Buff Process 2 - Stage 4 - Buff Package Poll 1

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quziel

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And now it's time for the polls on our first buffing process. Here's the reasoning for every option on this slate according to Lasen, our update leader:
  • Spoo's Grassy Surge makes it a heavy hitter- literally. It's definitely on the stronger side of things considering how much Attack it gains, but the counterplay both defensively and offensively is there through recoil and/or revenge killing it with any faster threat (something like Balloon Heatran outspeeds while Lando-T can creep for it). Slack Off + terrain keeps it healthy with ease but if Grassy Terrain runs out it's not as strong as some other BuffedRoaks.
  • Snake has a very clear and strong Contrary mid-game breaker into what could become a sweeper; the removal of Leaf Storm makes sure that Grass-types like Arghonaut and to an extent Slowking can effectively check it. It also turns Astrolotl and (sometimes) Dragapult into a favorable match-up. This gives Pyroak a very strong direction without becoming overbearing.
  • Dex submitted a change built around Magic Guard, removing 2 of Pyroak's biggest weaknesses: Stealth Rock and Toxic. As such, it's either a Life Orb attacker similar to Krill but even more utility packed in, or just a good Utility mon that beats Heatran consistently. It's not as aimed as some of the other buffs in here but it still hits all the benchmarks we wish it to, especially so with more reliable recovery with Slack Off.
  • Darek submitted Grass-type Volcanion. Yep. Another immunity through Flash Fire is very much welcome and the great firepower makes it a slow and targetted tank. If Volcanion can work in OU with a supersoaker Scald, then surely Pyroak can serve a similar role without a move as insane as Steam Eruption while carving its own niche.
  • kjnjkmjk1 actually submitted two things and they both made the slate for different reasons: The contrary submission keeps Leaf Storm as part of Pyroak's movepool but removing all special Ground-type coverage, making Pyroak have to pick between utility of Stealth Rock/Aroma/Toxic and hitting Heatran + Astrolotl with Earthquake. With less overall bulk, this version of Pyroak is pressured more easily but also provides a lot more pressure with its STABs. Keeps the ideology of being a somewhat slow tank.
  • Flower Veil Roak is a unique Calm Mind user which not only ignores most status but also can't get its defenses dropped by Fire Lash and Shadow Ball. With proper prediction, the Flying-types that already switch into Pyroak can take it down but a carefully played Pyroak can definitely do a ton of damage while safely switch into the likes of Landorus-T and certain Astrolotl. The direction this takes us in is both unique and in line with what Pyroak can achieve.
  • Literally a last minute edit, BALLSMASHER adds a very unique Defiant submission but don't let it fool you, this very likely will be a Rock Head set which beats everything not named Tornadus-T. I believe this is the best Dragon Dance submission even if it's really well hidden, as it doesn't overly buff Pyroak but still allows it to blow things up and the option to explode certain Defoggers such as Landorus-T and Zapdos is very, very compelling. No bulk changes means that Tornadus-T is still a big STOP sign without compromising its viability.

We surging boys

Final submission
Grassy Surge > White Smoke
Weight = 300kg
+40 Atk, -30 SpA
+5 Spe
+Slack Off
-Dragon Dance


New stat spread:
120 70 105 95 90 60 (540) -> 120 110 105 65 90 65 (555)

110 Attack:
+2 HHP into +0 HHP always takes out Toxapex from full health with terrain recovery

Weight = 300kg
Heat Crash hits 100BP against Corv, Torn, and Lando, 120BP against Zapdos and Venomicon

65 Speed:
Gets the jump on Venomicon, & 252 Speed outspeeds 0 Speed Landorus-T but Lando can run a small amount of investment to creep. I appreciate the dynamic of beating Lando by default but letting it pick whether or not it wants to make a small sacrifice in bulk in order to outspeed. It also requires Heatran to run significant investment to outspeed, which defensive sets will likely never do (offensive Air Balloon still outruns).

Slack Off:
This is admittedly my bias showing, and is more of a QoL change than anything. Still, it technically enables bulkier SD/utility sets as a possibility, which is sorta cool since none of our current GSurge users have great longevity. It also helps future-proof the mon a tad if its niche ever changes and it starts needing to rely on 50% recovery, aka it does more to make sure we won't need to be buffed again.

Edit: -Dragon Dance:
While I'm skeptical of how likely it is that we'd run DD over SD, I don't believe this buff package needs that flexibility regardless, especially since we outspeed Tornadus-T at +1. SD is more than enough for our needs here.
Final Submission

+ Contrary
+ Slack Off
- White Smoke
- Leaf Storm


Contrary has seemed decently popular in the thread, and it's by far my favorite ability for Pyroak to leverage (with physical Grassy Surge in second place). Contrary allows Pyroak to play as an offensive tank and doesn't also require drastic stat changes to Pyroak's current stat line. Because Leaf Storm was added in Gen 8 per this thread, it is removed alongside Contrary so that Pyroak only has access to Contrary + Overheat as its main attacking combo. With Contrary + Overheat, Pyroak force switches and utilize the coverage and utility it already has. Additionally, it comes with two defensive merits: turning the tables on Astrolotl's Fire Lash and potentially Dragapult's Shadow Ball. Slack Off allows Pyroak to avoid relying on the thoroughly underwhelming Synthesis. Spoo made a good point in the Discord that while Synthesis would limit Pyroak's longevity, it wouldn't make Pyroak's peak cases and worse, just less consistent. I agree that Slack Off just allows Pyroak to act a bit more consistently.

Here's a sample set I see it running:

Pyroak @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 196 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Earth Power
- Giga Drain / Toxic / Stealth Rock / Aromatherapy
- Slack Off

Overheat allows Pyroak to boost its Special Attack, which means that Earth Power and Giga Drain are suddenly a lot more offensively threatening. Fire / Grass / Ground is nearly perfect coverage, allowing Pyroak to strike Heatran and Astrolotl and heal back with boosted Giga Drain as necessary. Alternatively, Toxic, Stealth Rock, or Aromatherapy could be used, as Fire + Ground coverage is very serviceable on its own. The EVs outspeed Corviknight, the bulk tanks Choice Band Urshifu-R's Close Combat after Stealth Rock Damage and comfortably tanks any move that Melmetal throws at it. I think heavy Special Attack EV investment is necessary because Pyroak needs to hit decently hard at +0.

While Contrary is a strong ability, this buffed Pyroak is not without fault. Although it can very easily boost to +2, it's still Pyroak until it actually gets the Overheat off. This means that it's still very vulnerable to Toxic, Knock Off, and the plethora of Flying-types present in the metagame. Additionally, without any kind of speed buff, Pyroak is still very slow. For example, Pyroak could outspeed uninvested Landorus-T by running max speed Modest, but all Landorus-T has to do is add a couple EVs in Speed to avoid that.

I am considering a minor Speed buff (somewhere around +5 or maybe +10). I haven't decided if this is truly necessary, though.

Overall, I like the simplicity of this buff. Change its Hidden Ability and remove an attack that was added this gen. and add a better recovery move that nearly everyone agrees that it should have.

EDIT: saw some concerns for Slack Off over Synthesis being too powerful, so I'm removing it for now.


EDIT 2: Nah Slack Off is just more consistent than Synthesis.
Final Submission

+Magic Guard
-Rock Head
+Slack Off
+10 Spe
-10 SpD
-Amnesia


Magic Guard allows Pyroak to inhabit one of two roles: Life Orb attacker or Bulky Utility. Magic Guard in general makes Pyroak an incredibly sturdy check to Heatran, making it the best Toxic-immune check to the mon. This allows it to be quite easy to place on a team. With regards to the former role, Magic Guard allows Pyroak to fire off powerful Life Orb boosted Lava Plumes, which in conjunction with Toxic and Leech Seed, makes Pyroak a dangerous user of residual damage. In the latter role, Magic Guard allows Pyroak to easily switch in without fear of Knock Off or Toxic from defensive Pokemon like Toxapex and Ferrothorn, easily forcing both out with Leech Seed and Lava Plume. It also beats common defoggers like Landorus-T and Corviknight, Magic Guard being particularly helpful against the former. The additional Speed allows Pyroak to outspeed Corviknight without investment, not allowing it to U-turn on it. The addition of Slack Off helps further improve Magic Guard Roak's already good longevity. The reduction in SpD and the removal of Amnesia makes Hurricane users like Tornadus and Zapdos sturdy checks to it.
Final Submission
+ 35 SpA
+ 10 Spe
- Rock Head
+ Flash Fire
+ Slack Off


Grass Volcanion
Buff Idea 1:
+Contrary, -White Smoke
-Earth Power, -Scorching Sands
+10 Spe


EDIT: Eased up the stat nerf after some feedback, by removing the -10 SpA and -10 SpD nerfs and adding back 5 HP on the HP nerf.
EDIT 2: Due to continued feedback on the buff potentially undershooting, removed the HP nerf.

This is a very different take on the Contrary buff. This one allows Pyroak to keep both Overheat and Leaf Storm, which gives it a very large amount of boosting and extremely high power potential. In exchange, I've substantially docked its bulk, particularly on the special side, in order to make it easier to revenge kill. I've also removed its special Ground coverage, which forces it to decide between running Earthquake and being walled by Heatran. The Speed boost is just there to give it a more workable speed tier that allows it to naturally outspeed Corviknight.

Possible changes: the stat numbers are very open to adjustment. Also open to removing Earthquake. However, I'm fairly set on removing special Ground coverage to keep it from being completely unwallable.

For reference, its stats now look like this:
120/70/105/95/90/70

An example set might look like this (stolen from snake_rattler with the appropriate adjustments):
Pyroak @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 212 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Leaf Storm
- Earthquake / Toxic / Stealth Rock / Aromatherapy
- Synthesis

44 Spe EVs allows it to outspeed Arghonaut. You have the mandatory combination of Overheat and Leaf Storm, alongside Synthesis for recovery. Earthquake allows Pyroak to hit Heatran and Astrolotl, although at a reduced level due to the lack of investment and Pyroak's low Attack. The other slashes are various utility moves that can be used to take advantage of the switches Pyroak can force. Toxic and Stealth Rock are both fairly explanatory, but Aromatherapy both helps Pyroak with its own issues with Toxic and allows it to serve as a cleric in a meta with very few clerics.

Note that on neutral targets, Overheat and Leaf Storm are identical.

+2 212 SpA Pyroak Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Arghonaut: 330-390 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Arghonaut: 82-97 (19.8 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

212 SpA Pyroak Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 199-235 (52 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 397-468 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 105-123 (33.1 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 209-246 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

212 SpA Pyroak Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 60-72 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 121-144 (33.4 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 241-285 (66.5 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212 SpA Pyroak Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 120-142 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

0- Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 184-220 (47.6 - 56.9%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Astrolotl: 138-164 (38.6 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Astrolotl: 124-148 (34.7 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Buff Idea 2:
+Flower Veil, -White Smoke
+Calm Mind


EDIT: Removed Slack Off due to concerns about stalling out Hurricanes.

Flower Veil is a good ability that only works with Grass-types, and is currently stuck on a non-Grass type. Now that this buff attaches it to a Grass-type, it provides Pyroak with useful benefits, such as the ability to absorb status (namely Toxic) and ignore stat drops (such as from Fire Lash Astrolotl and Shadow Ball Dragapult). Both of these traits lend themselves to defensive boosting, which is why Calm Mind is added to give Pyroak some offensive presence. Slack Off is added to give reliable healing.

Possible changes: for more offensive presence, I might consider switching to Nasty Plot instead, allowing it to fulfill a similar role to how Venonicom-Prologue currently works. I am also open to adding in a Special Attack boost to give Pyroak better initial firepower. Immunity could work as an alternative that just provides the Toxic immunity, although it is difficult to argue past Flower Veil's additional defensive qualities.


Example set probably looks like this:
Pyroak @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Lava Plume
- Earth Power
- Synthesis / Giga Drain

60 Speed EVs outspeed Corviknight, the rest is dumped into HP and Defense. This is a fairly basic setup with Calm Mind as the setup move, alongside Fire and Ground coverage. I set Flamethrower as the first slash for Fire STAB due to its reliability, but one could also go with Fire Blast for more power or Lava Plume for the burn chance. Earth Power is very useful for dealing with defensive Pokemon like Heatran and Toxapex that would otherwise get in the way of a sweep. Synthesis is the reliable recovery of choice, although one might opt to run Giga Drain instead to hit Arghonaut and get healing that way.

0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 282-332 (63.5 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 186-222 (41.8 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 140-168 (31.5 - 37.8%) -- 89% chance to 3HKO
Can outtank 0 SpA Tornadus-T at +1 into +2.

56+ SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 360-426 (81 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56+ SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 240-284 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56+ SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 182-216 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Unlikely to survive two Zapdos Hurricanes unless already starting at +2 or higher.

0 SpA Pyroak Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 92-110 (30.2 - 36.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Pyroak Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Pyroak Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 182-216 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Toxapex can come in and Haze away the boosts at +1, but it becomes more difficult with Earth Power at +2 or higher.

80 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 248-294 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 168-198 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
80 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 126-150 (28.3 - 33.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
Pyroak can eventually outtank Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb, but it does fairly pitiful damage back:
+2 0 SpA Pyroak Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- 44.9% chance to 3HKO
final sub

+Defiant
-White Smoke
+35 attack
-25 spattack
+10 speed


goal here is to make oak playable while keeping as many of its existing tools as possible (ie trying to avoid drastic defense cuts, removing moves, etc). right now its main strengths are great natural bulk and fire/grass/ground coverage so i'm trying to lean into that

swapping attack and special attack for defiant, then adding +10 more attack since 105 looks a lot bigger than 95. this also helps you use rockhead better if you're into that sort of thing.

defiant makes you a rocker that can fuck up defoggers which is kinda sick. calcs below assume 105 base attack, 252 HP and attack ev's, and adamant nature

Astro cant touch you and if you come in when it clicks lash or defog +2 EQ oneshots with attack invest.
252+ Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Astrolotl: 264-312 (72.1 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Astrolotl: 528-622 (144.2 - 169.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO



lando cant switch in either cause it gets chunked at +1 and ur fat as fuck so u live 2 eq from 0 invest lando at full
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 304-358 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pyroak: 144-169 (32.4 - 38%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO


torn still kills you to death no matter what but such is life. maybe you can pray for hurricane miss idk.
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pyroak: 350-414 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

reminder that anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot

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dex

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