CAP 20 CAP 20 - Part 10 - Moveset Discussion

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paintseagull

pink wingull
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Welcome to the *new* Moveset Discussion. Please read carefully below as our process has changed significantly. Pay close attention to Snobalt , the Movepool leader, and nyttyn, the CAP20 TL as they guide discussion and lead us through the changes.

In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be four kinds of posts in the thread:
  • Moveset Submissions
  • Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
  • General Commentary
  • Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates
This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:
  1. People post moveset submissions in a prescribed format (see below)
  2. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
  3. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
  4. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
  5. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)

By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:
  • The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
  • The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community


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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Sucker Punch
Move 3: U-turn
Move 4: Stone Edge
Ability: Guts
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Nature: Jolly
  • Because of CAP X's Fire typing, Flare Blitz does a lot of damage.
  • Sucker Punch allows it priority, as well as the ability to handle Slowking.
  • Stone Edge allows it to OHKO Talonflame
  • U-Turn can be used to scout, as well as abuse predicted switches.
  • Choice Band is used to amplify damage, and fulfil CAP X's role as a wallbreaker
  • In case CAP X gets hit by status conditions, Guts raises its damage output to even higher levels.

Code:
[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]
Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc. These movesets will be put on the CAP subsite immediately at the end of the CAP for the playtest.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


-------------------
Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

---

CAP20 so far:

Leadership Team:
nyttyn - Topic Leader
Ununhexium - Typing Leader
trc - Abilities Leader
HeaLnDeaL - Stats Leader
Snobalt - Movepool Leader​

Concept:
Name: Use the Boost to Get Through!

General Description: A sweeper with several boosting options that result in completely different checks and counters. While each set should be viable in its own right, the unpredictability of this Pokemon should make it much better than any one set alone.

Justification: In the early days of Pokemon X and Y, we experienced the first Pokemon that could (viably) boost and sweep from either the physical or special side: Mega Lucario. While it was clear his unpredictability could have a devastating effect (having your Chansey eat a Close Combat, Will-O-Wisping on the Nasty Plot, etc.) the true extent to which this could make a Pokemon better was masked by the fact that Lucario's sets were both already amazing. The purpose of this concept would therefore be to explore the impact of unpredictability in sweepers by creating a Pokemon that can run several boosting sets, none of which are dominant in their own right, but that when combined can result in an extremely dangerous threat.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • Is there a limit to how much unpredictability can make a Pokemon better? Can it make a decent Pokemon great? Or can it only make them usable?
  • How does being unpredictable with boosting options compare to other forms of unpredictability (such as uncommon coverage moves or trying to speed creep certain threats)? Is unpredictability in sweepers inherently more dangerous because of how easily they can win a game?
  • For a Pokemon that is already unpredictable, will we see the use of strange coverage moves (as many sweepers tend to run) or will it tend to stick to standard sets because it already has the element of surprise?
  • Which boosting moves are distinct enough to completely change a Pokemon's checks/counters? Are Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Agility the only ones that can fit this concept? Or is there a way to incorporate moves such as Dragon Dance without giving the Pokemon "the best of both worlds".
  • How effective will double boosting sets be on this Pokemon? Will the ability to "pick your counters" on a Pokemon already designed to bypass its counters be too good? Or can it be designed so that the loss of coverage will still leave it with several checks and counters on any set?
  • To what extent will teams have to prepare for this Pokemon? Will they have to pack several checks/counters like for M-Lucario? Or will they be able to just use a standard team so long as they can identify the set early?
Type: Water / Steel
Abilities: Water Veil / Heatproof
Stats: 103 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 95 SpA / 65 SpD / 97 Spe

Art:
 

Empress

Will Will Smith smith? Yes, Will Smith will smith.
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Hi guys! I'm Snobalt and I will be your Movepool leader for CAP 20.

For those who haven't followed the Policy Review thread, we have a new process for how we are to go about the Movepool stage. This part of the process is the Moveset Submission stage, where we propose already-completed movesets for the Pokemon. Once someone has posted a movepool submission, their submissions are open to feedback from the community. To leave feedback, put the submitted moveset in an unattributed quote box...
..like this one.
Make any additions in bold text and any deletions in strikethrough text and comment on why you made the changes that you did. Or, if you feel that a proposed moveset needs no changes, comment why it doesn't.

I will keep track of the proposed movesets that achieve consideration in this post. Those that have reached intelligent community consensus will be posted under Approved, while those that are still pending will be posted in Under Consideration. At the end of this section, if there remain any movesets or moves that are still in Under Consideration, the controversial movesets/moves will go to a poll. If you are still confused by this process, please refer to the PR thread on movepool issues to learn about what it is and why we decided to switch to it. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/movepool-issues.3522292/

Also, a few things to remember:
- The moveset discussion phase is for competitive moves only. No flavor-based submissions or comments will be accepted.
- Obviously, we need both at least one moveset for both Dragon Dance and Calm Mind, though we may end up with multiple variations of each one.
- If you're unsure about which coverage moves to put in your moveset submission, refer to nyttyn's closing post in the Counters Discussion to get a better sense on what you should and should not consider. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-20-part-8-counters-discussion.3537014/#post-6196745

Alrighty then- it's time to submit some movesets!

Approved Movesets
Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks
Name: Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall / Iron Head
Move 3: Iron Head / Icicle Crash / Ice Punch
Move 4: Wild Charge
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe OR 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Item: Life Orb
  • Because of CAP 20’s Steel/Water typing and Water Viel ability, it is able to set up Dragon Dances on a plethora of common mons, such as Clefable and Mega Sableye.
  • Dragon Dance allows it to outspeed the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier, Landorus-T.
  • Waterfall and Iron Head are your main forms of stab, allowing you to deal with bulky ground types as well as pesky fairies like Unaware Clefable who are 2HK0’d despite ignoring your boosts.
  • Ice coverage gives this CAP perfect neutral coverage alongside Wild Charge and hits Landorus-T harder than Waterfall does
  • Wild Charge rounds out CAP20's coverage, giving it neutral coverage on most of the metgame, barring a few exceptions such as Ferrothorn and Gastrodon. Wild Charge lets CAP20 OHKO Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo at +1, and heavily damages foes such as Mega Slowbro, Suicune, and Skarmory, allowing CAP20 to sweep past them if they have been sufficiently weakened. Keep in mind that Life Orb recoil piles up quickly alongside Wild Charge recoil.
Calm Mind
Name: Calm Mind
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Recover
Move 4: Flash Cannon / Refresh
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA OR 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD
Nature: Bold
Item: Leftovers
  • Calm Mind is required
  • Scald is primary STAB move
  • Recover heals off damage taken
  • Last move is filler. Flash Cannon allows CAP to beat stuff such as Clefable and Altaria and Refresh allows it to heal off status, primarily paralysis and burn.
  • EVs and item are self explanatory, while the second EV spread ensures Timid Heatran does not 2HKO with Earth Power when the CAP is at +1
Movesets Under Consideration
Stallbreaker CM
Name: Stallbreaker CM
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Recover
Move 4: Substitute / Taunt
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA OR 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD
Nature: Bold
Item: Leftovers
  • Calm Mind is required
  • Scald is primary STAB move
  • Recover heals off damage taken
  • Taunt allows CAP to beat stuff such as Clefable and Altaria. Substitute really allows you to have an easy safety net against a few things. Blocking Spore, an ill timed thunder wave from Thundurus etc (not that T-Wave is super destructive against CM but w.e, Leach Seed and so on. Its main purpose is to get CAP in on something it can force out, then set up a substitute and spam Scald. Stuff like Lati@s can still take Scalds, but burn chance is pretty gay to them, and any physical sweeper is going to hate going up against that Scald coinflip. Substitute is also cool against stuff that likes to Volt Switch since they break the sub ---> switch out and you still have your free turn. IDK, I think its pretty obvious how the set works and what it does so I dont think I need an essay here.
  • EVs and item are self explanatory, while the second EV spread ensures Timid Heatran does not 2HKO with Earth Power when the CAP is at +1
Stallbreaker DD
Name: Stallbreaker DD
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 4: Iron Head / Icicle Crash / Recover
Move 4: Taunt / Substitute
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe OR 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Item: Life Orb
  • Dragon Dance enables the CAP to sweep.
  • Waterfall and Iron Head are accurate, reliable STABs with good neutral coverage, and the chance to flinch can be a lifesaver in a lot of situations.
  • Ice coverage gives this CAP strong neutral coverage and hits Landorus-T harder than Waterfall does
  • Recover allows the CAP to heal itself, which is important when stallbreaking
  • Taunt is great to disable non-Power Whip Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Suicune, Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Empoleon and to some extent Amoonguss and Quagsire, all usual checks to the DD set.
  • Alternatively, Substitute can be used to block Leech Seeds from Ferrothorn and give the CAP an easier time against Slowbro while working better against offensive teams than Taunt, but is generally inferior to Taunt since it doesn't help against Suicune , Skarmory or Mandibuzz.
  • Water Veil is obviously preferred, but Heatproof can be usable if the CAP runs Sub, since that enables is Sub not to be broken by Fire Blast from Slowbro.
  • Leftovers prevents the CAP from going down to repeated Scalds from bulky Waters as easily
 
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nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Here's two submissions already lined up, both to discuss upon, and use as examples of what we are looking for in this stage.


By user aim

Moveset Submission

Name: Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 3: Iron Head
Move 4: Knock Off
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Life Orb/Leftovers
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe

  • Because of CAP 20’s Steel/Water typing and Water Viel ability, it is able to set up Dragon Dances on a plethora of common mons, such as Clefable and Mega Sableye.
  • Dragon Dance allows it to outspeed the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier, Landorus-T.
  • Waterfall and Iron Head are your main forms of stab, allowing you to deal with bulky ground types as well as pesky fairies like Unaware Clefable who are 2HK0’d despite ignoring your boosts.
  • Knock Off is the final move as it gives you a way to punish pokemon that would otherwise give you problems early on such as Rotom-W and Ferrothorn, allowing you to get rid of their item and later on Dragon Dance when they are weakened. It also gives you a reliable way of knocking out Latias/Latios as opposed to going for the roll after Stealth Rock at +1.
  • Life Orb is the preferred item for its sheer power as it allows you to easily take out Choice Scarf Landorus-T after a DD, despite intimidate neutralizing your attack, 100% of the time. Leftovers is also an option for survivability and taking resisted hits better such as Latios’ Draco Meteor, Talonflame’s Brave Bird etc.
  • The EV spread allows you to outspeed Choice Scarf Landorus-T after a Dragon Dance as well as have a bit of bulk. An alternative spread of 252 Atk/Spe is fine as well.


By user sparktrain


Moveset Submission

Name: Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 3: Iron Head
Move 4: Wild Charge
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Dragon Dance boosts CAP20's Attack and Speed, allowing it to punch through weakened walls and attempt a sweep late-game. With a Jolly nature and maximum investment in Speed, CAP20 outpaces Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T and Kyurem-B after a boost.
  • Waterfall is a reliable STAB move, easily OHKOing foes such as Talonflame and Excadrill, and can OHKO Tyranitar and Heatran after a boost. Waterfall can also OHKO opposing Choice Scarf Landorus-T at +0, which prevents it from safely checking CAP20, and still does around 60-70% to physically defensive Landorus-T.
  • Iron Head is another reliable STAB move, hitting foes such as Mega Altaria, Clefable, and Kyurem-B super effectively. It also hits foes such as Latios neutrally, allowing CAP20 to OHKO it at +1 after Stealth Rock damage.
  • Wild Charge rounds out CAP20's coverage, giving it neutral coverage on most of the metgame, barring a few exceptions such as Ferrothorn and Gastrodon. Wild Charge lets CAP20 OHKO Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo at +1, and heavily damages foes such as Mega Slowbro, Suicune, and Skarmory, allowing CAP20 to sweep past them if they have been sufficiently weakened. Keep in mind that Life Orb recoil piles up quickly alongside Wild Charge recoil.


As a reminder, a useful list of how various moves affect the list of things that can and cannot check/counter us is located here
 
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I think I'll do the Cro Set

Moveset Submission
Name: CroCAP
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Calm Mind
Move 3: Rest
Move 4: Sleep Talk
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Kee Berry / Leftovers
  • This is the standard 4 moves for a Cro Set.
  • Scald is your STAB of choice, as the burns can help with the physical attackers.
  • Calm mind gives the main boosting.
  • Rest gives the CAP immunity to the main statuses, and a good source of recovery, so Heatproof is the better ability over Water Veil, as burns are solved by Rest.
  • Sleep Talk abuses the lots of time we are asleep, letting us attack, or get a Calm Mind.
  • The item is a weird one. Leftovers is your go-to choice, but Kee berry gives us a +1 Def boost when taking a physical attack. Switch this guy in on a resisted physical move, and then start the CM boosts.
Well, this was an early concept, so could people look at this one a bit.

Moveset Submission
Set: Mixed Double Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Calm Mind
Move 3: Scald
Move 4: Iron Head / Coverage Filler
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 196 Atk / 68 SpA / 36 SpD / 208 Spe
Nature: Naive

  • This sets main niche is the face that pokemon can run both boosting moves. Dragon Dance lets the pokemon get speed, and attack boosts. When they see this, it will usually prompt physical walls to enter. Then the game becomes flipped, as you Calm Mind on the switch. With this up, you then can scald their physical wall, and cause it some trouble, or, with the setup switched, you can get a special wall in with an iron head threatening. This gives the CAP some real diversity, and can cause pokemon like sableye, who think they are save Vs the Special set, lose as a +1 iron head makes contact.
  • Scald is chosen as the special move of choice. With burns possible, it can make the CAP a threatening force to be reckoned with.
  • Iron head is probably your main choice of final move, but other coverage is good too, such as Drain Punch.
  • With the investment and life orb, the CAP can OHKO scarfed landorus-t after stealth rocks with scald. If you can assertain the opponent is a bulkier set, just calm mind, and it will be OHKOed by scald. The speed lets us outpace jolly landorus-t. 36SpD and nature makes sure +6 0 SpA Clefable's Moonblast will not OHKO us, except for if there are hazards up, while the att investment is a solid 2HKO onto all clefable.
 
Last edited:

Ununhexium

dishwasher
is a Social Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Name: Calm Mind
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Recover
Move 4: Flash Cannon / Taunt / Refresh (filler)
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Nature: Bold

  • Calm Mind is required
  • Scald is primary STAB move
  • Recover heals off damage taken. This is a controversial topic, so I'll try to justify it in that it doesn't cure status nor fully restore HP. I'll elaborate more when I have access to a computer.
  • Last move is filler. Flash Cannon and Taunt allow CAP to beat stuff such as Clefable and Altaria (and other things but I still have no computer) and Refresh allows it to heal off status, primarily paralysis and burn.
  • EVs and item are self explanatory. I'll check when I can to see what relevant defensive benchmarks or Speed benchmarks may be needed
 

aim

pokeaimMD
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Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Stall Breaker
Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Scald/Hydro Pump
Move 3: Flash Cannon
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Leftovers/Life Orb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Nature: Timid
  • Due to CAP 20's typing it can act as an excellent stall breaker. Immunity to Poison and Burn allows it to beat a plethora of stall mons such as Chansey and Mega Sableye.
  • Taunt is needed on the set to stop Chansey and Clefable from recovering as well as Skarmory from phazing you out.
  • Scald is the preferred choice as it allows you to burn Chansey and beat it quicker. This also allows you to deal with Mega Sableye who can only annoy you with Knock Off as it cannot burn you. Scald also helps burn Quagsire. Hydro Pump is another option for more damage and solid 2HK0's without burns on pokemon like Mega Sableye.
  • Flash Cannon allows you to 2HK0 Unaware Clefable as well as deal with Mega Sableye with SpDef drops.
  • Recover is the final move as it allows you to "stall out stall" as it has no way of really doing damage to you outside of moves like Seismic Toss, Knock Off, Moonblast etc.
  • Leftovers or Life Orb depending on how much damage you want to do. Life Orb is the preferred option for outright power. Couples well with Recover.
  • The EVs are pretty straight forward. Max sp atk and speed to still outspeed threats such as Landorus-t and stall breaker Mew. The rest is dump in special attack for damage output.
  • This set was made to be an offensive stall breaker but functions well vs Offense and Balance as well.
 
Moveset Submission
Name: Anti-Calm Mind
Move 1: Scald/ Hydro Pump
Move 2: Roar
Move 3: Calm Mind
Move 4: Rest / Freeze Dry
Ability: Water Veil/ Heatproof
Item: Leftovers / Mystic Water / life Orb
EVs: (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA)

Nature: Bold / Modest

This Set's goal is pretty straight forward set up and anything that tries to take advantage of that set up to be switched out so you can sweep.
  • First move:Mystic Water Boosted Scald is your stab move of choice, but if power is needed the life orb hydro pump and modest nature can supply that power. Plus Hydro Pump guarantee's 2hko on tyranitar-m in the sand for the offensive variation of this set.

  • Second Move:Roar is personally the thing that differentiates my set from the other's as it allows the cap to set up against the opposing mon thats trying to set up against it or trying to stall it out and then force them out and laughs as it obliterates the opposing team with it's newly improved bulk and power. Mega slowbro is a great mon for this set to set up on, as mega bro can set up pretty well against the dragon dance sets we can set up easily against it and roar it away once were ready and then to proceed to really hurt the other team if our counters have been dealt with. Taunt is another option if you want to beat more defensive threats that might not set up on you.

  • Calm mind is obligatory and the main point of this mon's set

  • Fourth Move: this move is really up to the movepool submission and the user's preference. Rest allows the cap easier set up and allows the mon to pretty easily restore its health in 4hko situation, allowing the mon to setup pretty easily and without that much worry. Other recovery moves would work here as well, but as they majorly change our threat list for both sets i'm playing safe by choosing rest. Freeze dry is the option of choice as it provides very nice coverage along side our water stab, also Freeze Dry hits Bulky water types super effectively. Allowing us to deal with mega Swampert, Suicune, slowbro much easier, it also gives us a move to use super effectively on manaphy. Ice beam is the more powerful option, but it has worse coverage so that is it is not preferred over freeze dry. Flash cannon is nice if you want another stab or a move to deal with fairies, but other that ice has better coverage so freeze dry or ice beam are the preferred coverage option.

  • Water veil makes the cap take no damage at all from status damage, allowing the cap a easier set up.This best run with the offensive boosting items such as mystic water and life orb so that passive damage can't rack up on you as you set up. Heatproof is better if you are running leftovers because it allows you to tank hits that otherwise my leave you crippled (eg. fireblast from offensive volcarona) even though now you can be burned the the burn damage is lowered and can be negated by leftovers.

  • Ev's are purely for tanking physical hits the best you possibly can, as you will not be boosting this stat during the battle. Bold nature is preferred as it enhances physical bulk and as we our boosting our SpA modest is more of user preference and should not be used unless more power is needed and/or wanted.

Tanky attacking mons

Kyurem (Mono Water coverage)
+3 4 SpA Mystic Water CAP 20 Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 186-219 (47.5 - 56%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

(186, 188, 190, 192, 195, 197, 199, 201, 204, 206, 208, 210, 213, 215, 217, 219)

Latias
+3 4 SpA Mystic Water CAP 20 Scald vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 99-117 (31 - 36.6%) -- 65.3% chance to 3HKO

(99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 105, 105, 107, 108, 109, 111, 111, 113, 114, 115, 117)

Aggron-M
+3 4 SpA Mystic Water CAP 20 Scald vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 229-270 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(229, 231, 234, 237, 240, 243, 244, 247, 250, 253, 256, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270)

Scizor-M
+3 4 SpA Mystic Water CAP 20 Scald vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 210-247 (61.2 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(210, 211, 214, 217, 219, 222, 225, 226, 229, 232, 234, 237, 240, 241, 244, 247)

Tyranitar-M
+3 4 SpA Mystic Water CAP 20 Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 390-458 (114.3 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(390, 392, 398, 402, 408, 410, 416, 420, 426, 428, 434, 438, 444, 446, 452, 458)

Heatran
+3 4 SpA Mystic Water CAP 20 Scald vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 360-426 (93.5 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

(360, 366, 368, 372, 378, 380, 386, 390, 396, 398, 402, 408, 410, 416, 420, 426)

All of these mons except Tyranitar- M cant 2hko us and so we can set up relatively safely on them with a good recovery move and the proceed to either roar them away once we have boosted enough or kill them.

Mons that are easy to set up on with this set

Suicune: as long as suicune doesn't run roar, suicune can be switched in on by cap and then set up along side suicune then roar it away when it wants to sweep.
+6 4 SpA Mystic Water CAP 20 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 242-285 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(242, 244, 247, 250, 253, 256, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282, 285)

Suicune doesn't really care about the burn since it depends on rest, so the higher output move in hydro pump really helps win the calm mind war, that said scald guaranteed 3hkos and some bad luck on the opponent's side will make scald the better option to sweep the rest of the team. Again though we pretty much cant lose this battle if the opponent tries to set up and lacks roar. Even if it does have roar we are faster so as long as we time our roar right we can out speed their roar or switch them out while we have a boost.


Slowbro-M: very similar to suicune except even better. Because roar is not an issue you can easily set up on this thing only slightly worrying about thunderwave and even that is remedied by rest. simply set up along side and roar away when your ready to take on the rest of the team.
+5 4 SpA Mystic Water CAP 20 Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(208, 211, 213, 216, 218, 221, 223, 225, 228, 231, 233, 235, 238, 240, 243, 246)

This happens from you setting up on slowbro and forcing it out every time it tries to set up rinse and repeat till its dead. Unboosted attack damage is extremely minimal on both sides, so roaring is incredibly important its more of a question of when if the opponent goes all the way up to +5 with you then your set but most opponents wont go that high with you so you need to time your roar correctly.


Venusaur-M: A Little harder to deal with if it has leech seed, but other then that you are totally fine as even the offensive mega Venusaur doesn't outspeed so you can get a calm mind off before it sleep powders you if it runs that move. On top of that its stab's lack any damage once we have a boost or two. so we can simply boost on this thing as long as it doesn't leech seed us. Even physical with earthquake cant 2hko us so no matter what set this runs if it lacks leech seed it's a set up opportunity.
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD CAP 20: 123-145 (30 - 35.3%) -- 27.5% chance to 3HKO[/B]

(123, 124, 126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145)

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD CAP 20: 93-109 (22.6 - 26.5%) -- 22.5% chance to 4HKO

(93, 93, 94, 96, 96, 97, 99, 100, 100, 102, 103, 105, 105, 106, 108, 109)
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. +3 252 HP / 0 SpD CAP 20: 75-88 (18.2 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO

(75, 75, 76, 76, 78, 79, 79, 81, 81, 82, 84, 84, 85, 85, 87, 88)

use REST or other recovery

Continue set up or This

+3 4 SpA Mystic Water CAP 20 Scald vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 105-125 (29.2 - 34.8%) -- 9.9% chance to 3HKO

(105, 107, 108, 109, 111, 112, 113, 114, 116, 117, 118, 120, 120, 122, 123, 125)

which I admit doesn't look amazing, but because of our burn chance and bulk we are doing double the damage that it's doing to us and we have a chance to burn so this is the point where the cap can beat this thing and not set up any more if you choose to attack.




Chansey: Thanks to our ability in water veil and steel typing chansey's best strategy is seriously hindered. Sure seismic toss puts a bit of pressure on us but thanks to our HP stat seismic toss is 5hko so we can set up and recover and roar away chansey when it gets to annoying to us. Then we can get a free hit turn as it switches back in to try wall us with this said unless we have rocks up and +6 we still have a hard time koing this behemoth. However with rocks up and +6 we beat this thing and pretty much everything else on the team that can't ohko the CAP.
+6 4 SpA Mystic Water CAP 20 Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 279-328 (43.4 - 51%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(279, 282, 285, 288, 291, 295, 298, 301, 304, 307, 312, 315, 318, 321, 324, 328)

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP CAP 20: 100-100 (24.3 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

(100)

Other options:
An offensive variation can run Ev's (152HP / 180 Def / 36 SpA / 144 SpE) which greatly increases the caps chances at winning against physical threats 1 vs 1 namely (Tyranitar, Scarfed Landorus-T, Tank Garchomp, and Mega Swampert) because we can outspeed them 2hko them and none of them can reliably ohko us. Plus, we out speed all non speedy nature base 71's and lower. Hydro Pump is the kill move on Tyranitar and Lando and Freeze Dry on Swampert and Garchomp, ice beam can be used for more power but freeze dry's increased coverage helps ko a larger list of mons and therefore is preferred. However these Ev's do make us lose some of our special tankiness so it does make it harder for us to set up on Venusaur - M and Latias. Flash Cannon can also be used, if fairies are an issue to your team or if you want to run another stab.

(mod edit: Don't use excessive or over-the-top names)
(
hendrix edit: sorry, I got a little carried away )
 
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Albacore

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Moveset Submission
Name: Stallbreaker DD
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 4: Play Rough
Move 4: Taunt / Substitute
Ability: Water Veil / Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

  • Dragon Dance enables the CAP to sweep.
  • Waterfall is accurate, reliable STAB with good neutral coverage, and the chance to flinch can be a lifesaver in a lot of situations.
  • Play Rough is solid coverage for this set, hitting Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny, Breloom, Latios, Latias, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, Kingdra and Dragonite super effectively and giving it good neutral coverage against Water-types.
  • Taunt is great to disable non-Power Whip Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Suicune, Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Empoleon and to some extent Amoonguss and Quagsire, all usual checks to the DD set.
  • Alternatively, Substitute can be used to block Leech Seeds from Ferrothorn and give the CAP an easier time against Slowbro while working better against offensive teams than Taunt, but is generally inferior to Taunt since it doesn't help against Suicune , Skarmory or Mandibuzz.
  • Water Veil is obviously preferred, but Heatproof can be usable if the CAP runs Sub, since that enables is Sub not to be broken by Fire Blast from Slowbro.
  • Leftovers prevents the CAP from going down to repeated Scalds from bulky Waters as easily
  • Full offensive EVs gives the CAP more sweeping prowess, specifically it lets it OHKO Mega Lopunny with Play Rough after a boost, and a Jolly nature enables the CAP to outspeed Scarf Landorus-T at +1.
 
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Moveset Submission
Name: Anti-Conk Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 3: Zen Headbutt
Move 4: Blaze Kick
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Life Orb
Spread: 16 HP/252 ATK/32 DEF/208 Speed
Nature: Jolly

So this is a slightly weird set, but there is a method to this madness. Currently, we have the problem that Megagross can beat both sets assuming the CM set fails to burn, and Conkelldur beats us even if we burn In fact, burning actually puts us in a worse spot in that case. This is basically a counter set to the remaining counters. Blaze Kick hits Steel types, and Zen Headbutt hits Conk. Waterfall allows us to hit Landorus-T, which we can't afford not to hit.

The Spread has enough speed to hit Choice Lando-T even if he's fully Speed invested and OHKO it, this is the reason for it's ATK and Speed spread. 16 HP minimizes the damage we take from our own Life Orb. The rest goes to defense, since we can't take a hit on the Special side anyway.
 

ginganinja

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Moveset Submission
Name: SubCM
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Calm Mind
Move 4: Recover
Move 4: Substitute
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: Pretty much anything can work here, but 252 HP / 252 Speed for speed, or 252 HP 252 Def for a more defensive spread. I think speed is better tho
Nature: See above, it could vary.

  • Scald is stab and burn. Really annoying to switch into.
  • I will infract anyone that asks me why I'm running Calm Mind on a Calm Mind set. It should be obvious.
  • Recover exists to basically allow you to outlast your counters that lack recovery, letting you abuse Substitute as much as possible. Healing is good and thats my reasoning
  • Substitute really allows you to have an easy safety net against a few things. Blocking Spore, an ill timed thunder wave from Thundurus etc (not that T-Wave is super destructive against CM but w.e, Leach Seed and so on. Its main purpose is to get CAP in on something it can force out, then set up a substitute and spam Scald. Stuff like Lati@s can still take Scalds, but burn chance is pretty gay to them, and any physical sweeper is going to hate going up against that Scald coinflip. Substitute is also cool against stuff that likes to Volt Switch since they break the sub ---> switch out and you still have your free turn. IDK, I think its pretty obvious how the set works and what it does so I dont think I need an essay here.
  • Heatproof is prolly better since I guess you can take fire moves better and I doubt people are actively going to spam burn moves against this CAP + you have Sub so ye.
  • You can do a lot with the EVs. I'm pretty sure some guru can work out an optimal spread or something, but the sets just going to act as a really bullshit boosting status platform which is going to be annoying as hell if you lack like the typical hard counters to this set.
 
Name: Calm Mind
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Taunt / Flash Cannon
Move 3: Calm Mind
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Heatproof / Water Veil
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD
Nature: Bold

*More simplified version of the CM CAP, this set aims to use its typing and bulk to set up multiple Calm Minds
*EV spread ensures Timid Heatran does not 2HKO with Earth Power when the CAP is at +1
*Taunt allows the CAP to break through Slowbro, Chansey, and Ferrothorn a lot easier, whereas Flash Cannon nails Clefable, though Taunt already annoys it
*Calm Mind is standard
*Recover allows the CAP to heal itself, which is important when stallbreaking
 
Moveset Submission
Name: Mixed DD
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Dragon Dance
Move 3: Sky Uppercut
Move 4: Iron Head/Waterfall
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Naughty/Naive Adamant/Jolly

  • The purpose of this set is to use Scald early game to weaken Cap's checks, land potential burns, and make the opponent believe Cap is a Calm Mind variant.
  • Dragon Dance allows Cap to go for a late game sweep once it's checks have been weakened enough. Thanks to the misdirection created by Scald, Cap has a fairly good chance of gathering multiple boosts once it goes for the sweep.
  • Sky Uppercut provides a means of beating Ferrothorn and other steel types while allowing Cap to hit a lot more threats for neutral damage.
  • Iron Head rounds out coverage for this set with a physical STAB and a decent flinch chance (very nice for Cap once it's at +2 speed). Waterfall can also be used to beat Scarf Lando-T, but Scald already does a lot of damage from +0 so it's probably better to just soften him up and then use Scald to finish him off.
  • Adamant is the preferred nature for the extra power it provides. This set will often gather 2 boosts due to the surprise factor, making the extra speed of Jolly unnecessary. If Waterfall is being run to beat Scarf Landorus-T though, Jolly should be used so Cap can outspeed and win after a single boost.

Note: Sky Uppercut was chosen over Close Combat in order to prevent non-Life Orb variants of Cap from OHKOing Magnezone at +1. Allowing Leftovers variants to do that seemed to mess with the threats list too much in my opinion. By that same token, I also chose it over Drain Punch both for more immediate power, and to make sure Bulky Dragon Dance has to dedicate a move to recovery instead of getting three move coverage with Drain Punch to heal up.
 
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Deck Knight

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Moveset Submission
Set: Counter-shocking Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Iron Head / Waterfall
Move 3: Bounce
Move 4: Seed Bomb
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 92 Def / 164 Spe
Nature: Adamant

  • Specialized set that can survive Choice Scarf Keldeo Secret Sword after Stealth Rock and KO at +1 with Seed Bomb - all other Keldeo variants are KO'd at +1 without retaliation. (OO Note: If you use Expert Belt instead of Life Orb, you OHKO without taking recoil, but the set loses too much general effectiveness)
  • Iron Head provides STAB and allows CAP to break through Clefable, Waterfall is more effective against opposing Steel types and can 2HKO Mega Manectric from +0.
  • Bounce OHKO's Conkeldurr at +1, forcing it to switch out or preventing it from switching in. It also has a very small chance of OHKO'ing Keldeo after SR, and ~50% after 1 Layer of Spikes)
  • EVs allow CAP to survive Secret Sword from Scarf Keldeo after SR, Speed EVs allow it to outspeed Mega Manectric at +1 (406 Spe at +1, 271 Spe at +0)
  • Without maximum speed investment, the power boost from Adamant is preferred over the damage you would lose from swapping Spe and Attack with Jolly.
  • If using Iron Head, choose partner Pokemon that can eliminate opposing Steel types that could otherwise dampen a sweep.
 
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Moveset Submission
Name: Stallbreaker DD
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Taunt / Substitute
Move 4: Waterfall / Iron Head
Move 4: Play Rough Horn Leech / Drain Punch
Ability: Water Veil / Heatproof
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Since this set is extremely kinda similar to what Albacore already posted, I felt like it should be a variation of the Stallbreaker DD set rather than its own set. I did take the liberty of shuffling the order of the moves around tho. Anyways, justification:
  • Taunt and Dragon Dance are the crux of the set, allowing it to set up on defensive threats such as Ferrothorn and potential phazers such as Skarmory and Hippowdon, potentially allowing CAP to grab multiple boosts
  • Waterfall is CAP's reliable STAB and comes with a sweeet flinch chance
  • The loss of Play Rough means that Iron Head is also an option in order to hit some of the things that Waterfall doesn't, namely Kyurem-B, M-Altaria and the Latis
  • The main variation is the addition of Horn Leech over Play Rough, which grants CAP a bit more staying power and allows it to beat some of the Water-types that check it. In particular,+1 Horn Leech retains the ability to OHKO non-scarfed variants of Keldeo while allowing CAP to OHKO Specially Defensive Rotom-W after SR. It also does a minimum of 67% to 248/216+ Rotom-W, potentially allowing CAP to muscle through after two switch-ins with SR up and some prior damage.
  • Alternatively, Drain Punch gives CAP a 70% chance to OHKO 0/4 Magnezone after rocks, and the combination of Taunt and Drain Punch allows CAP to set up all over Ferrothorn.
  • Life Orb is the preferred item in order to make these calcs work, and recoil is offset by the recovery that Horn Leech/Drain Punch provides.
  • Taunt is preferred over Substitute when running LO to avoid being worn down too easily while keeping the opponent from recovering, setting up or phazing; however, Substitute works fine with Leftovers and one of the recovery moves and protects CAP from some revenge killers.
 

nyttyn

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Hi, TL here. I'm glad we have a lot of people submitting sets, and that's great! However, we really need discussion on what we already have submitted, and a lot of ground has been covered by the sets currently proposed, so if discussion could go ahead and shift over to talking about the sets we already have, that'd be excellent, thank you.
 

Imanalt

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I think I'll do the Cro Set
Name: CroCAP
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Calm Mind
Move 3: Rest
Move 4: Sleep Talk
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Kee Berry / Leftovers
To me, this set has issues. With the amount of bulk we have, we will struggle greatly to be able to set up calm minds with the weak recovery of restalk. I think we are much better off with our cm sets utilizing a more reliable recovery move instead of restalk.

Set: Mixed Double Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Calm Mind
Move 3: Scald
Move 4: Iron Head / Coverage Filler
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 196 Atk / 68 SpA / 36 SpD / 208 Spe
Nature: Naive
This set is just not really usable. This isn't like double dance sets that can choose which boosting move to use because those sets rely on having very good stab combinations and hitting from the same side, usually choosing whether to boost speed or attack. This set basically forces you to be monoattacking, which won't be able to kill much with only one or two boosts, and with life orb and no recovery you won't find opportunities to set up more.

Name: Calm Mind
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Recover
Move 4: Flash Cannon / Taunt / Refresh (filler)
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Nature: Bold
This is the calm mind set I want generally, although I think the filler move most likely is going to want to be sub, to allow us to set up on pokemon like ferrothorn much more easily, but this is a minor tweak.

Name: Offensive Stall Breaker
Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Scald/Hydro Pump
Move 3: Flash Cannon
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Leftovers/Life Orb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Nature: Timid
This set is probably good, and that scares me. I don't think it is a good set for us to be running, because it doesn't really fit in with the concept, with the potential to overshadow boosting sets.

Name: Stallbreaker DD
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 4: Play Rough
Move 4: Taunt / Substitute
Ability: Water Veil / Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
I don't like this set either. I've been arguing from the beginning that our goal should be for the two different boosting moves to allow us to beat different styles of teams. DD should be primarily threatening to offensive teams, but not defensive teams, and CM should be primarily threatening to defensive teams but not offensive teams. This set blurs that line a lot, with a dd set that has potential to be very difficult for defensive teams to beat, and threatening to offense. So pretty much I think this set is not good for the concept, because it will tend to overshadow the cm sets.

I'll probably post more later, but i just wanted to get this out there for now...
 

Albacore

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Moveset Submission
Name: Calm Mind Reflect Type
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 4: Recover
Move 4: Reflect Type
Ability: Water Veil / Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 Def / 124 Def / 132 Spe
Nature: Bold

  • You know what CM, Scald and Recover do.
  • Reflect Type is pretty interesting for this CAP. What it basically does is let you check Ferrothorn perfectly without needing Tauint or having to win Sub/Power Whip 50/50s. It also gives you a way of handling SD Bisharp without having to burn it with Scald, and even lets you beat Hammer Arm Metagross (which gets outsped atfer a drop). It also helps a lot against slower ground types like Defensive Landorus-T and Gliscor if, once again, you don't want to rely on Scald burns. Prevents YZard from checking you, Unfortunately, the CAP does lose STAB on Scald after it Reflect Types which kinda sucks, but immediate damage isn't too important on this set. Another problem is that the newly modified typing can be exploited afterwards, but on the other hand, it can also be a lifesaver if you manage to copy a typing the opponent was not at all prepared to have to deal with. But Reflect Type is mainly used as filler on this set, which pretty much already has what it needs to function in the first place. It's not supposed to be used all the time or even much of the time, just when you need it.
  • Water Veil is, as always, very useful, but Heatproof is also pretty interesting since it only gives you a 2x weakness to Fire moves if you reflect type a Ferrothron, and gives you a neutrality if you reflect type a Bisharp or a Metagross.
  • The given EVs outspeed Jolly Bisharp while maintaining as much physical bulk as possible. I guess you can also creep Mamosine but you sacrifice a lot more bulk in the process.

Going to comment on a few sets here :

Dragon Dance (both) : Pretty much the set we want for DD, really not sure about Knock Off and Bolt Strike though since being able to beat Slowbro sounds slightly anti-concept. If I had to choose, I much prefer Knock Off to Wild Charge.
CroCAP : Agree with imanalt here, the CAP just isn't bulky enough to pull off RestTalk. The only Pokemon which do this in OU are Suicune and Mega Slowbro and both are insanely bulky, and our CAP really isn't.
Calm Mind/Sub CM/basically all the CM sets : No qualms here, these sets basically does exactly what we want it to do in terms of CM sweeping. The 4th move is kind of a toss-up, Taunt benefits the set the most but potentially has pretty nasty collateral damage. Sub seesm fairly innocent but not particularly helpful either. Flash Cannon seems okay but I'm not 100% sure if we want CM to beat Altaria, though countering Clefable is probably a good thing.
Offensive Stall Breaker : This set looks viable but I'm not sure if it's viable enough to really overshadow CM and therefore defeat the concept. The ability to boosts stats is a big advantage no matter which way you look at it, so I don't think we should be too afraid of this set taking over.
Anti-Conk Dragon Dance : I have no problems with Zen Headbutt besides it not hitting enough stuff compared to Fairy/Flying coverage. Blaze Kick I'm not too on board with since I don't think DD should beat Ferrothorn gicne that CM is suppsoed to set up on it.
Mixed DD : I both like and fear the idea of weakening chekc to the DD set with Scald. Being able to weaken Ferrothorn, Skarmory, even Slowbro with Scald can be pretty problematic. Then again, the lack of recovery on such a set prevents the Pokemon from swicthing in too many times par battle and outlasting a lot of its checks. Btw, I'd still run a Jolly/Adamant nature on that set, Scald isn't there for damage
Counter-shocking Dragon Dance : Bounce is kinda bad since it gives a completely free turn to the opponent, I like Drill Peck though. I dislike Seed Bomb, it just hits way too many things and heavily risks DD overshadowing CM, since we're removing Cm's major perk over DD aka being able to beat bulky Waters.
Stallbreaker DD : I know this is kinda my set but I'd like to comment that I intentionally made it somewhat anti-concept to promote discussion on Taunt and how it can enable the DD set to screw over the C&C list.
 
Moveset Submission

Name: Calm Mind + 3 Attacks
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald / Hydro Pump / Surf
Move 3: Flash Cannon
Move 4: Ice Beam / Shadow Ball
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 228 HP / 72 Def / 176 SpA / 132 Spe
Nature: Modest

  • This set trades useful utility moves for the ability to check more Pokemon.
  • Calm Mind simultaneously increases both special bulk and wallbreaking capability.
  • Scald provides a reliable Water STAB move as well as a useful 30% chance to burn, crippling many switch-ins. Hydro Pump provides more raw power at the cost of accuracy and secondary effect, while Surf is an intermediate option.
  • Flash Cannon is the only useful special Steel STAB move, hitting Fairy-types like Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, and Clefable hard.
  • Ice Beam hits the likes of Gliscor and Garchomp harder than a Water STAB move can, while Shadow Ball can deal respectable damage to Psychic-types like Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade, and Mega Slowbro.
  • The given SpA EVs guarantee a 2HKO with Shadow Ball after a Calm Mind boost against recommended Mew sets (Impish with 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 Spe EVs) and anything less bulky. This set can also 2HKO Unaware Clefable with Flash Cannon. Physical bulk is sufficient to withstand a Hammer Arm from Mega Metagross and Stealth Rock damage, while the Speed EVs outrun Mega Metagross after the Speed drop from Hammer Arm, allowing Shadow Ball to safely 2HKO.
 
Moveset Submission
Name: Boosting Shuffler
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3 Recover / Flash Cannon
Move 4: Dragon Tail
Ability: Water Veil / Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/ 168 Def / 84 SpA
Nature: Bold
  • A bulky mono-attacking set that allows the spreading of burns and uses Dragon Tail to disrupt the CAP's usual counters, granting more opportunities for boosts. Dragon Tail on a predicted switch or, if obtained enough boosts, tank the hit.
  • 168 Defense and Bold Nature let's it avoid a OHKO on Specs Keledo's Secret Sword, guaranteeing CAP can shuffle it and the various other physical checks to CAP out.
  • Leftovers is absolutely needed, to allow CAP to last longer for shuffling more burns
  • If Recover is allowed, use that (I'm iffy on Recover, personally), if it's not then Flash Cannon for a secondary STAB.

    About the first Dragon Dance move-set. I'm kind of iffy on Electric coverage in general. I think that, in general, countering water types isn't a grand idea.

    I would have suggsted the Mixed DD if it hadn't already. Scald is a great move overall, and even using it for surprise value is plenty viable.
 
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Qwilphish

when everything you touch turns to gold
Moveset Submission
Name: Boosting Shuffler
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3 Recover / Flash Cannon
Move 4: Dragon Tail
Ability: Water Veil / Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/ 168 Def / 84 SpA
Nature: Bold
This set seems iffy because Dragon Tail doesn't really beat anything that we couldn't have done anyways. Against Defensive teams Scald is the best move against any common Pokemon that I can think of. The justification takes out usual counters is vague and DT doesn't address any issues with setting up, all it does is delay that Pokemon from coming in. I can imagine something like Magnezone switching in and then forcing it out as the most useful application but I can see more issues with DT considering DD can boost the power of DT + Recover and Sub (required iirc) can create a powerful phazer that destroys Defensive teams.

Moveset Submission

Name: Calm Mind + 3 Attacks
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald / Hydro Pump / Surf
Move 3: Flash Cannon
Move 4: Ice Beam / Shadow Ball
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 228 HP / 72 Def / 176 SpA / 132 Spe
Nature: Modest
Hydro Pump is unnecessary for our concept as it doesn't get any different KOs and only serves to promote straight up offensive sets. Coverage on CM outside of our two STABs are a gray area but I like your justification for Shadow Ball so I think that can be okay and can be a niche lure that is reliant on CM to function properly. Personally, I doubt the viability of this set as there are few Pokemon who use CM in OU without recovery or Sub and considering our less than average Speed, I don't think this set will be popular / good compared to the other sets. Nonetheless the moves on it are interesting and offer options to prevent us from being too predictable in our coverage.

Moveset Submission
Name: Calm Mind Reflect Type
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 4: Recover
Move 4: Reflect Type
Ability: Water Veil / Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 Def / 124 Def / 132 Spe
Nature: Bold
Obviously Reflect Type is the point of discussion here. We have seen Starmie use this move to some success and our point of using it is similar to there (Get free turns to do what we want to do). I like this option but I can see the fear of making the CM set too unpredictable outside of our potential to be DD and be screwed over that way. I say this set is good because it promotes the CM set's goal while offering a unique niche for the set to follow.
 
Commenting on Taunt in the context of the more controversial sets:

Stallbreaker DD/Offensive Stallbreaker: As Albacore pointed out, Taunt really allows DD to screw with the C&C list a bit too much. I'd go a step further and say it even lets non-boosting sets (such as Offensive Stallbreaker) surpass Calm Mind in dealing with defensive teams. At first Taunt seems like a good move because of what it can do for Calm Mind, but in reality it lets any Taunt set do all of the same things. A Pokemon that can't be burnt, can't be poisoned, resists Stealth Rocks, has reliable recovery (which it seems Cap is going to get at this point) AND that learns Taunt can practically 6-0 Defensive teams. I originally thought DD sets wouldn't forgo coverage to run Taunt, but it actually lets DD beat both defensive pokes (Skarm, Ferro, Hippowdon, and a bunch of other things it's supposed to lose to) AND retain a lot of DD's original selling points, effectively leaving Calm Mind outclassed. While Taunt is a perfectly balanced move on some of the other sets listed, it has to be considered in the context of its "best set", which is most likely a Taunt-DD set that will render Taunt-Calm Mind sets pointless.
 
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  • Taunt is great to disable non-Power Whip Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Suicune, Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Empoleon and to some extent Amoonguss and Quagsire, all usual checks to the DD set.
  • Alternatively, Substitute can be used to block Leech Seeds from Ferrothorn and give the CAP an easier time against Slowbro while working better against offensive teams than Taunt, but is generally inferior to Taunt since it doesn't help against Suicune , Skarmory or Mandibuzz.
Okay, let's analyze this a bit.

First of all, Mandibuzz. It should have been noted in the counters discussion that it's hard for Mandibuzz not to counter DD just because of this:

+1 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def CAP: 225-265 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This actually makes Taunt a waste of time against Mandibuzz. nyttyn's post has a DD set with Wild Charge, which deals with Mandibuzz significantly better, 2HKOing it.

Assuming we don't want to take the nuclear option of banning Substitute, the set description implies that Taunt's main targets are Skarmory and Suicune. Maybe we don't want DD shutting these down, but keep in mind, +1 Life Orb Wild Charge 2HKOes both of them and OHKOes Politoed and Gyarados. So maybe if we're so worried about Taunt, we should also be taking a better look at Wild Charge. Taunt is probably "better" in that it also shuts down Amoonguss and CM Unaware Clefable, doesn't even give Skarmory a single turn, and doesn't need Life Orb. Maybe that's the line between Wild Charge and Taunt that could make the former okay while the latter is not. In any case, it seems to me that we need a deeper examination of these moves and their interactions with our checks and counters.

The reason I made the bulk so low in my stat spread submission was so that all this would be a relative non-issue. As I said back then, I see DD having fewer setup opportunities while being generally harder to counter, and with the lower bulk I hoped to give defensive Pokemon a chance to fight back even if DD attempted some stall-breaking strategy intended for CM. This might still be doable with the spread we have; I don't recall increased bulk actually helping all that much in that regard.
 

Empress

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Movepool leader post!

After mulling this over, I'll be moving the following sets to "Under Consideration" in the OP.

aim's and sparktrain's Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks (their sets are similar so I will merge them)
Name: Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 3: Iron Head
Move 4: Knock Off / Wild Charge
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Life Orb / Leftovers
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe OR 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
  • Because of CAP 20’s Steel/Water typing and Water Viel ability, it is able to set up Dragon Dances on a plethora of common mons, such as Clefable and Mega Sableye.
  • Dragon Dance allows it to outspeed the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier, Landorus-T.
  • Waterfall and Iron Head are your main forms of stab, allowing you to deal with bulky ground types as well as pesky fairies like Unaware Clefable who are 2HK0’d despite ignoring your boosts.
  • Knock Off is the final move as it gives you a way to punish pokemon that would otherwise give you problems early on such as Rotom-W and Ferrothorn, allowing you to get rid of their item and later on Dragon Dance when they are weakened. It also gives you a reliable way of knocking out Latias/Latios as opposed to going for the roll after Stealth Rock at +1.
  • Alternatively, Wild Charge rounds out CAP20's coverage, giving it neutral coverage on most of the metgame, barring a few exceptions such as Ferrothorn and Gastrodon. Wild Charge lets CAP20 OHKO Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo at +1, and heavily damages foes such as Mega Slowbro, Suicune, and Skarmory, allowing CAP20 to sweep past them if they have been sufficiently weakened. Keep in mind that Life Orb recoil piles up quickly alongside Wild Charge recoil.
  • Life Orb is the preferred item for its sheer power as it allows you to easily take out Choice Scarf Landorus-T after a DD, despite intimidate neutralizing your attack, 100% of the time. Leftovers is also an option for survivability and taking resisted hits better such as Latios’ Draco Meteor, Talonflame’s Brave Bird etc.
  • The EV spread allows you to outspeed Choice Scarf Landorus-T after a Dragon Dance as well as have a bit of bulk. An alternative spread of 252 Atk/Spe is fine as well.
I would like to see some more discussion on what the 3rd attack should be before I move this to Approved.
Ununhexium's and Alfalfa's Calm Mind Stallbreaker (again, similar enough to be merged)
Name: Calm Mind
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Scald
Move 3: Recover
Move 4: Flash Cannon / Taunt / Refresh
Ability: Heatproof
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA OR 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpD
Nature: Bold
  • Calm Mind is required
  • Scald is primary STAB move
  • Recover heals off damage taken. This is a controversial topic, so I'll try to justify it in that it doesn't cure status nor fully restore HP. I'll elaborate more when I have access to a computer.
  • Last move is filler. Flash Cannon and Taunt allow CAP to beat stuff such as Clefable and Altaria (and other things but I still have no computer) and Refresh allows it to heal off status, primarily paralysis and burn.
Alfalfa's EV spread ensures Timid Heatran does not 2HKO with Earth Power when the CAP is at +1s
Barring any major objections, I'll probably move this to "Approved" soon; this seems to be exactly what we were looking for in our standard CM set. Also read below as to why Taunt is currently pending.
The following sets should have some more discussion before I decide what to do with them:

ginganinja's SubCM:
After speaking with the guys on IRC, some of us are a tad iffy about the possibility of Substitute on this mon. CAP 20 already breaks stall well with its abilities and typing, so the addition of Substitute would jack it up even more. I personally don't think Substitute would break this mon, but I'd like to see some of your opinions as to why it should or should not be allowed.

aim's Offensive Stallbreaker: Hmmm... didn't see this coming. I really dislike it because, as imanalt pointed out, it has high potential to forego the concept and overshadow our boosting moves. This leads me to the next one...

Albacore's Stallbreaker DD: This one, just like aim's set, proves how dangerous Taunt would be in shutting down our checks and counters. The main point here should be Taunt: is it necessary for the Pokemon to function or would it be a distraction for the concept. Right now I'm leaning towards saying that Taunt is an anti-concept move, but I need to see some more justification.

I'll get to the rest of these soon; just leaving this here as a starting point. Keep the discussions going.
 

Bughouse

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I fail to see the point of this newfound fear of Taunt, which many have been assuming would be necessary for weeks.

The entire point of the concept has been different types of boosting that accomplish different goals. In this case, DD wallbreaks while CM stallbreaks. If Taunt is necessary for CM to effectively stallbreak, then it shouldn't even be a question if it should be allowed or not.

As to DD Taunt being a set, I'm not overly concerned. Mega Gyarados has much more threatening dual stab, higher attack power, and Mold Breaker to back up its Taunt against things like Magic Bounce Mega Sableye and even it only rarely uses DD Taunt. I highly doubt DD Taunt will be a particularly threatening set on CAP 20 as it lacks spammable 2 move coverage and Taunt fails to even beat some of DD's checks like Ferrothorn. In most cases DD Sub would be equivalent, except when it comes to phazing. Taunt in fact changes almost none of these matchups when one considers that it needs to run 2 move coverage and can't beat much of anything as Water/Steel dual stab leaves way too much uncovered, so you run Water/non-STAB option that still leaves many mons open. You can't really cover Slowbro/Rotom-W and Ferrothorn with the same single move anyway. You're almost always better off going with DD 3 attacks (provided it gets usable coverage).

I'm also not concerned by Taunt Recover 2 attacks being a set without boosting. Nothing ever said the CAP had to be only viable with boosting sets. Only that it should have multiple boosting sets.




As a final unrelated point, I think Knock Off is a very important move for us to discuss, one I think should probably in fact not be allowed.
 
By user aim

Moveset Submission

Name: Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 3: Iron Head
Move 4: Knock Off
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Life Orb/Leftovers
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe 20 HP/252 ATK/28 DEF/208 Speed
This seems like a good starting point for Dragon Dance sets. Basic, but effective. The EV distribution could use some work though. As an example, 20 HP investment is all you need to accomplish a significant Leftovers number (Namely 352), which lets you invest 28 EVs into one of your defensive stats, thus increasing your bulk. Likewise for Life Orb, you only need 16 HP EVs to avoid jumping a Life Orb bracket, giving you a whole 32 EVs to defensive stats.

By user sparktrain


Moveset Submission

Name: Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Waterfall
Move 3: Iron Head
Move 4: Wild Charge
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Life Orb/Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe 16 HP/252 ATK/16 DEF/220 Speed
Nature: Jolly
  • Dragon Dance boosts CAP20's Attack and Speed, allowing it to punch through weakened walls and attempt a sweep late-game. With a Jolly nature and maximum investment in Speed, CAP20 outpaces Choice Scarf users such as Landorus-T and Kyurem-B after a boost.
  • Waterfall is a reliable STAB move, easily OHKOing foes such as Talonflame and Excadrill, and can OHKO Tyranitar and Heatran after a boost. Waterfall can also OHKO opposing Choice Scarf Landorus-T at +0, which prevents it from safely checking CAP20, and still does around 60-70% to physically defensive Landorus-T.
  • Iron Head is another reliable STAB move, hitting foes such as Mega Altaria, Clefable, and Kyurem-B super effectively. It also hits foes such as Latios neutrally, allowing CAP20 to OHKO it at +1 after Stealth Rock damage.
  • Wild Charge rounds out CAP20's coverage, giving it neutral coverage on most of the metgame, barring a few exceptions such as Ferrothorn and Gastrodon. Wild Charge lets CAP20 OHKO Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo at +1, and heavily damages foes such as Mega Slowbro, Suicune, and Skarmory, allowing CAP20 to sweep past them if they have been sufficiently weakened. Keep in mind that Life Orb recoil piles up quickly alongside Wild Charge recoil.
I would slash Leftovers onto the set if you're going to use Wild Charge. That's a pretty heavy LP investment on something you need to survive to sweep. Also, you only need to invest 220 Speed EVs if you want to outspeed fully invested Choice Scarf Kyurem-B. The extra 32 EV can actually go a great distance on this, so I don't recommend wasting them.

Moveset Submission
Set: Counter-shocking Dragon Dance
Move 1: Dragon Dance
Move 2: Iron Head / Waterfall
Move 3: Bounce/Zen Headbutt
Move 4: Seed Bomb
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 92 Def / 164 Spe
Nature: Adamant

  • Specialized set that can survive Choice Scarf Keldeo Secret Sword after Stealth Rock and KO at +1 with Seed Bomb - all other Keldeo variants are KO'd at +1 without retaliation. (OO Note: If you use Expert Belt instead of Life Orb, you OHKO without taking recoil, but the set loses too much general effectiveness)
  • Iron Head provides STAB and allows CAP to break through Clefable, Waterfall is more effective against opposing Steel types and can 2HKO Mega Manectric from +0.
  • Bounce OHKO's Conkeldurr at +1, forcing it to switch out or preventing it from switching in. It also has a very small chance of OHKO'ing Keldeo after SR, and ~50% after 1 Layer of Spikes)
  • EVs allow CAP to survive Secret Sword from Scarf Keldeo after SR, Speed EVs allow it to outspeed Mega Manectric at +1 (406 Spe at +1, 271 Spe at +0)
  • Without maximum speed investment, the power boost from Adamant is preferred over the damage you would lose from swapping Spe and Attack with Jolly.
  • If using Iron Head, choose partner Pokemon that can eliminate opposing Steel types that could otherwise dampen a sweep.
Neat Set! Only input I have is that Bounce is a bit awkward to try to use against Conk, since his priority allows it to it before the Bounce, and then simply switch off. People already pack Talonflame counters, so giving them a cue to switch in to get damage without having to predict is a bit awkward. Headbutt forces the decision forces the opponent to predict to gain momentum, which is worth the loss of Celebi coverage. I'd still slash the bounce though, since it is better against Thorn, and given the Life Orb on this set, that's something you need to hit.

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Stall Breaker
Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Scald/Hydro Pump
Move 3: Flash Cannon/Freeze Dry
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Water Veil
Item: Leftovers/Life Orb
IVS: 0 ATK
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spd 124 HP/32 DEF/252 SPA/12 SPD/88 Speed
Nature: Timid
  • Due to CAP 20's typing it can act as an excellent stall breaker. Immunity to Poison and Burn allows it to beat a plethora of stall mons such as Chansey and Mega Sableye.
  • Taunt is needed on the set to stop Chansey and Clefable from recovering as well as Skarmory from phazing you out.
  • Scald is the preferred choice as it allows you to burn Chansey and beat it quicker. This also allows you to deal with Mega Sableye who can only annoy you with Knock Off as it cannot burn you. Scald also helps burn Quagsire. Hydro Pump is another option for more damage and solid 2HK0's without burns on pokemon like Mega Sableye.
  • Flash Cannon allows you to 2HK0 Unaware Clefable as well as deal with Mega Sableye with SpDef drops.
  • Recover is the final move as it allows you to "stall out stall" as it has no way of really doing damage to you outside of moves like Seismic Toss, Knock Off, Moonblast etc.
  • Leftovers or Life Orb depending on how much damage you want to do. Life Orb is the preferred option for outright power. Couples well with Recover.
  • The EVs are pretty straight forward. Max sp atk and speed to still outspeed threats such as Landorus-t and stall breaker Mew. The rest is dump in special attack for damage output.
  • This set was made to be an offensive stall breaker but functions well vs Offense and Balance as well.
This is an interesting set. A few things though. Firstly, if you're going to be fighting Foul-Players, you need to make sure you don't have Attack IVs. Secondly, You don't need nearly that much speed. The fastest thing you're trying to kill is Stallbreaker Mew, and that only takes 275 Speed. I ended up giving it 277 speed to it could wreck the standard mixed Kyurem-B set. Speaking of, the Defensive stats are build so that Fusion Bolt can't OHKO CAP even if Rocks are up. The remaining EVs are put into Special Defense. You're bulky enough to take hits on that end, so it's all good.

I slashed Freeze Dry onto this set, because Amoongus and non-Mega Slowbro are still a significant threat to this set. They can both PP stall until you get the burn, and Regenerator keeps them in the game. That and it hits Quagsire for 4x damage. That's not insignificant either. You do lose the Clefable answer, but you aren't trying to set up with this set, and you hit pretty hard with Life Orb, so that shouldn't be too problematic. Otherwise, quite impressed.
 
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