CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 5 - Tertiary Flavor Ability Discussion

[Rising_Dusk]

Now that we've decided our first two negligibly competitive flavor abilities in Forewarn and Telepathy, we need to discuss the tertiary ability, should CAP 2 get one at all. Past slated choices that are possible candidates for the next poll are Anticipation, Liquid Ooze, Sticky Hold, and Own Tempo. As before, they are not shoe-ins for the next slate, so if you still want to see them, you need to sell me on them again. Now that we have two abilities, we know more about the flavor of the CAP, so keep that in mind. CAP 2 is shaping up to be a fairly telepathic Pokemon! Again, let me remind you that No Tertiary Ability will be showing up on this slate without fail. Now that we have two abilities, we don't have to worry about the Dream World situation since one of them will definitely be Dream World. We'll decide that after the fact, so no worries there.

This thread will be open for roughly 24 hours. I may close it early because we've discussed this pretty much to death and everyone's gotten their say in multiple times, but there it is. We have to have this stage regardless.

I went through every ability in the game for the last discussion thread and, using my current feelings, created a list of the negligibly competitive abilities that we could give to CAP 2 in this poll.

Hide

Anticipation
Big Pecks
Damp
Forewarn
Friend Guard
Gluttony
Healer
Heavy Metal
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Infiltrator
Keen Eye
Light Metal
Liquid Ooze
Magma Armor
Minus
Moody
Oblivious
Own Tempo
Pickup
Plus
Pressure
Run Away
Soundproof
Sticky Hold
Swarm
Tangled Feet
Telepathy
Torrent

CAP 2 thus far:

Concept: Sketch Artist

Description: A Pokemon that learns Sketch, once, and everything that goes along with that.

Justification:

In terms of uniqueness, I think that few existing Pokemon can match DPP Smeargle, an otherwise laughably worthless Pokemon trolling OU with access to every trick in the book (or at least 4 of them) but also affecting the metagame greatly by becoming a top threat in the lead metagame. This Pokemon will borrow some of that uniqueness by learning the move Sketch and thus having access to ONE surprise/strategic/gutshot bonus move to supplement its pre-existing movepool. Being otherwise competently built (read: usable stats), this Poke could be a top threat or specialist for reasons we can't even predict yet.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How will a Poke that has access to any one move out of all the moves in the game affect common battling tactics, namely prediction, scouting, and switching?
• Which Sketch moves will become most common on this Poke's best sets? Does Sketchmon's success rely on hiding that secret Sketch move until just the right moment or can it succeed with predictably powerful moves like Spore, Spikes, Hurricane, Shell Smash, etc.?
• Does this unique and powerful access to moves need to be counterbalanced elsewhere in the Pokemon's design? If so, then to what degree?
• What kind of impact can Sketchmon have on teambuilding in terms of being able to patch holes with common utility moves like Rapid Spin or Toxic Spikes?

Explanation: The key here is that we have a lot of freedom to construct a unique Pokemon while staying within the confines of the concept. Typing, stats, abilities, and even most of the movepool are completely fair game so long as the Poke learns Sketch only once along the way and that we keep that in mind during previous steps. Now, this doesn't mean the CAP process will be directionless; Rising Dusk is pretty well organized and good at keeping discussions focused, and the concept itself has firm grounding in Smeargle's precedent. What's really being studied with this concept is movepool diversity and effectiveness, so it should have the most effect on the movepool process, where movepool creators will have to carefully balance their Sketchmon's actual movepool with the possibility of adding any one other move to the list. In terms of the metagame, there is no doubt in my mind that throwing a wildcard like this into the mix will strongly affect the metagame.

Focus: Bulky Offense
Typing: Grass / Ghost
Stats: 64 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 85 SpA / 120 SpD / 81 Spe
Abilities: Forewarn, Telepathy
Primary Checks: Heatran, Jirachi, Skarmory, Hydreigon

tl;dr: Quack! (Does anyone else actually know what tertiary means?!)

 

[LouisCyphre]

So, uh, abilities. Yeah.

I'd like to pitch Oblivious. I don't think CAP 2 has time for such pursuits as romance when there are spirits to be contacted.

inb4 counter-argument for big pecks

 

[Straw Hat]

I still think that Own Tempo is the best ability choice (and by the way, tertiary means third level. Ex. tertiary consumer).

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Haha yeah, I know what it (tertiary) means, I was asking it sarcastically in the tl;dr. :P

 

[RitterCat]

Respondig to R_D's Quack

ter·ti·ar·y *(tûrsh-r)
adj.
1. Third in place, order, degree, or rank.
2. Of, relating to, or designating the short flight feathers nearest the body on the rear edge of a bird's wing.
3. Chemistry
a. Of or relating to salts of acids containing three replaceable hydrogen atoms.
b. Of or relating to organic compounds in which a group, such as an alcohol or amine, is bound to three nonelementary radicals.
4. Tertiary Of or belonging to the geologic time, system of rocks, or sedimentary deposits of the first period of the Cenozoic Era, characterized by the appearance of modern flora and of apes and other large mammals. See Table at geologic time.

I'm guessing 2, 3 or 4

Anyway, I am going to be supporting Anticipation. It fits with Forewarn, with both involving mind reading, and Anticipation can be seen as a kind of "upgrade" in mind reading ability to Forewarn, which works nicely with it being he Dream World Ability. It also brings no qualms about the competitivity of the ability as Anticipation is nearly useless and it's uses, though few and far between, are negligible in a competitive sense. Also, this argument doesn't really carry weight as it is not a precedent, but having two initial abilities would SUGGEST a Dream World ability. Most Pokemon without Dream World abilities, such as Ferrothorn and most Levitators are defined by their abilities. However this does not restrict us to having a Dream World ability, but I for one would feel much better if we stick with tradition and give CaP 2 a Dream World ability. However, I would not be unhappy of we decided to go with No Tertiary Ability.

inb4 capefeather w/ Own Tempo

 

[steelguttey]

Well before I even LOOKED at the section to write this comment, I took one big, hard look at the Pokemon's Sprite itself, because I know that abilities like these usually fit what a Pokemon looks like, and the thing I noticed is that it has four eyes, now this widens up a huge amount of possibilities for it, they could use it for intimidation (no, I'm not suggesting intimidate) or having an eye always on the opponent, thats why I chose either Pressure or Keen Eye as they both resemble her quite well.

As for my next point, I have to ask Yilx something about the Pokemon, are the eyes on her dress glowing? As that could give for something like Illuminate and I could really see that working.

The eyes on her head actually look like they are staring through my very soul, so something like Infiltrator or Anticipation could also be suited for that.

Just for you lazy people, I have gathered a list of abilities that would be well suited for CAP 2 and not suited for CAP 2

Hide

Green = Yes
Orange = Not Sure
Red = No

Anticipation
Big Pecks
Damp
Forewarn
Friend Guard
Gluttony
Healer
Heavy Metal
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Infiltrator
Keen Eye
Light Metal
Liquid Ooze
Magma Armor
Minus
Moody
Oblivious
Own Tempo
Pickup
Plus
Pressure
Run Away
Soundproof
Sticky Hold
Swarm
Tangled Feet
Telepathy
Torrent

 

[Smith]

Can we please just stop, having 2 useless abilities is quite enough. Just because it fits the flavor of the CAP doesn't mean that we at all need it, it needs to ENHANCE the flavor of the CAP and I don't think throwing ghost-y abilities at it is the way to do it. I think just one main ability and one DW ability is plenty, I'm hard pressed to think of any pokemon that has 3 nigh useless abilities and we really don't need to make one. Just because the flavor ability that you wanted didn't make it to the end doesn't mean you have to tack it on the end of this CAP. No Tertiary Ability, please.

 

[Master of the Six Kings]

No Tertiary Ability

It is very possible to ruin something with too much flavor. Let it marinade in what it's got going.

 

[canno]

Yes, having flavor abilities is nice. No, we don't need to cram her with them. Our 2 current abilities do the job fine, we don't need a third ability. It most likely wont enhance flavor and it doesn't affect the pokemon's performance. I don't think that it's a good idea to give her a 3rd ability for the sake of giving her a 3rd ability. No Tertiary Ability.

 

[FireArrow]

I think it should have Anticipation or Pressure. Pressure would fit its play style and would make sense as the Pokemon is scary-looking. Anticipation would go along with Forewarn.

 

[Jaetheho]

How about pressure? Also, i was thinking something like Intimidate and make egg moves illegal with the dream world ability? (which i am assuming tertiary is)

 

[jas61292]

Flavor is good, but just because spices can give something flavor does not mean you can just throw in more to make something taste better. I think we already have done enough in the flavor department, and maybe even too much. Adding stuff for the sake of adding stuff is not the way to go. No Tertiary Ability, is really what we need at this point.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I agree with all of the sentiment that we don't need a third ability. I can humor a secondary ability for the Dream World, but beyond that, I think we're really doing more harm to the flavor of the CAP than helping it, as many before me have said. As a voter and participant of CAP 2, I firmly believe that No Tertiary Ability is the way to go.

As the TL, however, I must provide a slate that does not forcibly limit the community. For that reason, Own Tempo is still a very strong contender. For this slate, I'd like to avoid bashing the 'telepathic' flavor into the ground, and Own Tempo does well there. The rest of the slate will be determined by the remainder of the discussion here!

Also, i was thinking something like Intimidate and make egg moves illegal with the dream world ability? (which i am assuming tertiary is)

I am calling this tertiary ability and not Dream World because once all abilities are decided, I'll be holding a poll to determine which ability is the Dream World ability. Since every ability is flavor, I don't want to outright decide by personal decision which it will be. I am also not okay with giving CAP 2 a competitive Dream World ability and just saying "It's illegal with Sketch!" That's distracting from the CAP, distracting from our previous decision to choose negligibly competitive flavor abilities, and generally ugly for the Pokemon's design. For that reason, I'm just going to delete further proposals for competitive abilities. I'm leaving your post so my response here makes sense.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

no tertiary ability

Two abilities is perfect for this CAP. One normal ability and one hidden DW ability. What's the point of two normal and one hidden ability when all three are flavor anyway? I think it's a good idea to have a Hidden Ability simply because most Pokemon have one and it's good form, but a second normal ability? It's not abnormal for a Pokemon to only have one regular ability and this pokemon only needs one.

Telepathy is a cool DW ability, and Forewarn is a cool regular ability. What else do we need?

 

[Jaetheho]

all right then :) then two is good enought for me. no tertiary ability.

 

[Asylum_Rhapsody]

I still don't get this whole "Own Tempo" thing. Why is this a suggestion? Yes, I understand that it is competitively pretty much useless, and that's great, but the title of this thread isn't "Tertiary Useless Ability Discussion"; it's "Tertiary Flavor Ability Discussion", so if it isn't justified through flavor, then it shouldn't make the cut. So, what part of the design is Own Tempo reflecting exactly? Somebody please explain this to me, because I am in the dark. I feel like this is Liquid Ooze all over again.

I was very happy that the second ability ended up being something that actually fit the flavor well and didn't conflict with the primary ability, but again, the danger of another ability is that we could end up with something that doesn't fit well at all, and yes, that can ruin the flavor of the existing abilities, especially if it's something more competitively valuable than the other two abilities.

So I guess that's my stance then. Unless somebody can suggest something conceptually fitting that is less competitively valuable than both existing abilities, I will be voting for No Tertiary Ability.

 

[BloodGod22]

Liquid Ooze.

Why? Because its mostly a useless flavor ability since Capmon is immune to the two most common health draining moves: Drain Punch and Leech Seed. So outside the rare Giga Drain (thats resisted anyway) i dont think it holds any other use.

Im against Own Tempo because immunity to confusion has alot of competitive value.
Sticky Hold is on the same boat as Own Tempo.

 

[Asylum_Rhapsody]

Liquid Ooze.
Why? Because its mostly a useless flavor ability since Capmon is immune to the two most common health draining moves: Drain Punch and Leech Seed. So outside the rare Giga Drain (thats resisted anyway) i dont think it holds any other use.

See, this is what I'm talking about. How is Liquid Ooze a flavor ability? The justification above is about it being competitively useless, but being competitively useless doesn't make it a flavor ability. To be a flavor ability, it has to fit the flavor. There's nothing about this CAP that is oozy or slimy at all, so why is Liquid Ooze being suggested as a flavor ability? The only justifications for it that I've heard from a flavor perspective is that flytraps secrete digestive juices or that ghosts are made of ectoplasm, and both of those are extremely weak. If we really need to stretch that far to justify a flavor ability, then I think that we need to keep looking. Or stop looking.

 

[jumpluff]

Can we please just stop, having 2 useless abilities is quite enough. Just because it fits the flavor of the CAP doesn't mean that we at all need it, it needs to ENHANCE the flavor of the CAP and I don't think throwing ghost-y abilities at it is the way to do it. I think just one main ability and one DW ability is plenty, I'm hard pressed to think of any pokemon that has 3 nigh useless abilities and we really don't need to make one. Just because the flavor ability that you wanted didn't make it to the end doesn't mean you have to tack it on the end of this CAP. No Tertiary Ability, please.

Agree. If anything I'd rather make Telepathy a Dream World ability if No Tertiary Ability is picked. All of the remaining options are clutching at straws. Also, I think the abilities there are more Psychic than Ghost, particularly Telepathy... ._.

You know, many Pokémon have diverse information known about them, in their dex entries and as shown in the anime and on the trading cards, but not all of them have three abilities. We don't need to keep adding things about flavour to the stats of this mon to compensate.

 

[Yilx]

I think No Tertiary Ability is the way to go here. Too many flavour abilities would spoil her and the only ones that would make sense right now are Keen Eye and Unnerve, anyway.

Illuminate... COULD work, but it's a far shot, just like Liquid Ooze and Sticky Hold.

 

[Deck Knight]

In the name of pushing the envelope I propose Soundproof so CAP 2 can use Perish Song with impunity and also be immune to Roar. For ultimate power, break CAP 2.

 

[RitterCat]

Oh, so this ability is not necessarily a Dream World ability and that could easily apply to one of the other two? In that case, I change my support to No Tertiary Ability as a third would be simply unnecessary, seeing as it thy are all flavour abilities. However, I still wouldn't mind Anticipation :)

 

[Spork]

Deck_Knight do u want a ubermon? u are pig

I'm going to post seriously again for Own Tempo. I think this and this and this etc etc etc all seem to show the kind of slow, serene, measured movement characterised by Own Tempo, and I think it's the main ability here that actually emphasises the priestess portion of the design, as opposed to Telepathy and Forewarn, which emphasise more interpretable aspects (eerie + psychic). I'm a bit sick of Forewarn and Telepathy tbh, and would rather use the last ability to expand on the flavour rather than just leave those two alone and have our maiden's main trait be that of clairvoyance.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Hey guys I've got an idea

Let's make this thing as similar to Lilligant as we possibly can

Vote Own Tempo YAY

...In all seriousness I think we can count ourselves lucky that we've managed to push through two flavour polls while giving Sketchette two entirely flavour-based abilities. For goodness's sake don't let Liquid Ooze or something similarly ridiculous jump on as well. As far as I can tell Sketchelle isn't dripping in pus or adhesive goo of some description. I wouldn't mind Own Tempo that much but it's a real waste of time. Plus I don't like the idea of making this thing some sort of Lilligant clone... even more than it already is.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot. Vote No Tertiary Ability (I have been wanting to say that for so long...)

 

[Bartman101]

No Tertiary Ability; Jebus guys, one ability would have been just perfect, w*****s making her have Telepathy when we'd just use Forewarn anyway, plus, we hardly ever used 1 ability, woulda been nice to see a change. I've voted NTA because having one would be pure overkill.