CaP 25 GFW - Prevo Discussion - Typings and Abilities

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DHR-107

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Hey all!

It's that time again! Let's get ready to dive into our Prevos! As I have done previously with double prevos, we try to do a few stages at once! This is going to be complicated because this time we are going to be making 6 pokemon all at the same time! I know some of our amazing artists have already been hard at work producing designs and getting feedback for these Pokemon.

There are a number of things I wish to discuss before going into any specific thread (and can probably be decided in polls off of this post). Starter Pokemon have a number of "fixed" Aspects. We all know this, and they are not difficult to research. I have had discussions with a few users on Discord about a number of these things. We have two "big" issues currently that need to be discussed.

The first, and main one, is Typings.

Starter Pokemon ALL follow the "Grass > Water > Fire > Grass" circle in both directions. This includes Pokemon like Bulbasaur and Rowlet who have secondary typings. This becomes and issue with our starters because our Water-type starter final stage is also part Bug-type. This "breaks" the type triangle in the offensive direction (both Grass and Fire become neutral vs our Water starter, while it would also be able to hit both types SE early on depending on movepool). With this in mind, I wish to discuss how we can resolve this dilemma easily. The easiest way is for me to simply mandate that the first formes must all be pure Grass/Fire/Water Pokemon. If everyone is behind that, we can move onto the Second formes. These are a fair bit easier. We know from other games that these can do what they like. I'd like suggestions on type combinations people are happy with to take forward into a vote (which a huge emphasis on their final formes typings).

The second one (and lesser issue) is Abilities.

All starter Pokemon have Overgrow/Blaze/Torrent as their primary abilities. This is no different for our CaPs. Hidden Abilities are also uniform across the board with the single exception of the Tepig Line. Tepig and Pignite both have Thick Fat, while Emboar has Reckless. I am open for discussion on this if people would like to try and work out feasible abilities for the First Two stages, which turn into a logical ability in their Final Form. Personally, I would prefer we stay uniform and keep all the HA's the same for all stages.

These prevos will work like all others before, just we might be able to massively condense some steps and give more time to others. I'd like these wrapped up relatively quickly and get them on the sim. For later stages, I will be putting a huge emphasis on well researched and explained entries for Movepools in particular, but stats will also be under scrutiny. While making 6 Pokemon at once may seen daunting, with them being starters we have a lot of aspects worked out for us ahead of time. Let's get going!
 

Dogfish44

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Alright, the easy one first;

Abilities
There is absolutely no reason to meddle with these - Galvanise, Poison Heal and Technician all make no implication that they must remain constant. I'm going to argue for abilties staying the same.

Typings
These are trickier! Mainly I think we should take some cues from the movepool, since those are reasonably well defined.

Caribaby
I'd like to argue that 25g's prevo goes right from the outset as a Grass/Electric type. I argue this because one of the core moves that 25g learns is ThunderShock. Given the nature of G7 Movepools for Starters, and the fact that I'm obsessive, we can actually plot out 25g's prevo movepools with zero problems - quite literally it should be an automatic process.

Given that 25g's Prevo will have ThunderShock, a move which is unique to Electric Types and Klinklang, who's excessive electric theming includes being a literal machine, and access to both Plus and Minus, I think it makes sense to keep this typing. I'd also note that Grass/Elec does not break the triangle due to Electric smashing Water.

Smallstrom
This is a fun one! Snaelstrom was awkward on the Egg Groups, which does have a minor impact here - technically the requirements to get Struggle Bug are either to be a Bug-Type (Armaldo), to be a part of the Bug Egg Group (Flygon, Drapion, Gliscor), or both (like every other bug). So it's a tiny bit awkward to have 25w's prevo with neither but still get the move - but the issues of breaking triangle are more notable. I wouldn't object to Water/Bug being slated to resolve that flavour issue, but given the looming triangle I'm inclined to say Water alone is sufficient.

Smokiddo
Of the three starters, Smokomodo is the only one which doesn't adhere to the standard G7 starter rules for movepool design - stuff like no repeated L0 moves, and a notably large egg movepool. On the plus side, in spite of haivng more early-game moves which could potentially throw up problems (think ThunderShock on Caribolt) it's the only movepool which doesn't have any awkwardly distributed (by type) moves early on, and going Fire is not going to cause major concerns - moves like Mud Shot are hardly type-exclusive.

---

tl;dr: Caribolt's first stage should maintain it's Electric typing, I'm happy with pure Water and pure Fire, and don't want to meddle with abilities.
 
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Frostbiyt

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The first, and main one, is Typings.

Starter Pokemon ALL follow the "Grass > Water > Fire > Grass" circle in both directions. This includes Pokemon like Bulbasaur and Rowlet who have secondary typings. This becomes and issue with our starters because our Water-type starter final stage is also part Bug-type. This "breaks" the type triangle in the offensive direction (both Grass and Fire become neutral vs our Water starter, while it would also be able to hit both types SE early on depending on movepool). With this in mind, I wish to discuss how we can resolve this dilemma easily. The easiest way is for me to simply mandate that the first formes must all be pure Grass/Fire/Water Pokemon. If everyone is behind that, we can move onto the Second formes. These are a fair bit easier. We know from other games that these can do what they like. I'd like suggestions on type combinations people are happy with to take forward into a vote (which a huge emphasis on their final formes typings).
I agree that the first stage of all three should be Grass(or Grass/Electric)/Fire/Water, though i think I should point out a convention we'd be breaking by doing this. So far, there has not been a single Pokemon that gains the Bug typing upon evolution and only one Pokemon loses the Bug typing upon evolution, which is Skorupi. So we either have to go against the traditional rock-paper-scissors of the starter trio or we have to break the precedent of no Pokemon gaining the bug typing upon evolution. Since we have to do one or the other and this is a starter project, I think preserving the RPS interaction is most important.

For Smokomodo's first evolution, Fire/Ground shouldn't be used for the same reason as Water/Bug as it messes with the type effectiveness of Grass and Water. Caribolt's first stage I think could be Grass/Electric as it does not affect type effectiveness and traditionally Grass is the only starter type that has had a dual type first stage. So I'd be OK with either Grass or Grass/Electric.

And of course, anyone who remember's Jumbao's prevo discussion will know that I have no problem with more creative type combos, so I'll throw out all of the possible combos that don't mess with the starter type effectiveness for anyone who wants to make their case:
Grass: Normal, Fighting, Flying, Poison, Ghost, Electric, Psychic, Dark, Fairy
Fire: Normal, Fighting, Ghost, Electric, Psychic, Ice, Dark, Fairy
Water: Normal, Fighting, Ghost, Electric, Psychic, Dark, Fairy

The second one (and lesser issue) is Abilities.

All starter Pokemon have Overgrow/Blaze/Torrent as their primary abilities. This is no different for our CaPs. Hidden Abilities are also uniform across the board with the single exception of the Tepig Line. Tepig and Pignite both have Thick Fat, while Emboar has Reckless. I am open for discussion on this if people would like to try and work out feasible abilities for the First Two stages, which turn into a logical ability in their Final Form. Personally, I would prefer we stay uniform and keep all the HA's the same for all stages.
On Discord, Offler pointed out that Galvanize doesn't make much sense for mono Grass and I checked Bulbapedia and confirmed that no Pokemon has an -ate/-ize ability for a non-STAB type, so I think if we drop the Electric typing the we also need to drop Galvanize. The other two I think are fine keeping their abilities for the whole line.
 
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I'll begin with abilities, as dogfish said, it's easier;

Snaelstrom prevos: Despite how convenient and nice poison heal is, I think giving it sticky hold or even gooey would be a pretty good idea.
My base for this is on the fact that they're snails, and are more slimy or gooey, and I imagine the first stage being a slug, the second being more snail like with a small shell, then evolving into snaelstrom, becoming huge, which allows it to eat toxapex and digest the poison to recover itself (Shoutout to a pokedex submission featuring this, but in the official pokedex snaelstrom has been stated to feast on toxapex), where as its prevos are smaller and therefore cannot eat toxapex, nor digest the poison as it's not in their diet. Sticky hold or gooey, both are based on a more slug/snail slime, and while competitively I'd rather have gooey, on a more realistic level I'd say sticky hold, but both work in my opinion.

Caribolt prevos: I'd say stick with galvanize, fits very well as an electrical deer, I really don't have any other comment on this matter.

Smokomodo prevos: I'd also say stick with technician, being crafty creatures, I'd imagine this fitting all the way from the first stage to fully evolved, as a way to power up weaker moves to target different prey that may live near where they keep their nests.

Then moving onto typing:
Snaelstrom 1st stage: Pure water seems fitting, following the more standard single type, and I don't think it should be bug type yet as I imagine a more slug like appearance.
Snaelstrom 2nd stage: Water/Bug seems fitting for this, allowing for more bug flavour in its movepool compared to the 1st stage, which should be more water based (of course still with bug moves in it, but not as many as 2nd stage or snaelstrom has). I don't hate the idea of water -> water -> water/bug, but I just personally like water -> water/bug -> water/bug more, to add another starter along with marshtomp to gain a secondary type in regards to water types and 2nd stages.

Caribolt 1st stage: I'd imagine grass/electric, because of its access to galvanize and thundershock and like dogfish said, is exclusive to electric types and klingklang, but it feels to weird to call the 1st stage a pure grass type with both thundershock and galvanize.
Caribolt 2nd stage: Much like the 1st stage, I think keeping the grass/electric. I don't see any reason to change this up if the 1st and 3rd stage are already grass/electric.

Smokomodo 1st stage: Pure fire would make sense to me, as I don't see this as a full komodo dragon yet, more like a fire lizard like charmander, but more reptilian like.
Smokomodo 2nd stage: I think fire/ground for second stage would be a good idea, having evolved from a small komodo dragon would mean it has to adapt more to its environment (My vision is them living on a volcano, staying as 1st stage around the smokomodos, but when it evolves, it makes its way out to hunt for food for the group) so adding the ground type would be fitting as a reptilian that lives and adventures on volcanos.
 
Time for some insane loser who's bad with words to take the scene and talk about typing. Specifically: Possibilities if we go outside of the Ground/Bug/Electric/Nothing. I'll try to take a look at what might make the most sense (whether I personally want it to go special or not.)

Fire/Dark: The hardships of living amongst an active volcano eventually make the lizard into a crafty and clever pokemon, but at the start that craftiness is a bit lacking, instead leaning more towards downright cheating, unfairness, and unsportsmanlikeness (is that even a word?).
Fire/Poison: Ok, yes, it makes it even better against grass with a 4x resist. But is that really that bad? It keeps the overall RPS trio (Fire beats Grass beats Water beats Fire) and makes a good bit of flavor sense: A lack of control over its smoke in the early life leads to high amounts of it. Making the smoke a focus could be truly interesting.

Water/Fairy: A continuation of "this combo is ok, but a better combo exists locked behind a small edit to the trio," Water/Fairy is probably the best bet of any that doesn't mess with the trio at all. A sweet, young slug/snail, eventually getting more bug-like and a protector of Corsola and slaughterer of Toxapex. All the Toxapex-killing could've made it start to lose its innocent, fairy-like sweetness in favor of a more predatory bug style.
Water/Rock: Another one that messes with resists and stuff a little but keeps the RPS trio. Do I even have to explain this one that much? It's a snail, possibly with coral and stuff.

Grass/Normal: Let's assume we take off Galvanize for this one, at least at the beginning. Grass/Normal makes a decent amount of sense: Plenty of normal moves (typically turned electric with galvanize) to go along with a somewhat average (yet planty) deer.

My own personal thoughts are to make it a trio with everything done differently, for the sake of interestingness. Fire as the one who starts dual type, but then changes it (I love Fire/Poison: the idea of utilizing the smoke more in the design interests me.), Water as the one that starts out monotyped but then gains a type (I honestly prefer plain old water here. Water/Bug messes up the trio, and while the alternate type combinations are fine, neither of them interest me that much. Especially not Water/Rock since the design I've been making is a slug, but thats more of a personal thing.) And then Grass as the one that starts dual typed and stays dual typed. (I honestly would like to stick with Grass/Electric the entire line since it'd be arguably more interesting, but plain Grass and Grass/Normal are both fine I suppose.) tl;dr fire/poison, monowater, and grass/electric

And out of all the ones there, my personal least favorite is probably Fire/Dark. (with Water/Rock as a second for reasons more tied to my own personal design.) I feel like we should consider some of these possibilities: As far as I'm aware, starters are more of a flavor thing. So why not go ahead and be interesting instead of a plain, bland consistency.

But honestly, if we absolutely MUST go for a trio of bland consistency, then I'd honestly say Water, Grass/Electric, and then I honestly dont care whether Fire goes monofire or fire/ground.

late note because i just realized something: Out of all these combinations, only Fire/Poison and Grass/Normal actually tie in well with movesets.

this post was probably garbage but...idk i tried
 

snake_rattler

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I don't think there really needs to be a huge shakeup with the prevos. Dogfish44's post sums up what I envision for the prevos quite well. Caribolt's prevos should remain Galvanize and Grass / Electric. Smokomodo's prevos should keep Technician and start as a Fire-type, then gain Ground-typing with its first evolution. Finally, Snaelstrom's prevos should keep Poison Heal and gain Bug-typing with its first evolution as well. There's no need to go super complex with this - these are starters, simple for a new player to pick up and use.
 
I think Caribolt's basic form should be either pure Grass or Grass/Normal. My reasoning is that, pretending these three would be actual starters in an actual game, if one of the starters had an Electric typing, I feel they would have a big advantage in the early game, with lots of small Flying types around. But if it does end up Electric type, its Electric movepool should be very shallow early on so it feels like a Grass starter and not an Electric starter.
 
I'm for all the basic forms being pure, (I.E. Grass, Water, and Fire only) then giving the stage 1 evolutions the secondary typings.
 
No strong position on this, but I don't think Thunder Shock alone is enough to force an electric typing. For once it could be replaced by another move in the basic form's movepool (which does have precedent, see Chimchar and Froakie), and even then there are several cases of basic forms learning moves of their evolution's type (Fennekin gets Psybeam and Psychic, Popplio gets Moonblast, Rowlet gets Ominous Wind).
 

Dogfish44

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No strong position on this, but I don't think Thunder Shock alone is enough to force an electric typing. For once it could be replaced by another move in the basic form's movepool (which does have precedent, see Chimchar and Froakie), and even then there are several cases of basic forms learning moves of their evolution's type (Fennekin gets Psybeam and Psychic, Popplio gets Moonblast, Rowlet gets Ominous Wind).
Quickly defending my logic from earlier here;

There is no precedent in G7 Starters for any move to be changed, which formed the base of Caribolt's movepool design. And I don't like changing such an early move on a starter - the changed moves tend to start after Level 20 when they do change (Even Charizard doesn't have that sort of back-tracking with Wing Attack).

More to the point, those moves aren't exactly exclusive to their STAB typing. Ominous Wind was already a LU thanks to Natu and Masquerain lines, and Moonblast/Psybeam/Psychic have been associated with a variety of mons well before SM. ThunderShock is pretty much completely unique to Electric types (and one machine which has both Plus and Minus, which are standard Electric flavour abilities), and I think the comparison is very much apples to oranges.
 
We've already got some good discussion here with a number of options on the table, so here's my two cents:

1.) On the subject of abilities, we shouldn't have to change them just for the sake of change. There are some other reasons, however, that we may want to. Firstly, from a flavor perspective it may be hard to justify some abilities staying the same throughout an entire evolutionary line. For example, abilities such as Technician might not mesh as well if we choose a cuter, perhaps clumsier design for "Smokiddo." Committing to keeping the abilities the could potentially restrain our options in other areas. I don't think that this is as big of a factor with our starters as it could be, though, because it would be hard for Poison Heal and Galvanize not to make sense unless we choose some different typings for our prevos. Secondly, however, we may want to change our prevos' abilities if we want to make them more interesting in CAP LC. I'm not huge into LC, but I would imagine that in a metagame with Berry Juice, Poison Heal wouldn't exactly get competitive players excited. Ideally we would go with abilities that enable our prevos to be interesting through their application or at the very least through their design, so an ability change should not be off the table.

2.) For typings, I think that it would be poor design to change the second typing without removing it. From a design perspective, if we give a new player a water/fairy type to go and squash those lame route 1 bugs with then they would probably be pretty happy. But if we reveal at the last moment that their exotically-typed starter trades in for what is arguably one of the weakest and least popular types in the game, then it would probably upset people. Additionally, it could throw a wrench into team composition if you already have a bug type or needed a fairy or now have too many rock weaknesses etc. etc. One way or another, we should try to avoid switching typings on a player who doesn't know what they are in for unless it at least feels like a total upgrade. For me, this would eliminate typings like water/fairy, water/rock, fire/poison, and fire/dark. Squiddy822 brought up the idea of Grass/Normal, however, which avoids this trap because we would all agree that electric is almost never a downgrade to normal. (One could argue, however, that if Normal if a downgrade from electric then it would be a disservice/less interesting to start with electric. This opens up less prominent counter-advantages such as the benefits of normal STAB or the reduced complexity for beginner trainers with Grass/Normal vs Grass/Electric and also raises the question of why not to simply go with mono-grass.) There are some advantages to be had by changing typing. Once again, it opens up creative options. It could also potentially be used to help out in LC, depending on the typing. I'm not sure that we could get enough from these advantages to outweigh the disadvantages, but in the case of Grass/Normal I believe that it is worth looking into and so I would like to see more discussion on that point.

That is where I'm at at the moment. We have a number of options for things that we could do, but keeping it simple wouldn't be bad at all.
 
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snake_rattler

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No strong position on this, but I don't think Thunder Shock alone is enough to force an electric typing. For once it could be replaced by another move in the basic form's movepool (which does have precedent, see Chimchar and Froakie), and even then there are several cases of basic forms learning moves of their evolution's type (Fennekin gets Psybeam and Psychic, Popplio gets Moonblast, Rowlet gets Ominous Wind).
It’s not Thunder Shock that’s the dealbreaker for me. It’s Galvanize. I still hold that there’s no really good reason for the Hidden Abilities to change - we had a long discussion about them in the main process, we built the patent CAPs with them in mind, and while there is precedent for the abilities to change in the Tepig line, I’m not particularly swayed that that means “yeah let’s just change all these abilities now.”

Because I’m pretty enthusiastic about Galvanize, I want to point out that there’s no -are/-ize user that has an off-typing. There’s no Pixilate user that’s non-Fairy-type, for example, and this trend continues for all -ate/-ize abilities.

—————

Grass/Normal and Grass/Electric have the same sort of early-game advantage, as STAB in the copious Normal-type moves that Caribolt has access to makes a difference too. I don’t find Grass/Normal deseriable at all.

Just want to reiterate that this stage can be really simple. Keep the abilities that define the final evolutions and process that created them, and keep only baby Caribolt’s secondary thing for Galvanize.
 

G-Luke

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In regards to abilities, I think they we have no need to change them at all. The only change I would argue for is something akin to Goeey or Sticky Hold for baby snail, since a lot of people are on board with baby snail not being able eat Toxapex due to a size issue (though Mareanie exists, kinda dumping this argument into the gutter). If we do not decide to keep Grass/Electric for Caribolt's prevo, then of course a new ability would definitely need to be discussed, but I supporting Grass/Electric straight throughout (more on this later), I would stick to Galvanize.

In regards to typing, I think we should not ignore a trend GF has clearly established and stuck to - first stage Fire starters never, ever have a secondary typing. One might not consider this important, and claim that Water technically does the same thing, but I ask the question, how much fully evolved Fire starters are pure Fire? Only one. How many for Water? 3. This is significant because it shows that even though almost every Fire type starter has a secondary typing, they never start out with one. This is why I am 100% against typings like Fire/Poison, Fire/Dark and even Fire/Ground.

Also, for the supporters of Water/Rock, Fire/Dark and other exotic typings, how can you even explain the lack of damaging attacks that correspond with that type. Claiming that their is precedent for types to abruptly change upon final evolution is fine and all, but how can you explain how a Dark type lacks STAB? A Rock type? Its a nonsensical notion that I hope is completely quashed after this statement.
 
If any ability needs to change, it should be the water starter. Since snaels ability pertains to poison, something like immunity might be a good fit. All the other abilities are fine as is.

As for typing, I think water/bug should carry through all stages. The idea of gaining bug typing seems silly.

I agree that fire should gain ground typing during the first evolution.

I'm not sure about the grass starter. Gaining electric at the the very end and being pure grass until then seems cool.
 
In regards to the typing triangle, I'm also in favor of keeping the Snaelstrom evolution line Water/Bug throughout since it's wonky flavor-wise to have it gain Bug typing upon evolution. Even though it throws off the Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamic to some extent, it can still be maintained to a satisfactory degree if Caribolt's base form remains Grass/Electric to fry it with secondary STAB attacks.

As for Smokomodo's first stage, I agree with leaving it pure Fire-type and gaining the secondary Ground typing upon first evolution. That prevents it from being entirely hopeless against the water starter early on if the player picks it and their rival's starter has a type advantage on them.
 

Deck Knight

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Typing:
First Stages I think should be the base starter types.

Gaining a type upon second evolution is not only not weird, it's pretty normative. It's usually the case with Fire types and there is the Mudkip -> Marshtomp example among Water types. I don't think that should hold though as it is only the one example, and Bug would mess with midgame a lot as well. Grass starers tend to change type only upon final evolution, so it should stay that way (or stay the same dual type, or change types at the third evolution... Grass is all over the place).

I don't think the fact the middle type would be Bug is relevant. Skorupi -> Drapion is an example of losing Bug type on a Pokemon that is obviously still a bug. Bug is just not a strong normative type inseparable from the Pokemon it is attached to.

The chart would look like:
Fire -> Fire/Ground -> Fire/Ground
Water -> Water -> Water/Bug
Grass -> Grass -> Grass/Electric

Abilities:

Abilities are a bit stickier. The only example of a Hidden Ability changing upon evolution to Thick Fat to Reckless on the Emboar line. While I think this would be most appropriate for Caribolt, the ability I have in mind follows the same sort of idea as the Emboar line, which is the Hidden Ability is something inherent to the mon itself (pigs are kinda fat). In Caribolt's case, it would be Static for the first two evolutions. They aren't explicitly electric yet, but there is something electrical about them, and when it reaches its final evolution, it's "Static skin" is fully realized through Galvanize (Jp. Name Electric Skin.)

I think Poison Heal is fine for the water line and Technician for the Fire line.

Suggestion Summary:

Fire -> Fire/Ground -> Fire/Ground
Technician -> Technician -> Technician

Water -> Water -> Water/Bug
Poison Heal -> Poison Heal -> Poison Heal

Grass -> Grass -> Grass/Electric
Static -> Static -> Galvanize
 
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I'm a bit conflicted with the typing of our Water Starter.
Flavour-wise, I think Bug is a bad type for a Starter mon, since bug types are common mons on early routes in-game. Starting the adventure with a bug type mon neglects any potential use of those early game bugs. This is why I think it is improbable to see an official Bug-type starter ever. Nevertheless, this is more realted to new players, as more experienced players might just avoid the capture of the early bugs. Others may think something similar about Flying and bring Rowlet into the discussion, but Rowlet eventually loses it's Flying type.

Now, design-wise, I think Bug is a tricky type, since it may be weird to "get" the type by evolving. Bugs are bugs, some kind of animals that are born bugs. Now, our Bug mon is not a typical insect (the most common representation of Bug types ingame), but a snail, so there's room for design.
 
Typing

"Primary types only" establishes the rules of the Grass - Fire - Water type triangle unambiguously. Before we turn an expectation of a type on its head with a dual type, the "player" needs to know the expectation beforehand with as little clutter as possible. For Bulbasaur and Rowlet, their types aren't too exotic, and may have been added for plausibility's sake or for the Bulba trainers to get past Viridian Forest.

It's also exciting to add buildup and payoff if a mon would gain or change type upon evolution in our case through non-STAB moves sprinkled into the mix. Mudkip learns Mud-Slap, Prinplup learns Metal Claw, and so on. All this is why I think we shouldn't have a Grass/Electric base starter, even if it doesn't invalidate the type triangle. If we go Grass/Electric, Thunder Shock can no longer be used for foreshadowing. Not a follower of Grass/Normal either; simple is best.

The middle of the evolutionary line is best time to spring up the secondary types. This does a few things:

-It rewards those who guessed the second type correctly, and kept Thunder Shock, Struggle Bug and so on, in a low-risk environment
-It defies some the "player's" expectations of type matchups and tells them not to get too comfortable
-It provides exciting opportunites, as now the deer can crush the early birds, the lizard can eat Fires for lunch and so on
-It preserves slightly imbalanced RPS that's part of the final trio anyway
-It gives the "player" enough time to get used to the new type, how it interacts with the old type, and how to build their team around it

If the starters don't get their biggest reason to be used until the early 30s, the "player's" gonna have a harder time justifying them on their team instead of the other Grass, Fire or Water types that may have better stats or secondary typings at that point. (One could say the same about Magikarp, but it can evolve before the second gym, so one doesn't have to put up with Splash and Tackle for too long.)

We shouldn't get too rigid about precedence. Every generation breaks the precedent in some fashion, and small things that break precedence can still be plausible. Dual-stage intermediate Grass starters aren't precedential unless the prior stage was also a dual-type. But if Fire already did it three times, it could be equally as plausible for Grass or Water. The only non-Electric users of Thunder Shock are the Klingklang family, but it can still be plausible that a Pokemon that could eventually become an Electric-type know one of their weaker trademark moves. It would establish that the Grass starter hasn't quite mastered using electricity and provide buildup.

It's not far-fetched that 25w would get "buggier" upon evolution, and we can see that in the ways 25w codes its Bug typing. Its six arms/legs and small "antennae" may have been used in conjunction to code that 25w fits right at home with the bugs. We could incorporate both of these gradually to demonstrate to the "player" that 25w's first stage is becoming a bug, if used carefully. You could point exceptions with the crustaceans and Drapion, but the formers' lack of Bug typing may be due to the crabs' misnomer of being "shellfish," and Drapion just being Drapion. It may be tough to convey, but it's doable.

Abilities

Technician and Poison Heal are fine. If we want to show "Smokiddo" isn't that skilled or the snail baby needs to acquire its poison taste, there are plenty of routes we could go (Klutz, Reckless and Immunity are a few examples).

We could give 25g one of the more useless, typically-Electric-exclusive abilities to foreshadow Galvanize, such as Plus, Minus, or Static. This also makes Thunder Shock and Spark a little more plausible.

In short:

Grass -> Grass/Electric -> Grass/Electric
Fire -> Fire/Ground -> Fire/Ground
Water ->Water/Bug -> Water/Bug

Some ability -> Galvanize -> Galvanize
 
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Heyyy, looks like I'm making a second post. This one is half some more sane typing thoughts after time was given, and the next is interesting abilities.

First, the typing: I am INCREDIBLY against primary types only. I'd be pretty darn annoyed if we go for something that plain and boring. I'd like to remind you this is a flavor stage: You could say theres no real reason to make it particularly interesting, but theres equally no reason to go entirely plain and boring. However, my hopes in Fire/Poison have died, and Fire/Ground and Water/Bug are probably dead. So then lets take a look at Grass.

Honestly, I like both main possibilities for grass nearly equally. I think I prefer Grass/Normal, but if we get Grass/Electric, there wont be much complaining from me.

That's all I have to say about typing. Tl;dr, Fire/Water/GrassElectric or GrassNormal. So lets get to the more interesting abilities.

Sure, we could go for Technician, Poison Heal, and Galvanize. But lets just think of a few possibilities for each type if we WERE to change the ability.

Fire: First, I'd like to have the thought of Mold Breaker. Smokomodo itself (And assuming its prevos) seem to fit in with the rest of the Mold Breaker pokemon rather well. A few probably obvious fitting picks may be Moxie, Pressure, Tough Claws, or even Prankster perhaps.
Water: Well, lets see. We've got the obvious poison connecting ones like Immunity, but perhaps we could also go the path of something such as Gluttony for their Toxapex-consuming tendencies. We've also got Merciless perhaps, Hydration, or even Shell Armor. Though if I'm being honest, Immunity is our best bet.
Grass/Electric: I'm splitting this into two. Grass/Electric and Grass/Normal. While Grass/Electric can easily take Galvanize, there are of course other possibilities. Sap Sipper gives us a small nod to sapping electricity, and generally a lot of deer or horse sort pokemon get the ability. (Stantler, Girafarig, Sawsbuck, and more.) Static, Leaf Guard, Grass Pelt, or possibly even Hustle or Battery all feel like alright picks as well.
Grass/Normal: Once again, Sap Sipper makes for a decent choice, as well as Leaf Guard, Grass Pelt, or perhaps even Hustle.

My personal preference? Fire with literally anything, Water with Immunity or Gluttony, Grass/Electric with Galvanize, Static, Sap Sipper, or Grass Pelt, and Grass/Normal with Sap Sipper, Grass Pelt, or Leaf Guard.

tl;dr again fire/water/grasselectric or grassnormal and im still insane enough to even suggest the small possibility of prankster smokiddo ahaha
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
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Since it's popped up a lot, and I have an essay to procrastinate on:

Can people supporting non-electric Caribolt explain how they think a Level Up movepool with ThunderShock, Spark, Zap Cannon, Wild Charge, and Magnet Rise can imply anything else? Remember that Starters have more rules and conventions than a US political party - the LU movepool is essentially guarenteed to have those moves because of said conventions for a Gen 7 starter.

In particular I ask this to people supporting Grass/Normal - this typing causes us to move away from any aesthetic ideas that could salvage the idea of those moves making sense. Note also that in the one example we have of a dual-type starter changing types (Dartrix --> Decidueye), the majority of Decidueye's STAB options came from HS/Evo moves (Spirit Shackle, Phantom Force, Shadow Sneak), with only Astonish - a very generic move - and Ominous Wind (fairly generic to flying types, including in LU from Xatu) providing Ghost moves through the standard LU. Whilst I can at very least understand pure Grass (even though I disagree with it), I can't help but feel that Grass/Normal is being different for the sake of being differernt, whilst ignoring that it's wretched flavour. Jackson Pollock we are not, and I think that if we attempt to break every rule, we're just going to end up making a mess.
 

Gross Sweep

Poliswag
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I'll start of by saying I'm a big fan of simple when it comes to a lot of this stuff, and will do my best to keep my thoughts clear, concise, and understandable.

Fire: When it comes to typing I'm a fan of starting with a pure Fire-typing, and upgrading to Fire/Ground-Typing upon the first evolution. I don't feel a need for this Pokemon to break away from the majority, which simply start out with a singular typing. I'm fine with Technician as well.

Water: Similarly to Fire I like the perspective of starting out as a pure Water-type. However, breaking away from baby modo I feel our water type should not gain its Bug-typing until its final evolution. It's not the biggest concern at this juncture, and I'll find a way to sleep either way be it 2nd or 3rd evolution. Simply speaking from a flavor perspective I like waiting tell the final evolution (and it's the NFE so it won't really see competitive play, making flavor the leading factor in my book). Also fine with Poison Heal throughout.

Grass: This one has become the center of controversy, and I really only see 2 solutions to my liking. Either baby bolt starts as a Grass/Electric-Type with Galvanize, or it starts as a pure Grass-Type with a different HA. I don't like the idea of giving galvanize to a Pokemon that isn't an electric type, and I don't enjoy the Grass/Normal-type approach as I'm not a big fan of changing the secondary typing - leaving the two options I listed above. I don't have a strong opinion in either direction, though I would more than likely vote for Grass/Electric + Galvanize, but those are the 2 routes I'm currently a fan of.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
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Starter Pokemon ALL follow the "Grass > Water > Fire > Grass" circle in both directions. This includes Pokemon like Bulbasaur and Rowlet who have secondary typings. This becomes and issue with our starters because our Water-type starter final stage is also part Bug-type. This "breaks" the type triangle in the offensive direction (both Grass and Fire become neutral vs our Water starter, while it would also be able to hit both types SE early on depending on movepool). With this in mind, I wish to discuss how we can resolve this dilemma easily. The easiest way is for me to simply mandate that the first formes must all be pure Grass/Fire/Water Pokemon. If everyone is behind that, we can move onto the Second formes. These are a fair bit easier. We know from other games that these can do what they like. I'd like suggestions on type combinations people are happy with to take forward into a vote (which a huge emphasis on their final formes typings).
I haven't posted in CAP much if at all before, so I apologise if this is in the wrong place (though I do poke my head in occasionally out of curiosity), but is this always true? The sinnoh starters mess with this circle. What about infernape's fighting typing being SE against empoleon's steel, or that steel typing meaning torterra's grass attacks are no longer SE on empoleon? Or how torterra is no longer resistant against water attacks from empoleon?
 
I haven't posted in CAP much if at all before, so I apologise if this is in the wrong place (though I do poke my head in occasionally out of curiosity), but is this always true? The sinnoh starters mess with this circle. What about infernape's fighting typing being SE against empoleon's steel, or that steel typing meaning torterra's grass attacks are no longer SE on empoleon? Or how torterra is no longer resistant against water attacks from empoleon?
The type triangle being messed with by the final evolutions is all well and fine, our own here do that as well. The issue at hand here is breaking the type triangle with the prevos, which very much isn't fine. This is what DHR's post was referring to and is the primary problem that is to be addressed by this thread. tl;dr, final evos fucking with the triangle don't matter, just babies.


While I'm here I might as well give my own thoughts on the matter. I liked the idea of Grass/Normal but I can't justify it in any reasonable way, it causes too many issues to be worth fucking around with. Grass/Electric with Galvanize is the easiest path to take, I don't see a reason why not to.

I fully agree Baby Snael should NOT be Bug in it's first stage, but I'm unsure about which stage it should get it. A few others have pointed this out aswell, but if we were to follow precedent/trends, 1 dual-typed Water starter gained it's second type at the middle stage while the other 3 gained there's at the final stage. Considering how awkward this type is to work with in this process I think leaving Bug until final is pretty reasonable. The issue of a non-bug evolving into a bug is a lesser issue at this point and one I think can get the axe.

Not a whole lot to say about Fire. I'm indifferent to whether Ground should come in middle or final stage.
 
I think the middle evolution for the water type should have a different ability than poison heal for more eviolite usage, regenerator could work nicely but it doesn't make much sense. Poison heal does makes sense cause this creature is a natural predator of toxapex. As far as the fire and grass types go I think their prevos both have potential to be viable in lower tiers
 

G-Luke

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I think the middle evolution for the water type should have a different ability than poison heal for more eviolite usage, regenerator could work nicely but it doesn't make much sense. Poison heal does makes sense cause this creature is a natural predator of toxapex. As far as the fire and grass types go I think their prevos both have potential to be viable in lower tiers
Thats not how this works. Competitive merit is more or less a moot point in regards to prevos. Besides, no starter just randomly changes abilities from first stage to second stage, then change back again for final form
 
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