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BW2 In-Game Tier List Discussion [Updated 7/24]
- Thread starter Stellar
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^Purrloin is horrible, the gyms hate it and you don't even get a bunch of Munna trainers to grind against early-game any more. I know it sounds harsh but seriously there are hundreds of better options
Anyway, I just finished another run using a team of Volc/Mag/Lucario/Krok/Weezing/Starmie. Out of all these only Koffing and Staryu haven't been tiered yet so I can give some feedback on them:
Koffing: It's always great when something you expect to be shitty turns out to be a really useful team-mate. Koffing starts decently because of its huge Defence stat (although it doesn't really accomplish anything that Magnemite doesn't) but really starts to prove its worth in Castelia. It takes out nearly everything in the sewers and destroys Burgh's Gym almost singlehandedly, though relying on Sludge is annoying and again, Magnemite does a lot of stuff better. It's weird since you wouldn't expect Koffing and Magnemite to have similar roles, but due to Magnemite's amazing typing it acts a lot like Koffing when everything's using Normal, Bug and Dark attacks. It's around Clay that Koffing really begins to shine, though. Immunity to Excadrill's hugely powerful Bulldoze and the Defence to tank everything else it has is very welcome, though it can't do all that much back in fairness and you'll need a few potions to actually win with Koffing (or Weezing). The Fighting, Poison and Ground resistances come into play very very often against vanilla trainers, Koffing really makes you remember just how good Poison-typing can be defensively. You also have the ability to attack decently from both sides of the spectrum, as your STABs are all special but can be backed up well by attacks like Return, Fire Blast, Assurance and Payback. Koffing does struggle against Elesa, Skyla and Marlon and you'll find that Weezing takes a lot more damage than you might think from remotely powerful Special STABs, but its utility against normal trainers as well as its dominance against certain bosses (namely Ghetsis who now uses a stupid physical Hydreigon) help separate it from the Poison-type crowd. A very good Mid tier Pokemon.
Staryu: Another surprise, I adore this thing. You can immediately evolve it into Starmie, which annihilates every normal trainer in the vicinity with its blazing 115 Speed and powerful dual STABs, since you pick up the Psychic TM straight after you get access to Staryu. Starmie's 100 Special Attack is sufficient with such reliable STABs, and Psychic is a much better attack than it was in previous generations due to BW2 Unova's plethora of Poison and Fighting-types. After hitting up all the trainers on Routes 14 & 13 you can pick up Blizzard and Thunder in Lacunosa Town, which help Starmie's coverage tremendously. 70 acc isn't detrimental because nearly everything you'll use Thunder on won't be able to deal significant damage to Starmie anyway, and the same can be said for Blizzard aside from Grass-types and a couple of dragons in Gym 7. Plasma grunts give you problems with Scrafty and sometimes Drapion, but aside from that Starmie beats everything they have. I mentioned Starmie's bulk being worse than Oshawott and Jellicent's and whilst that's true, I found it with just the right stats to survive very strong attacks with a sliver of HP and quickly finish off the foe next turn thanks to its Speed. Starmie curbstomps the Dragon Gym with Blizzard (when your opponent's Haxorus has Dragon Tail for STAB you can afford to miss loads, don't fret) and Marlon's Gym gets destroyed through a mixture of Psychic, Thunder and Starmie's typing. With a final moveset of Surf/Psychic/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam Starmie hits 15 of the 22 Pokemon in the league for SE damage, a coverage feat which is hard to match when one considers that all 6 of Iris' Pokemon get hit for double damage and none of them outspeed or have an easy time killing Starmie (Lapras' Tbolt 2HKOs but so does yours). IMHO Starmie is one of the best Water-types in the game since it's very very quick, has great coverage almost straight away and sweeps at least 4 bosses, 6 if you can kill Ghetsis' Drapion and limit Caitlin's Shadow Balls. It's hampered by availability mostly, if it were available before Clay I'd try to make a case for top but as it is Starmie fits into the High tier nicely. I think one could make a case for Mid if there were enough examples of Starmie's bulk letting it down, but I don't think there'll be too many. Other things that keep Starmie out of the Top Tier for me are its poor performance against Colress and Grimsley, and an initial grind that might be necessary when you catch Staryu.
Anyway, I just finished another run using a team of Volc/Mag/Lucario/Krok/Weezing/Starmie. Out of all these only Koffing and Staryu haven't been tiered yet so I can give some feedback on them:
Koffing: It's always great when something you expect to be shitty turns out to be a really useful team-mate. Koffing starts decently because of its huge Defence stat (although it doesn't really accomplish anything that Magnemite doesn't) but really starts to prove its worth in Castelia. It takes out nearly everything in the sewers and destroys Burgh's Gym almost singlehandedly, though relying on Sludge is annoying and again, Magnemite does a lot of stuff better. It's weird since you wouldn't expect Koffing and Magnemite to have similar roles, but due to Magnemite's amazing typing it acts a lot like Koffing when everything's using Normal, Bug and Dark attacks. It's around Clay that Koffing really begins to shine, though. Immunity to Excadrill's hugely powerful Bulldoze and the Defence to tank everything else it has is very welcome, though it can't do all that much back in fairness and you'll need a few potions to actually win with Koffing (or Weezing). The Fighting, Poison and Ground resistances come into play very very often against vanilla trainers, Koffing really makes you remember just how good Poison-typing can be defensively. You also have the ability to attack decently from both sides of the spectrum, as your STABs are all special but can be backed up well by attacks like Return, Fire Blast, Assurance and Payback. Koffing does struggle against Elesa, Skyla and Marlon and you'll find that Weezing takes a lot more damage than you might think from remotely powerful Special STABs, but its utility against normal trainers as well as its dominance against certain bosses (namely Ghetsis who now uses a stupid physical Hydreigon) help separate it from the Poison-type crowd. A very good Mid tier Pokemon.
Staryu: Another surprise, I adore this thing. You can immediately evolve it into Starmie, which annihilates every normal trainer in the vicinity with its blazing 115 Speed and powerful dual STABs, since you pick up the Psychic TM straight after you get access to Staryu. Starmie's 100 Special Attack is sufficient with such reliable STABs, and Psychic is a much better attack than it was in previous generations due to BW2 Unova's plethora of Poison and Fighting-types. After hitting up all the trainers on Routes 14 & 13 you can pick up Blizzard and Thunder in Lacunosa Town, which help Starmie's coverage tremendously. 70 acc isn't detrimental because nearly everything you'll use Thunder on won't be able to deal significant damage to Starmie anyway, and the same can be said for Blizzard aside from Grass-types and a couple of dragons in Gym 7. Plasma grunts give you problems with Scrafty and sometimes Drapion, but aside from that Starmie beats everything they have. I mentioned Starmie's bulk being worse than Oshawott and Jellicent's and whilst that's true, I found it with just the right stats to survive very strong attacks with a sliver of HP and quickly finish off the foe next turn thanks to its Speed. Starmie curbstomps the Dragon Gym with Blizzard (when your opponent's Haxorus has Dragon Tail for STAB you can afford to miss loads, don't fret) and Marlon's Gym gets destroyed through a mixture of Psychic, Thunder and Starmie's typing. With a final moveset of Surf/Psychic/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam Starmie hits 15 of the 22 Pokemon in the league for SE damage, a coverage feat which is hard to match when one considers that all 6 of Iris' Pokemon get hit for double damage and none of them outspeed or have an easy time killing Starmie (Lapras' Tbolt 2HKOs but so does yours). IMHO Starmie is one of the best Water-types in the game since it's very very quick, has great coverage almost straight away and sweeps at least 4 bosses, 6 if you can kill Ghetsis' Drapion and limit Caitlin's Shadow Balls. It's hampered by availability mostly, if it were available before Clay I'd try to make a case for top but as it is Starmie fits into the High tier nicely. I think one could make a case for Mid if there were enough examples of Starmie's bulk letting it down, but I don't think there'll be too many. Other things that keep Starmie out of the Top Tier for me are its poor performance against Colress and Grimsley, and an initial grind that might be necessary when you catch Staryu.
From a purely theoretical standpoint having not tried one, Purrloin and Liepard just lack any real offensive clout in their attacks in-game which makes it more difficult to blast through the game with it in tow. It struggles to learn any decent attacks outside of Fake Out and Night Slash (and arguably Sucker Punch if it were not for the AI's lack of logical move decisions), and whilst it has some interesting boosting options available, it does not have the defences to really pull off these moves with reliability.
It does have some decent options outside of an embarrasing level-up moveset, but nothing that gives it any particular edge over the competition as you progress throughout the game. U-Turn is possibly the best move for it to give cheap damage, utilising the excellent speed it has, and to escape any potent threat put in front of it, which it learns in BW2. There may be comparatively less fighting types around in the game, but the trade-off is more powerful threats in general that just make it painful to use I'd imagine. Suggesting Bottom Tier, but it's definitely no higher than Low Tier.
It does have some decent options outside of an embarrasing level-up moveset, but nothing that gives it any particular edge over the competition as you progress throughout the game. U-Turn is possibly the best move for it to give cheap damage, utilising the excellent speed it has, and to escape any potent threat put in front of it, which it learns in BW2. There may be comparatively less fighting types around in the game, but the trade-off is more powerful threats in general that just make it painful to use I'd imagine. Suggesting Bottom Tier, but it's definitely no higher than Low Tier.
...except U-Turn is 12 BP in PWT, so unless you're willing to waste time grinding there it's not exactly an option for Liepard.
Besides, when you have other options such as Krookodile, hell even Pawniard, I'd say Purrloin is a very solid Bottom. It literally scratches endgame Pokemon with 88 Attack. Sneasel by itself has higher Attack and Speed than Liepard: that should be enough to prove how much fail Liepard is.
Besides, when you have other options such as Krookodile, hell even Pawniard, I'd say Purrloin is a very solid Bottom. It literally scratches endgame Pokemon with 88 Attack. Sneasel by itself has higher Attack and Speed than Liepard: that should be enough to prove how much fail Liepard is.
is shellder available pre elite 4? shell smash, along with skill link's icicle spear and rock blast(and surf just to give STAB) seems crazily good to me.
or razor shell, but 20 less base power and unperfect accuracy don't appeal to me
or razor shell, but 20 less base power and unperfect accuracy don't appeal to me
Fair point, well made. Didn't realise that U-Turn became a PWT TM, but frankly I've not touched it so far. I like the comparison though of Liepard against Sneasel, does really put it into perspective just how much of the end of the stick it got really.
Shellder is also not available prior to game completion as you require a fishing rod to obtain it Karki, which is only acquired postgame.
makes me wonder why did they take out the old and good rods, they're classic.
Because of the few unovan water type in B/W
Oshawott & Panpour & Ducklett & Tirtouga don't live in Water area
So Tympole, Basculin, Alomomola & maybe Frillish could be caught by rods ... 3 rods for that ? Not needed :)
Oshawott & Panpour & Ducklett & Tirtouga don't live in Water area
So Tympole, Basculin, Alomomola & maybe Frillish could be caught by rods ... 3 rods for that ? Not needed :)
then give good rod pre elite 4; super rod for catching non-unova dex pokes post-game
and also, you could get by fishing staryu, spheal and the other new water types
and also, you could get by fishing staryu, spheal and the other new water types
Those who have used Sewaddle:
Have you been catching it at Lvl 2-4, or waited until Doubles Grass (15%) chance where it's found at Lvl 10-11? Seems it'd be advantageous to skip the 4-6 levels where it has to rely on Tackle for offense.
Having a 60BP STAB in Bug Bite right after the first gym is something that only Riolu can really boast about, and it gets it's second STAB in Razor Leaf 4-5 levels later. Happiness evolution for Leavanny, but with how happiness evolutions seem to go in this game, it should happen around the third gym.
I think what would end up bringing him down is his performance in the 2nd and 3rd gyms, although he comes back strong in the 4th and 5th.
Any significant issues he has that I'm missing? I think he could have High Tier potential.
Have you been catching it at Lvl 2-4, or waited until Doubles Grass (15%) chance where it's found at Lvl 10-11? Seems it'd be advantageous to skip the 4-6 levels where it has to rely on Tackle for offense.
Having a 60BP STAB in Bug Bite right after the first gym is something that only Riolu can really boast about, and it gets it's second STAB in Razor Leaf 4-5 levels later. Happiness evolution for Leavanny, but with how happiness evolutions seem to go in this game, it should happen around the third gym.
I think what would end up bringing him down is his performance in the 2nd and 3rd gyms, although he comes back strong in the 4th and 5th.
Any significant issues he has that I'm missing? I think he could have High Tier potential.
It doesn't have high tier potential. Catching it in doubles grass means that you wait until after the first gym to do so; you might as well get it early so it can provide a bit of support with String Shot. Anyway, although it has nice STABs, its power drops significantly as it advances through the game - when you get X-scissor (and, around the same time, leaf blade), you are nearing Skyla; before that, you have to contend with Bug Bite / Razor Leaf. There's a serious lack of things for it to train on in BW2 (no liepards everywhere), it's frail, not overwhelmingly strong, not very fast... it deserves low / mid; at the very least, it's pretty good for cheesing a large portion of the Elite Four members.
Not that I don't agree with it in Mid, but won't Pokemon don't have to contend with a 60 BP STAB off their better offensive stat until their 30s?
Even Magnemite doesn't get Electro Ball until Level 34.
Quite a few actually. Drillbur (Dig), Sandshrew (Dig), Darumaka (Fire Punch), Scraggy (Brick Break).. just out of the top of my head.
Dig is 80 BP, Fire Punch/Brick Break are 75. Scraggy's main stab is actually payback because he's outrun by everything (i.e. 100 BP payback). Darumaka gets Thrash somewhere along the line: it outdamages Fire Punch for what's its worth. Sandshrew gets Magnitude and a ridiculously early promotion (L22 wth). Drilbur gets Hone Claws to boost the power of Dig.
In comparison, Leavanny doesn't really have most of these save an early promotion. Swords Dance is really late for Leavanny and she doesn't get better stabs until x-scissor. Leavanny is definitely not a candidate for High Tier, but it's pretty good for Mid because Swords Dance + Leaf Blade is decent (although 75/80/70 bulk is kind of iffy).also the swadloon stage is super stagnant asdf
also i'm pretty sure magnemite can metal sound destroy things in his 'stagnant' period which is when he just evolves into magnezone, and he can still support with twave, something that leavanny lacks (unless you are seriously thinking of keeping string shot anywhere after burgh)
In comparison, Leavanny doesn't really have most of these save an early promotion. Swords Dance is really late for Leavanny and she doesn't get better stabs until x-scissor. Leavanny is definitely not a candidate for High Tier, but it's pretty good for Mid because Swords Dance + Leaf Blade is decent (although 75/80/70 bulk is kind of iffy).
also i'm pretty sure magnemite can metal sound destroy things in his 'stagnant' period which is when he just evolves into magnezone, and he can still support with twave, something that leavanny lacks (unless you are seriously thinking of keeping string shot anywhere after burgh)
hm. many people already stated that scraggy is awesome, but what about timburr? it now gets the elemental punches from move tutors, and drain punch. the only thing it's lacking is mach punch, but i suppose that's not a issue. here's the list of the tutor moves it gets(as a conkeldurr):
block
drain punch
fire punch
helping hand
ice punch
knock off
low kick
sleep talk
snore
superpower
thunderpunch
even though you need trading to fully evolve it, i think it's viable.
block
drain punch
fire punch
helping hand
ice punch
knock off
low kick
sleep talk
snore
superpower
thunderpunch
even though you need trading to fully evolve it, i think it's viable.
It's not viable because not everyone can trade.
fine then. talk about gurdurr, and slap an eviolite on it :P
Eviolite != No Lucky Egg
FINE. i got it. no gurdurr/conkeldurr. what about heracross then? he's the only other fighting type i can think of you get relatively early on, bar scraggy.
Ehm I think only like two people rated Hera so far. I strongly stand for Top.
IIRC trade access was never on grounds for being considered unviable in an in-game tier list :O
Timburr seems like it'd be a little bit worse than in B/W1 but not overly so, there are far more Poison types, Timburr itself comes a lot later and there are other good Fighting types to pick from (Heracross and Lucario particularly) that pack more punch early on. I'd still personally say it's a solid Upper-Mid mind, Lower-Mid if you're stuck with Gurrdurr.
I'd also vouch for Onix being rock Bottom (get it? Because rocks? *shotdead*), as always. Virtually offenseless, rare, poor movepool and outclassed by pretty much any other Rock or Ground type. Oh, trade evo too, even though the item for that isn't really difficult to find at all, can just get a Magnemite with Magnet Pull, go to Virbank and either catch em or thief the item.
Maybe not "unviable", but also not "widely available". Same as, for example, Liberty Pass or Colosseum Bonus Disc. You could argue that if trading would be staple, then so should trading with other games, and that would make tier lists completely pointless. Feel free to read opening posts of RSE and RBY tier topics for example, as they both mention trading. So do current tier lists on Smogon main site (like Platinum).
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