CAP 24 Metagame Build Discussion

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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Approved by jas61292

CAP 24 Metagame Build Discussiom

After the Adjustment in Direction 2, it was decided that before each CAP we would decide which tier to build the next CAP Project for inbetween CAPs.

A great number of changes overtook OU since our last discussion, with USUM releasing new Ultra Beasts and banning Arena Trap, as well as the proliferation of new tutors. The metagame is more stable now with all megas released and the new game already in full swing.

We’ve created CAP projects for CAP Meta the last two projects and the discussions flowed well. Participation and discussions were good, and it’s fairly consistent going in getting a battle.

We should also discuss the potential for making CAP projects for other formats, such as VGC or 6v6 Doubles. There will be another thread specifically on how CAP determines its own format (which mons are allowed or not), but in general any tier outside CAP requires a separate playtest ladder when the time comes. This minor impediment should not preclude us from at least discussing these and their potential effects on the project, such as participation, discussion quality and depth, etc.

I also want to emphasize the purpose of this thread is to allow us an opportunity to discuss things that don’t occur in the ordinary course of threads. Before we did CAP 21, we didn’t really have a mechanism in place to account for Mega Evolution mid-stage, so we decided that CAP would have a Mega Evolution from the outet. A similar purpose can be served in these meta build threads, where we essentially allow an expansion of our usual thinking to consider what our process could look like if we had another CAP where our outside-the-box goal was clear at the outset.

With the floor being opened for discussion, please present your arguments for which format we should use when building CAP 24.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
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I see no reason why we keep comparing OU and CAP as if they are some closey knit metagames that are extremely similar, when both metagames have some vastly different threat lists and the amount of pokemon viable in OU does not neccesarily translate into CAP. Tyranitar and Heatran are not nearly as viable in CAP as in OU, Tomohawk shuts down most setups sweepers and makes Z-Celebrate Victini a massive joke, and where we have Volkraken as Fire-type scarf user OU has Blacephalon. Its like comparing apples and oranges. Sure, they both are fruits, but when you look at with more than a base view, you can see that they are very different plants.

Kerfluffle and Pajantom have proven that building for CAP is a working strategy because it allows us to focus on a metagame where it will be implemented and there are threats that it will face that can't be accounted for in OU. And as shown above, they are kinda really different besides the Pokemon that they share in them. Building for CAP works, and I see no reason to fix what isn't broken (besides Roost on Tomohawk that can go die in a barn fire).
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
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I am firmly in the camp that we should build for the CAP metagame. I suppose I could be persuaded otherwise, but things have been really successful. The CAP metagame has been growing, the past two projects have been a success, and interest in the project is also growing. I also think there are lots of different things to explore in the current metagame.
 
I agree, building for the CAP Metagame seems to be the most obvious and logical choice for every future CAPmon. How do you except a Naviathan to work as a set-up sweeper if you ignore the existence of Haze Tomohawk or Unaware Arghonaut ? Only to fulfill this role effectively during just a week of playtest ?

Furthermore, if I remember correctly, the main reason why webuilt solely for the OU Metagame before Kerfluffle was because the CAP community wasn't very wide and thus we have decided to stay focus on the OU metagame in order to make the CAP building more accessible for other people. However, there was a very good number of participant in both Kerfluffle and Pajantom's creation and both projects have been successful so far, which just proves that we really need to take every aspect of the CAP metagame in account.
 

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
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I still think making a CAP for a metagame it'll only be used in temporarily will not be as productive as making a CAP for the actual CAP metagame. Therefore I have to support building for CAP yet again.

We've evaluated these pros and cons enough for me not to have to reiterate them again in this post.
 
I think we should build for CAP metagame due right now CAP is different of OU beacuse we have certain things that OU don't have for example Tailwind and Trick room are more usefull in CAP than OU here is a list with some dfference:
-Persistent affects in the turns and how TR and Tailwind are more usefull
-Tyranitar is bad in cap
-Set-UP sweeper are kinda bad in CAP
-Haze is a huge thing in considerate in order to build a team which OU don't have
-OU is more offensive than CAP
But one of the biggest problem that build for CAP is that we aren't going to show or facilitate the process on build a CAP team or learn about CAP beacuse we are going to add that OU don't have and that can be a Lose in terms on popularity.

so I think we should make for CAP in order to have a healty metagame beacuse the problem of popularity can be fixed with other things, Like guides, videos, articles, etc
 

Deck Knight

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I'll start out by imploring the PRC that this is not strictly a CAP vs. OU thread. We get wrapped up in a trap sometimes because of all that contention, when we don't really have to.

Here's a few suggestions that are outside the box:

CAP Doubles
It's 6vs6. It's CAP.
And it explores how all our CAPs, some of whom actually have flavor abilities that are competitive in doubles would do in that meta. Would Fidgit be the top threat with its incredible TR and Tailwind duration? How usefull is Tomohawk when getting ganged-up on?

We would still be balancing our creation against existing CAPs and existing strategies, but with a different kind of threatlist.

CAP Ubers:
"CAP is broken." But is it really?
How do CAPs stack up in a meta with P-don?

The beauty of this is that just because we are making a CAP that functions in Ubers does not mean we are making a broken CAP. Other CAP Pokemon could be its explicit checks, or going even further, we have a framework for a Mega-CAP project already, if we really think the stat requirements would be too much.

These are not just suggestions for their iwn sake, I want us to actively consider metagames outside our comfort zone in these threads so we can open up the floor to new concepts, or even more concrere old ones. What Pokemon for example would be a perfect Doubles mate with M-Manectric, for example.

So to reiterate, this is not exclusively another perpetual OU vs. CAP thread. This is a thread to explore additional options that fit our CAPs and can also challenge us and open up new possibilities.
 

jas61292

used substitute
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I'm just gonna throw in with everyone else and say the CAP metagame is the best for us to build for. I personally would be against anything other than CAP or OU because I simply do not think there is a playerbase for them that will participate. We've seen other places try projects like this, and they have never really worked out. Furthermore, its not just the playerbase itself I'm worried about. The leadership that we rely on for CAP projects are not going to be nearly as familiar with other formats, and that will make it a lot harder to have good discussions. We know CAP can work because the people involved in it are those who are the most dedicated to the project, and while it is not OU, it is close enough to be somewhat accessible to new players.

Really though, I think the biggest thing to me is that with the last two projects, we have shown that building for the CAP meta works. It is where our creations will end up. It is where are most dedicated players like to play. Yeah, in theory, doing other things could be fun, but there is more than enough fun to go around between all the various concepts we can do for the CAP meta.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
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I do not think the CAP metagame player base is large enough to branch out to things like CAP Doubles or CAP Ubers. I think we should stay with what we are currently building around, which is the vanilla CAP metagame.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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Consistency is important. It's no secret that I wish the project as a whole was focused around building for OU, especially considering the extremely small size of the dedicated CAP metagame competitive player base, I feel that it would be more harmful to build each CAP for a different metagame--that just breeds confusion and prolongs the learning curve. Since we chose to build for the CAP metagame, we should stick to our guns and continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
 
I agree that for the time being, building for vanilla CAP is probably the best option, but I think making forum projects in the CAP Metagame forum could help build a community for those metas and therefore help us have more of a community for building CAPs for those metas. Otherwise I think continuing in the direction we're going is still the best option although building a Chansey/Gligar style prevo for CAP and CAP LC hasn't been deemed as off of the table
 
I don't have much to add on the matter, but I have to agree that we should build for the CAP metagame for a while. If we go back to OU, potential newcomers would mostly become confused by our inconsistency. Even though I had that seemingly wonderful idea of building for Doubles and Ubers, it just doesn't sound practical at this point due to the small playerbase.
 

jas61292

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Hey everyone. So, I have been chosen to wrap up this thread, and really, at this point, it seems pretty obvious what the conclusion should be.

We will build CAP 24 for the CAP metagame. We will not be pursuing projects in any alternative metagames at this time.
 

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