CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment 2

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jas61292

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In the recent poll, the community decided that we would be pursuing an Defensive/Offensive Boosting combination for this project. This thread will be used to further discuss this approach, and assess how we want to move forward with it.

Once again, the concept is as follows:
Name: Use the Boost to Get Through!

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

Justification: In the early days of Pokemon X and Y, we experienced the first Pokemon that could (viably) boost and sweep from either the physical or special side: Mega Lucario. While it was clear his unpredictability could have a devastating effect (having your Chansey eat a Close Combat, Will-O-Wisping on the Nasty Plot, etc.) the true extent to which this could make a Pokemon better was masked by the fact that Lucario's sets were both already amazing. The purpose of this concept would therefore be to explore the impact of unpredictability in sweepers by creating a Pokemon that can run several boosting sets, none of which are dominant in their own right, but that when combined can result in an extremely dangerous threat.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • Is there a limit to how much unpredictability can make a Pokemon better? Can it make a decent Pokemon great? Or can it only make them usable?
  • How does being unpredictable with boosting options compare to other forms of unpredictability (such as uncommon coverage moves or trying to speed creep certain threats)? Is unpredictability in sweepers inherently more dangerous because of how easily they can win a game?
  • For a Pokemon that is already unpredictable, will we see the use of strange coverage moves (as many sweepers tend to run) or will it tend to stick to standard sets because it already has the element of surprise?
  • Which boosting moves are distinct enough to completely change a Pokemon's checks/counters? Are Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Agility the only ones that can fit this concept? Or is there a way to incorporate moves such as Dragon Dance without giving the Pokemon "the best of both worlds".
  • How effective will double boosting sets be on this Pokemon? Will the ability to "pick your counters" on a Pokemon already designed to bypass its counters be too good? Or can it be designed so that the loss of coverage will still leave it with several checks and counters on any set?
  • To what extent will teams have to prepare for this Pokemon? Will they have to pack several checks/counters like for M-Lucario? Or will they be able to just use a standard team so long as they can identify the set early?
Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if you're poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.​

Our topic leader, nyttyn , will start off this thread with his opening thoughts. Make absolutely certain that you use his post as a starting point for your discussion to follow. Continue to pay attention to his posts as he begins to guide the community through the chosen topic! It's very important that we are discussing with each other under the TL's guidance, and not talk *over* each other! Posts will be deleted accordingly!
 

nyttyn

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Welcome to Concept Assessment part 2. In the last stage, we settled on focusing on Defensive / Offensive boosting - and now, it's time for us to discuss the merits of the various move combos attached to that, and decide upon one. How this will work is that, from the time of this post, you will have 48 hours (extendable as need be) to argue for the merits of the following move combos. From there, we will have a further 24 hour period to refocus discussion upon those moves, and then move onto the typing stage.

The boosting combos up for discussion are:

Bulk Up + Dragon Dance
Bulk Up + Swords Dance
Bulk Up + Nasty Plot
Calm Mind + Swords Dance
Calm Mind + Dragon Dance


Calm Mind + Nasty Plot is not on the table to discuss, as the two are redundant in combination. In addition, Cotton Guard is also not on the table, as while Cotton Guard has been successfully used in the past (on Altaria), it has only been successfully used in combination with other boosting options, and is incapable of standing on its own.

Note: Coil is considered identical to Bulk Up for the purposes of this conversation, as it has a fairly minor and highly situational impact.
 

Deck Knight

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Of the ones listed, Bulk Up + Dragon Dance and Bulk Up + Nasty Plot are the most sound basis for two sets that stand on their own.

Starting with BU + DD: What both of them really do, in different ways, is hedge against revenge killing. Bulk Up's Defense boost weakens incoming priority attacks, while Dragon Dance allows CAP to require foes to shift their item to Choice Scard or be outsped and KO'd.

Now, BU + NP is a much harder road to walk, but its distinct advantage compared to BU + SD is that the booster by its very nature requires an entirely different set to be effective, whereas BU and SD can theoretically be interchangeable on a set. Any sets that are so similar are bound to attract similar counters based on type matchup or coverage choices. This is not the case with BU + NP, as opponents expecting a physical set quickly find their Special Defense overwhelmed, while opponents prepared for NP get slowly rolled by the Bulk Up set.

As far as Dragon Dance + Calm Mind. These sets, too, would both be highly distinct, but as neither boosts physical defense, that would have to be factored in when considering the threat faced by priority and Scarved opponents. Ultimately I think BU + DD and BU + NP are more sound.
 
I feel like the most appealing of these options is probably Bulk Up + Nasty Plot and Calm Mind + Swords Dance.

Going off of the original concept, we want to make the Pokemon able to use various set up moves to create new and different counters for each set. Bulk Up + Nasty Plot makes for either a ferocious Special Attacker right away, or a lure Bulk Up set which can smack special walls that come in. It's a very interesting concept, and I think this really highlights just how different the counters can be changed to adjust to a Pokemon. Bulk Up also provides a unique Defense boost, which could potentially be used with Nasty Plot to ease set up; however, that limits coverage and wouldn't be the optimal set. I really feel like the first option provides the most creativity and would be much easier to build around then others. For example, Bulk Up + Dragon Dance would be tough to pull off because Speed and bulk are usually not intertwined. I feel like creating polar opposites is the best route to go with this. Calm Mind + Swords Dance, on the other hand, seems like it would be more or less the same as Bulk Up + Nasty Plot, just inversed. I won't go in-depth to that, because I've covered my opinions on Bulk Up + Nasty Plot already, so reiterating it would be a waste of time. Overall, I think these two are the most interesting options.

Deck Knight: I don't really follow your logic with using Bulk Up to make sure you're not revenge killed by priority. Priority is maxed at 80 power, but is usually just 40, and setting up Defense will really just shrug it off. Brave Bird is the only other priority move that is above 80 base power, and the Defense boost still won't stop you from not taking a chunk of damage from it. Do you mean Dragon Dance and Bulk Up on the same set? I feel that's unwise because it limits coverage and would be too much going on, unlike Double Dance. Bulk Up would be more useful in general for the Attack boosts, I believe, and it wouldn't really matter for the revenge killing portion. Besides, if it's using Bulk Up then it's bound to be a bit slower than average, at least in my eyes, and revenge killing would then be impossible. Rather, it would help protect against powerful attacks. There lies the issue, however, a Bulk Up Pokemon would want to try and deal with stall, not revenge killing. Offensive pressure before setting up is what would be hard for the Pokemon, and what would be limiting the Bulk Up set. Powerful attacks are a much larger priority when the Pokemon is trying to set up, not really priority.
 
I like Calm Mind + Dragon Dance and Bulk Up + Nasty Plot. I especially like Calm Mind + Dragon Dance, as the two moves serve completely different purposes. Calm mind would be used like clefable or mega sableye, while dragon dance would be for a cleaner or late game sweeper, such as salamence in gen 5. bulk up beating priority doesn't seem to be that relevant, as any pokemon that effectively uses calm mind would have a decent defense to start with, such as my mega sableye example. If we choose bulk up and nasty plot, neither makes for a good sweeper without very high speed.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
I think Calm Mind + Dragon Dance is probably our best choice because it divides counters / checks pretty well. Unfortunately, such a 'mon would want a lot of good stats; SpD and SpA for Calm Minding, Atk and Spe for Dragon Dancing, and Def for tanking Priority or strong physical hits, depending on the set (obviously HP is a subset of SpD and Def).

Outside of that, NP + Bulk Up could work okay as well; I imagine the 'mon would be slow and bulky, and something really interesting is if we could fit on Vacuum Wave but not physical priority, in any case it'd be able to take a few hits and retaliate strongly, though it'd struggle with strongass special attackers.

To be honest, I recall there was a camp that was interested in same-offense boosting, i.e. BU + DD, basically, and i'd be interested to see what they have to say; Zygarde's proven you can pull both off and somewhat surprise counters.

CM + DD is still my favorite selection however, since it lets you go bulky or go fast while not having too much Speed; an NP set can only 'go fast' if it's really fast already.
 

Albacore

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I think Bulk Up + Dragon Dance and Calm Mind + Dragon Dance are the only good options here. If we are to make our Pokemon bulky enough and with a good enough defensive typing to make use of Bulk Up / Calm Mind, I do not see it being fast or powerful enough for an SD set to work without giving the CAP ridiculous stats in all areas. Furthermore, an SD set and, say, a Calm Mind set will both be checked by faster attackers rather easily, and both of these will be able to muscle past defensive Pokemon, either by raw power or the ability to evade status and shrug off their attacks (and yes, I think some way to dodge status and possibly phasing is needed if we want a bulky boosting set to be good. The best bulky boosters in the tier, Clefable, Sableye, and Talonflame, all have a way to do this, be it Magic Guard, Magic Bounce, or Taunt). Pure offensive boosting and bulky boosting just have checks and counters which overlap too much. Meanwhile, Speed boosting would give our Pokemon the ability to check faster attackers which a bulky set would tend to lose to, while being unable to break past walls which a bulky set could muscle past.
 
I like Calm Mind + Dragon Dance because it would provide Physical and Special options and can possibly be run side by side to create a mixed sweep option which will probably get past all but dedicated walls or counters.
 
I was a fan of the DD+NP combination, so it's only natural that my favourite of the slate here is the closest thing, Dragon Dance + Calm Mind. I really like the diversity that comes with the physical/special and fast/slow approach to boosting. Dragon Dancers usually work with just one or at most two boosts, since they don't need (or have the chance) to boost further, since they usually run no to little bulk; on the other hand, Calm Minders tend to take on the bulky route, stockpiling boosts and using their natural Defense and augmented Special Defense to take hits while they set up, but they need to get several boosts to be offensively threatening (thing Suicune or Clefable).

I like Calm Mind + Dragon Dance because it would provide Physical and Special options and can possibly be run side by side to create a mixed sweep option which will probably get past all but dedicated walls or counters.
I strongly disagree with this. DD+CM+mixed attacking sounds pretty bad, even if we give CAP20 a wonderful two-moves coverage backed by STAB. I believe the purpose of this combination is to make CAP20 work in two completely different ways depending on the chosen way of boosting. DD/CM CAP20 will be a DDer like, say, Gyarados or a CMer ala Clefable, and be good at both, just not at the same time. Running both would result in a Pokemon who tries to fullfill two different roles at once, failing at both.

Bulk Up + Dragon Dance is another option I don't mind, as it keeps the slow vs fast diversity while keeping it physical. Again, running both would mean losing on valuable coverage or support. This combination hasn't been explored in any existing Pokemon, except maybe Zygarde who has both Coil (similar to BU) and DD.

I don't really like Bulk Up + Swords Dance as it reminds me too much of Toxicroak. Actually, it's not that common and it might be a decent route to follow, it just doesn't sound very appealing to me.
 
I think some people are missing the point here. Going Double Dance is exactly against the concept. It makes the CAP just Gen 6 Terrakion, and doing physical + special mixed will be next to impossible. That's what most of you argued against Power + Speed boosting, even.

As for me, I support Bulk Up + Dragon Dance the most. I still really, really don't want to go mixed, and this is the the most diverse option we can get without crossing the borders. Bulk Up ensures you slowly but surely sweep and shrug off priority moves, but in return risk getting your ass handed to you by other fast threats, such as actual scarfers (who pack moves much stronger than regular priority), fast taunters, etc. Meanwhile, DD messes up the scarfers and taunters BU hates, but in return is left wide open for priority.
 

Cretacerus

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Bulk Up + Nasty Plot
As has been mentioned, the main advantage of this is the huge contrast between the sets, letting you choose physical vs. special and defensive boosting vs. offensive boosting options. This makes the combination exceptionally good at finding different set-up opportunities and being unpredictable offensively, meaning that just about any defensive team will have a hard time against it.
However, what this combination severally lacks is the ability to deal with offensive teams due to its inability of boosting speed. Sure, Bulk Up could run some powerful priority and act as sweeper, but this approach doesn't really utilize the full capacity of defensive boosting moves (such as stallbreaking), instead playing like a very situational and generally inferior SD set.
If we want this combination to succeed, we have to give CAP amazing speed and resistances to priority, in order to somewhat deal with offense, but even then it is outclassed in this role by the other boosting combinations.
All in all, I think that, while it could work out, there are far better alternatives on the slate.

EDIT: Sword Dance + Calm Mind seems to be better at this overall, since former can deal with offense and walls simultaneously, while leaving the defensive boosting set with the niche it really excels at: stall breaking. Though this puts a lot of potential into the SD set, which might cause the combination to be fairly unbalanced and CM to remain largely unused, making it still not an optimal choice.

Bulk Up + Dragon Dance
This is an interesting combination whose full potential I didn't even realize until recently. At first, the physical focus of these boosting moves seems to suggest similar sets and counters which would be rather unfavorable for the concept. However, they do provide an interesting duality of speed and physical defense unique on this slate, and as Ignus said in the last assessment thread, those are the prime approaches to prevent revenge killing. Back then, I still questioned him about the inability of this combination to break walls as efficiently as say SD and NP could, but as discussion progressed it was very clear that this is easily be taken care of by movesets and ability.
Bulk Up is very capable of running a stall breaking set with taunt/substitute and recovery, meaning it will overcome any opposition unable to deal enough instant damage, including many physical walls that would otherwise be troublesome for this combination. On the other hand, Dragon Dance would utilize speed and coverage to defeat threats that can muster enough offenses to beat the Bulk Up set, giving us two very different movesets and subsequently sets of counters. It should be noted that this combination is very reliant on movepool and ability to function properly, so it is important for the topic leader to provide a consistent guidance line throughout the concept. We absolutely can't afford ending up with the different stages (movesets, abilities, stats) all targeting their own objective as has been the case with some of the previous CAPs. This combination will only work out if we synchronize our interpretations beforehand and all the stages build up on each other.

Calm Mind + Dragon Dance
This is very similar to the BU/DD approach above, but trading the advantageous defense boost for more diversity in the offensive department. As I have mentioned, hitting from different sides of the spectrum isn't all too important if you can just use the wall in question as set up opportunity, so the defensive boosts to shield us from priority the Dragon Dance set despises seems to offer more synergy overall. Also, since Calm Mind and Dragon Dance only boost their individual offense stats by 1 stage they would both have to be reasonably high to begin with, something the BU/DD combination avoids. Not that it is a great issue, since high base stats aren't necessarily bad, but it is another point that makes me favor the BU/DD combination for doing the same thing more efficiently.
 
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I think for the best results picking between Bulk Up + Nasty Plot or Calm Mind + Swords Dance would work the best. By giving it the option to either use a physical set or a special set, but not too much of a way to run Mixed easily, you give it a way to have each set checked/countered by a different group of pokemon. Additionally by doing so you create a lot of unpredictability when it comes out, since your opponent isnt going to know which set you use until you use a boosting move, by then a wrong prediction will be devastating.

After reading some of the other comments, I did remove Calm Mind + Dragon Dance from the previous paragraph, since that would probably result in people trying to run both on one set and missing the point. Bulk Up + Dragon Dance doesn't seem like a bad option though, since as mentioned in previous posts it would offer differing ways to deal with revenge killers, which also would create a differing set of checks and counters. I do feel that the fact that both moves would put it on the physical side, you may create a lot less uncertainty than CM+SD/BU+NP would, since it would be a lot more possible for it to have both sets checked/countered by a single pokemon. (I.e. Switching in something with Intimidate is going to affect both sets equally.)
 
Before I discuss which pair of boosting options I support, I feel it's first prudent to discuss Gen 5 Infernape to give a little context to my concerns. Back in gen 4, Infernape was an incredibly versatile Pokemon. It has access to Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, along with other high momentum options. In gen 5, however, it stopped attempting Nasty Plot, or even Swords Dance for that matter. People quickly realized that the mixed set was a better set than the Nasty or Swords Dance, because Infernape could break through Physical and Special walls alike with the mixed set. Thus people stopped playing boosting sets.

The moral of this story is that if we want this CAP to succeed CAP shouldn't have a mixed set that's better than any of it's boosting set. Thus we need to see where we can cut down the power of it's mixed set. A mixed set needs to have good speed, good Special Attack, good Physical Attack, and a good movepool in order to be viable. The movepool is going to be tough, since that's going to impede our progress in making the boosting sets viable. If we cut Physical Attack, it hurts our Physical boosting, and if we cut Special attack, it hurts our Special boosting. If we cut both, then we have Mega-Sableye and the Defnesive option will be strictly best. Therefore, it seems most desirable to put CAP in a slightly awkward Speed tier.

That being said, knowing that CAP is going to be slightly slow if he has to attack on both the Special and Physical end, Bulk Up/Dragon Dance, Bulk Up/Swords Dance, and Calm Mind/Dragon Dance seem to be the most desirable outcomes. The first two avoid the problem by simply not attacking with the Special stat, and the latter actually has options to get itself to a desirable speed with the Dragon Dance set, diversifying its counters. Of the three, too many pokemon check or simply hard counter Physical boosting sets this format for us to choose Bulk-Up/Dragon Dance. Swords Dance/Bulk Up actually avoids this problem, since boosting two stages at once can actually accelerate the speed at which you can get past a check. My issue with Swords Dance/Bulk Up is ultimately my problem with Nasty Plot/Calm Mind. It's insanely easy to tell what pokemon would rather go defensive and which should go offensive. Mega-Sableye would rather have Calm Mind than Nasty Plot, Gallade would rather have Swords Dance than Bulk Up, etc. so it seems like if we make even one mistake in the stat spread, we'll ruin the whole CAP.

Thus, I'm going to swing my favor behind Calm Mind/Dragon Dance.
 
Before I discuss which pair of boosting options I support, I feel it's first prudent to discuss Gen 5 Infernape to give a little context to my concerns. Back in gen 4, Infernape was an incredibly versatile Pokemon. It has access to Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, along with other high momentum options. In gen 5, however, it stopped attempting Nasty Plot, or even Swords Dance for that matter. People quickly realized that the mixed set was a better set than the Nasty or Swords Dance, because Infernape could break through Physical and Special walls alike with the mixed set. Thus people stopped playing boosting sets.

The moral of this story is that if we want this CAP to succeed CAP shouldn't have a mixed set that's better than any of it's boosting set.
This is by far the most important point I've read so far. Just had to quote for emphasis.

Until now I haven't been so concerned which option gets picked, but this was kind of important enough to speak up and say yeah, that's something that must be taken into account when making this decision. And largely it's the reason why Bulk up+Dragon Dance should be the route to take. That way there is less risk of creating something that's much better off going mixed than using the dedicated boosting sets.

I don't mean to hijack NumberCruncher's post, since he poses a good argument for CM+DD as another way of mitigating the chance of a pure mixed set becoming dominant. But BU+DD does the same except with absolute certainty, and these two physical sets are still going to play very differently.
 

Bughouse

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I believe both boosts should fall on the same side of the physical/special split. CAP has a habit of trying to take too much on, and boosting both physically and specially almost ensures that we will need too good stats, if both sets are going to be viable.

And if you're going to boost on only one side, physical is the side to do for many, many reasons. I support Bulk Up + Dragon Dance.

(This is better than SD bc the speed boost vs the defense boost is the way to differentiate the checks/counters most obviously. If you can't outspeed the mon anymore, you are a lot less likely to check/counter it.)
 

Cretacerus

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NumberCruncher's concern about sets forgoing their boosting move is certainly reasonable, but I can't see why that would only be the case with mixed sets. As long as we give CAP the tools to be effective without the boost, we have to expect it to free up the moveslot and set-up turn on at least some of its sets. This has been the case with Infernape, but also with many non-mixed attackers such as Talonflame, Tyranitar and Scizor, who choose not to run a boosting move on their most common sets even though those are definitely viable. These examples show that restricting mixed attacking doesn't really solve this issue, and that "simply not attacking with the Special stat" does in no way discourage all-out-attacking sets. This can only be achieved by having CAP be mediocre in all aspects, not just mixed attacking prior to the boost, and therefore create greater reliance on them.

Regarding srk1214 post above, it seems to me that the only stat that would differ significantly between BU+DD and CM+DD is special attack. Good stats aren't necessarily a negative thing, as distribution and synergy with movepool play a much larger role, and as long as we prevent CAP from becoming an all-out-attacker, I see it playing no differently than the BU+DD set would. The additional special attack won't do it any good if it can't go mixed.
Though I have to agree with the sentiment that BU+DD does have more than enough tools to do the same thing CM+DD can, so there isn't much reason to go the more complicated and arguably aesthetically less pleasing route with high base stats.
 
I think Calm Mind + Dragon Dance is a better route because Calm Mind flips the table on most physically bulky Pokemon, whereas Bulk Up risks being stalled out from burns, Rough Skin / Rocky Helmet / Spiky Shield, etc., while still needing several boosts to break through the CAP's defensive checks to Dragon Dance sets. People worry about Calm Mind + Dragon Dance being a bad idea because it requires decent offenses both physically and specially, but is that a bad thing? You could easily balance the BST by dropping a defensive stat, most notably Special Defense since dropping Defense or HP would make the CAP susceptible to priority, and low Special Defense can be fixed with Calm Mind. Something like 125 / 110 offenses is not the end of the world, and who cares if the Pokemon cannot go mixed? The purpose of the CAP is to be able to choose between beating offense through boosting or beating more defensive teams through boosting, not be capable of being a good mixed attacker.
 
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With the right set up move you don't need particularly high stats. Just as an example, Serperior manages to be a threat (just barely missing OU by 0.3% points) with just 75 SpA. Granted, for it the "right set up move" is a 130 BP STAB attack but the point stands.

If we don't want the CAP to run overpowering mixed sets then it's simply a matter of adjusting the stats so you have to have to use the set up.

Now, on to the actual set ups.

Any set with Swords Dance is, I think, a no-go. The reason is priority. There's just so much more and better Physical Priority. Even though Lucario's SpA is better and with access to Nasty Pot, Special Lucario is a rarity. Any sweeper's going to need priority unless we make it ungodly fast and bulky. An immediate +2 Physical Priority is just so much better. As such, I recommend Bulk Up or Dragon Dance for the Physical Boosting. So that leaves two choices.

Dragon Dance + Calm Mind or Bulk Up + Nasty Plot.

Now, in order to think about how these two sets would work, first we need to think of how the moves are used.

Dragon Dance and Nasty Plot are both set up moves that are used once primarily. The general idea is that you send in the sweeper on something it can threaten without a boost, and use the switch in order to get the turn needed to set up. For DD is has decent ATK and SPD stats that become overpowering even with a single boost. Nasty Plot is similar. You have SpA that is rocketed up to a threat with a +2 boost, usually with decent enough default speed.

Bulk Up and Calm Mind, however, are designed to be used consecutively. You send in the booster on something that it can easily wall, and then use the time to start setting up multiple boosts so you can shrug off whatever your opponent sends in to check your sweeper. You then use a combination of recovering and heightened defensive stats to sweep.

So, no matter what, this CAP is going to have some good defenses and speed.

Now that I think about it; both options will be checked and do checking in mostly the same way. The physical boosting side will be able to handle priority and scarfed revenge killers. Either by being able to outspeed them with a Dragon Dance, or simply being able to tank their hits with Bulk Up. They'll both be countered by physically bulky special attackers. And the special boosting side will simply be able to muscle through the physically bulky counters, while lacking any speed boost to handle physical priority and scarfers.

Though, I will say that DD+CM will be the easier choice, since we'll have greater control over its speed. Both will work fine though.
 

DougJustDoug

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I collected some stats on Pokemon in the real game that have access to multiple boosting moves. I collected these stats to get an idea of what already exists in the game, and how those existing pokemon might or might not utilize multiple boosts available to them. I have always been a stat junkie, and as I was looking over the stats, I thought others might find this interesting as well.

I first collected all the fully evolved pokemon that have access to the combinations of boosts we are considering for this CAP. Here are those lists of pokemon.

Bulk Up + Dragon Dance
Rayquaza
Scrafty


Bulk Up + Swords Dance
Barbaracle
Beartic
Breloom
Blaziken

Chesnaught
Diggersby
Gallade
Groudon
Hawlucha
Heracross

Infernape
Landorus
Lucario
Mew
Mienshao
Pangoro
Pinsir
Rayquaza
Toxicroak
Talonflame
Ursaring



Bulk Up + Nasty Plot
Infernape
Lucario
Mew
Thundurus
Toxicroak


Calm Mind + Swords Dance
Absol
Arceus
Celebi
Cobalion

Darkrai
Gallade
Infernape
Keldeo
Landorus *
Leavanny
Lucario
Mienshao
Mew
Serperior
Terrakion
Virizion
Weavile
Zoroark


Calm Mind + Dragon Dance
Latios


The bolded pokemon in those lists are the pokemon that actually USE both boosts in metagame battles, as shown below. Here are the boosting move stats for each pokemon in the lists above:

Code:
+----------------------------------------+
| Absol                                  |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 51.171%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Barbaracle                             |
+----------------------------------------+
| Shell Smash 80.742%                    |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Beartic                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 16.467%                   |
| Power-Up Punch  4.790%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Breloom                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 17.779%                   |
| Power-Up Punch  3.087%                 |
| Bulk Up  3.014%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Blaziken                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 30.653%                   |
| Bulk Up  5.836%                        |
| Power-Up Punch  3.706%                 |
| Hone Claws  2.169%                     |
| Agility  1.380%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Celebi                                 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Nasty Plot 24.897%                     |
| Calm Mind  5.598%                      |
| Swords Dance  5.152%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Chesnaught                             |
+----------------------------------------+
| Bulk Up  4.819%                        |
| Belly Drum  4.261%                     |
| Power-Up Punch  2.382%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Cobalion                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 19.100%                   |
| Calm Mind  8.411%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Darkrai                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Nasty Plot 49.105%                     |
| Calm Mind  4.059%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Diggersby                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 37.762%                   |
| Agility  4.217%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Gallade                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 50.116%                   |
| Bulk Up  7.384%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Groudon                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Rock Polish 23.248%                    |
| Swords Dance 12.243%                   |
| Bulk Up  3.933%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Hawlucha                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 58.502%                   |
| Hone Claws  7.678%                     |
| Bulk Up  3.589%                        |
| Power-Up Punch  1.995%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Heracross                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 17.755%                   |
| Bulk Up  3.523%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Infernape                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance  5.178%                   |
| Nasty Plot  4.479%                     |
| Power-Up Punch  2.650%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Keldeo                                 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Calm Mind 29.113%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Landorus-Therian                       |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance  2.682%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Landorus                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Rock Polish 23.788%                    |
| Calm Mind 13.432%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Latios                                 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Calm Mind  6.049%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Leavanny                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 15.421%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Lucario                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 46.863%                   |
| Nasty Plot 18.805%                     |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Mienshao                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| -- None --                             |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Mew                                    |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance  5.742%                   |
| Calm Mind  5.435%                      |
| Nasty Plot  4.249%                     |
| Iron Defense  1.957%                   |
| Bulk Up  1.710%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Pangoro                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Bulk Up  9.969%                        |
| Swords Dance  9.315%                   |
| Power-Up Punch  2.964%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Pinsir                                 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 72.492%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Rayquaza                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Dragon Dance 28.144%                   |
| Swords Dance 11.405%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Scrafty                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Dragon Dance 54.356%                   |
| Bulk Up 28.772%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Serperior                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| -- None --                             |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Talonflame                             |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 30.787%                   |
| Bulk Up  8.970%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Terrakion                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 13.054%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Thundurus                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Nasty Plot 22.821%                     |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Thundurus-Therian                      |
+----------------------------------------+
| Nasty Plot 28.108%                     |
| Agility  5.732%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Toxicroak                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 52.140%                   |
| Bulk Up  5.938%                        |
| Nasty Plot  2.239%                     |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Virizion                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 47.485%                   |
| Calm Mind 23.139%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Ursaring                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 31.672%                   |
| Bulk Up  3.128%                        |
| Belly Drum  3.030%                     |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Weavile                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 19.612%                   |
| Power-Up Punch  2.075%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Zoroark                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Nasty Plot 21.220%                     |
| Swords Dance  7.803%                   |
+----------------------------------------+
I listed every boosting move that pokemon uses, even if the boost moves are not being considered here. I collected the stats from the February Showdown stats for the tier most commonly associated with the pokemon in question.

A few interesting points I noticed:

Not surprisingly, Swords Dance is a really good move.
In most cases where pokemon had access to SD and another boosting move, SD was typically used much more often. A few exceptions to Swords Dance dominance were:
  • Celebi - With Nasty Plot much preferred, and even Calm Mind is used slightly more than SD
  • Chesnaught - Doesn't use SD at all, preferring to use Bulk Up, Belly Drum, and even PUP. Although all of Chesnaught's boosting moves are very low in terms of percentage usage anyway. But still an interesting anomaly, I think.
  • Groudon - Much prefers Rock Polish over SD, although a double dance set is a thing. With an attack stat fully double its speed stat, it's understandable that speed boosting is the primary concern. But it goes to show what kind of stat distribution is perhaps needed to make a physical pokemon forego the benefits of SD, in favor of something else.
  • Pangoro - The only pokemon that preferred Bulk Up over Swords Dance. Although the usage difference is less than one percentage point. Still if we decide to go with BU+SD, the panda could be worth looking at more closely to understand how the pokemon's build makes the two moves a toss-up.

We have lots of pokemon already in the game with access to BU+SD and CM+SD.
With both being TM's, this isn't too surprising. I was a bit surprised how many pokemon do, in fact, use both moves with detectable regularity. We should think long and hard about whether we really believe we can do something with CAP 20 on these two combos that is distinct from everything else that already has them. I'm not saying we CAN'T do something interesting with these moves. But sometimes CAP ignores evidence from the game/metagame and tries to overcome obvious, insurmountable hurdles. Let's keep our eyes wide open, if we go with BU/CM + SD.

The Dragon Dance combos we are considering are very rare in the game.
Not too much data to work with on these. With BU + DD, we have only Scrafty for reference. CM + DD only has one pokemon (Latios) with access to the combo and it doesn't use DD at all in Gen 6.​


I'm curious to hear some more subjective interpretations about these stats, if you are into this kind of thing!
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
I'd like to point out that CM + SD has no real users of both besides Celebi, which baton passes both of them. I'll profile real fast

Absol:

I've never actually seen a CM absol. It's an interesting surprise set, theoretically, but it fails to muscle past fairies and it's not that strong, so at best it's like Fire Blast / Ice Beam Absol in lure sense, which can already be used on Swords Dance / all-out attacking sets, but with a strong Knock Off or Sucker Punch.
Arceus:

Strangely, Arceus doesn't see too many SD + CM types. Currently we have Arceus-Ground, though when times were better (i.e. primal donner was gone), there were a few, iirc Arceus-Water. I'm not really an expert on this, but for the most part individual types strongly prefer CM or SD. Also, arceus teaches us nothing about how to MAKE such a set, because it's just base 120 with a massive movepool and 18 different types to hope one sticks.

Celebi:

If i recall correctly, in gen 4 it did have CM + SD viably run. In the current era, it mostly just BPs them as i've stated above.

Cobalion:
In RU, it does have a very viable SD set and occasionally runs CM. I personally feel CM is fairly dangerous and underused, but it's mostly a lure set.

Darkrai:
IIRC Darkrai had an SD set at one point, but it's always NP'ing; never seen a CM set.

Gallade:
Never seen a CM set

Infernape:
definitely seen SD and NP, but NP > CM due to lack of bulk

Keldeo:

SD outclassed by CM thanks to Secret Sword. Though Aqua Jet is a thing, not worth it.

Landorus *
Humorously, SD was viable at one point, and CM is viable now, but the two have never been viable together.

Leavanny:
hue. SD can be o.k.

Lucario:
NP>SD

Mienshao:
Mienfoo CM passes sometimes, although that's not actually the subject. Shao, never seen a CM shao, doubt i ever will.
Mew
NP and SD have been viable, despite bulk, it's never really gone with CM, since it's just punctured by strong physical moves but, i guess a CM set could be o.k.

Serperior:
NU actually had both sets viable, or maybe PU did. A legitimately good example.
Terrakion:
terrible SpA means no CM
Virizion:
another legit example. But, it'd honestly rather use NP.
Weavile
terrible SpA. Plus, NP.
Zoroark
NP


mostly you got the base-mons, serp, and Cobal + viri. Some good example, but I do contend that many of them would rather NP for the most part, and we really haven't had any in OU. Still, it's a bit more explored than you might think.
 
I collected some stats on Pokemon in the real game that have access to multiple boosting moves. I collected these stats to get an idea of what already exists in the game, and how those existing pokemon might or might not utilize multiple boosts available to them. I have always been a stat junkie, and as I was looking over the stats, I thought others might find this interesting as well.

I first collected all the fully evolved pokemon that have access to the combinations of boosts we are considering for this CAP. Here are those lists of pokemon.

Bulk Up + Dragon Dance
Rayquaza
Scrafty


Bulk Up + Swords Dance
Barbaracle
Beartic
Breloom
Blaziken

Chesnaught
Diggersby
Gallade
Groudon
Hawlucha
Heracross

Infernape
Landorus
Lucario
Mew
Mienshao
Pangoro
Pinsir
Rayquaza
Toxicroak
Talonflame
Ursaring



Bulk Up + Nasty Plot
Infernape
Lucario
Mew
Thundurus
Toxicroak


Calm Mind + Swords Dance
Absol
Arceus
Celebi
Cobalion

Darkrai
Gallade
Infernape
Keldeo
Landorus *
Leavanny
Lucario
Mienshao
Mew
Serperior
Terrakion
Virizion
Weavile
Zoroark


Calm Mind + Dragon Dance
Latios


The bolded pokemon in those lists are the pokemon that actually USE both boosts in metagame battles, as shown below. Here are the boosting move stats for each pokemon in the lists above:

Code:
+----------------------------------------+
| Absol                                  |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 51.171%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Barbaracle                             |
+----------------------------------------+
| Shell Smash 80.742%                    |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Beartic                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 16.467%                   |
| Power-Up Punch  4.790%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Breloom                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 17.779%                   |
| Power-Up Punch  3.087%                 |
| Bulk Up  3.014%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Blaziken                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 30.653%                   |
| Bulk Up  5.836%                        |
| Power-Up Punch  3.706%                 |
| Hone Claws  2.169%                     |
| Agility  1.380%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Celebi                                 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Nasty Plot 24.897%                     |
| Calm Mind  5.598%                      |
| Swords Dance  5.152%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Chesnaught                             |
+----------------------------------------+
| Bulk Up  4.819%                        |
| Belly Drum  4.261%                     |
| Power-Up Punch  2.382%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Cobalion                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 19.100%                   |
| Calm Mind  8.411%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Darkrai                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Nasty Plot 49.105%                     |
| Calm Mind  4.059%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Diggersby                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 37.762%                   |
| Agility  4.217%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Gallade                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 50.116%                   |
| Bulk Up  7.384%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Groudon                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Rock Polish 23.248%                    |
| Swords Dance 12.243%                   |
| Bulk Up  3.933%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Hawlucha                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 58.502%                   |
| Hone Claws  7.678%                     |
| Bulk Up  3.589%                        |
| Power-Up Punch  1.995%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Heracross                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 17.755%                   |
| Bulk Up  3.523%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Infernape                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance  5.178%                   |
| Nasty Plot  4.479%                     |
| Power-Up Punch  2.650%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Keldeo                                 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Calm Mind 29.113%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Landorus-Therian                       |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance  2.682%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Landorus                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Rock Polish 23.788%                    |
| Calm Mind 13.432%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Latios                                 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Calm Mind  6.049%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Leavanny                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 15.421%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Lucario                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 46.863%                   |
| Nasty Plot 18.805%                     |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Mienshao                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| -- None --                             |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Mew                                    |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance  5.742%                   |
| Calm Mind  5.435%                      |
| Nasty Plot  4.249%                     |
| Iron Defense  1.957%                   |
| Bulk Up  1.710%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Pangoro                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Bulk Up  9.969%                        |
| Swords Dance  9.315%                   |
| Power-Up Punch  2.964%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Pinsir                                 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 72.492%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Rayquaza                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Dragon Dance 28.144%                   |
| Swords Dance 11.405%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Scrafty                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Dragon Dance 54.356%                   |
| Bulk Up 28.772%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Serperior                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| -- None --                             |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Talonflame                             |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 30.787%                   |
| Bulk Up  8.970%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Terrakion                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 13.054%                   |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Thundurus                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Nasty Plot 22.821%                     |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Thundurus-Therian                      |
+----------------------------------------+
| Nasty Plot 28.108%                     |
| Agility  5.732%                        |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Toxicroak                              |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 52.140%                   |
| Bulk Up  5.938%                        |
| Nasty Plot  2.239%                     |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Virizion                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 47.485%                   |
| Calm Mind 23.139%                      |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Ursaring                               |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 31.672%                   |
| Bulk Up  3.128%                        |
| Belly Drum  3.030%                     |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Weavile                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Swords Dance 19.612%                   |
| Power-Up Punch  2.075%                 |
+----------------------------------------+

+----------------------------------------+
| Zoroark                                |
+----------------------------------------+
| Nasty Plot 21.220%                     |
| Swords Dance  7.803%                   |
+----------------------------------------+
I listed every boosting move that pokemon uses, even if the boost moves are not being considered here. I collected the stats from the February Showdown stats for the tier most commonly associated with the pokemon in question.

A few interesting points I noticed:

Not surprisingly, Swords Dance is a really good move.
In most cases where pokemon had access to SD and another boosting move, SD was typically used much more often. A few exceptions to Swords Dance dominance were:
  • Celebi - With Nasty Plot much preferred, and even Calm Mind is used slightly more than SD
  • Chesnaught - Doesn't use SD at all, preferring to use Bulk Up, Belly Drum, and even PUP. Although all of Chesnaught's boosting moves are very low in terms of percentage usage anyway. But still an interesting anomaly, I think.
  • Groudon - Much prefers Rock Polish over SD, although a double dance set is a thing. With an attack stat fully double its speed stat, it's understandable that speed boosting is the primary concern. But it goes to show what kind of stat distribution is perhaps needed to make a physical pokemon forego the benefits of SD, in favor of something else.
  • Pangoro - The only pokemon that preferred Bulk Up over Swords Dance. Although the usage difference is less than one percentage point. Still if we decide to go with BU+SD, the panda could be worth looking at more closely to understand how the pokemon's build makes the two moves a toss-up.

We have lots of pokemon already in the game with access to BU+SD and CM+SD.
With both being TM's, this isn't too surprising. I was a bit surprised how many pokemon do, in fact, use both moves with detectable regularity. We should think long and hard about whether we really believe we can do something with CAP 20 on these two combos that is distinct from everything else that already has them. I'm not saying we CAN'T do something interesting with these moves. But sometimes CAP ignores evidence from the game/metagame and tries to overcome obvious, insurmountable hurdles. Let's keep our eyes wide open, if we go with BU/CM + SD.

The Dragon Dance combos we are considering are very rare in the game.
Not too much data to work with on these. With BU + DD, we have only Scrafty for reference. CM + DD only has one pokemon (Latios) with access to the combo and it doesn't use DD at all in Gen 6.​


I'm curious to hear some more subjective interpretations about these stats, if you are into this kind of thing!
I think one of the major factors in making SD more popular than BU and CM is that the advantage of the latter two (better bulk) is limited to just one type of defensive boost. Other than Gallade and Talonflame (the latter of which has incredible speed AND powerful priority that make it an anomaly) most of the Pokemon who run Bulk Up can be easily revenge killed by fast special attackers, while most of those that run Calm Mind can be revenge killed by fast physical attackers or (in OU) the priority attacks that run rampant. While Calm Mind and Bulk Up are superior to SD at gathering multiple boosts, the extra boosts and bulk don't mean anything if a Pokemon is going to be forced out by the same checks that would stop the SD set. As a result, the option that gives more immediate power is the more effective one in most cases.

While it is still highly unexplored, Dragon Dance will most likely make the best complement to Bulk Up because it allows us to bypass the "similar checks" problem of BU+SD. If our CAP's DD set is strong enough after one boost to OHKO most of the special attackers that can revenge kill the Bulk Up set (which will be further aided by the fact Pokemon not named Metagross don't usually have great Speed AND Defense stats) then CAP will be able to put its opponent in a situation where they don't know how to beat CAP just from Team Preview. If it's the DD set, then they're going to want to keep a physical wall or priority attacker healthy. If it's the BU set though, then those are exactly the types of Pokemon it can setup all over. Inversely, if the opponent thinks CAP is running the BU set, they will try to keep a fast special attacker healthy to revenge kill. If it turns out to be the DD set though, then that special attacker may not be good for anything other than making CAP take an extra life orb hit as it OHKO's the would-be revenge killer. This type of unpredictability is great for fulfilling the concept, as both sets may be perfectly manageable in a vacuum, but CAP can still be extremely deadly because you don't know exactly which check you're going to need at the end of the game.

Regarding Calm Mind, it could also work with Dragon Dance in theory, and as mentioned in the previous thread there are plenty of other ways to limit the effectiveness of priority revenge killers without Bulk Up. That said, I agree with srk that sticking to just physical or special is the way to go in order to avoid ridiculous stats, and the closest thing to a special version of dragon dance is unfortunately a Calm Mind boost plus speed. For that reason, I think it would be better to go with Bulk Up+Dragon Dance.
 

DetroitLolcat

Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I'm not a fan of Nasty Plot at all; there's a reason Nasty Plot sweepers are just not seen in OU these days. The only good user of Nasty Plot is Celebi, and even then it'll Baton Pass the boost just as often as it attempts to sweep with it. While there are numerous Physical priority moves for Physical sweepers to choose from, there is not a single good Special priority move to give to a Nasty Plot sweeper. The only way to mitigate that is with a great Speed stat or Gale Wings. Nasty Plot with a lot of Speed would make Bulk Up hard to accommodate, while Gale Wings is too restrictive.

I'm also not a big fan of mixed boosting because it'll be very difficult to fit into the CAP process. Calm Mind + Swords Dance will require good Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense, and at least decent Speed to pull off. Calm Mind lends itself to bulky boosting and thus requires solid bulk on both sides to pull off. Swords Dance requires either both solid Attack and Speed or priority to pull off, and if a Pokemon is great at Swords Dancing then it won't be as inclined to run Calm Mind. In essence, I'm skeptical if it's feasible to make a good Calm Mind and Swords Dance user within the confines of the CAP process. Calm Mind + Dragon Dance is slightly better because we won't need priority or great Speed to pull off, so if we go with Calm Mind it should be in addition to Dragon Dance.

My favorite combination, by far, is Bulk Up + Dragon Dance. It's by far the best suited to the CAP process because it won't take enormous BSR or movepool to pull off. Bulk Up (or Coil) requires very good Attack and Special Defense (and good Defense), while Dragon Dance requires very good Attack and good Speed. The movepool overlap between a good Bulk Up and Dragon Dance user is significant as well. They both like strong Physical moves, appreciate but don't require recovery, and will almost always use a boosting move and either three-move coverage or two-move coverage and a defensive tactic. It's both the easiest option to build out of the five and is the most likely to result in a Pokemon that actually uses both boosting sets, especially if we substitute Coil for Bulk Up and use lower-accuracy moves.
 

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
While in general I prefer the idea of going mixed, due to it having an easier time dealing with counters of the set it is not currently using, since we are planning to use a defensive booster, I'm not sure how viable going mixed will be. While I could have seen it with either two different +2 boosters, or DD and a +2, without access to either a speed boost or a +2 on both sides, it will be hard to make that type of offense not be overshadowed. I'm not going to say it is impossible. Doug's stats clearly show that there are Pokemon that do it. However, almost all of those Pokemon fit into a very similar mold: 100+ speed, identical offenses, and great bulk. The only exceptions are Landorus (who only qualifies to begin with because of effectively being two different Pokemon) and Toxicroak. While I do think it would be possible to make Pokemon that uses a combo of BU+NP or SD+CM that doesn't follow this pattern, I do think it is very telling, and I believe that overall it would not be the best way to go.

As far as what I do think would be a good approach, Dragon Dance + Bulk Up would probably be my preferred combination. The fact that they have an equivalent power boost on the same side makes fitting offensive stats easier, while at the same time, the different secondary boost gives them completely different functions. While it does concern me that anything that could wall either of them AND run a phazing move would be nearly impossible to beat, which is not idea for this concept, I think we can get around that with careful selection of counters along with other measures taken throughout the project.
 
For me, Bulk Up + Dragon Dance is the best option here.

It avoids the problems of mixed boosting: good stats in all areas, making it OP, and also the possibility of a mixed attacking set which avoids the concept altogether. In addition, unlike Sword Dance sets, both options are fairly equal and are less likely to be imbalanced, if we get the stats right.

This duo requires less resources than other options: they don't need the SpA that mixed boosting sets do and require a much smaller movepool than mixed boosting sets do, as both boosting options like similar moves, as @DetriotLolcat commented on. Moreover, although both are physical, they still allows us to have different checks and counters, as they play rather differently - BU can run a stallbreaking set, while D-Dance can function as a sweeper - which is why this option is better than BU + SD.

Having said that, the only user of this combo is Scrafty, and it also much easier to wall than the mixed attacking combos that are proposed. However, I believe that we can overcome this problem if we get other areas, such as movepool and counters, correct.
 
Bulk Up + Dragon Dance is going to be our best bet.

The problem with all of the mixed options are that, like everybody has already said, that in the case of mixed boosting not only will we need to create an absurd stat spread (We will need good Attack, Special Attack, whatever defensive boost we will get (Both in the case of Calm Mind + Bulk Up) and usable speed) and its pretty much guaranteed that one of the sweeping spread will outclass the other.

In the case of Bulk Up + Swords Dance, we have a similar case, which is that Swords Dance is the superior option to Bulk Up in almost all cases, simply because of the fact that Swords Dance boosts your attack by 2 stages, and extra bulk really doesn't make up for the power loss

Bulk Up + Dragon Dance doesn't have these problems, as Bulk Up and Dragon Dance both boost by the same amount of attack, so both of the moves can be used equally for different sets, Dragon Dance can be used for fast sweeping and Bulk Up can be used for more bulky sweeping such as Cro sets.
 
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