevent free Leftovers recovery. Another option that Blissey can use to punish greedy opponents is Present, a move that is extremely dangerous to any Pokemon with a secondary or singular type that deals special damage, such as Cloyster, Raikou, Tyranitar, and Vaporeon. While it is not threatening at all to Pokemon like Snorlax and Zapdos, which have Normal and Flying as their singular and secondary types, it limits the number of Pokemon that can take Blissey on safely and can punish severely Pokemon that are threatened by it. Sing is useful as a surprise sleep move to catch Pokemon off guard, and its low accuracy is somewhat offset by the fact that Blissey can typically find opportunities to use it many times during any given game. However, it will inevitably miss on the first attempt a lot of the time, which unfortunately ruins the surprise factor entirely and allows the opponent to safely handle it with a Sleep Talk user. Lastly, Blissey uses Soft-Boiled to keep itself healthy, which works well with Heal Bell to ensure Blissey does not become permanently paralyzed or poisoned.

Team Options
========
Blissey works best with defensive teams due to their ability to better handle Pokemon that can take advantage of Blissey, such as Snorlax. Pokemon such as Skarmory which can take on powerful physical attackers make very beneficial teammates. For mixed Snorlax variants, Rock-types such as Golem and Tyranitar can prove to be useful, and Blissey can provide them with Heal Bell support in the event that they become poisoned. Blissey can make a wide variety of strategies successful due to its unique support options and the fact that it takes dangerous special attackers on so effectively. Sweepers such as Machamp, Marowak, and Snorlax can take advantage of Blissey's support by running Rest alongside their boosting and attacking moves, allowing them to risk taking hits they might usually not be able to. Belly Drum Snorlax in particular is a great choice alongside Heal Bell Blissey with Flamethrower. Even 999 Attack Snorlax can sometimes struggle to overcome Skarmory, as Skarmory can Curse up and then try to Rest off Snorlax's damage, leaving Snorlax walled. If its entry is timed correctly, Flamethrower Blissey can force Skarmory out before it can burn any Rest turns, which can lead to Snorlax getting to face an incapacitated Skarmory that can't protect itself with Defense boosts. However, it should be noted that a Skarmory with RestTalk or Heal Bell support can prevent this strategy from working. Pokemon such as Rhydon, Exeggutor, and Tyranitar are all crippled by status, so using Blissey alongside them can allow them to take risks they might normally be severely punished for. Pokemon that use instant recovery moves, such as Umbreon and Belly Drum Clefable, can also take advantage of Heal Bell support as they can be less afraid of status inflictions. However, the fact that these Pokemon share a Fighting weakness with Blissey can introduce a significant Machamp weakness, so this must be considered when building a team with Blissey. Starmie is another very popular choice for a Blissey teammate thanks to its excellent type synergy, instant recovery move, and access to Rapid Spin, which greatly benefits the defensively inclined teams Blissey tends to be a part of. In partsicular, Starmie's excellent matchup against Machamp is very useful to Blissey teams. Cloyster is also a great option to use alongside Heal Bell Blissey, since many Cloyster will try to trade poison inflictions when setting up Spikes. If Rapid Spin is used on Cloyster or a teammate, this can make it seriously difficult for the opponent to keep Spikes up. Aside from Starmie, Zapdos and Misdreavus are useful teammates to deal with Machamp should Cloyster be chosen. Zapdos is also solid against a variety of other troublesome offensive threats, including Nidoking, Vaporeon, and Tentacruel, while Misdreavus can check Snorlax alongside Skarmory, acts as a spinblocker when used with Spikes, and can nullify Explosion that may be used to target Blissey or its teammates. Moreover, both commonly run Rest and can be cured of sleep by Blissey.

[SET]
name: Counter
move 1: Thunder Wave / Sing / Thunder
move 2: Ice Beam / Flamethrower
move 3: Counter / Thunder
move 4: Soft-Boiled / Counter
item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========
Blissey can choose to employ a more aggressive approach by forgoing its role as a cleric and taking advantage of its access to powerful status moves and coverage attacks. Despite its lack of attacking power with which to threaten Snorlax, it can retain efficacy in this role thanks to the threat of Counter, which makes any physical attacker think twice before attempting to take Blissey down. Thunder Wave allows Blissey to cripple any Pokemon that is not a Ground type, which can be very useful in setting up slow but powerful Pokemon such as Marowak, Machamp, and Snorlax for a sweep. It pairs well with Ice Beam, which hits Thunder Wave-immune Ground types super effectively and has a chance of inflicting a freeze. Alternatively, Sing can be used as Blissey's status move, which can incapacitate threats such as Snorlax, Cloyster, and Forretress for extended periods of time. However, Sing's effectiveness is somewhat contingent on the opponent not expecting it, and it is inconsistent due to its very low accuracy. Nevertheless, the potential effectiveness of the move and the opportunities to use it generated by the prevalence of special attackers makes it a worthwhile consideration. Thunder can also be used as a pseudo-status move if one's aim is to maximize coverage and include multiple of Blissey's high utility moves on the same set all at once. It does massive damage to Pokemon like Cloyster and Skarmory and has a decent chance of inflicting paralysis. An alternative option for an attacking move is Flamethrower, which hits Steelix, Forretress, and Skarmory for heavy damage. If Blissey is only running one attacking move, Ice Beam and Flamethrower are the preferred options due to no Pokemon being immune to them. However, it is worthwhile considering using a Blissey with Thunder as a second attack, as Cloyster, a very important target, will often try to set up Spikes against Blissey and will be significantly impaired if Thunder lands.

Other than status moves and Heal Bell, by far the highest utility move Blissey can take advantage of is Counter. Counter allows Blissey to threaten the physical attackers that target Blissey's awful Defense. It is most effective when the opponent is not expecting it, although even after it has been revealed, the opponent will be hard-pressed to take Blissey down without resorting to physical attacks, which can make Blissey quite awkward to deal with for more offensive teams. Unfortunately, Counter is incompatible with Heal Bell, which leaves Counter Blissey rather susceptible to status and inhibits its ability to pose a longer term threat against defensive teams whether it runs Soft-Boiled or not. Lastly, while it might seem like an alien idea to drop Soft-Boiled, Blissey's huge special bulk and its Leftovers can allow it to last a surprisingly long time even without its trademark healing move, and if Blissey manages to catch just one Pokemon with Counter, the opponent will often be at a large disadvantage.

Team Options
========
Counter Blissey fits less well on ultra-defensive teams and is instead best placed alongside powerful attackers that can take better advantage of the status inflictions and forced switches it can provide. Some of these include Snorlax, Marowak, and Machamp, however there are many possible options available. It is important to be able to deal with or threaten Curse Snorlax, as while Counter Blissey can dissuade it from attacking immediately, it can do little to prevent it from setting up. Machamp is one of the only Pokemon that can offensively threaten a Curse-boosted Snorlax and greatly benefits from Counter Blissey's ability to discourage unboosted Snorlax from hitting it as it switches in. Phazers such as Steelix, Rhydon, and Skarmory can also deal with Curse Snorlax with varying degrees of effectiveness depending on Snorlax's coverage attacks. These Pokemon also benefit from Blissey's ability to paralyze Snorlax, since they will outspeed a paralyzed Snorlax after setting up their own Curse boosts. Machamp is another Pokemon that is critical for a Blissey team to be able to handle, as it is one of the only Pokemon that can take out Blissey with a single unboosted attack other than Explosion or Self-Destruct. Some checks that go well alongside offensive Blissey include Exeggutor and Nidoking, although they are fearful of Hidden Power Bug and Earthquake. Starmie can also be used, although using it will typically cause your team to have to take a more defensive approach to Snorlax, which can then result in Counter Blissey being a poor fit due to its inability to cure Starmie and itself of status. Another option is Heracross, which checks most Machamp and Nidoking fairly well, but struggles in the long term against Snorlax and often struggles to get past Skarmory and Zapdos. Lastly, it is often a good idea to bring a Spikes user such as Cloyster or Forretress to assist Blissey and its team with wearing down the opposition.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
========
Reflect can be used to give Blissey's teammates an easier time switching into Snorlax and allow Blissey to potentially take on mixed attackers like Nidoking and Tyranitar and Explosion users like Gengar and Cloyster. However, it is illegal with Heal Bell and Blissey risks being OHKOed by a critical hit from Snorlax's unboosted Double-Edge at any given time. Growl is attainable alongside Heal Bell and can be used in a similar capacity to Reflect. It can be used to prevent Snorlax from setting up Curse against Blissey and encourage foes to switch out, and it also has a lot of PP which can be useful for PP stalling in some scenarios. However, Blissey may not be able to punish the switches it encourages effectively, it remains susceptible to critical hits from Snorlax and other Pokemon, and using it turns Blissey into an ideal setup opportunity for Belly Drum Snorlax variants. Thunderbolt is an option on Blissey that hits both Skarmory and Cloyster super effectively and has perfect accuracy, although Blissey tends to prefer either Thunder's paralysis chance or Flamethrower's super effective damage against Forretress and Steelix.

Checks and Counters
========
**Snorlax**: Snorlax is the primary reason for Blissey not being common, as it can shrug off anything that Blissey can do to it bar Counter and can easily use Blissey as setup fodder or hit it for massive damage with its STAB attacks. Curse Snorlax is a massive threat to offensive teams and Belly Drum Snorlax is a huge threat to defensive teams, and Blissey can do little to prevent either from setting up freely against it.

**Machamp**: Machamp is the only Pokemon that can outright OHKO Blissey with an unboosted attack other than Explosion and Self-Destruct, and no matter what Blissey does, Machamp retains the ability to OHKO with a critical hit Cross Chop. However, most Machamp despise being inflicted with status, so they must be wary when switching into Blissey.

**Physical Attackers**: Most strong physical attackers can severely threaten Blissey with their STAB attacks. Marowak and Heracross both 2HKO Blissey while Golem and Rhydon usually 3HKO.

**Explosion**: Pokemon with high Special Attack stats can lure in Blissey and then use Explosion to remove it. Even weaker Explosion users such as Gengar can OHKO Blissey due to its low Defense, and once Blissey is removed, special attackers such as Zapdos, Raikou, and Jynx become much more threatening.

**Poison-types**: Poison-types such as Nidoking, Tentacruel, and Muk can switch into Toxic Blissey with relative impunity, as they will usually take very little damage from Blissey's attacks. They do have to beware of Blissey having the correct coverage move or a less common move such as Sing, Thunder Wave, or Counter, however.

**Mixed Attackers**: Mixed attackers such as Gengar, Dragonite, and Tyranitar can be quite threatening to Blissey. They can run Dynamic Punch to deal massive damage to Blissey and potentially prevent it from recovering with the accompanying confusion. Although uncommon as a mixed attacker, Zapdos can also use Drill Peck to threaten a 4HKO against Blissey, which is enough to put Blissey in danger of being taken out by a critical hit or force it to use up all of its Soft-Boiled PP.

**Status**: While Blissey is commonly seen as one of the best Pokemon to counter status thanks to Heal Bell, it too must be wary of some status afflictions. Blissey is highly susceptible to sleep moves, and once it is put to sleep it will be unable to cure its teammates of status. Pokemon such as Jynx and Gengar can try to fish for a freeze against Blissey due to its low damage output, and if frozen, Blissey will be unable to cure itself. One should also keep in mind that Toxic has more PP than Heal Bell, which can lead to dangerous lategame situations if Blissey needs to cure particular teammates or itself. If Blissey lacks Heal Bell, it will need to be careful of poison and paralysis too, although its enormous special bulk will often allow it to take on special attackers even when afflicted with these.

**Setup Sweepers with Rest**: Setup sweepers with Rest can take Blissey's status attacks and take advantage of its passivity to set up boosts before curing themselves and attempting a sweep. Curse Snorlax, Curse Tyranitar, Growth Vaporeon, and Curse Heracross are some of the most common sweepers to use this combination, but others such as Skarmory, Steelix, Jolteon, and Kangaskhan can also pull this off if Blissey lacks the necessary coverage moves to deal with them.

**Belly Drum Users**: Blissey's meagre attacking power affords Belly Drum users such as Charizard, Quagsire, Clefable, and the aforementioned Snorlax a great opportunity to set up for a sweep. While Blissey's Toxic can discourage these foes from switching in while its team is healthy, the passive damage alone cannot be depended upon to stop a sweep from these Pokemon, as damage is not taken by the poisoned foe on turns on
which a Pokemon is KOed. It's therefore crucial for Blissey to prioritize keeping key checks healthy with its Heal Bell support when facing Belly Drum users.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Earthworm, 15210]]
- Quality checked by: [[Jorgen, 53302], [BKC, 52012]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]
 
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Earthworm

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So Blissey is not a popular Pokemon in general due to people not liking its passivity and not running "hard stall" that much. Due (partially) to that, I feel like the second set is fairly uncharted territory in modern GSC but I suspect it can work. However, if I can't get it to work and people don't like the fact that it's in the analysis, I am happy to remove it. I posted this as a WIP so that people could comment on what they think about that set especially (and everything else too of course).

I'm not in much of a rush to finish this one so I'll probably take my time testing the second set before I keep working on it.
 

Earthworm

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I've been testing non-Heal Bell Blissey fairly extensively and I think it is viable, but Seismic Toss is pretty useless. I've been favouring Thunder / Ice Beam / Thunder Wave and either Counter or Soft-Boiled and pairing it with offensive Pokemon that do well against Snorlax (e.g. boomlax, Steelix, Cloyster, Machamp).

There is a recent trend where people are commonly running RestTalk Snorlax with either Curse or two attacks. This is good news for Counter Blissey since Monolax is easily walled and two attack Snorlax can't threaten Counter Blissey without risking getting KOed in return (unless it's asleep). It is also very hard to KO Blissey with Jynx, although without a Fire-type attack (or SToss which is terrible) Blissey can't break Substitute so it is threatened by Ice Beam freeze.

With the current state of affairs I expect to have more free time than usual so I am keen to get the ball rolling with this analysis. I know Mr.E has experience using Counter Blissey so I am curious about what he thinks the best analysis moveset combinations would be. Any other feedback is also welcome, such as from the QC team.
 
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Mr.E

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I really like Counter paired with Sing, as Nails loves in RBY, because Sing discourages Snorlax from choosing to Curse up instead of simply attacking. That's by far the most important consideration but Blissey doesn't really have an alternative, except Growl (or heaven forbid Mud-Slap) which has obvious anti-synergy, so Sing it is. (Growl's still not terrible because it can never be "deactivated" like Sing and it can act as bait later. DE is also strong enough even at -1 that Lax is near-guaranteed OHKOed by Counter if they fish for a crit.) I also think raw is okay, just know you're gonna have a bad time if Lax comes in and Curses on your Counter. Lax still runs plenty of non-Curse sets and other physical attackers do exist.

I don't think Toss is so bad on paper just because it's usually Blissey's strongest attack without type advantages and Toss covers more or less everything, including being by far the most threatening move to Lax if you've got it on low HP and it's itching for an opportunity to recover. But I understand people usually want a more tailored counter to what ails the rest of their team, and Toss is basically unviable with Counter specifically because it telegraphs that you don't have Heal Bell.

Ice Beam is the obvious default single attack, though I don't think you're married to it if you want to use a different attack for whatever reason. Threat of freeze discourages typical Special sleep talkers, plus it threatens the Ground-types that are amongst the scariest physical attackers aside Lax and usually carry buff moves themselves that can play around outright Counter spam (especially Marowak because you're screwed if you let it SD for free). I'd also consider no-attack movesets because Blissey obviously has a lot of good support moves available, but as a rule I personally dislike no-attack movesets because they're so easily abused by low-HP opponents to recover.

I've also considered running Present just to make Blissey a more direct threat to special attackers. Ice Beam covers Zapdos, who otherwise bops Present with its secondary Flying typing, and is of course still the best general attack against physical attackers (threatens freeze and hits Grounds). Add Growl to minimize how much of a dog you are to Lax, as all Blissey are; you don't need Light Screen because Blissey itself is the threat here. (Or add Toss and aggressively hit Snorlax in the mouth, eh? 2x Toss + Spikes is 50% damage.) Growl/Reflect + Light Screen makes like the best generic pivot ever, though it's not substantially different from any other dual-screener and that's not much of a strategy in GSC where Light Clay isn't a thing yet and hard counters still exist.

TL;DR Sing / Counter / Ice Beam / Softboiled. Maybe slash in Growl.
 
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Jorgen

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The classic theory behind Counter Blissey is that it should resemble a Heal Bell set to maximize your chance of "catching" somebody with it. This is yet another point against Seismic Toss (if you needed it), but also against moves like Thunder Wave and Reflect. Granted, the natural anti-synergy of the latter moves with Counter probably offsets the reveal of no Heal Bell somewhat (i.e., cause folks to believe you didn't bother with Counter because it pairs poorly with such moves, especially if you reveal everything but the presumed Softboiled).

Is the idea behind the non-Counter version of Twave Blissey supposed to be similar to how non-Curse Pgon2 works, but with a safer matchup against Electrics? Is this powerful enough to use without the potential upside of Counter? I can see you maybe getting 2-3 Pokemon paralyzed in the early game as your opponent ducks and dives to scout for Counter without outright trying to PP stall with their Snorlax, which would reveal its set too early. I can see it working, but at the same time, the parallels with Pgon2, notable "niche pick", aren't the most encouraging. And that's in the best case where your opponent behaves precisely as I suggested they would; relying on that is a layer of unreliable that seems unappealing.
 

Earthworm

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Mr.E

That is an interesting set but it definitely has major exploitable flaws. It is a high risk, high reward set because it relies on Sing for Cloyster and gives it free opportunities to wake up. I really think BoltBeam coverage is great on it. Counter is a necessary part of your set so I don't think it can be dropped for coverage, but perhaps Sing can be slashed with Thunder.

The classic theory behind Counter Blissey is that it should resemble a Heal Bell set to maximize your chance of "catching" somebody with it. This is yet another point against Seismic Toss (if you needed it), but also against moves like Thunder Wave and Reflect. Granted, the natural anti-synergy of the latter moves with Counter probably offsets the reveal of no Heal Bell somewhat (i.e., cause folks to believe you didn't bother with Counter because it pairs poorly with such moves, especially if you reveal everything but the presumed Softboiled).

Is the idea behind the non-Counter version of Twave Blissey supposed to be similar to how non-Curse Pgon2 works, but with a safer matchup against Electrics? Is this powerful enough to use without the potential upside of Counter? I can see you maybe getting 2-3 Pokemon paralyzed in the early game as your opponent ducks and dives to scout for Counter without outright trying to PP stall with their Snorlax, which would reveal its set too early. I can see it working, but at the same time, the parallels with Pgon2, notable "niche pick", aren't the most encouraging. And that's in the best case where your opponent behaves precisely as I suggested they would; relying on that is a layer of unreliable that seems unappealing.
The Electrics are absolutely terrifying, as is Jynx. They should definitely not be underestimated. Being able to cover them safely on an offensive team and force your opponent into certain Pokemon which aren't even reliable answers due to the lurking Counter threat is great for Blissey. Once the absence of Counter is known about, the opponent does only risk paralysis with Snorlax, but even this is not a bad outcome, and having the extremely reliable Electrics answer + switch-forcer can make it worthwhile. It's also a huge point in Blissey's favour that is has a ton more safe entry points than P2.

Even if Snorlax gets paralysed and knows you have Counter, it's still in an awkward position if it doesn't have Curse. The current meta provides quite favourable conditions due to this. I've also played against numerous Nidoking that LK Blissey and then are really tempted to EQ it down, but to do this they are risking getting OHKOed every turn on a wake up.

As for Seismic Toss, it's definitely OO material or worse at this point.
 
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wyc2333

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Despite its drawbacks, Blissey still takes special hits better than any other Pokemon by far and is therefore a worthy consideration for defensive teams.
| 22 | Blissey | 5 | 5.56% | 0.00% |

imo although winrate doesn't mean much, its drawbacks should be fleshed out also bc bliss is the only OU mon that ranks B- in viability.

Blissey is largely overshadowed by Snorlax due to Snorlax's incredible special bulk being complemented by tremendous offensive power.
i think it's overshadowed by raikou and stalk lax instead of other lax sets on defensive teams
 
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Jorgen

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Hey offering a QC here. Mostly nitpicks, great work! I know you put a lot into this analysis, particularly in doing the legwork to test the non-Heal Bell variants.

Analysis said:
Ice Beam can be used to prevent Zapdos from stalling Blissey
Damage Calculator said:
Blissey Ice Beam vs. Zapdos: 124-146 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Granted, crit and freeze chances give Blissey a way to win, but Zapdos (particularly Sleep Talk Zapdos) is perfectly capable of stalling Blissey even if it has Ice Beam. Especially because, unlike the matchup against Thunderbolt Raikou, Zapdos has the Speed advantage. Although I'll concede that Zapdos generally has less reason to risk tanking Ice Beams from Blissey than Thunderbolts from Raikou.

Analysis said:
An alternative to Toxic is Present, a move that is extremely dangerous to any Pokemon with a secondary or singular type that deals special damage, such as Cloyster, Raikou, and Tyranitar.
Surely Vaporeon ought to be listed there, no? As I see it, Vaporeon is the main reason to have the move, as otherwise Vaporeon boosts up unfettered and simply sweeps, much to "ultimate Special wall" Blissey's chagrin. Light Screen variants complicate that plan, but Vap can still win with a timely crit or even just outlast Blissey's PP.

Also, are we sure that Present can't ever be slashed in the other slot? Or any of the other moves, for that matter? Light Screen + Toxic is certainly a reasonable-looking move combination, for instance, and one that the current analysis on-site admits as a possibility.

Finally: can Present crit? And if it can, does it actually change its damage? I ask because a crit could OHKO Vaporeon.


Analysis said:
If its entry is timed correctly, Flamethrower Blissey can force Skarmory out before it can burn any Rest turns, which can lead to Snorlax getting to face an incapacitated Skarmory that can't protect itself with Defense boosts.
I like this line, but note if the opponent has Heal Bell of their own (e.g., via the plausible SkarmBliss combo) or a Sleep Talking Skarm, this strategy doesn't really help.

Analysis said:
Pokemon that use instant recovery moves, such as Umbreon, Clefable, and Porygon2, can also take advantage of Heal Bell support as they can be less afraid of status inflictions.
I would argue that Pokemon that use Rest without Sleep Talk are perhaps even better beneficiaries of Heal Bell support. Get that Resting Mixlax back in the game, get that Roar Raikou back to Roaring, allow Marowak to use Rest for sustain, that sort of thing. In fact, you don't even need a recovery move! Cloyster (mentioned later), Machamp, Rhydon, and Egg all benefit greatly from being allowed to risk taking Toxics. In fact, Pokemon with instant recovery are pretty low on my list of "this Pokemon enjoys Heal Bell support", especially given the problem of extremely poor type synergy that you mention.

Analysis said:
Starmie is another very popular choice for a Blissey teammate thanks to its excellent type synergy, instant recovery move, and access to Rapid Spin.
Agreed on the first point, but the instant recovery point feels odd (see above) and it's currently worded as though Blissey in particular appreciated Rapid Spin support (as opposed to it just generally being good for a team).

Analysis said:
Rapid Spin Cloyster is also a great option to use alongside Heal Bell Blissey, since many Cloyster will try to trade poison inflictions when setting up Spikes.
Does it need to have Rapid Spin?

Analysis said:
Zapdos and Misdreavus are useful teammates to deal with Machamp should Cloyster be chosen.
Misdreavus' utility as a spinblocker alongside Cloyster is worth bringing up, as is its Toxic vulnerability (and therefore Heal Bell's ability to vastly improve both its and Cloyster's longevity, which can make the difference between winning and losing the long-term spikes game against, say, a Forretress stall team).

Analysis said:
name: Offensive Tank
This name might be a bit much. "Offensive" implies it's here to do damage, but this is clearly a utility tank meant for offensive teams. I don't even want to call it a "support" set either, as a triple-elemental moveset (ice beam / flamethrower / thunder) is technically within the bounds of the slashes. It also feels strange that such a set is endorsed, but Screens are not even slashes. It certainly feels bizarre that Ice Beam, a move that does nothing to define this Blissey set, is the one move without a slash.

Perhaps the main thing I'm feeling here is that this set simply lacks focus, as if it were actually multiple sets forced into a single set (or less charitably, a bunch of OO stapled together). I can't decide if it wants to emphasize Counter, surprise tactics more generally (e.g., Sing, Softboiled-less Counter), Paralysis spread, or simply being a tanky thing with a lot of coverage, but it should probably focus on just 1-2 of those things.

Maybe this set should, above all, emphasize a central role of Counter? It's certainly the highest-leverage move Blissey gets to use once freed from the shackles of Heal Bell, and the analysis certainly spends a lot of time on it as-is. The set may not even have to change that much, just the justification of everything. For instance: Thunder/Flamethrower over Counter exist to score surprise KOs against Spikers. Paralysis spread is the main *other* thing it can do when not threatening Counter, and the confusion that a possible Counter can cause may permit one to spread it quite effectively. That sort of thing.

Analysis said:
while it might seem like an alien idea to drop Soft-Boiled, Blissey's huge special bulk and its Leftovers can allow it to last a surprisingly long time even without its trademark healing move, and if Blissey manages to catch just one Pokemon with Counter, the opponent will often be at a large disadvantage.
The fact that it's such an alien idea actually works in your advantage. If you reveal your other 3, the opponent is likely to assume the 4th is softboiled, then WHAM! right in the kisser. One can maybe assume this from the subtext, but making this idea more explicit may be appropriate.

Analysis said:
However, it is illegal with Heal Bell and Blissey risks being OHKOed by a critical hit from Snorlax's unboosted Double-Edge at any given time.
...so Blissey should not use it to try to wall Physical attackers without any other means to force them out.

Analysis said:
Growl is attainable alongside Heal Bell and can be used in a similar capacity to Reflect. It can be used to prevent Snorlax from setting up Curse against Blissey and encourage foes to switch out, but Blissey may not be able to punish these switches effectively, remains susceptible to critical hits from Snorlax and other Pokemon, and turns into an ideal setup opportunity for Belly Drum Snorlax variants.
Growl also has tons of PP, which helps in PP stalls.


Analysis said:
Lastly, Blissey can use Defense Curl or Curse alongside Rollout to attempt an offensive sweep, although it remains susceptible to powerful physical attackers and critical hits from foes such as Machamp, Heracross, Marowak, and Snorlax and will struggle to beat phazers, Explosion users, and Toxic users in the long term. Blissey can try to beat some of these with its other moveslots, in which you can consider Heal Bell, Counter, Reflect, Soft-Boiled, and Rest—it should be noted that while Snorlax can OHKO Reflect Blissey with an unboosted Double-Edge, if it has set up more Curse boosts than Blissey and Blissey is also behind Reflect, a critical hit will no longer OHKO as all boosts will be taken into account when calculating damage.
How much have you tested the Rollout idea? This feels like a lot of detail for an option that's ultimately quite dubious.


Analysis said:
Machamp is the only Pokemon that can outright OHKO Blissey with an unboosted attack other than Explosion and Self-Destruct
Specify without a critical hit, too.


Analysis said:
**Mixed Attackers**: Mixed attackers such as Gengar, Dragonite, Tyranitar, Charizard, and Clefable can be quite threatening to Blissey; the former three can effectively run Dynamic Punch to deal massive damage to Blissey and potentially prevent it from recovering with the accompanying confusion, whereas the latter two can set up Belly Drum against it and proceed to OHKO it afterwards. Zapdos can also use Drill Peck to threaten a 4HKO against Blissey, which is enough to put Blissey in danger of being taken out by a critical hit or force it to use up all of its Soft-Boiled PP.
Charizard & Clefable seem peculiar here. I would classify them more as setup sweepers than mixed attackers.

"Although uncommon" should probably precede any mention of Drill Peck Zapdos.


Analysis said:
**Status**: Blissey is highly susceptible to sleep moves, and once it is put to sleep it will be unable to cure its teammates of status. If Blissey lacks Heal Bell, it will need to be careful of poison and paralysis too. One should also keep in mind that Toxic has more PP than Heal Bell, which can lead to dangerous lategame situations if Blissey needs to cure particular teammates or itself.
Blissey is typically seen as one of the most status-tolerant Pokemon out there (even without Heal Bell; it's slow anyway and tanks Electrics so handily that it can afford to take Toxic damage or miss an action thanks to Paralysis), so this feels quite counterintuitive. This should at least be recognized before launching into the long-term PP pressure that concerted status efforts can place on Heal Bell, and a more detailed explanation should probably follow why non-Heal Bell Blissey is "checked" or "countered" by status, too.


Analysis said:
**Setup Sweepers with Rest**
Perhaps this should just be "setup sweepers" to accommodate Charizard & Clefable, with a caveat stating that those with Rest have many more opportunities to punish Blissey's tendency to be setup fodder due to their ability to shrug off Toxic in particular. Vaporeon should also get a mention, albeit with caveats about how tricky its life can be in the face of Light Screen / Present?


QC 1/2 once the comments are addressed.
 

Earthworm

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Granted, crit and freeze chances give Blissey a way to win, but Zapdos (particularly Sleep Talk Zapdos) is perfectly capable of stalling Blissey even if it has Ice Beam. Especially because, unlike the matchup against Thunderbolt Raikou, Zapdos has the Speed advantage. Although I'll concede that Zapdos generally has less reason to risk tanking Ice Beams from Blissey than Thunderbolts from Raikou.
I tried to address this better.

Surely Vaporeon ought to be listed there, no? As I see it, Vaporeon is the main reason to have the move, as otherwise Vaporeon boosts up unfettered and simply sweeps, much to "ultimate Special wall" Blissey's chagrin. Light Screen variants complicate that plan, but Vap can still win with a timely crit or even just outlast Blissey's PP.
Added.

Also, are we sure that Present can't ever be slashed in the other slot? Or any of the other moves, for that matter? Light Screen + Toxic is certainly a reasonable-looking move combination, for instance, and one that the current analysis on-site admits as a possibility.
Tried to address this somewhat.

Finally: can Present crit? And if it can, does it actually change its damage? I ask because a crit could OHKO Vaporeon.
Yes and yes. But Vaporeon is still heavily favoured in a (non-Light Screen) Present Blissey vs RestTalk Growth Vaporeon scenario.

I like this line, but note if the opponent has Heal Bell of their own (e.g., via the plausible SkarmBliss combo) or a Sleep Talking Skarm, this strategy doesn't really help.
Addressed.

I would argue that Pokemon that use Rest without Sleep Talk are perhaps even better beneficiaries of Heal Bell support. Get that Resting Mixlax back in the game, get that Roar Raikou back to Roaring, allow Marowak to use Rest for sustain, that sort of thing. In fact, you don't even need a recovery move! Cloyster (mentioned later), Machamp, Rhydon, and Egg all benefit greatly from being allowed to risk taking Toxics. In fact, Pokemon with instant recovery are pretty low on my list of "this Pokemon enjoys Heal Bell support", especially given the problem of extremely poor type synergy that you mention.
I think I had already mentioned most of these Pokemon in the teammates section. However I tried to reorganise to address this better.

Agreed on the first point, but the instant recovery point feels odd (see above) and it's currently worded as though Blissey in particular appreciated Rapid Spin support (as opposed to it just generally being good for a team).
Addressed by rewording.

Does it need to have Rapid Spin?
Tried to clarify what I meant by this.

Misdreavus' utility as a spinblocker alongside Cloyster is worth bringing up, as is its Toxic vulnerability (and therefore Heal Bell's ability to vastly improve both its and Cloyster's longevity, which can make the difference between winning and losing the long-term spikes game against, say, a Forretress stall team).
Added a mention of this function of Misdreavus's.

This name might be a bit much. "Offensive" implies it's here to do damage, but this is clearly a utility tank meant for offensive teams. I don't even want to call it a "support" set either, as a triple-elemental moveset (ice beam / flamethrower / thunder) is technically within the bounds of the slashes. It also feels strange that such a set is endorsed, but Screens are not even slashes. It certainly feels bizarre that Ice Beam, a move that does nothing to define this Blissey set, is the one move without a slash.

Perhaps the main thing I'm feeling here is that this set simply lacks focus, as if it were actually multiple sets forced into a single set (or less charitably, a bunch of OO stapled together). I can't decide if it wants to emphasize Counter, surprise tactics more generally (e.g., Sing, Softboiled-less Counter), Paralysis spread, or simply being a tanky thing with a lot of coverage, but it should probably focus on just 1-2 of those things.

Maybe this set should, above all, emphasize a central role of Counter? It's certainly the highest-leverage move Blissey gets to use once freed from the shackles of Heal Bell, and the analysis certainly spends a lot of time on it as-is. The set may not even have to change that much, just the justification of everything. For instance: Thunder/Flamethrower over Counter exist to score surprise KOs against Spikers. Paralysis spread is the main *other* thing it can do when not threatening Counter, and the confusion that a possible Counter can cause may permit one to spread it quite effectively. That sort of thing.
Changed a bunch of things to try to address this.

The fact that it's such an alien idea actually works in your advantage. If you reveal your other 3, the opponent is likely to assume the 4th is softboiled, then WHAM! right in the kisser. One can maybe assume this from the subtext, but making this idea more explicit may be appropriate.
Made it more explicit.

...so Blissey should not use it to try to wall Physical attackers without any other means to force them out.
Wasn't totally sure what you wanted me to say here. Any suggestions?

Growl also has tons of PP, which helps in PP stalls.
Mentioned this.

How much have you tested the Rollout idea? This feels like a lot of detail for an option that's ultimately quite dubious.
Removed this section. It was inconsistent in testing and overall had fairly poor results.

Specify without a critical hit, too.
In my opinion it isn't necessary to mention critical hits here. But if you're adamant I could try to reword it.

Charizard & Clefable seem peculiar here. I would classify them more as setup sweepers than mixed attackers.
Considering adding a Belly Drummers section. What do you think?

"Although uncommon" should probably precede any mention of Drill Peck Zapdos.
Changed.
Blissey is typically seen as one of the most status-tolerant Pokemon out there (even without Heal Bell; it's slow anyway and tanks Electrics so handily that it can afford to take Toxic damage or miss an action thanks to Paralysis), so this feels quite counterintuitive. This should at least be recognized before launching into the long-term PP pressure that concerted status efforts can place on Heal Bell, and a more detailed explanation should probably follow why non-Heal Bell Blissey is "checked" or "countered" by status, too.
Tried to go into more detail on this.

Perhaps this should just be "setup sweepers" to accommodate Charizard & Clefable, with a caveat stating that those with Rest have many more opportunities to punish Blissey's tendency to be setup fodder due to their ability to shrug off Toxic in particular. Vaporeon should also get a mention, albeit with caveats about how tricky its life can be in the face of Light Screen / Present?
See above re: Charizard and Clefable. Vaporeon has already been mentioned. I might go into more detail though.


QC 1/2 once the comments are addressed.
Not going to put it at 1/2 yet, would appreciate a response to the above and perhaps a quick once-over if you have time.
 

Jorgen

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Gave it another once-over. Seems good!

Replying to points that seemed to warrant replies:
"...so Blissey should not use it to try to wall Physical attackers without any other means to force them out."
Ah yes this was pretty cryptic. I was concerned that "Snorlax can still crit you" being listed as a weakness of Reflect might be giving the wrong impression. As in, it's a "hit and run" sort of move, not something you use to try and tank Double-Edges. Frankly this point is probably just me being persnickety, though, so you can safely ignore this point.

"In my opinion it isn't necessary to mention critical hits here. But if you're adamant I could try to reword it."
It's not a big deal, I wouldn't say I'm "adamant". I just thought adding the phrase "...without a critical hit" might be more precise. But to be concise it's probably better to just leave it out. So you can safely ignore this point.

"Considering adding a Belly Drummers section. What do you think?"
If you think so. I think a unified "setup sweepers" section could also work: one which drops the toxic-immune/rest/healing move requirement in the header but still offering a sentence clarifying that it's a huge plus not to fear Toxic.

Un-doing an edit I suggested earlier:
"Moreover, if Blissey has the opportunity to reveal three moves that are not Soft-Boiled, many opponents will be quick to assume that Blissey does not have Counter and abandon their caution, which can play to the Blissey user's advantage."
On second thought, perhaps it's better to leave this out. If it's left in, it's hard to imagine anyone actually being duped by a trick that's readily advertised on a Smogon analysis, at least in high-level play (which is the environment we're trying to discuss, after all). And if it's left out, I think if I saw a Blissey who had revealed 3 moves, NONE of which were any of Softboiled / Heal Bell / Counter, I'd be quite wary of it anyway, and probably just try to hit it with Toxic and wait.

QC 1/2 following a plan for the Belly Drummers in Checks & Counters and a second look at that last sentence of the Counter set description.
 

Earthworm

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Gave it another once-over. Seems good!

Replying to points that seemed to warrant replies:
"...so Blissey should not use it to try to wall Physical attackers without any other means to force them out."
Ah yes this was pretty cryptic. I was concerned that "Snorlax can still crit you" being listed as a weakness of Reflect might be giving the wrong impression. As in, it's a "hit and run" sort of move, not something you use to try and tank Double-Edges. Frankly this point is probably just me being persnickety, though, so you can safely ignore this point.

"In my opinion it isn't necessary to mention critical hits here. But if you're adamant I could try to reword it."
It's not a big deal, I wouldn't say I'm "adamant". I just thought adding the phrase "...without a critical hit" might be more precise. But to be concise it's probably better to just leave it out. So you can safely ignore this point.

"Considering adding a Belly Drummers section. What do you think?"
If you think so. I think a unified "setup sweepers" section could also work: one which drops the toxic-immune/rest/healing move requirement in the header but still offering a sentence clarifying that it's a huge plus not to fear Toxic.

Un-doing an edit I suggested earlier:
"Moreover, if Blissey has the opportunity to reveal three moves that are not Soft-Boiled, many opponents will be quick to assume that Blissey does not have Counter and abandon their caution, which can play to the Blissey user's advantage."
On second thought, perhaps it's better to leave this out. If it's left in, it's hard to imagine anyone actually being duped by a trick that's readily advertised on a Smogon analysis, at least in high-level play (which is the environment we're trying to discuss, after all). And if it's left out, I think if I saw a Blissey who had revealed 3 moves, NONE of which were any of Softboiled / Heal Bell / Counter, I'd be quite wary of it anyway, and probably just try to hit it with Toxic and wait.

QC 1/2 following a plan for the Belly Drummers in Checks & Counters and a second look at that last sentence of the Counter set description.
Thanks, I have implemented the changes and marked the analysis as QC 1/2.
 
glad to see flamethrower + toxic as the main moves

Blissey most often uses Flamethrower as its attacking move, which works well in combination with Toxic, since many Pokemon that are immune to Toxic are weak to Fire.
to add more important info, I'd change this to something along the lines of "...are weak to Fire, notably Skarmory, Steelix and especially Forretress, a Pokemon that can put a lot of pressure on the defensive teams Blissey is usually used on with the threat of Rapid Spin."

However, Ice Beam can be used to make Zapdos less of a safe answer while simultaneously threatening Toxic-immune Nidoking.
maybe add that it similarly chips away at the toxic-immune gengar.

Toxic is a common choice for Blissey as it allows it to pose a significant threat to dangerous sweepers like Machamp and Marowak in the long term, and it can also force Pokemon that have Rest to use it.
snorlax should be mentioned here, seeing as it's the most common/automatic switch to bliss.

Aside from Flamethrower and Present, Blissey can also use Light Screen to better protect itself against Growth sweepers like Vaporeon and support its team
I'd mention that light screen weakens the electrics so that pokes like drumlax and sdwak become more threatening

or it can use Sing as a surprise sleep move to catch Pokemon off guard, although its mediocre accuracy means that it cannot be depended on.
perhaps an addendum or two - bliss gets a ton of opportunities to fire sing off, somewhat making up for the lack of accuracy, and the fact that bliss doesn't threaten sleep talk users

Even 999 Attack Snorlax can sometimes struggle to overcome Skarmory, as Skarmory can Curse up and then try to Rest off Snorlax's damage, leaving Snorlax walled. If its entry is timed correctly, Flamethrower Blissey can force Skarmory out before it can burn any Rest turns, which can lead to Snorlax getting to face an incapacitated Skarmory that can't protect itself with Defense boosts. However, it should be noted that a Skarmory with RestTalk or Heal Bell support can prevent this strategy from working.
nothing to add here, I just wanted to voice my appreciation for this section

Pokemon that use instant recovery moves, such as Umbreon, Clefable, and Porygon2, can also take advantage of Heal Bell support as they can be less afraid of status inflictions. However, the fact that these Pokemon share a Fighting weakness with Blissey can introduce a significant Machamp weakness, so this must be considered when building a team with Blissey.
I'm not sure p2 is worth mentioning as a bliss teammate, I've never seen that. for clef, I'd specify that it uses belly drum, because otherwise it might not be intuitive to a newer player why you'd pair such a seemingly similar pokemon with bliss.

Starmie is another very popular choice for a Blissey teammate thanks to its excellent type synergy, instant recovery move, and access to Rapid Spin, which greatly benefits the defensively inclined teams Blissey tends to be a part of.
its fighting resist/ability to check machamp is also really valuable, especially given the last sentence

However, Sing's effectiveness is somewhat contingent on the opponent not expecting it, and it is inconsistent due to its very low accuracy.
see earlier comment about not threatening sleep talkers

overall, this analysis is thorough excellent! it goes into the extensive detail blissey deserves. once these changes are implemented, consider this qc 2/2
 

Earthworm

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Thanks very much for the check!
to add more important info, I'd change this to something along the lines of "...are weak to Fire, notably Skarmory, Steelix and especially Forretress, a Pokemon that can put a lot of pressure on the defensive teams Blissey is usually used on with the threat of Rapid Spin."
Didn't use this exact wording but rearranged it to mention Pokemon of particular note.

maybe add that it similarly chips away at the toxic-immune gengar.
I feel like it isn't appropriate to mention Gengar there because the sentence is comparing Ice Beam to Flamethrower and both can chip Gengar effectively. However, this comment did make me notice that I have made a non-attacking Blissey an option following Jorgen's check and should probably write about the advantages and disadvantages of that somewhere in the analysis. I have attempted to address this later on in the set comments for the Heal Bell set.

snorlax should be mentioned here, seeing as it's the most common/automatic switch to bliss.
Done.

I'd mention that light screen weakens the electrics so that pokes like drumlax and sdwak become more threatening
Done.

perhaps an addendum or two - bliss gets a ton of opportunities to fire sing off, somewhat making up for the lack of accuracy, and the fact that bliss doesn't threaten sleep talk users
I think I have adequately addressed this.

I'm not sure p2 is worth mentioning as a bliss teammate, I've never seen that. for clef, I'd specify that it uses belly drum, because otherwise it might not be intuitive to a newer player why you'd pair such a seemingly similar pokemon with bliss.
Removed P2 and specifically mentioned Belly Drum Clefable (although experienced players might already know that Clefable doesn't do much other than Belly Drum).

its fighting resist/ability to check machamp is also really valuable, especially given the last sentence
Added a specific mention of Machamp there.

overall, this analysis is thorough excellent! it goes into the extensive detail blissey deserves. once these changes are implemented, consider this qc 2/2
I think this should now probably be good, but since I have rearranged the set description of the Heal Bell set, I would appreciate one final look-over for that section.

edit: I've looked over it again myself and fixed something minor, happy enough to just mark as 2/2 now. Thanks!
 
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