CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 10a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[smallvizier]

I feel that both Draco Meteor and Overheat go against the nature of the CAP because they lower its special attack, leaving it vulnerable to get set up on.

I don't really follow you here - perhaps you could expand on that thought.

The way I see it, CaP10 is going to have to do a lot of switching in and out anyway - we're trying to rig it so it can't handle a wide variety of pokes with just one setup, so it stands to reason that there'll be two or three enemies that it needs to run away from.

If CaP10 is struggling with half the enemy team and switching in and out frequently anyway, messing up its Special Attack doesn't really change that. It gives the opponent a little more confidence that they can switch in, sure. That just means when I'm picking my moveset I have to balance the extra power vs (say) Metagross against the likelihood that I'll be worse equipped to handle the 'random other' threat that switches in after him.

Seems to me that's exactly the kind of decision-making we want CaP10 to induce. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Banryu]

I feel that both Draco Meteor and Overheat go against the nature of the CAP because they lower its special attack, leaving it vulnerable to get set up on.

I don't really follow you here - perhaps you could expand on that thought.

The way I see it, CaP10 is going to have to do a lot of switching in and out anyway - we're trying to rig it so it can't handle a wide variety of pokes with just one setup, so it stands to reason that there'll be two or three enemies that it needs to run away from.

If CaP10 is struggling with half the enemy team and switching in and out frequently anyway, messing up its Special Attack doesn't really change that. It gives the opponent a little more confidence that they can switch in, sure. That just means when I'm picking my moveset I have to balance the extra power vs (say) Metagross against the likelihood that I'll be worse equipped to handle the 'random other' threat that switches in after him.

Seems to me that's exactly the kind of decision-making we want CaP10 to induce. What do the rest of you think?

Err, yeah, I beg to differ with what ST says, I think Overheat and Draco Meteor fit CAP-10's concept BECAUSE they leave it vulnerable to being set up on like that. :0 The important thing here is that it accomplishes its mission of KOing Metagross (Overheat) or Kingdra (DM). If its offensive capability is lowered afterward, that just keeps it from being a sweeper even more, which judging by people's Charge Beam arguments, is a good thing for you lot.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Going down the rest of the list. *Sigh* Most of these are really trivially useful and won't be used primarily or even secondarily on virtually all sets. Regardless, there will be a lot of room for creativity with movepools because of how many things are allowed and how few of them are actually needed. That's good.

Outrage
Allow

I really don't like the idea of being locked into a move like Outrage for multiple turns, especially on CAP10, but it is the only way to OHKO Kingdra on physical CAP10 sets. It also scores KOs on the other dragons, for what it's worth, although you're probably using a Dragon move only if you're really scared of Kingdra. (It also hits Latias the hardest of every available option, for what it's worth)

Calcs:

252 Jolly Life Orb Pokemon Outrage  
  
  vs. Adamant Life Orb Kingdra : 91.4% - 107.9%
  vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Latias : 91.4% - 107.9%
  vs. Naive Life Orb Salamence : 92.4% - 108.8%
  vs. 224/0 Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 70.2% - 82.8%

Sucker Punch
Allow

This is another whatever option. It's generally unreliable, low PP, easy to play around, and gives the Pokemon it will hit hard the option to set up in its face as it tries to Sucker Punch. We have Payback, which in all significant cases hits harder than Sucker Punch, so give it Sucker Punch too. Sucker Punch has a nice niche in being able to sucker KOs against those attackers who want to smack you really hard before you revenge KO them. I say go for it, no need even for calculations here.

Pursuit
Disallow

Why is Pursuit even an option? If our goal is to counter pursuit-bait with CAP10, we want to force them out, and we can do this sufficiently with things like Payback. Pursuit reminds me too much of arguments that people were using in favor of Shadow Tag on CAP10, which we all remember. I also much prefer the notion of the opponent being able to switch out of CAP10 for fear of being countered. For the record, it really hurts most of the Pokemon weak to it.

Calcs:

252 Jolly Life Orb Pokemon Pursuit  
  
  vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Latias : 61.6% - 72.8%
  vs. 0/4 Timid Life Orb Gengar : 97.3% - 114.9%
  vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Scarf Rotom-H : 65.3% - 77.7%
  vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Specs Celebi : 49.7% - 59.1%
  vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Azelf : 77.4% - 91.1%

You'll wish they'd stayed in and that you'd used Payback instead. Trust me.

252 Adamant Life Orb Pokemon Payback  
  
  vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Latias : 83.4% - 98.7%
  vs. 0/4 Timid Life Orb Gengar : 133.3% - 157.1%
  vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Scarf Rotom-H : 90.9% - 107.4%
  vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Specs Celebi : 67.8% - 80.1%
  vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Azelf : 106.2% - 125.3%

Dark Pulse
Allow
It offers some decent coverage against some things. Most notable of the offensive threats weak to this are things that are generally pursuit-bait, so Latias, Rotom-A, offensive Celebi, NP Azelf, Gengar, and that's all that comes to mind offhand.

Calcs:

252 Timid Life Orb Pokemon Dark Pulse  
  
  vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Latias : 45% - 53%
  vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Scarf Rotom-H : 65.3% - 77.7%
  vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Specs Celebi : 49.7% - 58.5%
  vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Azelf : 77.4% - 91.1%
  vs. Timid Life Orb Gengar : 82% - 96.6%

None of these are really significant, and every single one of them tends to be hit way harder on the physical side of the spectrum. Furthermore, every single one of these except Celebi outspeeds CAP10, making Payback the best option. Anyways, Dark Pulse works for special variants of CAP10 to beat these threats, so I say allow.

Low Kick
Allow

Why isn't this allowed already, yet? It has many of the perks of Superpower, but is reliable over many turns. Furthermore, it hits TTar and Snorlax the same as Superpower, but due to its reliability actually threatens Curselax at +1. Also, for the record, it barely taps Blissey.

Calcs:

252 Jolly Life Orb Pokemon Low Kick  
  
  vs. 24/252 Calm Leftovers Blissey : 38.4% - 45.4%
  vs. 168/120 Careful Leftovers Snorlax +1 : 40.6% - 47.7%
  vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 123.9% - 145.9%
  vs. 40/0 Jolly Choice Band Weavile : 123.7% - 147.1%

Superpower
Allow

Superpower is controversial only because it can 2HKO Blissey if it switches into it. Meanwhile, Superpower OHKOs Tyranitar and Weavile, but leaves CAP10 open to Snorlax.

Calcs:

252 Jolly Life Orb Pokemon Superpower  
  
  vs. 24/252 Calm Leftovers Blissey : 76.4% - 90.1%
  vs. 168/120 Careful Leftovers Snorlax +1 : 40.6% - 47.7%
  vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 123.9% - 145.9%
  vs. 40/0 Jolly Choice Band Weavile : 248.8% - 292.8%

That is sweeper CAP10 on the physical side, mind you. Let's consider mixed sweeper CAP10, which is where it would be more prevalent. (To punch through Bliss!)

40 Naive Life Orb Pokemon Superpower  
  
  vs. 24/252 Calm Leftovers Blissey : 61.2% - 72.1%
  vs. 168/120 Careful Leftovers Snorlax +1 : 32.6% - 38.6%
  vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 98.7% - 116.5%
  vs. 40/0 Jolly Choice Band Weavile : 197.9% - 233.7%

Notice that now you fail to 2HKO Blissey unless you catch it on the switch and have SR down. I think these show that it'll definitely be powerful, but not too powerful so as to put CAP10 over the top.

Focus Blast
Allow

Focus Blast and Aura Sphere are the easiest to allow of this list. You need to consider that Fighting-type attacks are excellent as physical attacks. Everything that is hit significantly in the metagame by Fighting-type attacks is done on its weaker physical defense than special defense. The list here includes: Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar (In Sand), Weavile (He dies to a strong wind), etc. Focus Blast is an option for special variants of CAP10, and honestly, because it fails to do any serious damage to Blissey and Snorlax, I say it's OK for it to have a significantly higher and more consistent base power in 120. (Superpower isn't consistent) Move likely won't be viable with a 70% accuracy, though.

Calcs:

252 Timid Life Orb Pokemon Focus Blast  
  
  vs. 24/232 Calm Leftovers Blissey : 22.5% - 26.8%
  vs. 168/220 Careful Leftovers Snorlax : 35% - 41.4%
  vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 89.2% - 105%
  vs. 40/0 Jolly Choice Band Weavile : 197.9% - 233.7%

Aura Sphere
Allow

Same reasoning as Focus Blast. It's more reliable, yet hits far weaker. It fails to even OHKO Tyranitar at max investment, so it's pretty worthless. I say allow it on principle because it won't be winning CAP10 any awards.

Calcs:

252 Timid Life Orb Pokemon Aura Sphere  
  
  vs. 24/232 Calm Leftovers Blissey : 17% - 20.4%
  vs. 168/220 Careful Leftovers Snorlax : 26.2% - 31%
  vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 66.1% - 78.7%
  vs. 40/0 Jolly Choice Band Weavile : 148.5% - 175.9%

Ok, I'm done with these calculations now. Phew.

 

[Banryu]

Low Kick
Allow

Why isn't this allowed already, yet? It has many of the perks of Superpower, but is reliable over many turns.

...err... seems to me you just answered your own question. :0 That's how I'd answer it, anyway.

Also, the point [Zarator] made about useless moves goes both ways. Sure, we can allow moves that ARE useless, but that doesn't mean we necessarily SHOULD allow every useless move strolling across CAP-10's path to be in its movepool.

Just wanted to throw this out there again.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

...err... seems to me you just answered your own question. :0 That's how I'd answer it, anyway.

Except you didn't even read the rest of it, where it lists that it cannot beat the defensive giant in Blissey (Protip: That's gigantic) and is only otherwise notable against Curselax over Superpower.

Just wanted to throw this out there again.

Why does everyone seem to think that just because a move is allowed that it has to be on CAP10's movepool? The point, at this stage, is to define what is fair and what is not fair on CAP10 given the checks we came up with in the earlier thread. That doesn't mean that you have to give it everything on the list when you submit your movepool, though..

 

[zarator]

@zarator
think about what i said in a different light;if we are trying to make a poke that can counter various pokes, then why waste time with a move that will do little to help in that regard?
that move will in no way assist us in countering anything, thus making it a waste. i see no point in allowing something that will in no way assist the concept.

Also, the point you made about useless moves goes both ways. Yes, we can allow moves that ARE useless, but that doesn't mean we should allow every useless move that comes strolling into CAP-10's path to be in its movepool (necessarily). AKA, what Ferron just said up above me.

That is up to the movepool creators, not up to you. Even if Sucker Punch and Payback are both allowed, you are free to submit a movepool which lacks one of them. I don't see why, if I had to create a movepool which, say, includes Sucker Punch but not Payback, I should be forbidden to do so just because someone like you deemed it "unneccessary". So, unless you prove that one of these moves are broken, you don't have any right to disallow them.

Sucker Punch

- In my opinion, it's either this or Payback. Both moves address the same threats, just in different ways. Payback goes second and hits harder, Sucker Punch goes first and is more of a revenge-killing move, and as mentioned, gives CAP-10 the possibility (?) of beating things that would normally outspeed it. However, since CAP-10 is really only doing any significant amount of damage with either STAB or SE attacks, so outside of Latias, Gengar, Starmie, Azelf, and to a lesser extent Rotom-A, it's not gonna be doing much good (although feel free to prove me wrong if it can allow CAP-10 to beat things like Jolteon). In my opinion, Payback does the same thing but better. Superfluous with Payback, and therefore not needed IMO.

Again, not needed does not equal "disallow".

Pursuit

- Given that CAP-10 pretty much needs supereffective damage to beat things, I don't see this as being very useful since it's either weak or a revenge-killing move for specific things that are weak to it (and a lot of the things we WANT to address that are weak to Dark are faster than CAP-10, are they not?). Do we WANT CAP-10 to be a revenge killer? Because for some reason I thought that would go against its concept, but I've misinterpreted the concept before, so... I say not needed, but willing to allow just because it doesn't address the same threats that Payback and Sucker Punch do, but I don't see him using it effectively.

"not needed, SO willing to allow" should be the right mindset, but this is a step in the right direction nonetheless^^

Focus Blast

- Seems like an inferior option to Superpower or Cross Chop to me. Aren't most things that care about being hit by Fighting hit harder on the physical end? Not needed, as far as I can tell.

Aura Sphere - Same as Focus Blast only more so. Not needed

Same as above. "Not needed THEN allowed" is the correct way.


Guys, we are not creating the movepool here, we are deciding what the movepool creators are allowed or not to put in their submissions. Unless some of these moves are broken, you don't have any right to deny them just because you can't be bothered scrolling the Shoddy team builder movelist.

EDIT: Oh, what Rising Dusk said works too.

 

[Seizen]

Overheat: While it certainly fits the concept, and even goes to the extremes of killing Steel-types, I cannot see why Metagross and Jirachi, the only two Steel-types not killed by HP Fire or hit harder by STAB, are not killed by EQ or EP. If Overheat OHKOs either of them, then allow it. If it doesn't OHKO, then surely there is no use for it. While it would be an excellent move, if it has no real use, then we have no need to impliment it, as it would never get on a moveset due to the fact that other moves outperform it.

Fire Punch: Is Fire Punch allowed, disallowed or controversial? As it isn't on the list, and I'm wondering where it is supposed to be. I can see where it would find use, as otherwise physical side was a neglected movepool to special (no physical-HP), and it isn't extremely powerful, nor does it have a lot of coverage. On the other hand, I can see why people wouldn't like it.

 

[QuimicVital]

I think this thing should get Whirlpool to trap specific threats and beating them, and also being able to send out another counter... Although that doesn't fit at all the concept.

 

[Banryu]

Except you didn't even read the rest of it, where it lists that it cannot beat the defensive giant in Blissey (Protip: That's gigantic) and is only otherwise notable against Curselax over Superpower.

I did read it, and for the most part found the fact that Superpower CAN'T be used repeatedly to be better for the competetive movepool than something that can, but I guess your point was that, like Cross Chop, it's something different than Superpower, so I'll give you that.

Why does everyone seem to think that just because a move is allowed that it has to be on CAP10's movepool? The point, at this stage, is to define what is fair and what is not fair on CAP10 given the checks we came up with in the earlier thread. That doesn't mean that you have to give it everything on the list when you submit your movepool, though..

Oh. Hmm. Looks like another misunderstanding on my part. Dx Aright, I get it, Allowed Attacking moves =/= movepool.
Also, Banny =/= everybody. :0 I didn't really notice anyone else who misunderstood that too and I don't think the exaggeration is necessary.

@ Zarator: Okay, I get it, thank you. =___= I think one example is plenty sufficient.

Soooo I guess I'm revising to Allow Sucker Punch, Allow Focus Blast, and Allow Aura Sphere. I'm also changing my verdict to Disallow Pursuit, for the reasons that Dusk lists.

@ Seizen: I think that Fire Punch is basically the physical translation of Flamethrower and Fire Blast, which have been said to be disallowed. Given that, we should probably disallow Fire Punch as well.

 

[Gazooki]

Just had a look through the list. Charge Beam's still controversial? It fits this little guy perfectly! It's unlikely that it'll carry more than one electric move, so the weak BP of this move sort of balances out the chance of a Sp. Atk raise. Specially based Magic Guard Life Orb sets might be a bit broken though...

I really don't agree with Outrage on this thing. It's already got Draco Meteor and some Ice attacks to deal with Dragons, and even though Latias is a big threat, it doesn't need to outright beat everything. Also, Pursuit probably isn't a great idea either, judging by the damage calcs above and by the fact we want our opponents to stay in so we can deal with them efficiently.

 

[McLuvdisc]

If CaP10 is struggling with half the enemy team and switching in and out frequently anyway, messing up its Special Attack doesn't really change that. It gives the opponent a little more confidence that they can switch in, sure. That just means when I'm picking my moveset I have to balance the extra power vs (say) Metagross against the likelihood that I'll be worse equipped to handle the 'random other' threat that switches in after him.

Seems to me that's exactly the kind of decision-making we want CaP10 to induce. What do the rest of you think?

Amen to that. Shocktrooper, I understand where you're coming from - it may seem strange to give a supposedly dependable Pokemon like CAP 10 access to moves that lower his special attack stat, especially since he's not exactly an offensive star to begin with. But access to these moves allows CAP 10 to threaten with a single, very powerful, super-effective attack, which will either force the Pokemon he's built to counter out or destroy it if it tries to bluff. Either way, by the end of the turn, CAP 10 will likely have accomplished its job (unless its up against Bronzong, who really seems to wall it good). The special attack drop takes away from its staying power and forces it out, limiting its potential as a sweeper and making sure people will use it the way it was intended.

Edit: @Gazooki: Keep in mind, you won't be running Outrage and DM on the same set. You're correct, the former would probably only be used only against Latias...but isn't countering one specific Pokemon exactly what our little shrimp is supposed to do? Running Outrage is also a big risk, since things like Metagross can switch in and annihilate you with Earthquake. If your team really has a Latias problem, Outrage is worth your while. Otherwise, it's slightly inferior to DM, so what's the harm in allowing it?

@QuimicVital: If you think Whirlpool doesn't fit the concept, why are you recommending it? Anyway, you're right. If you go back into the ability discussion, you'll see a lot of debate over Shadow Tag, an auto-trapping ability. Most of the community agreed that trapping was overpowered and would be antithetical to what this CAP is supposed to achieve - it's supposed to force specific Pokemon out, not provide a guaranteed kill.

 

[Banryu]

Just had a look through the list. Charge Beam's still controversial? It fits this little guy perfectly! It's unlikely that it'll carry more than one electric move, so the weak BP of this move sort of balances out the chance of a Sp. Atk raise. Specially based Magic Guard Life Orb sets might be a bit broken though...

I really don't agree with Outrage on this thing. It's already got Draco Meteor and some Ice attacks to deal with Dragons, and even though Latias is a big threat, it doesn't need to outright beat everything. Also, Pursuit probably isn't a great idea either, judging by the damage calcs above and by the fact we want our opponents to stay in so we can deal with them efficiently.

...oh. Well. Way to prove me wrong, LOL.

As Rising Dusk was just saying me, moves that we decide are allowed are not necessarily going to be in the thing's movepool. If my understanding is correcte (by this point, I hope so), then the purpose of this thread is primarily to rule out moves that CAP-10 SHOULDN'T know, based SOLELY on the competetive aspects of the critter and the metagame.

So basically, the fact that it already 'has' (which technically, it doesn't) Draco Meteor doesn't mean it shouldn't get Outrage. ...well maybe it does, but in any case, it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Keep in mind it's not should have VS should not have, it's allow VS disallow, which is different.

 

[zarator]

I don't really understand why Outrage is even discussed upon. Can you tell me 1 - yes, I said 1 - Pokémon who uses Outrage effectively without having STAB on it? I don't see how Outrage would even be used on CAP10. Let's allow it and call it a day. If it happens to be in the tutor movepool of someone, no one will notice it anyway

 

[Korski]

I actually think that both Sucker Punch and Pursuit should be Controversial based on their functionality as they relate to the concept (defensively versatile countermon, just to throw it out there again).

Sucker Punch as a priority move is easily worked around, as many have said and is in fact true, but in terms of utility I believe it is already outclassed by both Payback and Crunch, which are both Allowed and are functionally more in-tune with the concept than is Sucker Punch. There is next to no reason for this CAP to run priority, especially one that hits four of the nine OU Pokemon that naturally outspeed it for reasonable SE damage. Sucker Punch is outdamaged by Payback on four of the seven Dark-weak OU Pokemon (unless Rotom-A or Celebi are Scarfed, in which case Payback outdamages six of the seven, Dusknoir being the only exception), and it is less reliable than Crunch against the other three, so its ONLY selling point is priority, in which case, it appears to be just a cheap way of getting a hit off on Latias, Gengar, Starmie, Azelf, Scarf Rotom-A, and Scarf Celebi without taking damage beforehand. I'm not saying it's broken; I'm saying it's redundant and should be voted on on those grounds, as its contribution to CAP's movepool would be as a form of security against a group of Pokemon that could potentially serve as relatively good offensive checks to CAP 10 and nothing more. While even 266 LO Sucker Punch won't OHKO many of these checks, it does enough damage to find room on a late-game sweeper set that would certainly fear being outsped, even with its bulk.

Pursuit is similar in that it is functionally dissimilar (and I'd say inferior, in terms of the concept) to both Payback and Crunch. Pursuit trapping is best done by Tyranitar and Scizor, who have great Attack stats, Choice Bands to get more power behind their attacks, STAB, or some combination of the three to abuse the strategy effectively. CAP 10 can only boast one of those things, which is a Choice Band, which I can guarantee it won't use very effectively. However, Pursuit trapping is effective for whittling away HP off of the predominantly offensive Dark-weak Pokemon in OU, especially when they want to switch out to avoid such damage. I think the community should decide whether or not this is a desirable ability for CAP to have.

Calcs are one thing, but in these two situations, I believe it is function that is up for debate. I, personally, am more inclined to Disallow both, based off the opinion that they are redundant damage-output-wise and allow CAP certain functions that I don't personally believe it should have. But because I also believe the moves aren't broken, I say allow the community to vote on them.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Going down a list of some more options I thought over and others brought up.

Fire Punch
Allow

Fire Punch has a 75 BP, which is more on par with the 70 BP of HPFire. Flamethrower and Fire Blast have 95 and 120 respectively, which is in part why they are a problem and Hidden Power is not. For these reasons, I think we should allow Fire Punch. For the record, the bonus 5 base power it has over HPFire might even encourage people to use physical sets more if they really need a reliable Fire-type attack (since Overheat isn't reliable).

Calcs:

252 Jolly Life Orb Pokemon Fire Punch  
  
  vs. 252/176 Impish Shed Shell Skarmory : 28.7% - 34.1%
  vs. 24/252 Calm Leftovers Blissey : 23.9% - 28.2%
  vs. 252/80 Sassy Leftovers Bronzong : 39.1% - 46.2%
  vs. 252/220 Bold Leftovers Celebi : 29.2% - 34.7%
  vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Jirachi : 39.1% - 46.5%
  vs. 252/12 Adamant Choice Band Metagross : 34.6% - 41.2%
  vs. 0/4 Adamant Life Orb Lucario : 76.2% - 89.7%
  vs. 248/0 Adamant Choice Band Scizor : 92.1% - 109.6%
  vs. 252/144 Relaxed Shed Shell Forretress : 55.4% - 65.5%
  vs. Naive Choice Scarf Magnezone : 50.5% - 59.8%
  vs. Timid Leftovers Abomasnow : 125.9% - 148.3%
  vs. 4/0 Timid Focus Sash Roserade : 98.5% - 116%

Only notable KOs are on Roserade, since it has lower physical defense, and the ~6% higher damage output on Bronzong. Regardless, Zong still isn't 2HKO'd even after SR.

Aqua Jet
Allow

Nothing about Aqua Jet is too powerful to be in CAP10's movepool. The only argument that can possibly be made against it is that priority gives us the capacity for Anti-Lead sets. However, remember that no matter what is done, unless CAP10 gets Stealth Rock or Taunt, it will be outclassed by many, many other options and such Anti-Lead sets will be revered as mere gimmicks.

Calcs:

252 Adamant Life Orb Pokemon Aqua Jet  
  
  vs. Naive Choice Scarf Heatran : 41.5% - 48.9%
  vs. Naive Life Orb Infernape : 63.5% - 75.8%
  vs. 4/0 Jolly Focus Sash Aerodactyl : 66.2% - 78.1%
  vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 34.6% - 40.9%
  vs. 252/40 Impish Leftovers Gliscor : 28.8% - 34.5%
  vs. 252/168 Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 23.3% - 27.6%
  vs. 0/4 Jolly Choice Band Mamoswine : 46.5% - 54.8%

Note how not even the terribly frail Infernape is OHKO'd by Aqua Jet from an Adamant nature, no less.

 

[TaiCrunch]

I think Charge Beam should be allowed. With its relatively low attacking stats, being able to pull off setup with it will most likely be situational at best (and only ideally late-game), which will make Thunderbolt/Thunder the preferred choice on most sets, even on a set running Substitute.

yay calcs!

Assuming Modest Life Orb, 252 Special Attack, no boosts

Impish 252 HP/252 Special Def. Skarmory: 50.9% - 61.1%
Adamant 156 HP/ 0 Special Def. Gyarados: 91.9% - 110.3%, OHKO after SR
Adamant 0 HP/ 0 Special Def. Salamence: 35% - 41.7%
Timid 136 HP/ 0 Special Def Starmie: 75.3% - 89.5%, possible OHKO after SR

 

[Anachronism]

This thing can create 101+ subs without hp investment, and it can therefore set up on blissey fairly easily. Hell, now that we have given it Magic Guard it doesn't even fear toxic anymore, so it could use a recovery move instead if it wants. I don't think it fits the concept at all, and therefore we might as well disallow it. There are only 2 directions for it to go in: bad or good. If it is bad then what is the point? If it is good then that means it wrecks the concept.

 

[beej]

This thread has widdled down in activity, and I think we have a fine idea of what attacking moves should be allowed/disallowed into the movepool submissions. An attacking moves poll will be going up shortly, in which people can vote to allow or disallow moves marked as controversial.