CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 11a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Fuzznip]

Attacking Moves Discussion

Please read this entire OP before posting.

Our CAP so far:

Supporting Material

Name: Perfect Mate

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Justification:
This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?
• What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?
• What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?
• Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate

Typing: Fighting / Dark
Stat Spread: 90 HP / 85 Atk / 80 Def / 105 SpA / 80 SpD / 110 Spe
Abilities: Volt Absorb / Lightningrod
Name: Voodoom
An "Attacking Move" is a move that deals damage to an opponent as its main purpose. All other moves are considered "Non-Attacking Moves." As a general rule, any move that can be used under Taunt is considered to be an Attacking Move. However, there are a few exceptional moves that deal a small amount of damage, but their primary battle purpose is based on a secondary move effect, and are therefore considered Non-Attacking moves. For example, Rapid Spin and Knock Off are considered to be Non-Attacking Moves, even though they can be used under Taunt. U-turn can be used as an attacking move on Pokemon such as Scizor, which has a high Attack stat and gets STAB on the move; however, on Pokemon such as Fidgit, it is used more as a scouting or support move. I have the sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered Attacking or Non-Attacking Moves for a given Pokemon.

All moves will be categorized as Competitive, Non-Competitive, or Required.

• Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given Pokemon. This categorization is applicable depending on the Pokemon. Sometimes a move will be competitive on one Pokemon and non-competitive for another.
• Required moves are moves that must be included in the final movepool, and are generally not up for discussion. A list of common Required moves can be found in the movepool guide.

The list of moves will be separated into three sections indicating the "status" of the move in the current discussion -- Allowed, Disallowed, Controversial, or Pending.

• Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokemon's final movepool
• Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to not be allowed in the Pokemon's final movepool
• Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
• Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are Allowed, Disallowed, or Controversial

The community should make posts arguing for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed. I will re-categorize moves as the discussion progresses.

Allowed:

Dark Pulse
Payback
Crunch
Brick Break
Focus Blast
Focus Punch
Aura Sphere
Vacuum Wave
Stone Edge
Superpower
Ice Beam
Blizzard
Close Combat
Earthquake
Power Gem
Psychic
Mach Punch
Pursuit
Shadow Sneak

Pending:

Controversial:

Elemental Punches
Paleo Wave
Sucker Punch

Disallowed:

Electric Moves
Grass Moves
Fire Moves

Move Discussion Posting Rules

• The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.
• Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the Pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.
• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.
• I will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.
• Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.
• I am the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". I may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.
• All moves that are considered Competitive for this Pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).
• If you disagree with my categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.
• If you believe this Pokemon should have a new signature move, PM Fuzznip with the idea first. However, do realize that there is almost zero chance of him accepting it.

 

[Yllnath]

I want to point out one weird entry in the controversial list, the elemental punches. Because just a little further, under Disallowed, you mention "All other fire, ice and electric moves". This might cause confusion.

However, that was not the point I wanted to make. I want to argue that Stone Edge be pushed to Allowed right away, as without Stone Edge, we have no way at all of dealing with Zapdos between Togekiss and CAP11. Especially as Ice Beam has been put up as disallowed. And you yourself concluded in the counters discussion that we should avoid Zapdos completely walling this combination.
Power Gem might be the best rock move on the special side, but I don't think it warrants taking a move in the movepool, when it would do the exact same thing as Hidden Power Rock. Of course, you would then lose your Hidden Power just to deal with Zapdos (on purely special variants of CAP, that is), but I feel that is actually preferred. Having to waste HP on dealing with Zapdos when running a special set, most likely as a NP receiver, and given that having CAP11 be sweeping isn't in the concept, removing some coverage by having to lock into HP rock just to deal with Zapdos is a good thing.

So, I would like to see Stone Edge be moved to allowed, to deal with Zapdos, and Power Gem to be moved to disallowed.

 

[Snow Leopard]

I would like to see Close Combat added to his allowed repertoire, because it will diversify his mixed attacking capabilities, and also allow some wiggle room when it comes to predictability.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I would like for Close Combat to be allowed, as it won't take away anything from CAP11 while allowing it to deal with some threats, such as Blissey, much easier. It provides a very solid backup option against many special walls or tanks that CAP11 couldn't deal with if Togekiss couldn't get off the NP Pass for some reason.

The reason Close Combat is a better option than many other physical Fighting moves is that the other ones have crippling drawbacks or a lack of power. Hammer Arm and Superpower have stat-lowering drawbacks that really hurt CAP11, Brick Break and Submission aren't really strong enough, but Close Combat allows CAP11 to pick off weakened opponents that could take a Special move.

Close Combat isn't nearly broken coming of an 85 Attack stat, especially if CAP11 doesn't invest enough in attack.

Also, let's move Earthquake to Disallowed. What do we need it for? Most Pokemon take more damage from the Fighting/Dark STAB offense combo. All it hits SE (in OU) that Fighting/Dark doesn't is Lolectivire, Infernape (who is already outsped and badly damaged by Fighting), Jirachi (meh.), Jolteon (Volt Absorb), Metagross (Who takes a lot from STAB special attacks), and Tentafail.

Earthquake isn't needed, and we can use the extra VGM!

 

[Quilph]

I support adding stone edge as a move for Voodoom, to stop Zapdos from walling the duo. He needs something strong enough that can score an OHKO if possible, and I don't know of many other ways that would be accomplished.

 

[doominic77]

I think CAP 11 (I can't wait till I can call him Voodoom) should get Shadow Sneak and Shadow Ball. Shadow Sneak because CAP 11 should have a priority move to use against Rotom Formes. Shadow Ball because he's a Voodoo doll, he may be Dark/Fighting but he looks pretty ghostly.

 

[LeBron_James]

I think that Close Combat should be moved to allowed. This would mean that you have a decent option for physical STAB on mixed and physical sets making them much more viable and giving them a way of dealing with special walls.

 

[Scoopapa]

I'm pretty sure Close Combat should be allowed, as basically it's only use is to hit Blissey, who walls Togekiss. I really see no reason why it would be OP, since base 85 Attack is not that great, and the defense drops suck on something that enjoys decent 90/80/80 defenses (outside of something like Swords Dance + Sucker Punch, I don't see it being used on anything but Blissey). One of Doug's flavor moves could actually replace CC as a tool against Blissey, but that is for a later thread : P.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Also, let's move Earthquake to Disallowed. What do we need it for? Most Pokemon take more damage from the Fighting/Dark STAB offense combo. All it hits SE (in OU) that Fighting/Dark doesn't is Lolectivire, Infernape (who is already outsped and badly damaged by Fighting), Jirachi (meh.), Jolteon (Volt Absorb), Metagross (Who takes a lot from STAB special attacks), and Tentafail.

Earthquake isn't needed, and we can use the extra VGM!

This is exactly the wrong attitude to take for these discussion threads. We should not disallow moves that are required by T-M or M-M simply because they are required and "use up a VGM slot". That they are required by T-M or M-M is intentionally used as a limitation for final movepools.

Moral of the story: If there is no competitive reason to disallow a move by virtue that it would break the CAP or directly supersede/circumvent/override the concept (which Earthquake most certainly does not do), then it should not be disallowed.

Also, this will be your all's only warning: ONLY SUGGEST COMPETITIVE MOVES IN THIS DISCUSSION THREAD. Needle Arm, Twineedle, ThunderShock, and whatever you might come up with for flavor are not competitive moves, so they are automatically allowed.

Anyway, my initial list:

Superpower: ALLOW

Strong STAB Fighting-type attack that lets CAP11 actually punch through Blissey and Snorlax. We've got to consider that the physical Fighting-type moves are only ever going to get used for Blissey/Snorlax considering that the Attack stat is only base 85. I feel that beating both Blissey and Snorlax, or at least keeping them at bay, is a good thing. It gives Togekiss more chances to setup and avoid status at the same time.
​

Close Combat: ALLOW

For similar reasons to Superpower. This move, instead of lowering Attack, lowers Special Defense. That's fine, if you ask me, as Voodoom's bulk is something he really doesn't want to sacrifice too seriously. It will inevitably force him out if something fast comes out to play on the switch if predicted. Similarly, I am OK with beating Blissey/Lax, so this should get a green light.
​

Mach Punch: ALLOW

Mach Punch is priority in Fighting form. I think that FMSS to do 85%ish to Tyranitar is fair game. Outside of Tyranitar, Mach Punch isn't doing much at all. I see no reason to disallow, therefore it should be allowed.
​

Earthquake: ALLOW

Ground-type attacks form mostly redundant coverage with Fighting-type attacks, and the Fighting-type attacks in this case score STAB. Even with EQ on its movepool, the added "coverage" is minimal (might be useful against the stray Jolteon at best) and it will not break or add the coverage Voodoom would need to be too enormous of a threat. This should be allowed.
​

Stone Edge: ALLOW

An above poster mentioned why Zapdos should not be a hard counter to CAP11. Stone Edge at the minimum should be allowed to help combat this, even if Voodoom is really not going to put it to great use at all. (Stone Miss, no STAB, etc) Another case of "no reason to disallow, therefore allow."
​

Shadow Ball: ALLOW

Non-STAB Dark Pulse, gives CAP11 perfect coverage. Fair trade, but trust me, this will never get used anyway. Allow.
​

Elemental Punches: DISALLOW

Just no. We're all hyped up and worried about coverage, and the elemental punches afford Voodoom nothing that we want and everything we don't want. They add Fire-, Ice-, and Electric-type attacks for the physical side of the spectrum and add a level of unpredictability that I think is dangerous to give such a powerful Pokemon as Voodoom. I think to err on the side of safety and considering that these really aren't doing anything specific that we want from Voodoom's movepool, there's every reason to disallow these and no reason to allow them.
​

Sucker Punch: DISALLOW

Starmie already has a hard enough time predicting the switch in to get in on Aura Sphere and not Dark Pulse. Starmie is faster, and once in, should threaten Voodoom with Hydro Pump. Sucker Punch only serves to give Voodoom a fallback to beat Starmie with, and that is too much if you ask me. I say disallow this.
​

 

[Arenn21]

I think that Thundershock at the very least should be allowed, due to Doug's backstory. It's weak enough that it wouldn't be much of a threat anyways, but it would allow it to hit bulky waters. I also support Stone Edge, because Zapdos is a huge problem for Togekiss, and would allow some wiggle room when flyers try to take down CAP 11.
EDIT: Ahehe, sorry Dusk. I posted this right after you did. But I agree with your reasoning.

 

[ShravanP]

Close Combat - Allowed
With base 85 Atk, a LO Voodoom will require 152 Atk EV's from a neutral nature to guarantee an OHKO on WishBliss after SR. When you're forced to take away that many EV's to manage the KO, it's far from becoming a deadly dual threat like Infernape. Voodoom will have to stick to its bigger special attack to become much of a sweeper threat.

EDIT: (changed from before)
Stone Edge - Allowed
I had earlier thought it was too powerful, but since CC allows us to anyway 2HKO Togekiss after SR, this move now becomes legitimately useful against Zapdos. I guess Togekiss will not be too great of a counter to CAP11 after all.

Power Gem - Allowed
With Stone edge out damaging this even with zero investment, there is no reason to disallow this.

 

[HeavyOctillery]

Agreed on Close Combat to be allowed; 'Kiss needs to have that damned Blissey out of its way. Beat Up would be good as a reliable Sub-breaker (plus I think Doug mentioed that as flavor before, which is what I assume scoopapa was alluding to).

 

[Ice-eyes]

I'm on the fence about Sucker Punch. The only things it's really useful to hit are the fast, powerful attackers like Starmie that threaten the core. It contributes to the concept, but actually doesn't have a whole lot of use outside that as Sucker Punch, even with STAB, doesn't do that much running off Voodoom's lower and likely uninvested Attack stat.

Similarly, the elemental punches are only going to be hitting very specific targets due to Voodoom's (nearly) unresisted STAB. I don't see any reason not to allow them - SE Elemental Punches do less than Close Combat or Dark Pulse or Aura Sphere in almost any given situation. Fire Punch only hits Breloom and Heracross, Ice Punch only hits Dragonite and Thunderpunch's only use is to nail bulky Gyarados (which iirc isn't KOd after Intimidate) - is it really worth it to give up a moveslot to any of them? That 'unpredictability' could be a good thing, allowing CAP 11 to support Togekiss by surprising and OHKOing the likes of Dragonite (one of the more notable stops to both Voodoom and Kiss).

 

[X-Act]

Power Gem is a move that nobody would really miss if it's not there, as HP Ice is probably better and does exactly the same thing. It should be noted that max SpA CAP11 only manages to 2HKO Physically Defensive Zapdos with Stealth Rock help via Power Gem (or HP Rock/Ice). It doesn't even 2HKO Specially Defensive Zapdos after Stealth Rock. For what's worth, only a few Pokemon actually get Power Gem too... but nonetheless, not giving Power Gem to CAP11 isn't exactly a big loss.

Stone Edge is a bit more difficult, though Physically Defensive Zapdos receives less than 50% damage even from max attack CAP11 (which would probably be a gimmick). However, even though Specially Defensive Zapdos receives more than 50% damage from max attack CAP11, it only receives 38% - 45% damage from 0 EVs in Atk and neutral nature CAP11, and hence it does just manage to 2HKO Zapdos with Stealth Rock (or OHKO if you get a CH). You still have only 80% accuracy though. Against Togekiss, it fares even worse, at about 35% - 41%, which doesn't 2HKO even after Stealth Rock on average. We need to remember that CAP11 has only 85 Base Atk. All things considering, I tend to want to put Stone Edge in Allowed. I still see Stone Edge on CAP11 as a gimmick, personally.

 

[Naxte]

I'd like to bring Paleo Wave up for discussion, and believe that it should be Allowed. Doing some damage calcs, A Timid LO 252 SpA Voodoom HP Rock/Power Gem does 49.1% - 58% to the standard Physically Defensive Zapdos. However, against Specially Defensive Zapdos, which is sure to become more common once Voodoom goes up, the same attack does 35.5% - 41.8%, which isn't quite a guaranteed 2HKO, even with Stealth Rock up (especially when factoring in Leftovers recovery for Zapdos). Conversely, even with no Atk investment and a Calm nature, the same Zapdos can do 53% - 63.6% to Voodoom with Drill Peck, a guaranteed 2HKO, even with SR up. As Zapdos is one of the most important Pokemon for Voodoom to be able to beat, this isn't good.

However, a Timid 252 SpA LO Voodoom Paleo Wave does 42.8% - 50.7% to Specially Defensive Zapdos, which is a guaranteed 2HKO with SR up, which makes Voodoom much more reliable at defeating Zapdos.

Without a move like it or Ice Beam, Zapdos stands a very good chance at just stalling it out, even with its best option (HP Rock). I understand why people might be hesitant about something like Ice Beam, but Paleo Wave has 10 less BP, still doesn't have STAB or anything on CAP11, and does everything it needs to (but still, at that, isn't completely reliable, as it needs SR up to be a sure thing, or else it might still lose). So, to help assure that CAP11 can beat Zapdos in most scenarios and thus be a good partner for Togekiss, I really feel that Paleo Wave should be Allowed.

 

[tennisace]

Do not suggest flavor moves or reasoning. Also, do not suggest signature moves of legendary/CAP Pokemon.

 

[Azule]

Elemental Punches: Allow
Considering that Voodoom is currently disallowed most forms of coverage on the special side, instantly ruling out the elemental punches could leave Voodoom to become a very "niche" pokemon. With the punches coming of its lower attack stat, they aren't as much of a threat as flamethrower/ice beam/thunderbolt would be, since physical voodoom wouldn't be used that much(in theory)
Sucker Punch: Allow
Gives this Pokemon a surefire way of countering Gengar without risking a speed tie, considering Gengar can heavily damage Voodoom with thunderbolt
Stone Edge: Allow

EDIT: X-Act gave better reasoning on this, so consider what he said what i'd say.

 

[noobiess]

Sucker Punch :allow
I owuld sertainly give him thing, because starmie doesn't really has a big shot at this one anyway. And it is a great move for him since he isn't that fast

Close Combat: disallow
I personaly wouldn't give him thing move, because he already is a great blissey-counter because of his abilty, but I actually would gave him a physical fightingmove between the base power of brick break and close combat.

Stone Edge:allow
I couldn't imagen him without, it would help alot for being a good synergy with togekiss.

Power Gem: allow
Even though I don't really see this move become a common move, it helps to give this pokémon a diversity of movesets.

Earthquake:dissallow
I don't really think it needs to kill electric pokemon with EQ, since jolteon has't got any defence and magnezone would get killed by a fightning move anyway.

Elemental Punches: allow/dissalow
I would like him having fire punch, just too get the popularity of scizor down a notch.
Ice punch, I'm not a big fan of. He wasn't made to kill dragon pokemon and togekiss should handle the grass pokemon.
I owuld add thunderpunch too, just because it looks like a logic move for voodoom to have

for the rest needle arm looks a logical move an could be handy too

 

[Fuhret]

Sucker Punch: With Voodoom's low Atk stat, they won't really be able to do anything except for killing Starmie, but since we have Dark Pulse Starmie can be troubled switching in. Starmie can threaten the core, but making this Pokemon able to take down everything isn't necessary, there should still be Pokemon that can threaten the core and therefore I think that it should be dissallowed.

Superpower/Close Combat: Voodoom isn't very physical, and both moves serve only two purposes; Blissey/Snorlax and Gimicky/mixed sets. Blissey/Snorlax are a very important things to counter, though, so I think that they should be allowed.

Earthquake/Stone Edge: Giving Voodoom Stone Edge means that Voodoom can counter Zapdos more effectively, and Earthquake won't be taking down anything that Fighting STAB can other than Jolteon/Electivire. Once again with it's paltry Atk stat it won't be doing much anyways. I that they should be allowed.

Power Gem: I really don't think that this will do much, there's nothing that this will do that HP Rock (or even HP Ice, for that matter) can't/wouldn't be used to do. I see no reason to dissallow it, though.

Elemental Punches: Really? What will they hit? Fighting/Dark STAB hits almost everything anyways, giving Voodoom the punches/fangs/whatever won't be doing anything (and again, low attack) other than taking up movepool space and should be dissalowed.

Mach Punch: I see no reason why it should be dissallowed. Giving him a second priority move is fine (he already has Vacuum Wave, so this would only be used on physical sets). It can help with Tyranitar, or maybe picking off Blissey/Snorlax or something.

Shadow Ball: Non-STAB Dark Pulse, rounding off coverage with Voodoom's two STABs. I see no reason to be dissallowed. I don't think that it would every really be used.

Most other moves that I think Voodoom should have would all be under "flavour" or non-competitive so I'm not going to mention them.

EDIT: I say allow Shadow Sneak and Pyschic, as mentioned later on in this thread, to deal with pokemon (such as Machamp and Starmie) without being overpowered, after having looked at the calcs.

 

[smallvizier]

In addition to Electric moves, I think that Grass moves should be disallowed. We agreed in the Counters thread that Voodoom should have trouble with bulky waters... and the first step towards this is keeping Grass and Electric moves out of its movepool.

If a powerful Grass move did get through, it would drastically change the pokemon Voodoom was capable of beating, and in a bad way. So I reckon they should be disallowed.

 

[ArbiterHunter]

i agree that Stone Edge should be allowed so Zapdos doesnt whip the floor with this Kiss/Doom team. i also agree that the Elemental punches should be disallowed b/c that just make Voodoom either too powerful or too unpredictable or even both. Also i think Sucker Punch should be disallowed as well b/c we dont want to make this pokemon too powerful and unpredictable and if voodoom is given this attack we might see a drop in Starmie users but i doubt that'll happen though

 

[GMLW]

Stone Edge is a necessity to beat Zapdos. Without it, Voodoom has very few other ways to beat Zapdos. Earthquake can also help beat Zapdos if you catch it while it Roosts, so it should be allowed as well. I also think that Superpower should be allowed in order to beat Blissey and Snorlax, while being more effective against other Pokemon than Brick Break.

 

[petrie911]

Why are Ice Moves disallowed? In the counters discussion, we specifically addressed the idea that Zapdos should not counter the duo. Ice moves present the perfect solution to that problem, nicely taking out Zapdos without posing any threat whatsoever to the bulky waters that we do want to counter Voodoom. Without Ice moves, our best bet against Zapdos is Rock moves. And that leaves us with Power Gem, Rock Slide, and Fail Edge. Personally, I really don't think our best weapon against such a threat should be an 80% accurate move with 4 PP.

Also, I see no reason to disallow the elemental punches, as they'd never see use. STAB CC/Superpower is more powerful than a SE elemental punch, which really limits how useful they could be. A 75 base power attack backed up by 85 base attack is hardly threatening to anything without a 4x weak, anyways, and they'd take up a valuable moveslot.

Also, I'd like to remind people that if you don't think a move will be useful on Voodoom, it should be allowed. The type-move and universal TM requirements already take up 19 of Voodoom's 35 VGMs, so there's really no need to put even more restrictions on our movepool creators.

 

[Rhys DeAnno]

Stone Edge is a bit more difficult, though Physically Defensive Zapdos receives less than 50% damage even from max attack CAP11 (which would probably be a gimmick). However, even though Specially Defensive Zapdos receives more than 50% damage from max attack CAP11, it only receives 38% - 45% damage from 0 EVs in Atk and neutral nature CAP11, and hence it does just manage to 2HKO Zapdos with Stealth Rock (or OHKO if you get a CH). You still have only 80% accuracy though. Against Togekiss, it fares even worse, at about 35% - 41%, which doesn't 2HKO even after Stealth Rock on average. We need to remember that CAP11 has only 85 Base Atk. All things considering, I tend to want to put Stone Edge in Allowed. I still see Stone Edge on CAP11 as a gimmick, personally.

In my opinion SE being a gimmick is a pretty big red flag. Combined with the earlier calcs I made concerning a base 70 power special SE move vs Zapdos (be it HP Rock/Ice or Power Gem)

HP Ice with Neutral 252 SpA LO:
Vs Offensive Zapdos: 58.6-69.2%
Vs Physically Defensive: 49.1-58%
Vs Specially Defensive: 35.5-41.8%

So if Stone Edge is the only real tool we give Voodoom to beat Zapdos, then either it can run Miss Edge and have a ton of Physical investment or risk Physically Defensive Zapdos laughing at it, or it can run HP Ice/Power Gem/HP Rock and risk being partially walled (Taunting will require prediction) by Specially Defensive Zapdos. The worst part is in both of these paths the move is basically dedicated to beating Zapdos, and even then, the use of a whole moveslot doesnt even allow Voodoom to beat all Zapdos. If we are truly concerned about Zapdos completely screwing up our perfect duo, I think we may need to move Ice Beam into the allowed movepool:

Ice Beam with Neutral 252 SpA LO:
Vs Offensive Zapdos: 78.5-92.8%
Vs Physically Defensive: 65.8-77.8%
Vs Specially Defensive: 47-55.9%

Ice Beam on Voodoom allows it to decisively defeat Zapdos with no risk of being walled or haxed, and is also a useful move for various other things, most notably Bulky Dragonite (who Togekiss cannot flinch and has no SE move against) and Gliscor (which outspeeds Togekiss' flinches naturally and cannot easily be paralyzed). Therefore it will find its way onto many sets and tend to discourage Zapdos from just setting up shop and ruining Voodoom and Togekiss's day.

I think for these reasons we must consider moving Ice Beam to allowed.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I hope nobody minds, but I'd just like to remind everybody that this is a competitive moves discussion. This means that this thread only deals with competitive moves, and thusly Needle Arm, Twineedle and Thundershock are not only irrelevant but also unaffected by this thread. Their time will come later. Now, back to business.

Since I'm pretty sure that 99% of CAP11's movesets will consist of SpecDark/SpecFight/PhysFight and then either STAB priority or Hidden Power for coverage, I can't think of how most of these moves on the controversial list have much relevance to how the Pokemon will perform. Most of these moves I cannot honestly believe will see any use, but I'll just go through the controversial moves at present.

Disallowed

Aura Sphere - Don't jump off the hook about this one, just hear what I have to say. In my own, silly little theorymon world, I've somehow come across the conclusion that Aura Sphere may be broken. I have already voiced concerns about the potency of Beigemon's STAB combo, and I truly believe that Aura Sphere is too much. It increases the damage dealt to bulky Waters, which may not seem like much over Dark Pulse but does seem to tip many of them into the 2HKO range with entry hazard support. Which is bad. Beigemon's cleaning capabilities are paramount - I think that by switching to reliance on a combination of Focus Blast and Close Combat, we will alleviate this pressure somewhat, allowing us to get Beigemon to rely more on Togekiss - which is something I'm worried may not happen with the progress made thus far. The important stuff - Tyranitar, Blissey, and those pesky Steels, are all covered by a combination of the above moves for the most part, and the area of neutrality is covered handily by Dark Pulse, so it would seem. The recurring fact is that Beigemon is looking to be one of the best solo sweepers in the game, and by taking away some of its reliability, we can allow it to become more of a team player - like Togekiss itself. It's late here so I guess I can't really explain myself coherently, but if anybody wants to challenge this I'll be more than happy to make a more thorough argument later. As for now, on to the boring stuff:

Allowed

Close Combat - If Blissey can wall CAP11 we have a problem, and Focus Blast/Focus Punch really don't cut it when we're talking about a competitive context. That's the only use for Close Combat on Beigemon really, unless you count Snorlax. So I really see no problem with adding Close Combat, but there is one slight problem with this I have to address:

According to the movepool guide, if Close Combat is a part of the final movepool then both Earthquake and Stone Edge are also required. (And if Stone Edge is on the movepool, Rock Slide has to be also). I don't know what the TL's stance on this is (or whether it is still relevant, as I am not sure how the recent movepool revisions affected new movepool submissions), but I think that this is a matter of some importance if Earthquake and Stone Edge are indeed controversial. If Type-Move reqs are no longer enforced then this can be disregarded, but as I think that neither is a particularly noteworthy move outside of certain gimmick sets (as X-Act has said), I would be fine with moving all three to allowed.

Irrelevant (so, yeah, I honestly don't care where they end up)

Sucker Punch - Sure, priority is nice, but off of 85 base Attack this isn't going to be doing that much, especially as 9 times out of 10 I would run a set of SpecDark/SpecFight/PhysFight with one coverage move. Sucker Punch simply has zero utility, and if I really wanted a coverage move, I would probably choose Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave over it. Starmie? Sure, that's true, but that's only one Pokemon. Not to mention that it can't switch in on Beigemon reliably anyway, and I'd be happy to let Starmie come in on the sacrifice if it meant I got rid of a troublesome Pokemon first.

Power Gem - Stone Edge outdamages it on most-everything it will be trying to hit, and on just about every other occasion Hidden Power Rock would be superior as a special Rock-type move (simply because you can theoretically bluff a different HP).

Elemental Punches - Essentially nothing is threatened by a 75 power nonSTAB attack off of 85 base Attack, and having used Electabuzz in UU I should know. I cannot think of a single situation in which one of these would be superior to a Hidden Power of the same type, or be more useful than any of SpecDark/SpecFight/PhysFight.