Resource BSS Viability Rankings

cant say

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why does Reun just get blown back by Tyranitar in this game...?

hate to say it, but all of those replays were pretty awful. especially the last one where it was just a 145 turn switch-fest and Reun again had no actual impact. If these are the best replays you could cherry-pick then Reun is nowhere near viable imo

You're also basing your nomination on a set (double-boosting Iron Defense / Acid Armour) which is nowhere near its best / most common set...

#17Acid Armor0.9496284062758051%
#19Iron Defense0.7844756399669695%

combined 50% berry usage is 13% which makes it 4th most common item behind Psychium Z, Kee Berry and Life Orb.

This nomination is clearly based on a small sample size from PS mid-ladder. Since it has nothing to do with tournaments, PS high ladder or cart ladder at all I'm inclined to shelve it.
 
why does Reun just get blown back by Tyranitar in this game...?

hate to say it, but all of those replays were pretty awful. especially the last one where it was just a 145 turn switch-fest and Reun again had no actual impact. If these are the best replays you could cherry-pick then Reun is nowhere near viable imo

You're also basing your nomination on a set (double-boosting Iron Defense / Acid Armour) which is nowhere near its best / most common set...

#17Acid Armor0.9496284062758051%

#19Iron Defense0.7844756399669695%

combined 50% berry usage is 13% which makes it 4th most common item behind Psychium Z, Kee Berry and Life Orb.

This nomination is clearly based on a small sample size from PS mid-ladder. Since it has nothing to do with tournaments, PS high ladder or cart ladder at all I'm inclined to shelve it.
I am not sure about the replays as the one you quoted was certainly not a good example (though matchup wise in general reuniculus did well if you got rid of the ttar), but I could see reuniculus being warranted a C ranking considering the amount of stuff that is in there. I've used it once or twice and it's performed alright on some rachet balance team that I did end up using in a tour game. Do I think it is particularly good? Well it's alright and can work. Do I think it is better than Buzzwole or Rhyperior? Yes.

On another note, Mega Steelix is fantastic and should at least be C rank.
 
May I suggest another rise for Empoleon?

Something I have been having a lot of fun lately is Yawn+Whirlpool. This is something that can break bulky teams with extreme ease, and can open up great opportunities for more traditional trappers to come in for free on their intended targets. Even the humble Dugtrio can become a monster with this support. The best part is that Whirlpool's damage and trapping effect will still work during Misty Terrain, so you can catch the Tapu, wait for the terrain to run out and put it to sleep.

As for uniqueness, among other pokemon on the viability list, the only one that could potentially replicate this combo is Hippowdon. And while he has Earthquake to deal with Aegislash more reliably, he is more cramped with move slots, has extremely low special defense and often lacks enough power to get anything done on his own (not to mention Sand Tomb is ten times worse than Whirlpool, missing out key targets like Celesteela and Salamence).

Whirlpool is long from a one-trick-pony however. It can also have other situational uses like breaking Mymikiu's Disguise and Focus Sash in one go, get Hippowdon in range of a Scald KO without triggering his berry, or stacking damage with Toxic or Scald's burn against bulkier targets.
 
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I realize how newbie I was making suggestions! I got to 1650 once!.....I fought an Emp with a yawn whirlpool set....I have nothing for Emp...
 

chemcoop

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May I suggest another rise for Empoleon?

Something I have been having a lot of fun lately is Yawn+Whirlpool. This is something that can break bulky teams with extreme ease, and can open up great opportunities for more traditional trappers to come in for free on their intended targets. Even the humble Dugtrio can become a monster with this support. The best part is that Whirlpool's damage and trapping effect will still work during Misty Terrain, so you can catch the Tapu, wait for the terrain to run out and put it to sleep.

As for uniqueness, among other pokemon on the viability list, the only one that could potentially replicate this combo is Hippowdon. And while he has Earthquake to deal with Aegislash more reliably, he is more cramped with move slots, has extremely low special defense and often lacks enough power to get anything done on his own (not to mention Sand Tomb is ten times worse than Whirlpool, missing out key targets like Celesteela and Salamence).

Whirlpool is long from a one-trick-pony however. It can also have other situational uses like breaking Mymikiu's Disguise and Focus Sash in one go, get Hippowdon in range of a Scald KO without triggering his berry, or stacking damage with Toxic or Scald's burn against bulkier targets.
Gonna have to say no on this one. Trapping in general is not a particularly good strategy, and definitely not one of the main ways Empoleon is used given that Whirlpool has less than 1% usage on it. This indicates that Whirlpool trapping isn't really a new niche that Empoleon has developed since it was originally ranked and thus is deserving of bumping it up to B.

I think Empoleon in B- is fine, though C could work too. Its usage has been dropping every season since its peak in S11 and it never seems to do much whenever I play it on cart.
 
Hey Smogon, it's Ika again with another Snorlax nomination.

I think it is time that we put Snorlax from A- -> A.

Snorlax has only continued to rise as a metagame threat, now sitting at 21st in usage behind Naganadel and I have no doubt that it will be staying there for the rest of the generation. I think the mark of a threat that is in A tier as opposed to A- is how much it warps the meta around it and how much it is considered in teambuilding. The majority of pokemon in A- aren't generally specifically considered at the first or even second stage of teambuilding. Most teambuilders have always thought about Porygon2 when creating teams, now Snorlax is also being thought about in the same vein. I believe that the rise in Mega Lopunny, Mega Lucario and in particular Aegislash is very much because of Snorlax.

The other thing that has changed is that as top nouthuca players have had more chance to develop Snorlax, the number of tools in its arsenal has increased. The most notable example of this is double edge snorlax to give more control over bulky berry procs. Another major development is using counter to take out opposing physical threats designed to take on bulky normals such as hammer arm mega metagross on phaser sets. This is on top of all the things I mentioned in my last post.

Not of note but interesting is that snorlax is one of the few non-sturdy pokemon that can effectively use custap berry.

Anyways, those are my current thoughts.
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
Hey Smogon, it's Ika again with another Snorlax nomination.

I think it is time that we put Snorlax from A- -> A.

Snorlax has only continued to rise as a metagame threat, now sitting at 21st in usage behind Naganadel and I have no doubt that it will be staying there for the rest of the generation. I think the mark of a threat that is in A tier as opposed to A- is how much it warps the meta around it and how much it is considered in teambuilding. The majority of pokemon in A- aren't generally specifically considered at the first or even second stage of teambuilding. Most teambuilders have always thought about Porygon2 when creating teams, now Snorlax is also being thought about in the same vein. I believe that the rise in Mega Lopunny, Mega Lucario and in particular Aegislash is very much because of Snorlax.

The other thing that has changed is that as top nouthuca players have had more chance to develop Snorlax, the number of tools in its arsenal has increased. The most notable example of this is double edge snorlax to give more control over bulky berry procs. Another major development is using counter to take out opposing physical threats designed to take on bulky normals such as hammer arm mega metagross on phaser sets. This is on top of all the things I mentioned in my last post.

Not of note but interesting is that snorlax is one of the few non-sturdy pokemon that can effectively use custap berry.

Anyways, those are my current thoughts.
Second to Ika's nomination, the variety of threats that Snorlax can handle right now is astonishing, but with the semi-recent discovery of immunity snorlax, it has increased to shut down previous top tier checks, such as toxic aegislash, p2, zapdos, and any mon that tries to be cute and toxic as a surprise check (thinking things like metagross, greninja, and rotoms). Free turns off toxic wins snorlax a game on its own.
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
Nomming Moltres to C, for its Z-hurricane set.

Moltres @ Flyinium Z
Modest, High or full SpA, rest modified for your needs
- Hurricane
- Burn Up/Overheat/Fire Blast/Flamethrower
- Flame Charge
- Filler (roost, u-turn, hp ground, toxic)

Caw caw. This flaming chicken is absolutely no joke. This mon hits like a truck, with very, very few mons able to take its dual stab combination (Heatran, Chansey, basically, LOL.) Good example of its firepower (and relatively good bulk)

252+ SpA Moltres Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 184-217 (107.6 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 160-189 (96.9 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(and you can add more bulk to survive this) 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 180 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 159-187 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


There are two obvious reasons why Moltres might flounder: mediocre speed tier combined with poor defensive typing (compounded w/ stealth rocks weakness). This combination is normally a nail in the coffin for any mon, but luckily Moltres can play around this.

With flame charge, it can remedy its relatively mediocre speed, and outspeed up to mega-Lopunny even without full speed investment. Simply put it out against a mon that definitely doesn't want to take a STAB move, forcing it to switch out (scizor, ferro, venu, aegi, kartana, volcarona), and get that free speed boost. Then, you massacre their bulky switch in w/ Z-hurricane (salamence, lando, garchomp).

With burn up and roost. It can maintain control over both its defensive typing, allowing it to play around mons that it shouldn't have any business facing. Lets use tapu fini as an example.

Turn 1:
252+ SpA Moltres Burn Up vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 47-56 (26.7 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 94-112 (55.6 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Turn 2:
252+ SpA Moltres Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 135-160 (76.7 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This also allows you to play around 50% berry sets to nab a KO.

This mon clearly belongs with the other ranked mons, at least in C for now. We should not be like OU and be scared of ranking the bird, just to end up realizing it belonged all along when someone pilots Moltres to major placements in tournaments.
 
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Nomming Moltres to C, for its Z-hurricane set.
Now I have shown you Moltres, you are on the hype train also :P

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlespotsingles-819028984

I actually used Moltres in a tour game six months ago, although I ended up losing the set (though winning the game), you can see the Moltres vs. Defensive lando-t matchup and the utility of Burn Up, allowing me to get a KO in a situation where most people would think bulky Lando-t with rock move would win.

Something that you haven't mentioned is its strength in the 1v1 vs. Mimikyu. Moltres is one of the few pokemon that can switch directly into adamant mimikyu's lets snuggle forever and then proceed to beat Mimikyu in the 1v1 without even having to have roost, whilst having flame charge to negate sub-curse mimikyu, unlike bulkier threats that may fall to that set. This can be done by sacrificing power, going timid and moving towards hp investment whilst keeping the 138 speed benchmark.

Also another thing in the flame birds favour is its abilities, which are excellent.
 

Psynergy

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Hi, it's been awhile since we've done an update and unfortunately this is not a formal update post either. This thread hasn't been overly active understandably because there's not all that much left to really discuss for a meta that's gone largely unchanged for a year now, so there isn't a whole lot to evaluate at the moment. However, we did discuss the nominations up to this point and mostly discussed Snorlax, Porygon2, and Moltres. In the end, only Snorlax is being moved right now from A- to A which needs little explanation. To expand a little further on the general thoughts in discussion though...

Snorlax moves from A- to A in what should be an obvious and fairly overdue change. Nothing has really changed with Snorlax, it's just continued to show through its usage that it's a very dangerous threat that's gone very much unnoticed for too long. If you don't have a Fighting-type or Toxic user then Snorlax can snowball very easily and become near impossible to take down. However, this is just reiterating what has been said about Snorlax in the last vote so I'd refer to the previous vote for further thoughts on Snorlax.

Porygon2 stays in A+ rather than moving up to S, mostly because it hasn't made any strong enough impression to demand the S rank. Porygon2 is an excellent and versatile blanket check to a large portion of the metagame, this much is true, but that's about all there is to it. This is no small feat and it's large contributing factor to its rank, and it stands as another reason for why being a bulky Normal-type is very good in the current meta. However, Porygon2 does not possess the same level of oppressive power that led Mega Salamence to S rank, nor does it have the level of offensive prowess, reliability, and to a lesser extent a decent speed stat, that make Landorus-T and Mimikyu deserving of S rank as well. Its weaknesses are a little more exploitable than the S rank threats as well, so it still feels more suitable as an A+ threat at the current moment.

Moltres stays UR. This was a more interesting nomination to discuss than the others that aren't being given a full explanation, but ultimately we weren't fully convinced it needed to be ranked. In short, Moltres feels like a Pokemon that can certainly be put to effective use if only because Fire/Flying is a great offensive typing, but not much more than that. It is arguably comparable to a number of Pokemon in C rank, which if nothing else is indicative of the fact that it could definitely be justified, but Moltres doesn't feel like it makes any meaningful impact on the meta or otherwise lacks a distinct niche that's worth recommending over similar Fire-types. Z-Hurricane doesn't seem all that much different than Z-Brave Bird Talonflame which at least has conditional priority, and even that wasn't good enough. This is something that may be worth revisiting in the future but right now everyone is fairly neutral or unconvinced on Moltres being C rank.


That's about it for now, based on the fact that the meta seems to have mostly settled I don't expect this thread to get a ton of activity over the next several months, but feel free to discuss any possible changes or nominations as usual. Given the general activity of this thread it is possible that the next update may end up being the final one for Gen 7 unless activity picks up heavily (depends on when Gen 8 ends up coming out), but the meta is unlikely to see any huge meta shifts so don't feel obligated to force a discussion unless you feel a change is really worth discussing. That being said, if there are any VR placements that still really bug you then by all means, feel free to nominate or suggest changes!
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
Any chance we could get the vote counts and rationale for the previous votes. Otherwise, good stuff to the VR team!
 
I didn't nominate Moltres or really comment on it, but I am unsure that comparing to Talonflame is correct. Talonflame unlike Moltres is affected by intimidate, is a lot more squishy, a lot less powerful offensively and you want gale wings over flame body. Moltres can actually live super effective rock/water moves and can manipulate its type weaknesses more readily than talonflame.
 

cant say

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Any chance we could get the vote counts and rationale for the previous votes. Otherwise, good stuff to the VR team!
We were unanimous, the rationale is in Psynergy's post.

I didn't nominate Moltres or really comment on it, but I am unsure that comparing to Talonflame is correct. Talonflame unlike Moltres is affected by intimidate, is a lot more squishy, a lot less powerful offensively and you want gale wings over flame body. Moltres can actually live super effective rock/water moves and can manipulate its type weaknesses more readily than talonflame.
Well I mean they're both Fire/Flying types that like to use a Flying-type Z move. Maybe the comparison is a bit loose because Moltres' use is so niche to begin with that nothing really compares in the first place. As for a Fire-type Z move user it's heavily outclassed by Volcarona, which can also do the bulky Flame Body thing too. The only reason you'd opt for Moltres as far as I know is if you're weak to Blaziken.

I would argue that Flame Body Talonflame outclasses Moltres. Since being a Mimikyu check was raised in the original Moltres post we'll go with that for comparing them. Talonflame outspeed Mimi without investment which means you can go full 252/252 for max bulk, and still fire off Taunt/Wisp/Roost/kill move before getting hit. Moltres can only outspeed Adamant Mimi if running Timid itself, meaning it lacks out on bulk, and if you're going for bulk over speed then you risk losing to Never Ending Nightmare.

I just don't see any reason to run Moltres outside style points, or your weakness to Blaziken is so bad it can't be covered by something else (but trying to check that with something 4x weak to Stealth Rock is a mish anyway considering how common Blaziken + rocks user is). As someone who's used Pyroar a decent amount even I'm not convinced about Moltres.

I'm also not really comfortable having Moltres in the same tier as Vivillon, Eevee, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Aerodactyl, or any of the others really. I feel like it's strictly worse than all of them there.
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
Still strongly in favor of Aegislash to S. In the middle of yet another pre-test day for school, so I'll elaborate more on my nomination later in the week, but right now sets w/ ghostium Z shadow ball, toxic, king's shield, and any filler move are darn near impossible to stop. This mon is one of the best leads in the game, being OHKO'ed by almost nothing while being able to OHKO back, has king's shield to scout out sets (incredibly potent on choice locked mons such as thundy-T and lando-T), and toxic to cripple just about any mon that doesn't mind shadowball (snorlax, kanga, SpD hippo, P2, gyara).

Same with Vivillon to B-, this seems almost forgone at this point. Vivillon basically invalidates half the teams in our meta. Try using Greil's haunted tower against it, see how that goes (I've tried, and only won against Ika once by dodging 2 sleep powders and a hurricane). It basically requires Fini/Koko/Metagross to be on a team, which is incredibly restricting, and isn't even useless in the games where those 3 do feature.
 
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Well I mean they're both Fire/Flying types that like to use a Flying-type Z move. Maybe the comparison is a bit loose because Moltres' use is so niche to begin with that nothing really compares in the first place. As for a Fire-type Z move user it's heavily outclassed by Volcarona, which can also do the bulky Flame Body thing too. The only reason you'd opt for Moltres as far as I know is if you're weak to Blaziken.

I would argue that Flame Body Talonflame outclasses Moltres. Since being a Mimikyu check was raised in the original Moltres post we'll go with that for comparing them. Talonflame outspeed Mimi without investment which means you can go full 252/252 for max bulk, and still fire off Taunt/Wisp/Roost/kill move before getting hit. Moltres can only outspeed Adamant Mimi if running Timid itself, meaning it lacks out on bulk, and if you're going for bulk over speed then you risk losing to Never Ending Nightmare.

I just don't see any reason to run Moltres outside style points, or your weakness to Blaziken is so bad it can't be covered by something else (but trying to check that with something 4x weak to Stealth Rock is a mish anyway considering how common Blaziken + rocks user is). As someone who's used Pyroar a decent amount even I'm not convinced about Moltres.

I'm also not really comfortable having Moltres in the same tier as Vivillon, Eevee, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Aerodactyl, or any of the others really. I feel like it's strictly worse than all of them there.
Personally, I'm not sold on Moltres being in C tier for the same reasons that you put in your last sentence, though I don't think that Vivillon is a particularly good example of a C mon. That mon is a terror and should probably be B- in my opinion. Generally how I, at least nominate pokemon is that I look at the tier and think that this mon is better than most of the others in the tier therefore it should be there. Moltres in my mind is in the middle of C after using it extensively. To me at least that's not good enough at the low benchmark that C is to nom it.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure on your reasoning. Moltres can use Flame Charge to break mimikyu's disguise, meaning it always be faster no matter what speed investment and it always takes ghostium-z into sneak with ease meaning it could never lose to that set. In general, Moltres cannot lose to Ghostium-z unlike Talonflame or Volcarona because it has something that both severely lack: Natural bulk which comes into play outside of the mimikyu matchup. It does not need to hit a WoW to win the matchup or use WoW in its set. To compare defences, you are looking at a mon with 90/90/85 defences and saying that mons with 78/71/69 and 85/65/105 defences can take physical hits as well. It's a simple numbers game. Moltres naturally with no investment can take a max adamant mega salamence's double edge as well as defensive Landorus-T's Rock Tomb, a feat that Talonflame and Volcarona could only dream of. It doesn't need defence investment or a bulky berry, you can run a z-move and a full offensive set on it because unlike either of those mons Moltres is actually fat.

Mimikyu is only actually 1 example, Moltres can actually 1v1 Tapu Fini the majority of the time, even if it is waterium-z, something that neither talonflame nor Volcarona can do. This applies to other water types like Gyarados too. Id also say that z-hurricane is better than any equivalent that Volc or Talonflame can go for.

I dunno, I'd try out Moltres personally, there's good reason that you see it popping up more and more on top teams, not just that it is literally flames though that is also true.
 
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I didn't nominate Moltres or really comment on it, but I am unsure that comparing to Talonflame is correct. Talonflame unlike Moltres is affected by intimidate, is a lot more squishy, a lot less powerful offensively and you want gale wings over flame body. Moltres can actually live super effective rock/water moves and can manipulate its type weaknesses more readily than talonflame.
On the other hand, Moltres is reliant on an awful move that WILL cost you the game sooner or later, Tornadus-T can do exactly the same thing but adding Superpower, U-turn, Knock Off and Regenerator to the mix, and even Dragonite, wich really shouldn't be going with those offensive sets, can pull off this niche better, due to having the chance to fix the accuraccy via Rain Dance, outspeed the metagame with Agility, add extra coverage for Heatran/Tyranitar, or just use the vastly superior Z-Fly with Dragon Dance instead. And both get the benefit of not being immediately destroyed by Stealth Rock.

Moltres stays unranked, no questions asked.
 
On the other hand, Moltres is reliant on an awful move that WILL cost you the game sooner or later, Tornadus-T can do exactly the same thing but adding Superpower, U-turn, Knock Off and Regenerator to the mix, and even Dragonite, wich really shouldn't be going with those offensive sets, can pull off this niche better, due to having the chance to fix the accuraccy via Rain Dance, outspeed the metagame with Agility, add extra coverage for Heatran/Tyranitar, or just use the vastly superior Z-Fly with Dragon Dance instead. And both get the benefit of not being immediately destroyed by Stealth Rock.

Moltres stays unranked, no questions asked.
I would disagree with that assertion.

I would agree that Hurricane is not a great move, but Moltres is not reliant on it. In the average battle, you are most likely going to fire one or at most two off a game. Generally it's one of those that it sucks if it doesn't hit, but it isn't game ending like missing a toxic or a focus blast. Moltres is almost always running z-flying due to it's ability to nuke pretty much everything in the tier except steels and electrics which all die to burn up or fire blast except heatran. Tornadus-T does not resist Flare Blitz from Mega Blaziken, is less bulky in general, weaker offensively and cannot switch into Mimikyu-z or 1v1 Mimikyu. Rain dance is a terrible waste of a move slot on Tornadus-T as well though z-rain dance sounds kinda heat. Dragonite is almost always ran offensively and is something that gets Ohkoed by any ice move unless multiscale is up. Again Z-Fly is not better than Z-Hurricane for the specific reasons I state above (I.e. intimidate). I'd argue that though Dragonite loses less HP than Moltres with stealth rock, it is destroyed harder because Dragonite without Multiscale is dead whereas Moltres actually has a higher speed tier and can be useful or even roost back to full HP on a lot of the meta.

I do question to whether you know what you are talking about when you are writing off the underrated threat that is Moltres.
 
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chemcoop

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I think that Moltres is being pretty overhyped in this thread. It's a neat Mimikyu check in the same way that Pyroar is, but that's really about all it does. Looking at the calcs, it can beat something like Fini theoretically assuming that there are no rocks up and your opponent opts not to switch into common Pokémon like P2 or Heatran that really don't care about Moltres at all. So yeah I think Moltres can put in some work if your opponent doesn't have SR up (something that they will certainly go for if they see a Moltres on your team), or if your opponent is missing Top 20 in usage Pokémon like Sash/Scarf Offensive Lando-T, the omnipresent Greninja, Tapu Koko, bulkier M-Mence (yeah Moltres doesn't 1v1 that reliably), M-Gyarados, Heatran, P2, or even something like bulkier Lele. Heck, even mixed bulk Hippo can get up rocks on z-Moltres and phaze it out lol.

While a 4x SR weakness isn't necessarily a crippling problem (see Zard usage), it is an issue on something that doesn't have the sheer power and utility of Zard Y or Zard X. I think Moltres' SR weakness combined with its inability to really stop more than a small handful of common 'mons and getting obliterated by 3 of the top 10 Pokémon (possibly more depending on Rock Tomb Metagross, SpDef Hippo, SpDef Mega Mence, etc.) keep it from really being viable in the current meta. This is why we voted against ranking Moltres in the latest VR.

On a personal note, I find a lot of the arguments for Moltres being some sort of secret tour/Japanese sleeper pick to be pretty eh. In the tour replay that was shared, Moltres really didn't do a whole lot and the game was only won because of a non-SD M-Scizor (lol) and Mega Venu being fat. I also looked at Moltres usage stats and Nouthuca teams from recent seasons. Moltres usage has been steady from seasons 12-15 and consistently ranks around #122 or so each season. It also only shows up in 3 Nouthuca blogs from seasons 12-14, and all 3 of those teams look like 5 broken 'mons that would be fine on their own and a Moltres to fill some niche role. So I don't really buy the argument that Moltres is a 'mon that sees usage by elite players, sorry.
 
I would disagree with that assertion.
Illustrate me, please.

I would agree that Hurricane is not a great move, but Moltres is not reliant on it. In the average battle, you are most likely going to fire one or at most two off a game. Generally it's one of those that it sucks if it doesn't hit, but it isn't game ending like missing a toxic or a focus blast.
50% chance (two hits) of leaving a (insert dangerous pokemon here) to come in and start demolishing things it far too high. This move IS a Focus Blast-level trash move.
Moltres is almost always running z-flying due to it's ability to nuke pretty much everything in the tier except steels and electrics which all die to burn up or fire blast except heatran. Tornadus-T does not resist Flare Blitz from Mega Blaziken, is less bulky in general, weaker offensively and cannot switch into Mimikyu-z or 1v1 Mimikyu.
Neither does Moltres with SR up. High Jump Kick deals 40% on it's own and Mimykiu gets an easy kill by Shadow Claw+Shadow Sneak, even with investment. Not to mention Z-Hurricane is a one-time-move that can be easily baited due to Moltres being essentially forced to use it immediately, and Tyranitar and Heatran are increasingly common.
Rain dance is a terrible waste of a move slot on Tornadus-T as well though z-rain dance sounds kinda heat.
It was mentioned only on Dragonite for a reason. You'd better use Pelliper for Tornadus (and no, it can't apply to Moltres, you loose your precious fire move that is your only available coverage option).
Dragonite is almost always ran offensively and is something that gets Ohkoed by any ice move unless multiscale is up.
Not by good players. Good players either run him with defensive investment and Roost or run Salamence instead. Also, Moltres gets KOed by basically every relevant Water, Electric and Rock attack of every offensive pokemon you care to name.
Again Z-Fly is not better than Z-Hurricane for the specific reasons I state above (I.e. intimidate).
Dragon Dance on the switch=free speed boost without loosing attack. Not a big downside if you ask me.
I'd argue that though Dragonite loses less HP than Moltres with stealth rock, it is destroyed harder because Dragonite without Multiscale is dead whereas Moltres actually has a higher speed tier and can be useful or even roost back to full HP on a lot of the meta.
Dragonite also has Roost, has much better defensive typing and bulk, and much more reliable ways to threaten the opponent and get free turns.
I do question to whether you know what you are talking about when you are writing off the underrated threat that is Moltres.
I have the same question for you, mate.
 
I think that Moltres is being pretty overhyped in this thread. It's a neat Mimikyu check in the same way that Pyroar is, but that's really about all it does. Looking at the calcs, it can beat something like Fini theoretically assuming that there are no rocks up and your opponent opts not to switch into common Pokémon like P2 or Heatran that really don't care about Moltres at all. So yeah I think Moltres can put in some work if your opponent doesn't have SR up (something that they will certainly go for if they see a Moltres on your team), or if your opponent is missing Top 20 in usage Pokémon like Sash/Scarf Offensive Lando-T, the omnipresent Greninja, Tapu Koko, bulkier M-Mence (yeah Moltres doesn't 1v1 that reliably), M-Gyarados, Heatran, P2, or even something like bulkier Lele. Heck, even mixed bulk Hippo can get up rocks on z-Moltres and phaze it out lol.

While a 4x SR weakness isn't necessarily a crippling problem (see Zard usage), it is an issue on something that doesn't have the sheer power and utility of Zard Y or Zard X. I think Moltres' SR weakness combined with its inability to really stop more than a small handful of common 'mons and getting obliterated by 3 of the top 10 Pokémon (possibly more depending on Rock Tomb Metagross, SpDef Hippo, SpDef Mega Mence, etc.) keep it from really being viable in the current meta. This is why we voted against ranking Moltres in the latest VR.

On a personal note, I find a lot of the arguments for Moltres being some sort of secret tour/Japanese sleeper pick to be pretty eh. In the tour replay that was shared, Moltres really didn't do a whole lot and the game was only won because of a non-SD M-Scizor (lol) and Mega Venu being fat. I also looked at Moltres usage stats and Nouthuca teams from recent seasons. Moltres usage has been steady from seasons 12-15 and consistently ranks around #122 or so each season. It also only shows up in 3 Nouthuca blogs from seasons 12-14, and all 3 of those teams look like 5 broken 'mons that would be fine on their own and a Moltres to fill some niche role. So I don't really buy the argument that Moltres is a 'mon that sees usage by elite players, sorry.
I find this logic to be a bit faulty. It is basically saying X is good so long as they do not switch into Y and in which case Y is useless. Does Volcarona become useless because they switch into heatran? Does Kommo-o suddenly become useless because they have a fairy type? I'm not sure that this is a good way of looking at the game, since you can plan macro game plans that revolve around chip or exploiting pokemon are typically checks. That afterall is the point of many strong compositions such as Lele Zard. You can also mention all of those pokemon you put above for Charizard Y, yet Charizard Y is perceived as A+ and fantastic in the current metagame and takes up a mega slot.

Moltres only needs three moves really, Hurricane, Burn Up and Flame Charge (and tbh you don't need flame charge), which means there is a lot of room for customisation. Moltres can far easier run HP Ground as a coverage move than Volcarona (70% Hidden Power usage in S15) which bops heatran. Mixed bulk hippo can get rocks up on Moltres and phase it out? Burn up into z-hurricane is always a 2hko on any variant of hippo without proccing 50% berry, sitrus berry unless you are max hp max spdef with a boosting nature will mean you won't have enough hp. It is sweeping statements like this without doing the neccessary research that hurt Moltres. Pretty much of the pokemon you mentioned, only porygon2 and heatran you would ever likely switch into Moltres without making some significant prediction and these are metagame walls that switch into a lot of things which is why you have specific ways to deal with them on your team.

I wasn't using tour evidence specifically to show the power of Moltres because I don't think there is enough sample size there. It was more an interesting aside to show the mechanics of Burn Up to a wider audience. I could have easily mentioned that I've gotten to top 50 on the showdown ladder with a Moltres team, though I could say the same with that Mega Steelix and Mantine team which I got to 1600 with so I don't see it necessarily as an argument of their viability though I think both could be in that region too. I understand you are thinking, well there's only been three top Moltres teams in the last three seasons therefore it shouldn't be C, yet a lot of Mons currently in C are like that. Lets use the pokemon that Cant Say used as an example (Eevee, Mega Aerodactyl, Vivillon and Mega Gardevoir). In the same time frame, there is 1 mega aero team, 3 mega gardevoir teams, no Eevee teams and 10 vivillon teams because Vivillon as I have mentioned before is in no way a C mon. Moltres fits perfectly within that category. Similar can be said for usage stats, Moltres is used more than Shuckle, Wobuffett, Blacephalon, Buzzwole, Golisopod and Rhyperior who are all ranked. I guess you can argue the category is too broad, but my job isn't to set the boundaries of the category, only to debate pokemon that could fit in the box.

Overall, I think a lot of people arguing against Moltres are mistaking something. I'm not out here arguing that Moltres is as good as Charizard Y or Volcarona, it isn't. Yet a lot of people seem to be rebutting as if 1 Trick Phony and myself are trying to argue that. C Tier is for pokemon that are held back by flaws but who have a niche in the tier, basically having Moltres to fill some niche role. That's about it really.

Illustrate me, please.


50% chance (two hits) of leaving a (insert dangerous pokemon here) to come in and start demolishing things it far too high. This move IS a Focus Blast-level trash move.

Neither does Moltres with SR up. High Jump Kick deals 40% on it's own and Mimykiu gets an easy kill by Shadow Claw+Shadow Sneak, even with investment. Not to mention Z-Hurricane is a one-time-move that can be easily baited due to Moltres being essentially forced to use it immediately, and Tyranitar and Heatran are increasingly common.

It was mentioned only on Dragonite for a reason. You'd better use Pelliper for Tornadus (and no, it can't apply to Moltres, you loose your precious fire move that is your only available coverage option).

Not by good players. Good players either run him with defensive investment and Roost or run Salamence instead. Also, Moltres gets KOed by basically every relevant Water, Electric and Rock attack of every offensive pokemon you care to name.

Dragon Dance on the switch=free speed boost without loosing attack. Not a big downside if you ask me.

Dragonite also has Roost, has much better defensive typing and bulk, and much more reliable ways to threaten the opponent and get free turns.

I have the same question for you, mate.
Again, if you had read my post above, you would understand why hurricane being inaccurate is, whilst annoying, not as huge a problem as you believe it to be. Due to the way that z-moves work being 100% accurate, Moltres is always guaranteed to get a strong hit off that. There are many examples of worse moves being used in this regard, just look at z-hyper beam volcarona or z-giga impact kartana. Unlike those moves, you can actually justify firing off a hurricane most of the time outside of a one time nuke and it comes with a juicy confuse chance. Essentially, you are arguing against Hurricane because of it's accuracy by comparing it to Focus Blast, which whilst it has it's flaws is a move used regularly by Lele, Gengar, Thundurus and Lucario to give four common pokemon, with or without the z-move.

Stealth Rock is a momentum draining move and you can play around to the point where you either don't let your opponent get up rocks or you sacrifice so much getting them up that it isn't worth it. A lot of Charizard/Volcarona teams work that way or are you arguing that these mons are not good because of their weakness. I go over Heatran specifically and the general idea of just because X is a check does not mean that Y is bad. I guess I was making that argument a few months ago with Nihilego which has tons of checks, but that was moving an A- pokemon down. Again, we are talking about C tier here.

I'm not sure Moltres Rain has ever been explored, 100% accurate hurricanes with Z-solar beam to bait in water types that wall swampert's rain boosted waterfall and eliminate them actually sounds kinda cool though, hidden power ice/ground, momentum with u-turn into a rain sweeper. A mon that beats Ferrothorn and Kartana as well even through the rain. You've given me an idea I'll have to test out one day. Same with the idea of a Moltres having type weaknesses (which it can even mitigate thanks to burn up and roost), I've covered this all before.

Offensive Dragonite not used by good players? The vast majority of Dragonite spreads statistically are either max attack or max special attack often with a boosting nature. This is echoed on all levels of play, including Nouthuca teams where 6/7 of the top dragonite teams in the last three seasons use one or the other. Not to say a defensive Dragonite doesn't exist, but it's less common. 42% of Dragonite spreads alone are Max attack/special attack Max speed according to https://boe2.github.io/bsus.html on high level showdown with another 36% of spreads also being max attack/special attack with just some hp investment over speed which leaves room for 28% defensive spreads yet half of these are classed as other which could be different offensive spreads.


To be honest, Moltres's detractors argue more for Moltres than I ever could. The more I research into the options and potential this majestic bird has, the more I believe it deserves the place it rightfully deserves in our metagame. It has lost the beauty contest to Articuno, been overlooked in favour of Zapdos competitively but it is fighting back. First in USUM OU where it has finally been placed on the C rank where it belongs and now here in BSS.
 
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Again, if you had read my post above, you would understand why hurricane being inaccurate is, whilst annoying, not as huge a problem as you believe it to be. Due to the way that z-moves work being 100% accurate, Moltres is always guaranteed to get a strong hit off that. There are many examples of worse moves being used in this regard, just look at z-hyper beam volcarona or z-giga impact kartana. Unlike those moves, you can actually justify firing off a hurricane most of the time outside of a one time nuke and it comes with a juicy confuse chance. Essentially, you are arguing against Hurricane because of it's accuracy by comparing it to Focus Blast, which whilst it has it's flaws is a move used regularly by Lele, Gengar, Thundurus and Lucario to give four common pokemon, with or without the z-move.
I personally consider all those moves to be completely horrible:

As for the Hyper Beam clones, I have NEVER EVER seen them used effectively (altough my Dragonite eating those two pokemon for breakfast, Z-move or not, addmitedly has a bit to do with it), and they are NOT justified in the slightest. They don't cover anything their main moves don't already cover, and limit their long-term coverage. The closest to them being useful is whenever I happen to bring my Ditto against them, in wich case they indeed are great options to have as they will get a lot of free turns every time I am forced to fire one.

Focus Blast is a piece of crap that nobody in his right mind and a neuron count reaching the triple digits would use, especially on Lucario where Aura Sphere is available. The problem is, on the ladder 99% of players don't qualify, and the usage stats reflect it. I'll discuss it below. I'll just say, Focus Miss never reaches above 25% usage on half of the mentioned pokemon, and the remaing ones are Lucario with a 38%, ironically the one that DEFINITELY shouldn't use it, and Thundurus that barely reaches 33%, and half those times with a Z-crystal exclusively to hit Tyranitar, that otherwise destroys him.

Stealth Rock is a momentum draining move and you can play around to the point where you either don't let your opponent get up rocks or you sacrifice so much getting them up that it isn't worth it. A lot of Charizard/Volcarona teams work that way or are you arguing that these mons are not good because of their weakness. I go over Heatran specifically and the general idea of just because X is a check does not mean that Y is bad. I guess I was making that argument a few months ago with Nihilego which has tons of checks, but that was moving an A- pokemon down. Again, we are talking about C tier here.
If X is a common sight of teams, having a pokemon weak to it is asking for trouble. And, forgive me everyone, I forgot about the BIGGEST counter to Moltres, Rotom-H, wich lately has been increasing in popularity due to being able to effectively respond to the three most common megas in the tier. As for Zard and Volc, I prefer not to go too deep into it, because I can't really discuss them objectively. My main wincon hard-counters them, my cleric can indefinitely stall them, my utility pokemon shuts them down with ease, and I have SR support, so 99% of the time my opponents don't even bother bringing them to battle, and the remaining 1% they get used set-up fodder.

I'm not sure Moltres Rain has ever been explored, 100% accurate hurricanes with Z-solar beam to bait in water types that wall swampert's rain boosted waterfall and eliminate them actually sounds kinda cool though, hidden power ice/ground, momentum with u-turn into a rain sweeper. A mon that beats Ferrothorn and Kartana as well even through the rain. You've given me an idea I'll have to test out one day. Same with the idea of a Moltres having type weaknesses (which it can even mitigate thanks to burn up and roost), I've covered this all before.
It WAS deeply explored, back in BW and XY. The result was "Just use Volcarona or Dragonite instead". The same applies there, nothing has changed.
Offensive Dragonite not used by good players? The vast majority of Dragonite spreads statistically are either max attack or max special attack often with a boosting nature. This is echoed on all levels of play, including Nouthuca teams where 6/7 of the top dragonite teams in the last three seasons use one or the other. Not to say a defensive Dragonite doesn't exist, but it's less common. 42% of Dragonite spreads alone are Max attack/special attack Max speed according to https://boe2.github.io/bsus.html on high level showdown with another 36% of spreads also being max attack/special attack with just some hp investment over speed which leaves room for 28% defensive spreads yet half of these are classed as other which could be different offensive spreads.
Those usage stats I prefer not to watch them, as they have a tendency to give me deep depression every single time:
I won't go to deep, but my "favorite" ones are the 1% of Gliscor, Landorus and Mamoswine without EQ, the 25% of Porygons without Recover, the significant chunk of Salamence and Heatran without Aerilate-boosted/Fire moves (the combined usage never reaches above 90%, and that ignores the guys that use two moves and thus i am counting twice), and the 20% of Ferrothorn without Leech Seed. I'd rather see stats of the users that WIN instead of the ones that PLAY.

To be honest, Moltres's detractors argue more for Moltres than I ever could. The more I research into the options and potential this majestic bird has, the more I believe it deserves the place it rightfully deserves in our metagame. It has lost the beauty contest to Articuno, been overlooked in favour of Zapdos competitively but it is fighting back. First in USUM OU where it has finally been placed on the C rank where it belongs and now here in BSS.
It got placed in C in USUM OU? Good lord, I'll have to come to that discussion too and set things in order. IT is clear that a lot of S* has happened while I was out.

EDIT: On second tought, I pass. That VR is WAY too corrupted for me to even bother. Magnezone on A and Dragonite on C-, dear Arceus
 
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I personally consider all those moves to be completely horrible:

As for the Hyper Beam clones, I have NEVER EVER seen them used effectively (altough my Dragonite eating those two pokemon for breakfast, Z-move or not, addmitedly has a bit to do with it), and they are NOT justified in the slightest. They don't cover anything their main moves don't already cover, and limit their long-term coverage. The closest to them being useful is whenever I happen to bring my Ditto against them, in wich case they indeed are great options to have as they will get a lot of free turns every time I am forced to fire one.

Focus Blast is a piece of crap that nobody in his right mind and a neuron count reaching the triple digits would use, especially on Lucario where Aura Sphere is available. The problem is, on the ladder 99% of players don't qualify, and the usage stats reflect it. I'll discuss it below. I'll just say, Focus Miss never reaches above 25% usage on half of the mentioned pokemon, and the remaing ones are Lucario with a 38%, ironically the one that DEFINITELY shouldn't use it, and Thundurus that barely reaches 33%, and half those times with a Z-crystal exclusively to hit Tyranitar, that otherwise destroys him.



If X is a common sight of teams, having a pokemon weak to it is asking for trouble. And, forgive me everyone, I forgot about the BIGGEST counter to Moltres, Rotom-H, wich lately has been increasing in popularity due to being able to effectively respond to the three most common megas in the tier. As for Zard and Volc, I prefer not to go too deep into it, because I can't really discuss them objectively. My main wincon hard-counters them, my cleric can indefinitely stall them, my utility pokemon shuts them down with ease, and I have SR support, so 99% of the time my opponents don't even bother bringing them to battle, and the remaining 1% they get used set-up fodder.


It WAS deeply explored, back in BW and XY. The result was "Just use Volcarona or Dragonite instead". The same applies there, nothing has changed.


Those usage stats I prefer not to watch them, as they have a tendency to give me deep depression every single time:
I won't go to deep, but my "favorite" ones are the 1% of Gliscor, Landorus and Mamoswine without EQ, the 25% of Porygons without Recover, the significant chunk of Salamence and Heatran without Aerilate-boosted/Fire moves (the combined usage never reaches above 90%, and that ignores the guys that use two moves and thus i am counting twice), and the 20% of Ferrothorn without Leech Seed. I'd rather see stats of the users that WIN instead of the ones that PLAY.


It got placed in C in USUM OU? Good lord, I'll have to come to that discussion too and set things in order. IT is clear that a lot of S* has happened while I was out.

EDIT: On second tought, I pass. That VR is WAY too corrupted for me to even bother. Magnezone on A and Dragonite on C-, dear Arceus
See it is comments like this that make me question your knowledge of the meta. A lot of what you are saying if I was being honest, it seems like it is coming from thin air or perhaps you just don't know which is fair enough.

Take for example Normalium-Z Kartana, which is something commonly used on teams to bait in and break through threats like Charizard. This is especially prominent in rain archetypes. The 15th ranked team this season has a Normalium-Z Kartana and it is probably the most common set after scarf. You can see Normalium-Z volcaronas too, though less commonly and it serves a similar purpose. An example of this is below:

https://pokepast.es/be6e7e7d27f0d90e

This team has a Mega Gengar using (shock horror) Focus Blast, a C tier mon and a Normalium-Z Volcarona and yet managed to finish rank 1 on the Cart Ladder in Season 12. I guess having a low neuron count isn't as bad as previously thought. People use focus blast on lucario and other mons specifically because it has a use within the meta (focus blast > Aura Sphere on Luc). Most of these pokemon are pretty versatile so don't need to run focus blast but they do derive benefits from the move itself. This isn't just low ladder play, this resonates at the top level of play where people do use these inaccurate moves because the benefits outweigh the detractions.

Rotom-H is good vs. Moltres, but it's always been pretty popular.

BW/XY Battlespot was a very different place and it's very hard to find out any information about it and whether Moltres was tested there. I doubt you have really looked into the GBU metagame when you don't even know about Trick Room Porygon2 or Banded Ferrothorn which explain away most of the non-insignificant oddities you've mentioned. To use someone from our own community, a lot of 11oyd's cart success and his qualification in second place on the Cart Ladder for 2018 came from using a Trick Room team with a P2 with no recover.

Moltres has a niche on Stall in USUM OU, ironically given that you have said heatran always counters it, Moltres is used in USUM specifically to check and pp stall out heatran's magma storms in the 1v1 which can otherwise be problematic for stall archetypes alongside a few other things.
 
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See it is comments like this that make me question your knowledge of the meta. A lot of what you are saying if I was being honest, it seems like it is coming from thin air or perhaps you just don't know which is fair enough.

Take for example Normalium-Z Kartana, which is something commonly used on teams to bait in and break through threats like Charizard. This is especially prominent in rain archetypes. The 15th ranked team this season has a Normalium-Z Kartana and it is probably the most common set after scarf. You can see Normalium-Z volcaronas too, though less commonly and it serves a similar purpose. An example of this is below:

https://pokepast.es/be6e7e7d27f0d90e
Not really worth it on either of them

252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Black Hole Eclipse (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 107-126 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 93-109 (60.7 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 77-91 (50.3 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 177-209 (115.6 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With a SD on the switch, even Knock Off can get the KO. It MIGHT help in a 1v1 scenario, but I don't buy it. What's more, you can get a functional equivalent of the move without loosing the chance to use a Z-move somewhere else by using a Belue or Charty Berry and Natural Gift. You even get a technically better chance to break through Heatran and Salamence due to how damage is rounded. Assuming Rock type:

+2 252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Natural Gift vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 139-164 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 138-163 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Natural Gift vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 118-140 (69 - 81.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 117-138 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You can even swap the nature to Naive (you will die to specials attacks regardless) and use a Wiki Berry instead for extra utility outside having that one-time anti-Zard nuke, mostly in being able to take on Metagross and Tapu Fini more consistently, altough it will notably deal less damage to Salamence.

252 Atk Beast Boost Kartana Natural Gift vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 94-112 (54.9 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


As for Volcarona:

252 SpA Flame Body Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard in Sun: 139-164 (90.8 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Flame Body Volcarona Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 134-158 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Not even worth discussing. Fire Blast does more damage thanks to Zard's sun. Even if you don't want a Firium-Z, there are coverage options that also kill after a single Satk boost and have other situational uses, with Psychic and Hurricane being the most obvious:
+1 252 SpA Flame Body Volcarona Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 175-207 (114.3 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (toxapex+rotom-H)
+1 252 SpA Flame Body Volcarona Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 186-219 (121.5 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (anti-rain)

(Good lord, I actually researched and recommended Natural Gift and Hurricane, what has this thread and this game come to)

This team has a Mega Gengar using (shock horror) Focus Blast, a C tier mon and a Normalium-Z Volcarona and yet managed to finish rank 1 on the Cart Ladder in Season 12. I guess having a low neuron count isn't as bad as previously thought. People use focus blast on lucario and other mons specifically because it has a use within the meta (focus blast > Aura Sphere on Luc). Most of these pokemon are pretty versatile so don't need to run focus blast but they do derive benefits from the move itself. This isn't just low ladder play, this resonates at the top level of play where people do use these inaccurate moves because the benefits outweigh the detractions.
If you are good enough and face incompetent enough opponents, you can win with an Unown mate. And I am willing to bet Vivillion, Gengar and Mimikyu did most of the job laddering up. And I also bet that you only used Focus Blast in 1/15 matches (only counting ones that Gengar actively contributed in). Inacurate moves can and will betray the user sooner or later, they can help on the start but you will never be able to stay on the top with them for hopefully obvious reasons.

Rotom-H is good vs. Moltres, but it's always been pretty popular.

BW/XY Battlespot was a very different place and it's very hard to find out any information about it and whether Moltres was tested there. I doubt you have really looked into the GBU metagame when you don't even know about Trick Room Porygon2 or Banded Ferrothorn which explain away most of the non-insignificant oddities you've mentioned. To use someone from our own community, a lot of 11oyd's cart success and his qualification in second place on the Cart Ladder for 2018 came from using a Trick Room team with a P2 with no recover.
I've never wanted to dwelve nor care about past gens. I only mentioned them at all because you commented Snorlax used to be bad, and he never was.

Moltres has a niche on Stall in USUM OU, ironically given that you have said heatran always counters it, Moltres is used in USUM specifically to check and pp stall out heatran's magma storms in the 1v1 which can otherwise be problematic for stall archetypes alongside a few other things.
No decent player will EVER spam Magma Storm against Moltres, they will just keep switching in and out, taunting him if necessary, taking advantage of his pathetic moveset that doesn't even have Toxic to prevent dragons, keldeo, tapu fini, suicune, or Marowak from coming in for free. I've seen that (CENSORED) stall team dozens of times, and I can tell you, they never survive more than 50 turns before eating a 6-0.
 
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