BW OU Viability Ranking, mk. 4

peng

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As others have mentioned, Kadabra is a (very) niche option on Psyspam.

Don't think of it as competing with Alakazam, think of it as complimenting Alakazam. The point of Psyspam is to stack Pokemon that share a similar set of counters, the majority of which are Spikes-weak. You'll normally see Latios + Reuniclus + Alakazam, but Kadabra certainly has a niche as a base 120 SAtk, 105 Spe Magic Guard user with access to almost all of Alakazam's tools bar Focus Blast. The fact that it is literally a slower Alakazam clone is what makes it an option.

The benefits of running both the spoon men together are:
1) Hyper offenses are well designed to overload Alakazam through use of lots of priority, Pursuit, and stacking speed boosting Pokemon together. Focus Sash Alakazam effectively gets to act as a revenge killer only once in a lot of games, and this is easy to take advantage of for teams like Smurf.
2) Alakazam has 8 moves it really wants to run (Psychic/Psyshock, Focus Blast, Hidden Power [Ice], Hidden Power [Fire], Grass Knot, Signal Beam, Encore, Thunder Wave) and you'll always miss whatever you don't have. Kadabra shares 95%+ of its movepool with Alakazam and as such you can get more of the coverage / support options that you want.

Since Kadabra doesn't learn Focus Blast, the best pairing of the two I've found is:
:kadabra: Kadabra @ Focus Sash
Psychic / Grass Knot / Hidden Power [Fire] / Thunder Wave

:alakazam: Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Psyshock / Focus Blast / Hidden Power [Ice] / Signal Beam or Encore

Its not an incredible Pokemon or anything, and nobody is claiming it to be. However, it is a viable Psyspam option that gives that archetype some favourable advantages in match-ups where it is traditionally poor. In particular, Kadabra + Alakazam is a nightmare for Smurf to try and navigate, turning what is normally a bad MU for Psyspam into a very strong one. Revenge-killing the likes of Volcarona and Dragonite becomes easy knowing you have a second full-health spoon man in the wings to stop the next sweeper. Kadabra is notably worse than most Reuniclus sets in the sand mirror as it can clunk quite hard into opposing Reuniclus, Gliscor etc. However, these are issues that Grass+Fire Alakazam has always had too and this set still sees decent usage even today despite these issues. Vs Rain, I think Reuniclus and Kadabra play too differently to directly compare, but you're basically weighing up having a reliable Scald switch-in or having another fast Pokemon to revenge-kill Thundurus, revenge kill or paralyse Keldeo / Latios etc - realistically all variants of Psyspam are very strong against Rain and Latios + Kadabra + Alakazam is no different, albeit just needing to be played more pro-actively.

Solid B or B- Pokemon for me. Certainly a lot better than many of the Pokemon currently ranked on the VR (Riolu, Mienshao, Forretress, Tangrowth...). If it wasn't an Alakazam pre-evo, and instead a completely independent Pokemon in its own right, I'm sure it would be taken far more seriously!

edit: i should note it basically necessitates a slow u-turn / vswitch partner like glisc/rotom or even shit like eject button jellicent, because having 2 mons that never switch-in is obviously not fun
 
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Ununhexium

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Slightly controversial nom time!

Gliscor -> S (or top of A+)

Gliscor saw a huge rush of usage in SPL on bulky sand teams featuring Celebi, and its SD sets are as good as ever, but I have found it has become an even better Pokemon as PsySpikes has come to dominate the metagame more and more as it's a natural fit on these teams and can be useful in defeating them. It keeps Stealth Rock up consistently against Excadrill which is arguably the best spinner in the tier, can act as a buffer against Rotom-W that try to status / Volt Switch on your whole team (and can Knock Off on it as well), and can handle Heatran without much difficulty, which can otherwise be a hassle for some PsySpikes teams. Additionally, as Tyranitar are running Thunder Wave more often for Alakazam, they have less room to run Ice Beam, meaning Gliscor is an even safer switch-in. Its Spikes immunity and ability to handle Tyranitar allows it to be valuable against PsySpikes as well.

Volcarona -> A- or A

Volcarona has seen a big uptick since SPL on Smurf and other hyper offense teams and it has some matchups where it just wins games outright. Yes, it can be matchup reliant and yes, it is super weak to Stealth Rock, but one free turn can end the game in a lot of cases unless the other team is packing scarf Keldeo. I think it deserves a bit more respect than B+.

Tornadus -> B+

I love Tornadus and I think it's a blast to play with, but it feels a bit underwhelming in this metagame. Specs has been on the decline for a while now because its super easy to Pursuit trap with Tyranitar, but even its 3 attacks sets or Substitute + Protect seem underwhelming because it's easy to chip down with sand and it requires Stealth Rock off the field to be able to do its job. Throw in a relative lack of defensive utility and its ability to enter the field is significantly diminished. It can still weak havoc, but it ain't what it once was.

Xatu -> B+

Maybe it's just me. It's probably just me, but I groan every time I see a Xatu in team preview because it's just so damn good at harassing the best hazard setters in the meta, such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Gliscor, Jirachi, Celebi, and Landorus-T (kinda, HP Ice still does a decent chunk) and I find its PsySpikes matchup is pretty good as it can keep Spikes off without a ton of trouble and can even bounce back stuff like Will-O-Wisp from Jellicent.
 

FNH

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This turned out way longer then i intended.

Took a bit of inspiration from Jirachee's post on the ADV V/r and I wanted to approach the BW V/r in the same manner. The general methodology is rather unoriginal, largely plagiarized from Jirachee.

The problem that Jirachee raised with V/r's is while certain mons are the same rank, often they are fundamentally different from each other, impacting the game differently and to varied effectiveness. The V/r doesnt show why defensive pokemon as Rotom-W are considered so highly or why Terrakion, an absolute powerhouse on paper, sits so low; the actual impact is lost in the list that ranks pokemon based on vague criteria. Latios and Ferrothorn, arguably the two-best mons in the tier can only claim to have their insanely high usage in common, nothing else. Yet both impact the game in massive and different ways. There is a lack of emphasis on why they are so good or how they influence the metagame. A while backm Caetano and I derived a general explanation to each tier, but the definitions were ambiguous at best and hardly explain the difference's between individual mons. Caetano's expansion with each sub V/r to capture the impact of the individual mons per each weather style helped in this regard. The V/r could almost follow a format of the role compendium but simplified to better show how each pokemon functions in its own capacity. Jirachee's clustering of pokemon by the general influence they have on the metagame is a rather ideal methodology to follow for a V/r.



One could simplify the V/r into a basic offensive, defensive, and utility roles but the names don’t really capture the idea well or the influence of the members in each category. Taking this idea, a little further, but maintaining simple names for each category we could arrive with a 3 tier approach as such: Tier 1"Pokemon you have to be able to beat", Tier 2"Pokemon you need to answer", Tier 3"Pokemon you need a general plan to deal with". These names for each category seem more proper to how one would describe its members, but even than there is a need to want to break them out into offensive defensive clusters. My general thought of when i was writing this was predicated on as if I was preparing to face these pokemon. If i was creating a team what would be the pokemon(s) I was preparing the most to face.

While each Pokemon's role and influence is better highlighted in this format, I think I still failed to capture properly the unique synergy that pairing of pokemon gives a player. Maybe the Cores thread can do this better. In all truthfulness Spikes would be the highest of categories for the most meta defining, but alas it’s a move and not a Pokemon. Its influence as an enabler of teammates can’t be understated, and if you read below there is mention of how top tier pokemon become truly unstoppable when paired with spikes. The general failure of my V/r to highlight archetypes synergy and power sucks, but that could be a better project for the individual Weather V/r’s Caetano posted below in the Op. Scald would go along side spikes as well. Its importance can’t be understated given that it’s a primary avenue for defensive water types to force out opposing checks and how crippling burns are in the tier. Politoed could never be nearly as effective if wasn’t able to cripple Ferrothorn via scald, otherwise every time Politoed came in it would mean free spikes for Ferrothorn. Passive powerhouses of the tier such as Tentacruel are able to cripple walls such as Ferrothorn or even opposing Tentacruel’s. Regardless i think this cluster format simplifies the V/r quite well and can highlight the influence of individuals in the tier.



Let’s organize what is in each category into the tiers. Starting with Tier 1.

Tier 1 -Pokemon you have to beat::Latios::Excadrill::Landorus-Therian::Alakazam::Reuniclus::Ferrothorn::Tyranitar::Politoed::Tentacruel::Gliscor:

This group is encompassed by the most defining members of the tier, not being able to beat what is in this category would mean not being able to win a game. This includes your Ferrothorn's, Latios's, Landorus-Therian's, Tyranitar's, Politoeds, Reuniclus's, Tentacruel's, Excadrill's and even Alakazam's. Being unable to deal with members as such, gives players the only option of clicking forfeit. I wouldnt really go as far as ranking these pokemon above each other, as each is uniquely good in the tier. This ranking can also go a step further with including spikes and hell even scald. Showing up spikes weak to a game is just as bad as showing up with nothing that can hit Ferrothorn or deal with a Latios. Showing up with no real answer to scald spams, or something that is "sackable" to a scald burn, is going to see the game end pretty fast as well. This list should be subdivided into two smaller lists of defensive/Utility members and Offensive power houses.

Breaking it out in that manner you would have:

For Attackers: :Latios::Excadrill::Landorus-Therian::Alakazam::Reuniclus:

You have to have an answer for each of these Pokemon. They will win 10/10 without a solid answer to shut them down. A unique trait that all of these attackers have is how none are affected by spikes except for Excadrill who spins anyway but all of them become absurd when paired with spikes. All of these attackers are rather spashable as well, ie they fit well into a large variety of teams as well giving players multiple paths to explore in the team builder when utilizing them. Interestingly enough all but one is spikes immune and all members of this group have an attacking stat of 130 or greater bar Reuniclus who uses CM boosts to power through opponents. None are weak to Stealth rocks as well, this going to show just how far not being weak to hazards can go in a tier dominated by entry hazard play.

For Defenders: :Ferrothorn::Tyranitar::Landorus-Therian::Gliscor::Politoed::Tentacruel:

You have to be able to break these Pokemon in order to make progress in a game. there is no other way about it. They are all too common and too strong to be left ignored. Furthermore most of these members enable the attackers above ie. Ferrothorn’s spikes enables Alakazam's positioning in a game from threat to game winning. Landorus-Therians dual hatted role of attacker and defender makes it one of the more verstatile pokemon in the metagame, its also arguably the best stealth rock setter, able to constantly keep rocks in play. Politoed's drizzle gives Tentacruel rain dish, making Tentacruel a virtually unkillable defensive check. Scald in the rain has a natural way of forcing ferro in and burning it, thus giving Latios on in the rain a more powerful positioning. I don't know how else to say it but you have to be able to break these Pokemon. Tyranitar is a little bit unique here, but the power of sandstorm is massive in the metagame, especially when it comes to checking the rain. Taking 1/16 of the total Hp of an opponent reduces the number of times said threat can come in while also removing the boost that the rain gives them. pairing this with spikes gives very limited room for certain attackers to have a massive influence on a game and constricts rain archetypes ability to dominate play.
Tier 2 - Pokemon you need an answer to::Keldeo::Garchomp::Mamoswine::Thundurus-Therian::Dragonite::Breloom::Volcarona::Heatran::Kyurem-Black::terrakion::Magnezone::Jellicent::Skarmory::Rotom-Wash::Jirachi:
These Pokemon are all good, but their presence in the meta is less imposing for lack of a better word. No team can function well without solid answers to members of this category. This category could be split into two subcategories, one for general attackers and the other for general defensive members. Every member here wants to be paired with top category Pokemon and passive support via sand, spikes, and entry hazard removal goes a long with these Pokemon

For Attackers: :Keldeo::Garchomp::Mamoswine::Thundurus-Therian::Dragonite::Breloom::Volcarona::Heatran::Kyurem-Black::terrakion::Magnezone:

I would include stuff like Keldeo's, Garchomp’s, Mamoswine's, Thundurus-Therian's, Dragonite's, Breloom's, Volcarona's, Heatran, Kyurem-Black's, Terrakion's and Magnezone's.

You need some sort of plan to deal with not only these Pokemon but the common strategies behind them. If you have to sack something every time one of these Pokemon come in, then your team isn’t a team worth using. Everything in this category also enable’s offensive strategies. General "soft" checks can sometimes work with dealing with these threats, such as sometimes a Landorus-Therian can be enough to negate Breloom's effectiveness in the game or going with Latios (not really a soft check) is enough to keep Keldeo from opening up your team, but regardless a plan and answers must be in place in order to deal with these threats. A large part of what can help negate the impact that these Pokemon have is their weakness to Stealth rock or lack of immunity to spikes (a factor that is largely absent from the attackers in the top category). Negating the number of times a threat comes in dimishes the threats capability to break down opponents. Breloom, despite excellent Hp recovery is harder to get in with spikes up or sand as well. Volcarona is countered by aggressive rocks play, often forced in early due to the threat of hazards going up (see this post). Each one of these members can be shut down or reduced in impact by hazards. Ferrothorn's or even Skarmory's spikes go a long way in prohibiting a threat’s effectiveness, escpecially the ones in this ranking. On the flip side all of these Pokemon because massively threatening with spike support as well. Each member here is also capable of breaking down opponents’ teams. Every member is threatening when it comes in and is accompanied by a large move pool to pressure opponents. Some attackers here could have arguments to push them into the top catagory as well given how threatening they can be.

For Defenders: :Heatran::Jellicent::Skarmory::Rotom-Wash::Jirachi:

Jellicent's, Skarmory's, Rotom-Wash's, Heatran's (again), Jirachi's. These are defensive giant's but are harder to fit into a proper team at the moment due to it generally opening up the team to other threat's (Skarmory can open opponents up to Rotom, Thundurus or even just scald spam's), but also showing up to games without a consistent way to break through these pokemon can prove quite troublesome. These members are all great but the varied usage or poor Mu's means that one can't expect to face them as often as members above. Defensive Heatran, as great as it is, has varied usage due to how poor it can perform vs a rain MU, but against a Sand team, one would want a plan to deal with it's lava plume spams if given sand team is to perform properly. Another example Having 0 good answers to Rotom-Wash's Volt-Switch + Hydro-Pump combo can quickly put you at a loss in a game as well or if your one answer is pursuit-able (given that Tyranitar is a common partner for Rotom). Rotom's versatility and ability to pivot could make an argument for being in the tier above, but I kept it here for how poor its Hp recovery is in general. Regardless, showing up without an answer to any of these mons will generally result in being walled by them. Thus a general method to beat them is in place.
Tier 3 - Pokemon you need a general plan to deal with::Celebi::Slowking::Slowbro::Scizor::tornadus::Seismitoad::Gastrodon::Hydreigon::Gyarados::Salamence::Starmie::Toxicroak::Zapdos::Latias::Gengar:
Most of the entire B rank and below would fall into this category. I would start with including: Celebi, Slowking, Slowbro, Scizor, Tornadus, Seismitoad, Gastrodon, Hydreigon, Gyarados, Starmie, Salamence, Toxicroak, Zapdos, Latias, and Gengar. There would be more to include to be fair, but this is a fine enough start. It is a different category in structure given that in general the mons occupying it have some overlap in how they are used with either each other. Gastrodon and Seismitoed both would fall in this category share similar typing and vaguely similar roles, but are countered by the same/similar stuff. Regardless not having an answer for them would be putting yourself at a serious disadvantage especially due to how similar what these two can do when compared to some of the S rank rain Pokemon ie, you need a plan for scald. I would also venture to say that Pokemon in this category are susceptible/countered/broken easily by Stealth Rocks and spikes as well. Slowking's capability to wall and regain Hp easily is quickly diminished by the presence of spikes. Zapdos could be quite formidable, but with the presence of Stealth rocks and sand, it quickly struggles to find opportunities to come into play. Scizor in theory should be able to take out any Magic guard play, but once again spikes quickly negates its capability to be effective in this capacity.

There is also just the general argument the pokemon here are "blanket checked" by a lot of the ones listed above them. Most well-built teams will have a couple soft checks and one good one to everything listed here, further diminishing the impact that they have in the metagame. There are very few exceptions to this (maybe Hydreigon, but his poor speed and general frailty cripples his impact).

Showing up to a game without a general strategy to deal with these lower ranked threats can lead to a really problematic game. Stuff like Slowking or Hydreigon can quickly snowball from problematic to game winning if you dont have a plan to deal with them. Part of dealing with these threats though seems to also come down to how you play. If Celebi (with only Psychic) lets Hydreigon in for free don’t keep Celebi in. These pokemon don’t define the metagame or see a ton of usage but they are still something that has to be considered when building.

A few Pokemon might have slipped through the cracks, but the rest not listed are rather poor and not viable.
I think the methodolgy of "ranking by clusters" holds well and better shows how pokemon can be better broken out in the meta game. It simplefies the V/r in some capacity as well, but I still feel like I or the methodology failed to highlight each member of the groups individual role and influence in the metagame well enough which might be above the V/r's capacity. An alternative approach would be ranking them based on choice of usage. This V/r was written with through the lense of preparing for opponents teams. I could have taken the alternate and thought about the power of pairing these pokemon together and how effective they would be in that regard as well. Though i dont know how comprehensive this mentality would be as you naturally exclude non synergetic members that dont fall into your teams game plan, despite how good they are. A ranked role compendium could maybe work in this regard. There is also the problem of highlighting the strength of the synergies of pokemon paired together ie. why people can claim Tentacruel in the rain is S rank, or Alakazam with spikes support is as well. A primary take away from this though would be how important hazard support and control is to ensuring the effectiveness of pokemon in the tier. Attackers less constrained by hazards also seemed to dominate the top tier of this list as well (this is my opinion though). Thanks for the read and would love hear your thoughts on the matter.
 
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GaryTheGengar

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I think FNH's post gives a nice overview, and for the most part I agree with his separation of tiers. The methodology used sacrifices some individual detail for the sake of a broad description of the tier. This isn't a negative, but it does make it harder to get an idea of what each individual pokemon does.


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Here is my own individual viability ranking. I'll try to do a short write up for most mons, with a little more depth for some surprises.
S
I think latios has established itself by now as the best mon in the tier, and the development of colbur sets have only made it better.

Tyranitar second as its defensive utility is unmatched. Best check to latios, checks magic guard users, sand suffocates rain.

Ferro rounds out S rank due to its ability to be used on both rain and sand to equal success. Spikes are massive in this meta, and ferro is arguably the best user. Also helps absorb a few attacks from latios.

A+
Gliscor to the top of the A tiers due to its great performance recently, with landorus falling from s to take the spot behind it. Every sand team basically needs one of the ground/flying mons, as keep physical threats such as excadrill in check. Gliscor is bulkier in practice due to poison heal and the tendency to invest fully in bulk. It can be a great sr setter with the ability to poison stall, pivot via uturn, or knock off items. This set can also offer some defense vs. volcorona, which is hard to come by on many sand spike teams. On the other hand, gliscor is a dangerous sweeper with swords dance. If a team doesn't have a check to sd gliscor, they lose on the spot, and teams with limited counterplay often lose long term. Great mon, borderline S.

Landorus on the other hand is still a great pokemon. It's still great, but competes directly with gliscor for a spot.

excadrill - every team needs hazard control, and excadrill is the best of the bunch. matches up decent vs spikers, beats every spinblocker. very threatening in its own right with sand force. arguably better than landorus, but the prevalence of psyspam as the most common sand variant holds it back from being a necessity.

zam - psyspikes are probably the best form of team in the meta with zam at the forefront.

thundurus-t - probably the biggest surprise here, ranked above politoed. thund-t is the primary reason to run rain, as well as simultaneously being one of the biggest threats to rain. The only thundurus checks in the tier that sees any use are latios, spdef celebi and possibly gastrodon. Latios can only switch in once, as hp ice 2hkos, and it also risks a thunder para. Gastro loses to grass knot and has a tough time with nasty plot. Celebi is probably the best of the bunch, but even that loses to np or a rare u-turn. The inability to be walled, decent speed tier, set up moves in agility / nasty plot / substitute all lead to a top pokemon.

keldeo - had this at top of a, but fits on both rain and sand. premier offensive threat

A
garchomp is reliable but doesn't excel at one thing imo. great sr setter, good scarfer, dangerous sd sets, mix set are all good, but none of them are outstanding individually.

loom has more upside than chomp, but more downside too. a good matchup with loom can have an opponent unable to touch it. doesnt do much in bad mus. must be respected in teambuilder

toed - low by some people's standards. rain doesn't hold up well in the sand vs rain mu. with proactive play and intent to keep hazards/weather up at all possible times, sand will be on the field more often than not, making it difficult for the rain player to do much of anything. by itself, one of the least useful mons in ou. team structures can have difficulty fitting checks for top ou threats ex thundurus, latios. despite all the hate, enables an entire relatively successful archtype.

reuniclus - similar to loom. necessitates answers in teambuilder, can have less than impactful games/win them outright. good answer to other psyspikes.

volcorona - due for a big raise. biggest hit/miss mon on the list, but more hits than misses and the matchups it gets are fantastic. Requires a certain build, but is the best sweeper in ou.

skarmory - great spiker on sand, due for a raise. better mu than ferrothorn vs excadrill. alakazam check, takes advantage of ground/flyings. good on ho w/ jellicent. weakness to rain (without jellicent) keeps it from going any higher

tentacruel - not big on tentacruel. its a spinner that is pretty easily spinblocked by the only viable ghost in the tier. Bad mu vs psychic heavy sands. however still a roadblock that needs to be overcome in order to beat rain, and has some nice qualities of its own.

A-

don't think rotom-w is a meta defining force anymore. too easily chipped with sand, sr, u-turns, burns, etc. still an effective pivot for a time, and can be hard to switch into. ok scarfer.

mamo - fantastic mon. stab combo hits a large portion of ou super effectively. ice shard is useful for faster threats, but its speed is still ultimately a let down.

dnite - 2nd best setup sweeper to volc. if volc has a poor mu, hyper offensive teams usually rely on dragonite to do some heavy lifting. different items can change the checks it has. great volcorona check of its own. sub dd is decent as well

bit of a power gap here from the first half of a-. terakion is very hard, if not impossible to wall, but relies on 80 acc stab far too much. it has great bulk, but is weak to spikes. its ultimate downfall for me is that it just doesnt seem to fit on very many teams. still a threat though

magnezone - bad mon, but it takes care of the spikers which can be huge in a tier so centered on hazards. facilitates its own team style (dragmag).
sometimes, teams don't mind trading skarm/ferro for a layer or two of hazards. can be dangerous when paired with sd gliscor. decent overall and can make a big impact.

heatran - on paper, heatran is awesome. However in practice, the hazards weakness and rain susceptibility are a big knock. Very hard to wall, but 78 speed isn't great. He also suffers the same issue as terakion in that its hard to find a spot for heatran on a team. In this case due to poor synergy with the tier's hazard control.

B+
jirachi - hard to fit. not very effective offensively, defensively hazard weak and faces competition w/ other steels. decent on rain.

celebi - nice water resist, good defensively. sr. nasty plot can make a decent sweeper

gastrodon - water immune that isn't pursuit weak. checks some physical threats decently, such as dragonite and landorus-t. spikes weak hold it back, but best of the "bulky waters" imo.

jellicent - only spinblocker. great on offensive spike teams. hard to fit defensively, weak to hazards and doesn't spinblock excadrill more than once. almost guarantees a win vs rain. outside of its beneficial mus, can have a tendency to be mediocre

tornadus - very strong, but hard to use. protect usage is high, ttar are always chople or scarf, spdef skarm relatively common. hard to fit on rain with prevalence of thundurus-t.

starmie - best offensive spinner. ultimately kind of bad, but fills its niche. specs on rain is fun

kyurem-b - strong, but easily played around in practice. still can guarantee a ko. mix sets are somewhat viable

scizor - decent sweeper that helps defensively on ho. fills holes on rain

B
seismitoad - good movepool, water immune, best niche bulky water imo. no recovery hurts sometimes, but should be played on teams that need it as a pivot

slowtwins - both viable, but compete with gastro/jelicent/seismitoad. slowbro helps secure physical mus for sand, while slowking can ward off keldeo. Offensive sets are a thing, too.

mew - I want to love mew but it is so hard to get to work. weak to strong water moves in rain, but sand mu can be good. relies on wisp. hard to fit on a team in the end.

gyarados - devastating sweeper in optimal conditions, which are ultimately pretty hard to set up. can easily win games, but will often do nothing.

salamence - decent scarfer. demands a quick response or can get out of hand. drag mag is pretty bad though.

milotic - generic bulky water. offers refresh and recover, but the other waters have a more well defined niche.

kyurem - another mon that is better on paper. too hazards weak, but ice stab is a valuable thing to have. B for its potential, B- for how it often performs.

B-
xatu - does a decent job of keeping hazards, especially spikes, off the field. can have trouble with more offensive sr setters, or pivoting until it can be picked off. pretty good but forces awkward team compositions imo.

latias - sub cm can devastate rain, but there really isnt much of a reason to run this. better options for wearing down tar/ferro exist than dual lati.

mienshao - underrated. play around obvious protect turns for a big advantage! prevalence of psychics hurts it though.

ninetales/cresselia/chansey - sun stall package, all mons go together. sun is very hard to get to work, but this would be the package to run if you try it. very hard to kill in sun, but not worth playing due to the difficulty in maintaining the weather.

hydreigon - eh. doesnt really do anything in practice. speed tier hurts it a lot vs latios. still potentially has its uses

cloyster - ice stab is very threatening vs traditional sand builds, and a mon that can get free setup vs gliscor/landorus always has some use, even after the kings rock ban.

hippowdon - decent wall, good sr setter. hard to fit on a team (dual sand?)

toxicroak - not very good but has the opportunity to make an impact, mons below it don't really do much


apologies for the sloppy writing style, just wanted to get some thoughts on paper to match the vr.

regarding kadabra, it really isn't worth using outside of the novelty in my opinion. Having two mons that can't switch in to anything is too much of a liability. Psyspam would often prefer reuniclus to absorb scalds, or a defensive piece instead of loading more psychics. Another big element that makes kadabra worse for me is its 105 speed - slower than the 4 horses, latios, scarftar etc. combined with its lack of focus blast, it can be hard to get it to crack holes in the early game for zam. I think it has a very small niche, but stuff like B rank is asking too much.
 

Ununhexium

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I told FNH I would respond to his post so here it is.

First off, I would like to point how how he kept writing it as "V/r" which is just fucked up. Just say VR like a normal person >:(

Second, I disagree with that idea because it doesn't exactly rank how good something is as much as it ranks how common it is. For example, Politoed is more common, but Keldeo is much more threatening / good and requires a more detailed game plan to handle.

Another problem with grouping them by how much counterplay it necessitates is that it doesn't really demonstrate how good something is. For example, while I believe that Landorus-T is a better Pokemon, it is easier to account for naturally in teambuilding than something like Keldeo. (Note that I am not advocating for Keldeo to rise, it just makes for a good example).

That list also implies that those Pokemon in the top rank are as good as Latios / Ferrothorn / Tyranitar which is simply not true, even if they require a similar amount of attention in the teambuilder.

I guess my point is that...it should be a different thread? I understand the goal it's trying to achieve and it's a good point to make, but a VR is attempting to rank how good or threatening a Pokemon is in the metagame, whereas FNH's proposal seems more like a teambuilding checklist.

So that this post isn't just dragging on someone's idea, I would like to nominate Thundurus-T to move somewhere above Keldeo and Keldeo to drop a little bit (low A+ high A, probably high A) because Thundurus-T I believe to be the most threatening Pokemon on rain teams. Specs Keldeo's nuke doesn't feel as valuable as it used to back in the good old days, and rain is sort of fishy anyway as they have a tendency to lose to a lot of sands. In addition, while it can be used on sand, I find Keldeo sand teams to be kinda wonky and it doesn't really provide enough in the way of defensive utility to be justified on a lot of teams.
 
How viable is scarf landorous? It could u-turn on everything and revenge kill a lot of stuff with its high speed tier. I know it is not landorous’ main set but this makes it easier for it to use intimidate again and again after u-turning out of like Kyurum black. It could also Outspeed other landorous and hidden power ice
 
How viable is scarf landorous? It could u-turn on everything and revenge kill a lot of stuff with its high speed tier. I know it is not landorous’ main set but this makes it easier for it to use intimidate again and again after u-turning out of like Kyurum black. It could also Outspeed other landorous and hidden power ice
It's totally usable, but not very good. Its speed tier is nice because it outspeeds Dragonite, but unlike a scarfer like Latios, Keldeo, or Garchomp it does not outspeed Volcarona. Landorus also doesn't really have a move which is good to lock into besides U-Turn, everything else is pretty exploitable if your opponent switches. Unlike bulkier Landorus, scarf really doesn't cut it as a check to physical attackers like Terrakion, Excadrill, etc. So you will want some other support there, which is going to be really hard to find. It's mostly trying to do too many things at once and ends up not doing any of them very well, leaving you open to physical attackers and Volcarona. Practically every sand team runs Landorus or Gliscor to help with those physical attackers, the scarf variant just takes too much damage and leaves you pretty open. It isn't a trash set or anything but certainly not something to spam on all sorts of teams.
 
Alright, guys, having made my Gengar post on the BW OU Hub thread, it's time that I chime my thoughts on this VR.

-->B (Above Hydreigon)

The gap in terms of viability between Mew and Gengar makes me cringe so hard. Mew has a much worse typing and ability and somehow manages to find a place in B while Gengar is lower than freaking Amoonguss. With the discovery of Trick, I think Gengar is making itself a much bigger name on Psyspam teams. Its movepool is also really big, Sucker Punch and Destiny Bond are both really underrated techs that just aren't seeing enough usage in serious games. I had some real success with it and I feel like B- is a gross underestimate of how much potential Gengar really has.

-->B+ (Either below or above Gastrodon)

Why is this mon in B while Slowking and Gastrodon are in B+? Seriously, Seismitoad's support movepool is just really good. Having a Water-Type that can set rocks up really helps enable cool Sand structures since you don't have to always run SR Gliscor. I would even argue it to be higher than Gastrodon with its ability to stonewall Rotom-W, Tentacruel and even Gyarados (given it isn't running Earthquake) as well as keeping Breloom at bay via Knock Off.

-->B (Below Gyarados)

Even with King's Rock banned, this thing is terrifying for Psyspam to face. You pretty much need to rely on Focus Blast hitting or else this mon will shred your team. Its obviously worse now but seeing it in a tier that belongs to trash like Bronzong and Victini doesn't make any sense.

--> B (Lower than Hydreigon)

Wow, Kyu-B is really facing hard times now. Ever since Scarf Latios had been roaming the streets, the meta just isn't kind to it anymore. It's weak to all kinds of hazards, is incredibly prediction reliant for Damage and is revenge killed way too quickly before it even gets a chance to kill anything. The fact that Volc and Psyspam are the most dominant playstyles only makes things even worse. I feel like its time has ultimately come to an end and a drop would inevitably be necessary. I would honestly rather use Hydreigon rather than use this.
 
hydreigon.png
B ->B-
heydreigon is has no real role in the land of scarf latios it is very hard for it to break most common sand cores and even is it resists pursuit the amount of chip it will be taking means a pursuit will most likely be to much for it to handle. ontop of that hydreigon has alot of trouble breaking walls like ferro relying on alot of prediction couple that with the amount of ho teams which hydragon does not handle to well defensively.
 
It's true that Hydreigon does not match up very well against hyper offensive teams, however saying that it struggles to break through Ferrothorn is simply false since its wallbreaking sets all carry either a fighting move or a fire move to easily beat the durian. Additionally, although it is noticeably slower than scarf Latios 324 speed still allows to be a decent revenge killer against the likes of Garchomp and Dragon Dance Dragonite while not being prone to Pursuit afterwards. One of the main flaws of scarf Latios is that it is often both the dedicated revenge killer for its team and a key defensive presence, since Hydreigon isn't as relied on defensively it is technically a more reliable revenge killer. Finally it has U-turn, meaning it can easily keep momentum for your team and help get in its teammates on the field safely, something Latios can only dream of doing. The lack of relevant resistances to most of the tier's defining offensive types definitely hampers Hydreigon's viability and that is why it is more of a niche pick but it still has its upsides of being a wallbreaker that is extremely difficult to check defensively for most teams and impossible to punish by pursuiting after an assault so B is perfectly fine for it.
 

FNH

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hydragons weakness to fighting is a big problem as it wont be able to switch into keldeo and breloom meaning you will need to fit a check for these pokemon
Yes, given hydreigon's typing this is very true. It can't switch into fighting types effectively. Its just how to type chart works. I dont know if you are implying that Hydreigon was your check here, but regardless you should always have solid checks to these two mons. They are both massive offensive threats in the tier. Forgoing checks on a Keldeo and Breloom leads to massive problems. Every team should check them.

Short comments on the Hydreigon discussion. Its move pool is excellent and Hydreigon is really at its best vs a Psychic spam Sand MU. Unfortunatley for an attacker, Hydreigon fails to outspeed a lot of mons all of which threaten to OHKO Hydreigon, and feels meh vs more offensively oriented teams. Its movepool and set flexibility (Bkc's sets) maintains its potency as a great wallbreaker especially versus slower bulkier teams. Substitute is very nice as well on Hydreigon punishing the protect/switch (I prefer earth power > flamethrower to prevent kel and rak from dunking on you). Anyway, the bad match ups should prevent any rise in the near the future for hydreigon, but its top class movepool and presence vs slower sand builds certainly prevent it from being in B - alongside mons that require a ton of support to work.
 
My biggest issue with Hydreigon was always its type stacking with Tyranitar's. Double Dark gave me no room for building something I liked. Following I tried it in rain, and it was even worse. Not having a Fire move sucks. Focus Blast is a bad move. Perhaps Specs could work, but I'd rather give free Specs turn to a Keldeo in Rain than Hydra. Though Hydra can work in every weather, so I could have been a little more courageous with my builds.

It's hard to justify using the mon for me. B seems fine. It still hits super hard and has some very favorable matchups. It just doesn't fit my style.
 

peng

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Hydra’s issue for me has always been that is does 1 thing super well but doesnt contribute much metagame-relevant utility past that. Heavily competes with Latios and mix Chomp in particular but those tick extra boxes like Keldeo/Thund check and Vswitch immune/SR respectively, whereas building with Hydra you rely on other stuff to pick ip the slack. Its probably a better out-and-out wallbreaker than either of the aforementioned but BW is a meta where one-job mons can be really tough to justify.

A weird flaw of Hydra is that its movepool is actually so wide that it doesnt manage to lure or bait anything reliably so that makes finding partners that abuse its wallbreaking super hard - sure it will take a KO every game, but one game it could be a fat water, the next it could be Heatran, the next it could be Skarm, and so on. This makes it really weird as a supporting wallbreaker cos you can’t base consistent gameplans around what it will put damage on in any given game, cos your opponent can’t be conditioned to sac specific things to it - it can beat anything, but its too slow to actually be a standalone sweeper in its own right. Sounds like a weird criticism but one of the reasons that Latios is such a good supporter is that it legit has a flaw (Pursuit weakness) which forces predictable/linear lines of play (opponent uses Ttar against it) which you can then abuse (pair with psys/thundurus to overload tyranitar, or pair with mons that set-up on Ttar). Replace Latios with mixChomp and same thing - opponent is conditioned to use Landorus and Skarmory as Garchomp checks so it will reliably put dmg on them. Hydra is almost too damn good at wallbreaking for its own good as the mons you end up weakening with it might as well be random because you can’t rely on your opp following a standard line of play vs an uncounterable pokemon.
 
why is terrakion still in a rank as reun gliscor and breloom you only really see it on sand offence and some ho.

The choice band set is not really good anymore in my opinion because it gets stuff by lando gliscor ontop of being locked into 1 move making it easy to dance around.

The suicide lead set ran on ho is good because it is the fastest lead w taunt and sr which allows you to switch into your volcorona right after setting up rocks and doing some damage. however chomp is usually better due to it forcing more damage.

The best set is prob the sd gem set as this allows you to lure and drop terraks counters. this is extremly valuable on alot of sand offence.

A big reason why terrak is still good imo is bcz of how prevalent ho is and how terrak is the best volc check in the game.

however it has trouble switching in without any reliable recovery and due to all the spikes it is kinda hard for it to switch ontop of being weak to alot of common types like psychic water and grass.

In conclusion terrak has alot of useful traits but its flaws prevent it from being A in my eyes

if you think its deserving of its placing please state why.
 
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why is terrakion still in a rank as reun gliscor and breloom you only really see it on sand offence and some ho.

The choice band set is not really good anymore in my opinion because it gets stuff by lando gliscor ontop of being locked into 1 move making it easy to dance around.

The suicide lead set ran on ho is good because it is the fastest lead w taunt and sr which allows you to switch into your volcorona right after setting up rocks and doing some damage. however chomp is usually better due to it forcing more damage.

The best set is prob the sd gem set as this allows you to lure and drop terraks counters. this is extremly valuable on alot of sand offence.

A big reason why terrak is still good imo is bcz of how prevalent ho is and how terrak is the best volc check in the game.

however it has trouble switching in without any reliable recovery and due to all the spikes it is kinda hard for it to switch ontop of being weak to alot of common types like psychic water and grass.

In conclusion terrak has alot of useful traits but its flaws prevent it from being A in my eyes

if you think its deserving of its placing please state why.

Terrakion can perform several functions thanks to its stats, one of Terrakion's functions can be that of Sweeper and Wincon. The reason (at least for me) why Terrakion is A is because it puts pressure on some of the best Pokémon of the tier as they are currently Volcarona and Ferrothorn, also after a Swords Dance can easily beat the Pokémon that are above him in the ranking, of course this possessing the rock gem and praying that you hit, I have not talked about his good speed stats and that the special hits will not be as effective when Terrakion is in sand. I think this is reason enough for him to stay in tier A.
 
Terrakion can perform several functions thanks to its stats, one of Terrakion's functions can be that of Sweeper and Wincon. The reason (at least for me) why Terrakion is A is because it puts pressure on some of the best Pokémon of the tier as they are currently Volcarona and Ferrothorn, also after a Swords Dance can easily beat the Pokémon that are above him in the ranking, of course this possessing the rock gem and praying that you hit, I have not talked about his good speed stats and that the special hits will not be as effective when Terrakion is in sand. I think this is reason enough for him to stay in tier A.
Generally speaking, IDK if I can say that I agree with this.

First things first, Terrakion doesn't actually work all that well as a sweeper in Practice. Every time I try to setup on Ferro thinking that I would be able to scare it out, I end up getting twacked by a Power Whip. Instead, Rak ends up serving the role as a wallbreaker since it is so easily stopped by so much of the metagame.

Another thing is that, despite being really good against Volc, it gets scared out by so much priority. Between Bullet Punch from Scizor and Mach Punch from Breloom, it ends up not really being as good of an answer to Smurf HO as one would expect.

And this isn't even touching its biggest issue, its habit of opening glaring defensive holes in your team. Every team I try to build around Rak, it ends up inevitably weak to something. Tar / Celebi / Lando-T / Rotom-W / Rak / Drill can sort of work, but then you realise that you have trouble in terms of forcing out Skarm. Add Zone? Then you end up being weaker to Latios and Rain. Really, I don't think Rak fits in A at all. I think A- would be its best placement.
 
Generally speaking, IDK if I can say that I agree with this.

First things first, Terrakion doesn't actually work all that well as a sweeper in Practice. Every time I try to setup on Ferro thinking that I would be able to scare it out, I end up getting twacked by a Power Whip. Instead, Rak ends up serving the role as a wallbreaker since it is so easily stopped by so much of the metagame.

Another thing is that, despite being really good against Volc, it gets scared out by so much priority. Between Bullet Punch from Scizor and Mach Punch from Breloom, it ends up not really being as good of an answer to Smurf HO as one would expect.

And this isn't even touching its biggest issue, its habit of opening glaring defensive holes in your team. Every team I try to build around Rak, it ends up inevitably weak to something. Tar / Celebi / Lando-T / Rotom-W / Rak / Drill can sort of work, but then you realise that you have trouble in terms of forcing out Skarm. Add Zone? Then you end up being weaker to Latios and Rain. Really, I don't think Rak fits in A at all. I think A- would be its best placement.
The thing about making teams with Terrakion, is that yes, there will always be defensive holes which is inevitable, since no team can be perfect, especially when you take a Pokémon that as you say, is affected by the two best priority users currently which are Scizor and Breloom, however there are teams with Terrakion that are quite solid and that serve in the current meta, take as reference this team of Finch:

:tyranitar: :rotom-wash: :alakazam: :landorus-therian: :ferrothorn: :terrakion:

The real threat I see in this team is Scarf/Specs Keldeo and Thundurus-Therian which manages to enter in substitute and manage to hit 2 Focus Blast to TTar you would be in big trouble, which somehow, you didn't add them at the end of your post. Anyway, Terrakion is NOT a solid and viable answer to all the Pokémon you encounter in a Smurf HO, it's just a variable to answer or get a kill.

Speaking of Lead Terrakion, as seen in this team that has become quite popular, not only is having taunt that improves your matchup vs other Hyper Offense, it also allows you to pressure and lure Pokémons like Skarmory which Scizor, Breloom and Dragonite will thank you for later.
 
The thing about making teams with Terrakion, is that yes, there will always be defensive holes which is inevitable, since no team can be perfect, especially when you take a Pokémon that as you say, is affected by the two best priority users currently which are Scizor and Breloom, however there are teams with Terrakion that are quite solid and that serve in the current meta, take as reference this team of Finch:

:tyranitar: :rotom-wash: :alakazam: :landorus-therian: :ferrothorn: :terrakion:

The real threat I see in this team is Scarf/Specs Keldeo and Thundurus-Therian which manages to enter in substitute and manage to hit 2 Focus Blast to TTar you would be in big trouble, which somehow, you didn't add them at the end of your post. Anyway, Terrakion is NOT a solid and viable answer to all the Pokémon you encounter in a Smurf HO, it's just a variable to answer or get a kill.

Speaking of Lead Terrakion, as seen in this team that has become quite popular, not only is having taunt that improves your matchup vs other Hyper Offense, it also allows you to pressure and lure Pokémons like Skarmory which Scizor, Breloom and Dragonite will thank you for later.
Fair enough I guess. Are you able to send the pokepaste of that Rak Psyspam Team Finch made?
 

peng

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-anti-terrak brigade essay incoming-

Terrak is ranked too high in current VR imo. Look at stuff that is ranked below it - Mamoswine, Skarmory, Jellicent, Volcarona, Starmie, and Scizor are all absolute metagame staples and Terrakion, as it stands, is a fringe presence at best.

Terrakion saw 5 total uses in SPL this year, of which one was SR lead, one was balloon, and the rest appeared to be some variant of SD Rock Gem. That puts it at joint 29th in usage alongside Xatu - obviously this is a small sample size but that sort of ~5% usage does approximately line up with my own estimations of how I often I see Terrakion in the broader tournament scene, its just not a common mon. Obviously usage =/= viability but I think we need to be honest with ourselves with how much we hype SD Rock Gem Terrakion as some metagame-defining wallbreaker, when its only appearing in 1 in 30 top-level tournament games this year.

As well as its low usage, I think its important to note that even when Terrakion is brought to games, it is frequently a near anonymous presence. I'm often called out as someone who builds a lot of "Terrakion weak" teams of Tyranitar / Gliscor / spiker / Latios / Alakazam / filler and several people have been surprised by how irregularly that goes punished. Fact of the matter is that SD Terrakion hardly blows through teams that it is great against on paper, because it has basically zero set-up chances against common structures.
  • Rock Gem Terrakion without Sub sets up freely on literally 2 Pokemon in from S rank to A- rank, which is Flash Cannon-less Magnezone and Plume-less Heatran - that SD / SE / CC / Quick Attack set @ Gem is really clever on paper but its set-up chances are few and far between, so its very easy to build a "Terrak-weak" team that has 0 set-up fodder.
  • Rock Gem Terrakion with Sub has the safer set-up chances because it can play the attack or switch mindgame 4 times against things like Excadrill, but its still inconsistent. Major downside is that it lacks a way to punish an Alakazam revenge kill (realistically you're never gonna be +2 behind a sub), so by taking a kill you're just giving an opening to probably the scariest offensive mon in the metagame.
  • Balloon + SD freely sets up on Landorus-T and Gliscor, which is awesome, but then lacks the firepower you need to actually KO those mons once they come back in again following the SD. Cool set but very fringe.
And this isn't even mentioning the fact that Terrakion's entire gameplan is built around hitting an 80% accurate move in the face of mons that have super effective STABs against it. We saw in SPL that SD Terrak had almost no influence in 2 of the 3 games it appeared in - in one because it couldn't set up, and in the other because it missed a crucial Stone Edge. This is not like Alakazam missing Focus Blast, where you can easily put together a plan to limit how reliant on it you are, and where you always get 2 tries because of Focus Sash. Terrakion literally lives and dies on 80% chances which feels really bad when your set-up is also based on educated guesswork about whether the opp will switch or not. Just incredibly inconsistent.

On a broader point, I think something that people cling to with SD Terrak is that it is "guaranteed a KO every game", which is a point that 1) I disagree with and 2) even if it was true, I think is unimpressive anyway. There is no shortage of strong offensive mons that will nearly always take a KO in BW OU - Hydreigon, Latios, Thundurus-T, Garchomp, SD Gem Breloom, Magnezone, Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, Gem Dragonite probably average 0.9+ KOs a game. We play a metagame where near every team is offensively-oriented and utilising death fodder is probably more important here than any other OU metagame I can think of. You aren't beating Gem Latios by going hard into Tyranitar on it with Spikes up - thats insanity. In the same way, Terrakion is weak enough to the relevant priority / common scarfers / Alakazam that I'm actually completely fine letting it KO something if it means denying a substitute. A handful of teams do have problems revenge killing Terrakion - mostly Scarf Latios rains if Sand is up, but again Terrak sets up on literally zero rain mons safely, you need to keep sand up, and most importantly, like half of the offensive sand mons (i.e. all Psychics) shred rain even more consistently like this so its hardly an advantage that Terrakion has.

People also point to Terrakion as a great anti-Volcarona mon which is true (in sand), but importantly beating Smurf is not just about beating Volcarona, but balancing a workable Volcarona MU with the Scizor / Breloom / Garchomp / Dragonite match-ups. That is the major issue with facing Smurf. Beating Volcarona in a vacuum is easy enough but if your counters make your team weak as hell to Breloom and Scizor then you've actually not gotten anywhere facing smurf at all. I don't know the ins and outs of Finchinator's team above, but it looks like one that has improved its Volcarona MU by utilising Terrakion instead of Latios, but now kinda suffers against the other half of Smurf which is lead SD Garchomp + SD Breloom (+ late-game SD Scizor + DD Dragonite). Latios may be pretty bad vs Volcarona but it at least gives you Garchomp and Breloom revenge kill options that let you save Alakazam's Focus Sash - by using Terrakion, it looks to me like trading a good MU vs half of smurf for a bad MU vs the other half. As a result, I think Terrakion's strong Volcarona MU is a moot point if you then can't salvage a good enough MU vs Breloom or Scizor (and note that generally i think SD Scizor is actually the scariest smurf mon for a lot of sands rn, not Volcarona!)

SR lead is fine, but still not a super common thing and most weatherless are still favouring SR Garchomp.

anyway here's kinda what i think of viability rankings rn
rotom-w, terrak, and celebi by far the most overrated bw mons rn. not really ranked within tiers:
Screenshot 2021-10-01 at 12.24.06.png
 
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As well as its low usage, I think its important to note that even when Terrakion is brought to games, it is frequently a near anonymous presence. I'm often called out as someone who builds a lot of "Terrakion weak" teams of Tyranitar / Gliscor / spiker / Latios / Alakazam / filler and several people have been surprised by how irregularly that goes punished. Fact of the matter is that SD Terrakion hardly blows through teams that it is great against on paper, because it has basically zero set-up chances against common structures.
Not really disagreeing with your overall point about Terrakion (it usually just gets a kill and then gets revenged) but id argue that the team structure you gave as an example is actually one of the best at handling Terrakion (Gliscor/Alakazam/Latios all check it well and the ones "weak to it" aka Ferro/TTar can easily ohko or status it back) and if people tell you that your structures are Terrakion-weak they very likely are just bad at the game.


rotom-w, terrak, and celebi by far the most overrated bw mons rn. not really ranked within tiers:
I think Rotom-W is pretty good - voltswitch+hydro+wow is just really strong and gives some teams huge problems.
Celebi is super situational tho as it always has been. It's typing can be a godsend or just downright awful (ouch u-turn :().
 
I'd agree that Rotom is overrated - because you autolose to rain if you don't have answers for Tentacruel, you also end up with answers to Rotom. Teams that don't have an answer for Tentacruel (or the tempo to outpace) are literally unviable and Rotom runs into the same issues without really helping fend off common structures. Also, burning a Ferrothorn as it spikes isn't really a loss for the Ferro a lot of the time, especially because Rotom isn't really fitting too well on Excadrill sands anyways. I unironically think scarf (either offensive with hp ice or with some bulk and wisp with the intention of tricking) is actually better than traditional rotom. Yeah, tank rotom still cleaves through random garbage like nothing else but against the optimized structures that higher level BW is trending towards you're not going to just win because of Rotom.

I pretty much agree with peng rankings (given that they're unordered, at least) except I'd maybe put Politoed a tier higher and I'd curious to hear more about the Jellicent placing. I feel like Keldeo outside of rain is somewhat unproven in the modern metagame, and rain can work without any specific mon besides Politoed. You can run more offensive rain builds with Starmie, Breloom & Jirachi, Tornadus over Thundurus, etc. I feel like the viability of non core rain mons rain is more than the viability of Tentacruel (and maaaybe Keldeo) so in my mind it makes sense for Politoed to be a tier above.

rip to when Terrakion was the best mon in ou
 
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