CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[jas61292]

So we have our stats. Now its time to look at abilities once more and decide what our second one should be. Once again, our Ability Leader is PttP, and he will be leading the discussion and choosing the slate. Pay close attention to his posts and feedback, and be sure to direct your arguments towards him and his questions.

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Air Lock
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Color Change
Dark Aura
Defeatist
Fairy Aura
Forecast
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Parental Bond
Protean
Pure Power
Shadow Tag
Slow Start
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Arena Trap
Drizzle
Drought
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Prankster
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost

Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Grass Pelt
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Run Away
Symbiosis
Telepathy​

Be careful not to discuss any of these abilities. If you want to learn why they're banned from discussion, you can check out the Policy Review threads that created this list here and here.

This thread will be open for discussion once PttP has posted his opening remarks and questions.

--------------------

CAP18 so far:

Leadership Team:

DetroitLolcat - Topic Leader
jas61292 - Typing Leader
PttP - Ability Leader
srk1214 - Stats Leader
ginganinja - Movepool Leader

Concept: Major Third

General Description: A Pokemon that forms an effective offensive or defensive core with two lesser-used OU Pokemon.

Justification: Cores have always been an integral part of the metagame, whether you're running Talonflame/Staraptor to brute force everything, Slowbro/Amoonguss/Heatran for Regenerator-Leftovers stalling, or a whole team of Dragons + Magnezone. We've previously explored what it takes to make a successful partnership in CAP11 (Voodoom), but the metagame (and the simulator!) has changed dramatically since Voodoom's creation. I would also like to up the ante a little bit: Instead of just one, can we now take TWO Pokemon and find their missing piece? Whether we opt to build on an established two-Pokemon partnership or choose two previously unrelated Pokemon and put them together, I think that we can certainly find a Voodoom for a more offensive time.

Questions to Be Answered:

• How do effective cores in the current metagame differ fundamentally from the cores of previous metagames, if at all?
• Is synergy as important (relative to power) in the current metagame as it previously has been? (That is, has power creep rendered synergy unnecessary?)
• What differences are there between tailoring a Pokemon to two others and tailoring it to one? What else must be considered besides weaknesses and resistances?
• How does the addition of a Pokemon to a core change what other Pokemon can be effectively run alongside the core?
• Does Team Preview make running cores more difficult?
• Is it possible to create a core uncounterable by a single Pokemon? (For example, Celebi/Heatran/Jellicent was a very effective BW core that got slaughtered by Tyranitar. Can a core force opponents to counter it with another core?)
• Tagging onto the above, what is required to "counter-core" a core? What combination of offensive and defensive characteristics among "counter-core" members achieves this?

Pokemon CAP18 should threaten:

It's important that, first and foremost, we threaten the Pokemon and strategies that our core has no answer to. In general, the degree to which a Pokemon threatens Latias and Lucario should be the degree to which CAP18 threatens that Pokemon.

Ghost-type Pokemon: Aegislash, Gengar
Fairy-type Pokemon: Clefable, Mawile predominantly. Togekiss, Sylveon and Azumarill to somewhat lesser extents.
Some Fire-type Pokemon: Mega Charizard Y, Heatran, Talonflame to a much lesser extent.
Bug-type Pokemon: Scizor, Forretress, Volcarona.
Ground-type Pokemon*: Landorus-Therian, Hippowdon, Excadrill.

When I say "to a lesser extent", I mean that CAP 18 should be a threatening presence to this Pokemon, but it should not be an ultra-reliable counter. CAP18 should perform well against every Pokemon on this list, but that doesn't mean CAP18 needs to unconditionally switch into and force out these Pokemon. It should likely be able to do one or the other, but countering all of these Pokemon is neither feasible nor recommended.

CAP18 should be able to handle, either by switching in or 1v1, the Pokemon that defeat at least one of our core members that the other one cannot switch into. For example, Mega Charizard X is a Pokemon that defeats Lucario 1v1 that Latias can't switch into. If Multiscale is active, so is Dragonite. Gyarados, before it Mega Evolves, fits this bill.

*With a weakness to Ground, this will be a difficult task. We should threaten these Pokemon as well as we can, but we should not expect to counter Ground-types, but rather defeat them 1v1.

Pokemon CAP18 should be threatened by:

We should be okay with CAP 18 losing to Pokemon that the rest of our core handles well. For example, Latias is a tremendous answer to Rotom-W, and CAP18 is weak to Electric and does not have a STAB that can hit Rotom-W even neutrally. Rotom-W isn't particularly bothered by Fire- and Water-type support options, so making Rotom-W anything other than a threat to CAP18 is fitting a square peg into a round hole. Keldeo is a similar example, although Keldeo is so commonly paired with Pursuit Aegislash (the bane of this core) that it's not safe to let Keldeo counter this CAP.

Bulky Waters: Rotom-W, Keldeo to a much smaller extent.
Bulky Dragons: Latias, Latios, Goodra.
Walls with minimal offensive presence: Chansey, Blissey.

Pokemon not on either of our threatlists should be overly specifically threatening or threatened by CAP 18. Just because a Pokemon is not in the second list doesn't mean it is our prerogative to beat it. The same goes with Pokemon not in the first list: we shouldn't be expected to lose to every Pokemon that we don't threaten.

Typing: Fire / Water
Abilities: Analytic / ??? / ???
Stats: 100 HP / 45 Atk / 80 Def / 135 SpA / 100 SpD / 95 Spe

 

[PttP]

As we come upon discussion for a secondary ability, I would like to start out by saying that the ability we choose should have absolutely no potential to overshadow or even share the spotlight with the primary ability. The main intention of this stage is to choose an ability that will best complement Analytic. On our last CAP, Cawmodore, we ran into the problem of having a secondary ability that served a completely different purpose than Intimidate, allowing it to set up on Eletric-types (primary special attackers) instead of physical attackers. To go along with it, there was no real surprise value in Volt Absorb since Intimidate has an activation message, and as a result of these two things, Volt Absorb drew way too much usage. This isn't to say that we should approach this CAP like we did with Malaconda and essentially give it no wiggle room, but a certain amount of restraint must be used.

Basically, what I'm looking for in this discussion are abilities that allow our CAP to handle one or two threats that our primary ability does not let us handle, but also make it so that beating those one or two threats does not outweigh the loss of potential power that Analytic provides on a consistent basis. Also, do not forget what our concept is! Don't go around suggesting abilities that make no sense in terms of the overall CAP / Lucario / Latias core. I'm gonna take a page out of Korski's book from CAP 5:

It goes without saying that this will be a much different thread than Primary Ability. All abilities are now guilty-until-proven-innocent; that is, you'll need to convince the community that the ability does not overpower or interfere with Analytic before you extoll the virtues of the ability itself. I would also recommend sticking to concept-oriented arguments, whether you are arguing for an ability or NSA/Ineffective Ability. I'm not so cold-hearted as to claim with authority that there isn't anything out there that can help us explore this type-balancing idea while steering clear of our primary direction. I just want to make clear what the most persuasive arguments are going to look like.

Finally, this should be fairly obvious but if not, Bulletproof is banned from discussion.

 

[The Avalanches]

I think we should consider something like Intimidate or Flame Body to mess with physical attackers like Mawile, Azumarill and Conkeldurr. Neutering their attack would make them so much more manageable.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

If we're looking for an interesting ability that helps us towards our concept, how about Infiltrator? If stopping Aegislash is the name of the game, then we need a better way to stop the SubToxic set that CAP18 doesn't like to face (although CAP18 does win). CAP18 also wants to get past Azumarill and Mega Mawile without any problems, but it essentially loses to both of those Pokemon if they use Substitute as CAP18 switches in. Mega Mawile can smack CAP18 with a Focus Punch or a Knock Off, and Azumarill will set up with Belly Drum or just smack the CAP with a Waterfall. With Infiltrator, CAP18 can burn Azumarill (assuming it gets Will-o-Wisp) and roast Mega Mawile before they attack CAP18, effectively neutralizing both. Gliscor, another Pokemon that uses Substitute often, is a bulky Ground that Toxic stalls Latias and CAP18 (without Infiltrator) and Earthquakes Lucario.

CAP18 fares poorly against the Pokemon it needs to threaten if they use Substitute, and Substitute is already a somewhat common move on at least three Pokemon CAP18 needs to defeat. Infiltrator does not let us get around our counters (until Safeguard Latias becomes a thing, at least), and it certainly doesn't overshadow Analytic. In fact, I would argue that Infiltrator is a much more pro-concept Ability than Analytic, because it specifically targets Aegislash, Gliscor, Mawile, and Azumarill, four of the most common Substitute users in the game.

 

[finnaggann]

I would say levitate but levitate would be to powerful so: no guard, this would not really open up anything new but would mean things like fire blast and hydro pump would not miss giving more reliable attacks and allowing for some surprise factor. this ability would not be a real game changer and would mot allow for punishment of switches that this pokemon would cause. while damage is the most important thing not missing is still nice so I feel this is a good ability that is equal or lesser than analytic. furthermore this ability has the drawbacks of thunder always hitting this pokemon.

 

[mewtwo15026]

Infiltrator also screws up some common Gengar sets, which is nice. I remember seeing some Sub/3 Attack Heatran running around, too, although Heatran isn't exactly an issue for CAP18 regardless of ability. The reason it doesn't overshadow Analytic is that it doesn't punish Aegislash for existing like Analytic does and is actually fairly useless against things without Substitute.

finnaggann I don't think Levitate would be too powerful. In fact, since it doesn't actually help CAP18 against Aegislash and still leaves the core dead to Excadrill, I'd reason that it's a little underpowered. The anti-Earthquake angle is nice, though, because it forces Earthquake users to use Stone Edge, and we all know how that tends to turn out (seriously, that 80% seems a bit generous at times).

 

[Salt]

Infiltrator: SubToxic Aegislash is still a thing, and if we switch into Aegislash as it subs, we're going to get Toxic'd, or have to tank a Shadow ball just to break the Substitute. Infiltrator would solve the issue because we're faster than Aegislash and easily take it out with Fire Blast after the damage from Substitute. The fear of taking a Fire Blast through Infiltrator might also prompt Aegislash to switch, and the switch-in might take an Analytic-boosted attack. Infiltrator also helps against Substitute Mega Mawile, which is fairly common. Infiltrator is a good deal more situational than Analytic for this CAP, so it likely wouldn't see as much use.

Cursed Body: A weird one, considering it's an ability that only activates 30% of the time and no non-Ghost gets it, but 30% is a lot in the world of competitive Pokemon, so disabling things like Aegislash's Shadow Ball and random Earthquakes could give us free turns to spread burns, heal, etc. Still, it would be a pretty unreliable way of dealing with the things we're supposed to threaten. Flame Body could be lumped here I guess for similar reasons, but I don't like it as much because it doesn't deal with Aegislash or Earthquake users.

Motor Drive/Lightning Rod: These abilities would help against Electric-attackers, particularly Thunderbolt Gengar, turn a weakness into an immunity, and give a useful boost to us. Lightning Rod makes us stronger than with Analytic, and isn't dependent on the opponent switching out. +1 95 Speed with 135 Special Attack is pretty scary.

 

[vyomov]

I'd like to suggest Rattled as an alternative ability for CAP 18 - while definitely giving Analytic the spotlight, Rattled allows CAP 18 to take advantage of resisted U-Turns and also lets us boost our speed on Aegislash's attacks, which definitely helps CAP 18 as we can then outspeed Landorus-I with the boost and thus take care of a threat that otherwise can beat the core.
However, Rattled is highly situation-based and thus does not risk becoming superior to Analytic, since most players would prefer the reliable boost from Analytic than the unlikely boost from Rattled.

 

[FireArrow]

No guard would be interesting, it gives players a choice between power and accuracy. However, to keep it in line, we'd need to be careful not to overstock our move pool later (if cap 18 had inferno, you'd have no reason to run analytic.)

I'd like to suggest Gooey. This would allow us to come in on the alternate attacks ground types would aim at latias (such as excadrill's iron head), lowering their speed to ensure we KO first. I'm not too worried about this becoming dominant to analytic, as while analytic is universally useful, Gooey is only useful on a select few Pokemon (physical attackers that use contact moves above 95 speed that we don't already check/counter.) If power is too much of a concern, Static (while less flavorful) is a valid alternative.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

No guard would be interesting, it gives players a choice between power and accuracy. However, to keep it in line, we'd need to be careful not to overstock our move pool later (if cap 18 had inferno, you'd have no reason to run analytic.)

I'd like to suggest Gooey. This would allow us to come in on the alternate attacks ground types would aim at latias (such as excadrill's iron head), lowering their speed to ensure we KO first. I'm not too worried about this becoming dominant to analytic, as while analytic is universally useful, Gooey is only useful on a select few Pokemon (physical attackers that use contact moves above 95 speed that we don't already check/counter.) If power is too much of a concern, Static (while less flavorful) is a valid alternative.

Excadrill can just use Earthquake on Latias thanks to Mold Breaker negating Levitate.

 

[Ecthel]

Huge Power

While Infiltrator probably wouldn't be common enough to make the sub users too scared, it can definitely function as a nasty surprise. It deals with threats the primary ability doesn't, while being less useful in the general case. This makes it a great candidate for secondary, I think.

I kind of like Blaze. While I normally wouldn't consider it a competitive ability, since this CAP is both SR weak and taking some powerful attacks its health is going to be dropping rather rapidly. This is definitely a much more niche ability compared to Analytic, since the boost is not always in effect and even when it is you're on the verge of death. However, much like the jump in power of going from, for instance, an Expert Belt to a Life Orb, the extra power would make it at least somewhat worthwhile. Analytic would be the better of the two, but that's not a bad thing in this case.

 

[Bughouse]

I like DetroitLolcat's suggestion of Infiltrator, which has nice but more niche benefits as compared to Analytic. Along the same lines of screwing over SubToxic Aegislash, we could just go the more direct route with Immunity. It's less versatile, since it won't help us as much against SubPunch Mawile and Gliscor, but it at least guarantees to protect us if we happen to switch in not to Sub but to an immediate Toxic from Aegislash.

I could also see White Smoke/Clear Body, which protect CAP 18 from the 20% chance of Shadow Ball dropping SpDef. Cloud Nine would protect us from taking Sand damage as well as enable us to outrun Sand Rush Excadrill and Swift Swim Kabutops etc.

That's about it for "niche" abilities I find reasonable.

 

[canno]

I've said this a couple of times on IRC, but I think Infiltrator is a neat ability, especially for a secondary one. The main reason is to smack SubToxic Aegislash, as it could be a problem to use due to its low speed and kings shield. With Infiltrator, we can't be toxic stalled.

 

[Yilx]

I'd like to draw everyone's attention to Infiltrator and Clear Body.

Infiltrator has a very specific niche, which being able to bypass substitutes. With this, we will be able to play plenty of mind games with Sub users; it works extremely well with analytic. Aegis will be further locked into a situation that it can't exactly switch out and risk a team member getting hit by an analytic-boosted attack. However if it stays in it potentially gets hit through it's sub and roasted. This can be applied to other mons that commonly run substitute too (Kyurem-B, Gengar, Gliscor); they are all roasted by our 135 SpA fire-attacks. As such, I think Infiltrator would be a very nice Ability to complement Analytic.

Clear Body does not work very well with Analytic and might be even worse off, but it has the very nice niche of saving us from potential Special Defense drops from the likes of Shadow Balls. A weaker, but also aceptable choice if Infiltrator or Gooey don't make it through.

 

[Karoshi]

For a secondary ability, I propose Thick Fat. While it provides little compared to Analytic, it does give CAP18 A SEXY 1/8 RESISTANCE TO TWO COMMON ATTACK TYPES. The big thing with Thick Fat is that wouldn't help counter Pokemon it already wouldn't, but would give it a fairly unique niche. This would allow CAP18 to tank even the most powerful fire/ice moves in the OU environment without trouble let alone coverage moves. In addition it helps out the core by covering two of the weaknesses even more so then before, giving more reason to run this with the Core.

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat CAP18 in Sun: 91-107 (22.5 - 26.4%) -- 18.9% chance to 4HKO
+6 252+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat CAP18 in Sun: 110-130 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat CAP18 in Sun: 54-64 (13.3 - 15.8%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat CAP18 in Sun: 43-51 (10.6 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat CAP18: 23-27 (5.6 - 6.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
220+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat CAP18: 36-43 (8.9 - 10.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

[Albacore]

Okay, here are my thoughts on the abilities suggested so far:

Infiltrator is my favorite option so far. DetroitLolcat pretty much perfectly summed up why it would be good for our CAP, so I don't feel the need to add anything.
I don't think Intimidate is a great idea, since it's not enough to let us switch into Ground-types, although it can have its uses against Fairies, so it's not bad either.
Flame Body, much like Intimidate, sounds decent against Fairies, but I don't really want to give our CAP a luck-based ability. Same goes for Cursed Body and Static.
No Guard just sounds like a generic good ability to me. I don't really understand what it's supposed to do.
Rattled only helps against Gengar, and I don't really like it since giving our CAP speed boosts seems detrimental to the core to me.
Gooey doesn't help at all, since everything on it that wants to attack the CAP with contact moves (aka Fairies) is really slow anyway.
Blaze doesn't seem very useful to me, since our CAP isn't quite fast enough to abuse it and has no STAB Priority it can use (lol Aqua Jet). But I guess it can work as a flavor ability.
Immunity can be considered against SubToxic Aegislash, but it doesn't help against any other set or Pokemon. Once again, seems pretty filler, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
White Smoke/Clear Body is even more situational. I'm not really sure what to think of it.
Cloud Nine just seems kind of odd. I guess beating Sand Rush Excadrill is nice, but Scarfed Excadrill just seems like a bigger concern to me (not that we can do much about it, obviously).
Thick Fat is just silly.

 

[Torty73]

No guard will rival analytic - it will allow it to throw out powerful fire 100% blasts and 100% accurate will o wisps.

Water absorb is my personal favourite. It will allow it to switch in to water type attacks and heal, and give it a niche on sun teams. It won't be a massively competive ability but it will give it a option to deal with water types.

however Infiltrator is a great ability and is situational, but will help deal with sub toxic Aegislash.

 

[99_Problems]

While I definitely like the idea of Infiltrator, I would like to suggest Poison Heal. This not only gives the CAP a different approach at beating SubToxic Aegi, but can potentially give it a bit more longevity if it opts to hold a Toxic Orb.

 

[FireArrow]

Excadrill can just use Earthquake on Latias thanks to Mold Breaker negating Levitate.

Jesus, you'd think I'd learn after switching Latias in on every Excadrill. Gooey still has merit of nailing ground types, it's just not as perfect of a fit into the core as I'd like it to be.

Okay, here are my thoughts on the abilities suggested so far:
No Guard just sounds like a generic good ability to me. I don't really understand what it's supposed to do.
Rattled only helps against Gengar, and I don't really like it since giving our CAP speed boosts seems detrimental to the core to me.
Gooey doesn't help at all, since everything on it that wants to attack the CAP with contact moves (aka Fairies) is really slow anyway.

No guard allows us to reliably use fire blast/hydro pump at the cost of power, which while not pertaining to any specific threats, does give players the option of not getting miss hax on aegislash. While rattled would only give an immediate speed boost on gengar, switching into an aegislash shadow ball, forcing it out, then using the speed boost to limit switch ins gives us a neat alternative to analytic. The point of Gooey is not to deal with fairy types.

It looks like infiltrator has already taken the majority, which I'm fine with. I just feel we would be better off countering sub-toxic aegislash in the movepool stage.

Edit:

Poison Heal is an amazing ability and would be used over analytic on any defensive set, which will probably become the majority given how good it is.

 

[Pipotchi]

I assume anyone can post their suggestions? I'd like to suggest Rain Dish as a secondary ability; it doesn't compete with Analytic because this pokemon mainly aims to deal with aegislash and rain will weaken your fire type attacks against it- however rain dish does give some utility on a rain team whilst also providing some additional recovery which would help reduce toxic damage from sub+toxic aegislash sets, allowing you to break it down without being worn down too quickly with your rain boosted water STAB. I wouldnt believe that rain dish would grant this pokemon more synergy with Politoed than with Lucario+Latias, and ultimately you have to pick 3 other pokemon to support the core so I dont believe it works against the aim to pair the pokemon with Lucario+Latias. Rain dish is a situational ability doesnt overshadow or compete with Analytic, but it does have a small niche.

 

[Ununhexium]

Currently digging infiltrator. Alongside aegislash, it can defeat other sub roost users.

I would also like regenerator. It was discussed in the primary discussion and it offers completely different support. It has more of a defensive presence as opposed to offensive.

 

[Wayan Vistar]

I agree with Infiltator. My reasoning is basicly what Detroitlolcat already said (well, at least I was beaten to the punch by the tl) Anyway, may I also suggest Torrent? Unlike with Blaze, we could end up with priority. Also, it has neat flavor to it. But I still like Infiltrator better.

 

[EternalSnowman]

Infiltrator seems like a great ability for the reasons stated above.

I want to suggest Filter. Although it may kinda be out of flavor (or maybe not), due to its big physical weaknesses to Ground and Rock, an ability that can partially negate that or at least lessen the strain on CAP18, could be really helpful. Some of the other abilities that are suggested such as Poison Heal could be a little OP, and also requires CAP18 to run a lot of defensive investment since 100/80 is not a defense to be living continual Earthquakes. Although less relevant, it also helps us deal with Thunderbolt Gengar, I say less relevant because of its better Special Defense 100/100. This would make a defensive ability for its Secondary Ability while going Analytic would be the offensive route.

 

[Burt Racecar]

I would like to throw support behind infiltrator - I can't improve upon the reasoning, it really is as simple as getting around substitute sets.
I also like rattled, white smoke/clear body and rain dish. None of these are particularly overpowered and would probably suit a more niche set for CAP

Since people are suggesting immunity and poison heal, neither of which I'm particularly fond of, I'd like to suggest an alternative to those in the form of Shed Skin.
It would allow CAP18 to not fear status as much, but not being too overpowered to grant full immunity to toxic. Yes, it does have a 33% chance to shrug off ANY status at the end of the turn, reliable enough, yet not guaranteed. It's just enough to give it an advantage over SubToxic Aegislash, (and paraflinch Togekiss who we want to threaten).
Now I know I'm supposed to be persuading people that this is a good enough secondary ability without being overpowered, however I have to admit it has potential to push Analytic out of the top spot for ability usage - we've seen the likes of Scrafty performing Bulk Up + Rest Shed Skin sets to successfully wall many pokemon. I think we would all agree that this isn't the direction we want CAP18 to go. So I would like to suggest we exercise caution regarding this ability and perhaps I'm jumping ahead here, but any defense boosting moves such as calm mind and bulk up has no place on CAP18 if it has the ability Shed Skin.
So with the right moves, (or lack of) Shed Skin could be a viable secondary ability in my opinion.

 

[Bramblestein]

I'd like to suggest Weak Armor as a secondary ability, it gives CAP the option of being a little more bulky without actually sacrificing too much power since it can then switch to a pseudo frail/boosting sweeper. It doesn't give as much as power as Analytic, and also lowers Defense so it probably won't see as much usage.