CAP 11 CAP 11 - Stat and Movepool Limits

[WaffleChan]

My preposal:

PS- 4
PT- 5 (maybe 6)
SS- 8
ST- 5
Ovr-6-7

My reasoning for the offensive bias is pretty much identiacal to Decks so I'll leave it alone.

In response to Fuzznip. I believe CAP 11 should be a balance of both physically and specially defensive with a slight bias to physical. Most the ice beams Togekiss faces come from unstabbed and relatively frail sources. With CAP 11's already amazing offensive STAB's and the likelyhood of it getting a very high speed stat (As illustrated by a fantastic SS rating) it will not need a large amount of special defense to survive an incoming Ice Beam and then attack back with it's wonderful attacking dynamic.
For the users of thundebolt, this CAP can take a, "the best defense is a good offense." Sort of approach. Most the users of thunderbolt are either fairly frail or specially frail mean CAP 11 can come in and threaten them with it's high special attack. A 5 rating gives CAP 11 plenty of room to develop adequate defenses for surving thunder bolts from most users. Specs Jolteon would still be a problem, but I see him being a problem regardless.

My argument for having slightly higher physical defense relies on two main points.
The first point being that it balances Togekiss' high Special Tankiness and low Phyiscal tankiness rather nicely, adding synergy.
The second point revovles around the many many physical threats in the metagame. A 5 or 6 rating (preferably on the low side of 6) gives CAP 11 enough to physical defense to survive and counter physical threats for Togekiss without actually walling and/or dominating them. Plus with the way the make-up of CAP 11 is looking, it seems as if EV's will have to be divided between all 6 stats, or be put heavily into offenses meaning that 90/90 (roughly) defenses should do this CAP fine. Finally, since Gengar has been mentioned a couple times, it's major weakness is revenge killers (and it's lack of defenses), mainly Scizor with Pursuit and Bullet Punch. Though Pursuit is not a problem for CAP 11, the thought of being killed by a quick Bullet Punch after being set up with a Nasty Plot sweep from Togekiss would suck majorly.

As far as the overall, I like 6 for stats but 7 for movepool.

 

[hydrolphin]

For the users of thundebolt, this CAP can take a, "the best defense is a good offense." Sort of approach. Most the users of thunderbolt are either frail or specially frail mean CAP 11 can come in and threaten them with it's high special attack. A 5 rating gives CAP 11 plenty of room to develop adequate defenses for surving thunder bolts from most users.

Since when has Zapdos been frail? Without a great Special Defense Zapdos will destroy the combo to no end. It would take a seriously powerful Ice Beam to kill any Zapdos, let alone a Specially defensive one. Since Togekiss is dead weight against Zapdos, Rotom, and Jolteon, CAP11 has to be able to beat them. Rotom, to an extent, is taken care of by CAP11's dark typing. But Zapdos and Jolteon will screw over the combo unless CAP 11 can take a few hits from them.

Specs Jolteon would still be a problem, but I see him being a problem regardless, plus it's important to make CAP 11 good enough to support Togekiss perfectly but so good that it excells without her.

I don't get what you are trying to say here. In order to make sure CAP11 is mostly used with Togekiss, we should make it weak to one of Togekiss' counters? If anything, we should be trying to make CAP11 weak to pokemon that are weak to Togekiss.

 

[Scoopapa]

The way I see it, Special Defense is more important for taking super effective attacks, since we resist Rock, which is almost always physical, but we don't resist Ice or Electric, which are almost always Special (or 40 BP Ice Shard). However, against neutral attacks, Togekiss is more likely to have to switch if it's a physical attack. In this case, CAP11 makes a better switch if it's got more physical defense. Of course, we don't have to rely on CAP11 to take everything that will ever get thrown at Togekiss, but the more things it can take the closer it is to being a "perfect mate". So one way to look at the dilemma is to boil it down to whether Togekiss is more often threated by Ice / Electric attacks or by powerful neutral Physical attacks (since Rock we know we can take).

Then again, CAP11's defenses are for more than just switching into attacks aimed at Togekiss. They will determine whether or not many threats are able to revenge kill it. For instance, Scizor's Bullet Punch threatens Togekiss, while we could potentially give enough defense to CAP11 to survive a couple of BP's (Scizor may be a bad example since it has Superpower). At any rate, this line of thinking would tend to favor physical defense for wider, contrasting coverage.

I don't really think CAP11 can afford bad defenses on either side, and as of yet I'm not really sure which of the two stats is more important than the other - there are plenty of arguments in both directions. It may be that a more or less even spread is the best idea.

 

[WaffleChan]

Since when has Zapdos been frail? Without a great Special Defense Zapdos will destroy the combo to no end. It would take a seriously powerful Ice Beam to kill any Zapdos, let alone a Specially defensive one. Since Togekiss is dead weight against Zapdos, Rotom, and Jolteon, CAP11 has to be able to beat them. Rotom, to an extent, is taken care of by CAP11's dark typing. But Zapdos and Jolteon will screw over the combo unless CAP 11 can take a few hits from them.




I don't get what you are trying to say here. In order to make sure CAP11 is mostly used with Togekiss, we should make it weak to one of Togekiss' counters? If anything, we should be trying to make CAP11 weak to pokemon that are weak to Togekiss.

Well obviously Zapdos isn't frail in any way or form. I was focusing more on other t-bolt users like Starmie since Zapdos and Rotom have been covered to no end by others before me who are arguing either the same thing or something very similiar.

And that second one was a typo, I edited it to include the word not. And they should be two different sentences since they're two different thoughts. I meant to say that with it's typing, I think Specs Jolteon is going to be a problem for this CaP regardless unless it gets 130+ speed.

 

[Fuzznip]

I've made my decision. Thank you everyone for the posts. Here are the limits:

Stat Limits:

Physical Tankiness (PT): Rank 5 (Good)

Physical Sweepiness (PS): Rank 6 (Very Good)

Special Tankiness (ST): Rank 5 (Good)

Special Sweepiness (SS): Rank 7 (Excellent)

Base Stat Rating (BSR): 350 (Very Good)
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Movepool Limits:

Total Movepool Size: 75 (Very Good)

Very Good Movepool Size: 35

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I will reopen the Stat Submission threads for all of you to work on your stat spreads.