Resource BSS Viability Rankings

[Ika Ika Musume]

Not really worth it on either of them

252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Black Hole Eclipse (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 107-126 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 93-109 (60.7 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 77-91 (50.3 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 177-209 (115.6 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With a SD on the switch, even Knock Off can get the KO. It MIGHT help in a 1v1 scenario, but I don't buy it. What's more, you can get a functional equivalent of the move without loosing the chance to use a Z-move somewhere else by using a Belue or Charty Berry and Natural Gift. You even get a technically better chance to break through Heatran and Salamence due to how damage is rounded. Assuming Rock type:

+2 252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Natural Gift vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 139-164 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 138-163 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Natural Gift vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 118-140 (69 - 81.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 117-138 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You can even swap the nature to Naive (you will die to specials attacks regardless) and use a Wiki Berry instead for extra utility outside having that one-time anti-Zard nuke, mostly in being able to take on Metagross and Tapu Fini more consistently, altough it will notably deal less damage to Salamence.

252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Natural Gift vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 94-112 (54.9 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


As for Volcarona:

252 SpA Flame Body Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard in Sun: 139-164 (90.8 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Flame Body Volcarona Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 134-158 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Not even worth discussing. Fire Blast does more damage thanks to Zard's sun. Even if you don't want a Firium-Z, there are coverage options that also kill after a single Satk boost and have other situational uses:
+1 252 SpA Flame Body Volcarona Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 175-207 (114.3 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (toxapex+rotom-H)
+1 252 SpA Flame Body Volcarona Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 186-219 (121.5 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (anti-rain)




If you are good enough and face incompetent enough opponents, you can win with an Unown mate. And I am willing to bet Vivillion, Gengar and Mimikyu did most of the job laddering up. And I also bet that you only used Focus Blast in 1/15 matches (only counting ones that Gengar actively contributed in). Inacurate moves can and will betray the user sooner or later, they can help on the start but you will never be able to stay on the top with them for hopefully obvious reasons.



I've never wanted to dwelve nor care about past gens. I only mentioned them at all because you commented Snorlax used to be bad, and he never was.


No decent player will EVER spam Magma Storm against Moltres, they will just keep switching in and out, taunting him if necessary, taking advantage of his pathetic moveset that doesn't even have Toxic to prevent dragons, keldeo, tapu fini, suicune, or Marowak from coming in for free. I've seen that (CENSORED) stall team dozens of times, and I can tell you, they never survive more than 50 turns before eating a 6-0.

Kartana however does not learn Natural Gift and Charizard is just one of many matchups in which Kartana can use z-breakneck blitz. It's the same with volcarona, you can do the charizard calcs (though you got them all wrong, these are regular zards, not zard x for example which takes nothing from z-fire. As for some of what you are saying about volc, other than flame body, mega swampert outspeeds and always ohkos volc.

You've literally done calcs where you've made up the moves a pokemon learns. I doubt someone who doesn't even know what moves Kartana knows has much knowledge of the top of the tier.

As for OU, it's kinda irrelevant but obviously you dont use magma storm on moltres, you bait it out and switch moltres in on it, allowing other mons like mega sableye to stall out heatran and prevent stealth rock or prevent it from trapping toxapex.

 

[Tramuntana]

Kartana however does not learn Natural Gift and Charizard is just one of many matchups in which Kartana can use z-breakneck blitz. It's the same with volcarona, you can do the charizard calcs (though you got them all wrong, these are regular zards, not zard x for example which takes nothing from z-fire. As for some of what you are saying about volc, other than flame body, mega swampert outspeeds and always ohkos volc.

You've literally done calcs where you've made up the moves a pokemon learns. I doubt someone who doesn't even know what moves Kartana knows has much knowledge of the top of the tier.

As for OU, it's kinda irrelevant but obviously you dont use magma storm on moltres, you bait it out and switch moltres in on it, allowing other mons like mega sableye to stall out heatran and prevent stealth rock or prevent it from trapping toxapex.

My bad about Natural Gift. This move is so-long forgotten I didn't even check if it was still a TM.

Zard-Y has the same defense as vanilla Zard, and the only difference is neither Z-move of volcarona has a chance to KO unboosted, while psychic becomes unable to score the OHKO at +1. Not that it really matters, as you can simply boost again and take his attack.

252 SpA Blaze Charizard-Mega-Y Overheat vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona in Sun: 93-109 (58.1 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As for Zard-X:
252 SpA Flame Body Volcarona Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 134-158 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Flame Body Volcarona Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 124-146 (81 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Flame Body Volcarona Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 118-139 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Neither kills unboosted realistically, all kill after rocks or a boost. Again, unnecessary to waste a slot on Hyper Bad.

As for other possible targets, Salamence and Heatran were already dicussed, Dragonite takes even less damage than Salamence, and right now I can't think of any other that you can't just cover with Hidden Power, Bug Buzz, Giga Drain or Z-Fire Blast.

I'll ignore the OU segment before this turns into a rant.

Now let's get back to the matter at hand. Moltres is outclassed by Volcarona, Tornadus-T, Dragonite and Salamence on every possible niche it could theoretically fullfill. They have better options for coverage, access to better support or set-up moves, higher offensive presence, more longevity for one reason or another, and more versatility, wich also means you don't immediately telegraph to the opponent what you are up to.


TLDR: None of this is relevant to the discussion. Point is, Moltres is completely outclassed at anything he might try to do by other, better pokemon, and there is no reason to rank him.

 

[Psynergy]

I'd say this discussion has reached its peak by now, no need to keep dragging it on further before this becomes aggressive. Moltres isn't being ranked right now and that's all there is to it, but that doesn't mean we're against revisiting it in the future.

I will say, however, that there has been discussion on reworking and adjusting C rank and the Pokemon currently in it, as well as a few Pokemon in the ranks above, so there may be some changes in how the lower ranks will function. Don't expect any overly drastic changes to the VR structure this late in the generation though, but there may be another sweep of the lower ranks at some point.

 

[Tramuntana]

In that case, I'd suggest start by cleaning out Wobuffet, Golisopod, Gengar, Buzzwhole and Milotic, and debatably Incineroar. Almost no one uses them, there is no necessity at all to pick them over other pokemon with similar typing/abilities other than pure sentimental reasons, and it is long overdue.

 

[marilli]

I would definitely keep Wobbuffet and Incineroar. The focus of VRs should be on Pokemon that have

1. a meaningful niche proven by concrete, high-level results from multiple players on various teams actually bringing them frequently, as vs. simple theorymon or one outlier.
2. something that satisfies a niche so unique that while rare / an afterthought, those Pokemon being listed on this resource would serve our resource well.
3. it doesn't carve out such an outstanding niche, but its stats / typing and movepool versatility actually allows it to be decent at filling some holes and being a decent Pokemon in general when you bring it to games.

Something like Incineroar, Wobbuffet, Quagsire, Sableye, etc. meet the first category. Wobbuffet and Incineroar has seen multiple success on Gengar teams (as well as some niche usage as SD Stallbraeker), while Quagsire and Sableye have seen some use on stall teams. While their usage is restricted to a single core, their niche is valid enough that it should be on the tierlist.

Ditto, Eevee, Shuckle, etc. are in the second category. While they don't really see that much high level usage because of their unreliability and dependence on matchup, they have such a unique niche and they work well enough in most environment that it is a serious threat on ladder play. and beginners would do well to know of their existence.

Gastrodon, Milotic, Buzzwole, etc. i think falls on the 3rd category. Meh and bleeds momentum sometimes but is good at repeatedly switching into certain threats thanks to its recovery and unique movepool / ability / set of resistances

I'd be fine with wiping Aero, Rhyperior, and Golisopod. Aero stall has been nonexistent lately, Golisopod doesn't really see use either, and Trick Room offense in general, even Mega Mawile, has been on the downtick.

(fwiw, I think Moltres is decent, but fails to meet any of those 3. A moltres core don't exist because they're usually Charizard-Y cores if they mean to pick it with any frequency. If you can stop zard and volcarona, you can stop moltres. Finally, it's not actually that good at making some unique role out of switching into blaziken / mimikyu because of its low speed, so you could easily lose if mimikyu does not activate Flame Body, or uses Ghostium Z to bypass it entirely. I think thats why the talonflame comparison came in, because talonflame actually is decent at switching in repeatedly without rocks up, because it threatens a faster wisp. A pokemon not being on the VR doesn't mean it's bad, but that 1. you better know what you're doing to deviate, 2. if you check the things on this list, chances are u already check threats off of it)

 

[Biber]

I nominate Incineroar from C to B-

Usage wise it's more in the B/B- tier (currently on #64) and it already scored multiple spots on the first few places of the cartridge ladder.

While it fills a similar role as Landorus, it has some matchups where it's strictly better, like against Porygon2, Tapu Lele, Celesteela, Ferrothorn or Mega-Scizor. Many teams also opt to just use both of them, forming a powerful Intimidate/U-Turn core that's often paired with Mega Gengar. While it's most often seen in this combination with Assault Vest as an item, there are also some other sets Incineroar can run: The Sword Dance/Z-Move Wallbreaker set may be used to have a pokemon similar to Charizard X, if there is no place for another Mega on the team. Another popular set is defensive 50% Berry, often running Will-O-Wisp.

I think it's still a little bit underexplored, as it's Hidden Ability was not introduced right at the start of USUM. And I feel that it's stronger than Entei and Marowak-A, the other two Fire pokemon in the B- tier

Also want to nominate Shedinja to C

It's a good option on stall teams that can switch in on a lot of mons not having a super effective attack against it and spam Toxic/Will-O-Wisp. As it runs Focus Sash most of the time it can also 1on1 offensive Mega-Gengar with Shadow-Sneak (53.3 - 63.7%). And it also exerts a lot of pressure on Team-Preview as the opponent always has to bring something that can beat it.

 

[1_TrickPhony]

Would like to echo both the nominations by Biber.

Also, a mention that Incineroar is stronger than Marowak-A, hell ya. That mon is atrocious in our current meta, it is not viable in trick room at a high level, and gets dunked on way too much of the cast. This isn't 2017 when Koko was on every team, its time to drop the clubber. Marowak-A from B- --> C, maybe even UR.

Other mons I've been having thoughts about recently

Rises:
Tapu Fini: A+ --> S
Tapu Fini can situationally check every mon in S, has an incredible mixed bulk (115/130), very serviceable offense, a great ability in the world of bulky wisp and toxic aegi, it provides great team support. None of this is super new, its a mon that is receiving similar usage as the S mons on top level teams. I think what is now setting it apart is its Tapunium-Z set, which makes life for some of its traditional checks quite a bit harder, and allows it to hit and run without needing to play a coverage guessing game. This set isn't S rank on its own, but in combination with all its other highly viable sets and #4 usage spot, it definitely should warrant consideration for S rank.

Both Latias/Latias-M: B --> B+
Heavy usage in the Latias + Fini + Steel DFS core, it forms a very strong defensive core with impressive upside. Very solid natural bulk, good defensive typing with cool options like reflect type, stored power, and Z-breaking. I see it as the face of new age balance, and people like Jmal can attest to its utility. Its easily the worst mon in the core, but with all the other mons being in the high As, this shouldn't be in B.
(This was edited as I DO NOT mean Lati(o)s, that mon isn't great unfortunately, just Lati(a)s)

Viv (again): I assume we are just waiting for the new slate, but lets get this guy up, please.

Drops:
Blaziken A ---> A-
Blaziken has dropped off a ton in viability, and its hard to imagine the throne it once sat on ever belonging to it. The increase in tapu fini usage puts a damper in its playability, and blaz-pass has shifted towards using the mega instead, for good reason. Gone are the days where you could hope to get multiple SDs/bulk ups into a pass off. In terms of non-pass sets, it can lure people who expect the mega with things like HP ice/grass-z, but good players can tell by team preview whether mega is likely or not. If its not a mega, you scout the lure, and then do whatever because blaziken is simply not a strong pokemon without a mega stone in 2019.

Politoad, Kingdra B- --> C
Rain is very hard pressed to not use Pelipper as its rain setter, for its natural synergy w/ Swampert. Similarly, Kingdra as a rain sweeper is outclassed by Swampert, and its hard to fit 3 dedicated rain pokes in 1 team in todays meta. If you are gonna use rain, use pelipert, anything else is C viability niche material. Pretty certain on the toad dropping, but I can see kingdra being the sweeper w/ no pert if you think you have a mega you'd rather use alongside rain mons like scizor.

Golisopod/Milotic C --> Shadow Realm
Both these water mons are bad. Goli I'm certain has no competitive uses, Milotic falls under the bulky water category but has been too far outclassed by the others that it should never see play. Its hard enough to justify primarina/suicune over fini in most builds, trying to argue for milotic, even with it having recover, is very hard to justify. If your gameplan revolves around these, you should probably reassess, as you are playing a losing playstyle.

 

[Psycho FOX]

Since they "revived" this, I give my opinion

Gengar from C to UR
In my opinion, I can't find enough reasons to use it without a mega-stone, if a Sash set can work but I think Naganadel could better occupy that team slot.

I agree with:
T. Fini from A + to S
Incinerate from C to B-
Marowak from B- to UR
Politoed and Kingdra to C
Vivi from C to B-
Blaziken from A to A-
Milotic from C to UR
Shedinja from UR to C ("maybe", just maybe, Blissey could also enter the viability list, but I don't think it will happen)
I do not say anything about the duo of Lati, because I never used them in a serious way in any team to be able to comment on something relevant.

 

[Omastar68]

You should change that to Incineroar:) If ranking moves Incinerate would be lower never gets used.

The only thing I really don't get in the VR is Muk-Alola at B. Dragonite is pretty obviously a better mon, and you could argue that even before looking at abilities. I'm positive Snorlax is better fora Gluttony and Curse set, in every way. Power of Alchemy is for doubles, and Poison Touch is weak imo. 30% to regular poison w/ your own contact moves.

Muk has a good movepool but that's not unusual. The other 2 poison/dark mons, Drapion and Skuntank, also have good movepools, somewhat better abilities, and similarly mediocre stats. But you don't see them on here lol not that I'd expect to. Muk has priority, but not Sucker Punch(!?) Just wimpy non-STAB Shadow Sneak, which has the same coverage as dark anyways, pretty much. Last thing is just that I NEVER see Muk-Alola. I see Crobat a fair bit, and Nidoking. But not this poison, I'd much rather use Vileplume.

 

[Ika Ika Musume]

You should change that to Incineroar:) If ranking moves Incinerate would be lower never gets used.

The only thing I really don't get in the VR is Muk-Alola at B. Dragonite is pretty obviously a better mon, and you could argue that even before looking at abilities. I'm positive Snorlax is better fora Gluttony and Curse set, in every way. Power of Alchemy is for doubles, and Poison Touch is weak imo. 30% to regular poison w/ your own contact moves.

Muk has a good movepool but that's not unusual. The other 2 poison/dark mons, Drapion and Skuntank, also have good movepools, somewhat better abilities, and similarly mediocre stats. But you don't see them on here lol not that I'd expect to. Muk has priority, but not Sucker Punch(!?) Just wimpy non-STAB Shadow Sneak, which has the same coverage as dark anyways, pretty much. Last thing is just that I NEVER see Muk-Alola. I see Crobat a fair bit, and Nidoking. But not this poison, I'd much rather use Vileplume.

Muk-Alola is very much underrated and I'd argue it is better than Dragonite. It's definitely far better than Drapion and Skuntank who cannot hold a candle to Muk due to having worse abilities and far worse stats. There are a few things that make Muk great and whilst you have touched on them vaguely, Muks position within the metagame is a lot more than you make it out to be. A combination of its Poison Dark typing and its strong 105/75/100 defences with a respectable 105 base attack allows Muk to check pretty much every Tapu. Beating Tapus is its main thing, but Muk is surprisingly decent vs. a lot of other common pokemon, having an alright matchup vs Mimikyu as well as a good matchup vs. Aegislash and Mega Gengar, being able to pursuit trap them (especially the latter) and remove them from the game. It is also one of the few pokemon with the likes of snorlax and porygon2 that can switch into 90% of Gren sets and live and generally has a decent matchup vs. most gren sets. Talking of other fat pokemon, Muk actually tends to beat them (with a few exceptions like Gliscor in most circumstances and Toxapex) due to knock off, meaning that it will do decently or at least cripple Snorlax, Chansey and Porygon2.

As for being a curse recycle mon, it is generally outclassed by snorlax due to the formers non-weakness to EQ as well as generally absurd HP stat, however Muk does have three things over it, knock off, minimize and the fact it cannot be toxiced. It also naturally beats taunt tapus which would otherwise stop a Lax sweep. Essentially Alolan Muk in certain matchups is better than Snorlax though in the majority of cases Snorlax is king.

As for poison touch, you are mostly going to see it on Assault Vest (Muk so fat that it is basically unkillable by special attacks with an AV and has an excellent movepool). Poison Touch + Poison Jab gives you 51% chance to poison every time you attack which is really obnoxious.

Alolan Muks main problem asides from the obvious type weaknesses I feel is it is hard to slot it into a lot of archetypes, can feel a bit weak sometimes and can be a bit momentum sapping, which is what holds it back.

 

[Omastar68]

Muk-Alola is very much underrated and I'd argue it is better than Dragonite. It's definitely far better than Drapion and Skuntank who cannot hold a candle to Muk due to having worse abilities and far worse stats. There are a few things that make Muk great and whilst you have touched on them vaguely, Muks position within the metagame is a lot more than you make it out to be. A combination of its Poison Dark typing and its strong 105/75/100 defences with a respectable 105 base attack allows Muk to check pretty much every Tapu. Beating Tapus is its main thing, but Muk is surprisingly decent vs. a lot of other common pokemon, having an alright matchup vs Mimikyu as well as a good matchup vs. Aegislash and Mega Gengar, being able to pursuit trap them (especially the latter) and remove them from the game. It is also one of the few pokemon with the likes of snorlax and porygon2 that can switch into 90% of Gren sets and live and generally has a decent matchup vs. most gren sets. Talking of other fat pokemon, Muk actually tends to beat them (with a few exceptions like Gliscor in most circumstances and Toxapex) due to knock off, meaning that it will do decently or at least cripple Snorlax, Chansey and Porygon2.

As for being a curse recycle mon, it is generally outclassed by snorlax due to the formers non-weakness to EQ as well as generally absurd HP stat, however Muk does have three things over it, knock off, minimize and the fact it cannot be toxiced. It also naturally beats taunt tapus which would otherwise stop a Lax sweep. Essentially Alolan Muk in certain matchups is better than Snorlax though in the majority of cases Snorlax is king.

As for poison touch, you are mostly going to see it on Assault Vest (Muk so fat that it is basically unkillable by special attacks with an AV and has an excellent movepool). Poison Touch + Poison Jab gives you 51% chance to poison every time you attack which is really obnoxious.

Alolan Muks main problem asides from the obvious type weaknesses I feel is it is hard to slot it into a lot of archetypes, can feel a bit weak sometimes and can be a bit momentum sapping, which is what holds it back.

Ok thank you, and to be clear regular Muk is still no good? It resists fairy is the only reason I'm asking.

I feel like I've asked before but gl trying to find a super old post plus that might've been for last gen. Is regular Swampert no use? I remember it used to be used Relaxed Sclad/EQ/Yawn/SR?

 

[Solerme]

Ok thank you, and to be clear regular Muk is still no good? It resists fairy is the only reason I'm asking.

I feel like I've asked before but gl trying to find a super old post plus that might've been for last gen. Is regular Swampert no use? I remember it used to be used Relaxed Sclad/EQ/Yawn/SR?

regular swampert sees almost no use since there are better SR lead such as Hippowdon, Sash Landorus and so on

 

[Ika Ika Musume]

Ok thank you, and to be clear regular Muk is still no good? It resists fairy is the only reason I'm asking.

I feel like I've asked before but gl trying to find a super old post plus that might've been for last gen. Is regular Swampert no use? I remember it used to be used Relaxed Sclad/EQ/Yawn/SR?

Regular Muk isn't immune to psychic and resistant to ghost therefore not checking Tapu Lele and not able to trap Mega Gengar. Not having the Dark stab really hurts regular Muk.

Swampert does have a surprising amount of non-mega usage. I'd say it's about 75-80% mega pert, 20% regular pert. Most of those are in the form of pseudo rain, which kind of works like pseudo sand where you can run mold breaker excadrill + sand. Generally you are running helmet pelipper + sitrus berry lead swampert with scald/yawn/sr/roar. I think EVs that I've used are 236 hp,220 def, 4 spa, 44 spdef, 4 speed. This lives ghostium-z from aegi as well as dragonium-z from naganadel whilst living mence hits. I'd imagine there's some alright special attacking perts, but I do think that niche is better for Empoleon which has a better typing, just as good defences and hits harder.

Regular pert does have some advantages like being a lead that threatens Hippowdon, Landorus-T and Tapu Koko whilst not completely dying to Greninja, but it is very niche.

 

[Tramuntana]

Regular pert does have some advantages like being a lead that threatens Hippowdon, Landorus-T and Tapu Koko whilst not completely dying to Greninja, but it is very niche.

Tapu Fini and Shuca Berry/Air Balloon Empoleon do that better, however

 

[1_TrickPhony]

Tapu Fini and Shuca Berry/Air Balloon Empoleon do that better, however

But neither can pretend to be mega swampert and fake outspeeding most the metagame.

 

[Ika Ika Musume]

As well as this, both of those pokemon are threatened by standard Tapu Koko. Something like a gastrodon is a better example, though you would never see regular swampert anyways outside of the context of pseudo rain.

 

[Omastar68]

Ok cool. I'm not like a fan pf Swampert-can't remember using(though I have,) and actually never used the mega lol! But just wondered cause remember it was a thing.

I always am using something very strange lol. Certainly my nominations have all been pretty dubious, from Armaldo to Regice^^ But what I'm gonna nominate to C for now seems really good I've had more success w/ it than w/ Regice or any of those sorts.

I really like Mudsdale. First thing first, very good vs. Mimikyu. Not so much Curse, but it can beat the more common ones pretty easy in my experience. Rock Tomb is a good way to break the Disguise. Naturally Mudsdale still won't be faster but makes the Mimikyu easier to revenge if need be. After that Heavy Slam is an easy OHKO. It's also a great move besides getting 120 BP on many things, namely Mence and Landog, the latter can't hurt Mudsdale very much cause of Stamina. Also OHKOs Lele.

Stamina can quickly make Mudsdale a lot more physically bulky than Hippo, a fairly similar mon that it can be compared to. It is a huge help vs PuP, esp. from Kang w/ the 2 hits that both buff Def. though the 2nd is weak. Mudsdale also has more Atk. and special bulk than Hippo to start. Mostly for a drawback I'd say it really just lacks Yawn. Roar is about the same as Whirlwind, though I prefer attacking w/ Mudsdale vs. setting rocks and all that. I could go on but that about sums it up, Mudsdale for C. Really I'd think higher but keeping it conservative just cause of my bad track record w/ nominating stuff.

 

[MQJinx]

What does everyone think of placements for Diggersby and Mandibuzz? Diggersby had more usage than the likes of Slowbro, Latios, Cloyster, A-Muk, Manectric, Chandelure, Heracross, and a couple of B- rank Pokemon while Mandibuzz has slightly less usage than Heracross but more than Sharpedo during S15 according to pokedb.tokyo.

 

[Omastar68]

What does everyone think of placements for Diggersby and Mandibuzz? Diggersby had more usage than the likes of Slowbro, Latios, Cloyster, A-Muk, Manectric, Chandelure, Heracross, and a couple of B- rank Pokemon while Mandibuzz has slightly less usage than Heracross but more than Sharpedo during S15 according to pokedb.tokyo.

Diggersby has such a good movepool, unlike Azumarill(the other non-mega Huge Power mon,) which has good moves but certainly less of them. Mandibuzz has better stats and more options than Skarm, but worse vs. Mimikyu and Mence which is huge. It seems team dependent vs Mandi just being bad, for instance Bone Rush does good vs. Heatran and 1-2 hits breaks a sub. Azu and Skarm are B+. I'd put the 2 you mention in B-.

EDIT: Also I've come to the conclusion that Chandelure is just...not very good at all. I've liked using it fairly often but more and more it just seems like trash to me. Mainly used it recently w/ TrickSacrf and Infiltrator. Seemed good for Glalie and Gliscor, and other maddening stall-ish things.But often it'll trick, then just die. Blacehalon is direct competition for it. Faster, can be mixed, and even more SpA. Frailer...but Chandy is already so frail w/ that typing and wretched 60 HP! Ability wise not that impressed w/ Chandy as an Infiltrator in general. Flash Fire is unremarkable to me. I mean just use Heatran lol. Beast Boost is much better imo, w/ a Scarf that can get scary if they not immune to what you lock in on, vs a slower, weaker attacker. They both have Trick so Chandy's niche there is Infiltrator-Trick but too small. I'd honestly support Chandy going UR from my experience w/ it.

 

[cant say]

I really like Diggersby. The Sash set has such perfect coverage and immediate power, it dents holes big enough for your team to clean up. Scarf is interesting but it falls into the same pitfall as other scarf Ground-types, notably Garchomp, in that it gets invalidated by Mimikyu/Aegislash+Salamence cores (except having Ice Punch gives Diggers a huge advantage over Chomp against the Mimi cores, and Return is a lot more spammable than Outrage). Electrium Z is also really neat. I’ve been wanting to try a Swords Dance set out recently, possibly with Agility as a double dance option.

The thing with Diggersby tho (lol) is that its biggest competition ie: Nidoking/queen is possibly a better option pretty much all the time, especially since Intimidate spam doesn’t affect them. However, Diggersby has been taken more seriously lately and has been popping up on some super solid teams, so I’d be happy with it sitting around B-


Chandelure is interesting. I think it has a legitimate role as a Trick Room setter with Infiltrator to stop Substitute users stalling out the turns, AND being pretty reliable against Glalie. However this weirdly doesn’t reflect in its usage stats. I honestly think it was a little overhyped since it was on that infamous Lopunny / Naganadel / Skarmory / Snorlax / Gliscor team. I’m fine with it dropping back to B-


I think I gotta agree with 1TP on Fini rising to S. Its usage has peaked this season. It’s probably the easiest Pokémon to put on a team at the moment, more so than Landorus-T imo. Almost every team needs a bulky water, and Misty Terrain is ridiculously good in this format where one turn of hax via Scald burn / Discharge para / Ice Beam freeze / Hippo Yawn spam just ends the battle. Its set versatility is also really good, making it harder and harder to predict.


I think it’s time to also rise Mega Lopunny to A-. This is one of the mons I’ve been more impressed by in our tournaments than through cart ladder, and everyone here knows I don’t like to value tournament success in this thread too heavily. But Lop has proven so consistent the last couple months, and especially this BSPL, and B+ doesn’t reflect this enough. Its speed tier and coverage (thanks to Scrappy) allow it to offensively check / revenge kill so many important Pokémon, most notably Greninja, Tapu Koko, Mega Gengar, Porygon2, Snorlax, Mega Kangaskhan, and Dragon Dance Tyranitar.


Lastly I think we drop Mega Lucario to B+. It just doesn’t impress me. Mimikyu, Volcarona, Flame Charge Charizard, Aegislash... It feels like 80% of teams these days feature these 4 and just invalidate Lucario


Oh I lied one more thing is I’m still on the Vivillon hype train. I think it’s better than C but not much. We need to just put it in B- already.

 

[1_TrickPhony]

Echoing cant say's nomination of Mega Lopunny to A-, this mon would have definitely been on my rises list above (if I hadn't already nommed it to move up twice LOL)

Speaking as one of the users of Lop this BSPL, outspeeding the base 130s and never having to worry about HJK vs ghosts (aside from the 10% miss/protects) is really reassuring, making it a easy pick. Another mon w/ higher viability on our list, Blaziken, has to play a 50/50 game anytime he sees a steel/ghost core (which he can beat in a vacuum but can lose w/ mindgames).

It has tools to beat aegislash, one of the best if not best steels in this format w/ sub/encore on predicted kings shield. Finally, its probably the most viable user of fake out, with the ability to hit mimikyu, and not needing to play a guessing game that Kanga does w/ it.

 

[Omastar68]

I also agree w/ the above. My first reaction to Fini was "WTH Misty doesn't boost STABs(or anything), ruins Scald, and the idiot is already immune to dragon!" Plus no heals...even rest:/ But interestingly it seems really good, even S good, so above other Tapus. Decent Spe, power, good bulk, and good moves. Also those stupid statuses! Hate toxic esp. Fini is a great user of Icy Wind w/ the spe, and having freeze hax off the table mostly.

Lopunny is really good, idk why I haven't used it recently. Can play around Toxapex w/ Sub, and 2 others that have an easy time w/ it often have gotten less common-Cress and Suicune.

I don't really like Lucario either. Should have gotten more Spe or even bulk, not largely useless mixed offenses.

 

[Tramuntana]

I also agree w/ the above. My first reaction to Fini was "WTH Misty doesn't boost STABs(or anything), ruins Scald, and the idiot is already immune to dragon!" Plus no heals...even rest:/ But interestingly it seems really good, even S good, so above other Tapus. Decent Spe, power, good bulk, and good moves. Also those stupid statuses! Hate toxic esp. Fini is a great user of Icy Wind w/ the spe, and having freeze hax off the table mostly.

Lopunny is really good, idk why I haven't used it recently. Can play around Toxapex w/ Sub, and 2 others that have an easy time w/ it often have gotten less common-Cress and Suicune.

I don't really like Lucario either. Should have gotten more Spe or even bulk, not largely useless mixed offenses.

I agree with Fini, she has some nice bulk, the anti-status is a hard stop to many annoying S* on the ladder, most importantly everybody's "favorite" trolling set, CasinoGar.

 

[Omastar68]

Nomming Mega Aggron from UR<--C

This is one of my favorite mons to use, and the only real reason I often haven't is cause it's not ranked here. But it's hard for me to see it as a lesser mega like Sceptile, Blastoise, Latios, etc. Those I hardly think of at all. But mega Aggron-iirc-WAS C rank last gen. And I don't think things have hanged for the worse for it this gen.

It's really good vs Mimikyu. Never-Ending Nightmare isn't too common and still not much of a threat thanks to absurd physical bulk. WoW is more common than would be ideal but burned Heavy Slam will do plenty SE anyway. I feel like the meta is still a bit biased towards physical attackers this gen, which helps Aggron a lot. Mence and Landog ofc get Ice Punched, and EQ is not terribly threatening w/ Filter too. I guess Roost Mence can play around but there's freeze hax and crits, or run Toxic too.

A different typing and good abiliti(es) pre-mega is a huge help too. SR will mess up Sturdy, but since Aggron resists rock it doesn't particularly encourage them to set SR. Sturdy also makes Metal Burst decent.

Special Attackers are a big issue though. Filter is nominal help there-many dangerous special attacks that can OHKO are neutral, like Hydro Vortex from Gren or Fini, electric from Koko. I don't think that's enough not to rank it though. It's at least a better mon than Stakataka which has a giant 4x fighting and ground weakness it's stuck w/ vs being able to mega and all but shed those weaknesses. And Stakataka is not specially bulky so same issues there esp. w/ water. imo reg Aggron>Stakataka isn't unreasonable.

 

[Solerme]

But mega Aggron-iirc-WAS C rank last gen. And I don't think things have hanged for the worse for it this gen.

They have indeed, with all the new faries there is some serious steel-type hate in the meta and if Mega Aggron was a C-ranked mon back in the days, in a meta where dragons were the main threat, it is not like this anymore, or at least not as much.

I do agree that it is a decent mimikyu check, but a single WoW would most likely make it almost useless. I will list what makes Aggron a terrible choice:

- Lack of a good setup move, meaning that a single WoW would make Aggro become a setup bait even for the likes of MMence. It probably would even if it gets Intimidated.
- Average offensive stats for a mega
- Suffers competition from other steel-type that doesn't even require the mega slot, such as Celesteela, Ferrothorn or Heatran.
- Mediocre Spdef, specially if you think that you can't carry a berry or an assault vest with it, meaning that it won't act as a check to the Tapus, which is why you want to use Steel-types in this meta.
- Mono Steel-type isn't that great

Speaking of Stakataka, i'll just say this: It's not a mega, it gets TR and Beast Boost. And having a Rock-type STAB is kinda nice offensively speaking.