CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25g Moveset Discussion

[Catalisador]

Name: Boomburst Facilitator
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Work Up / Knock Off / Quick Attack
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z / Choice Scarf / Life Orb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty/Naive

I'm strongly against giving 25g access to Ice Beam. It seems like it was just submited as a way of easily breaking through our best counters with no drawback. A full-special or mixed setup set sounds dangerously overpowered with Ice Beam.

Versus Jumbao

252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 100+ SpD Jumbao: 146-172 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 100+ SpD Jumbao: 218-257 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Cyclohm

252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 242-286 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 361-426 (85.9 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Versus Tangrowth

252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 133-156 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 195-231 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The calculatons against defensive Jumbao show how an unboosted Ice Beam can easily break through it with just a bit of chip damage. After a possible Work Up boost, it is a guaranteed 2HKO.
For Cyclohm, Ice Beam will 2HKO with ease and, after a boost, it has a very high chance of one hit KOing.
Tangrowth can take non-boosted hits with ease, but struggles to beat a boosted 25g.

As discussed in discord, Hidden Power [Ice] provides the same neutral coverage without possibly overwhelming our counters.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 133-156 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Jumbao: 99-117 (25.5 - 30.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Jumbao: 146-172 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 161-192 (38.3 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 242-286 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 291-348 (76.1 - 91%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 255-302 (71.2 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


With these things in mind, I would like to make some changes in the set.

Moveset Submission

Name: You better WORK (special-based mixed wallbreaker)
Move 1: Work Up
Move 2: Boomburst
Move 3: Power Whip / Knock Off
Move 4: Synthesis / Quick Attack / Hidden Power [Ice] / Natural Gift
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb / Petaya Berry
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive

• Work Up is the true MVP of this set. Boosting both physical and special sides of the offense, giving 25g's poor Special Attack and decent Attack stats a good boost, without being overwhelming;
• Boomburst is the main Electric-type STAB. It's a spammable move with high damage that makes 25g's horrible Special Attack be decent. It also gives a better matchup against physically defensive pokemon like Tomohawk - OHKOing it and taking no residual Rocky Helmet/recoil damage besides Life Orb;
• Power Whip is the Grass-type STAB of choice. I consider it being better than Leaf Storm for not dropping the already low Special Attack stat and hitting on the physical side, which is good for opponents like Assault Vest Colossoil and Chansey;
• Knock Off is an option over Power Whip to give 25g more utility and helping it break through fat walls like Chansey more easily with Boomburst;
• The last slot was given to Synthesis for more longevity and recovering off the chip damage common walls do with Seismic Tosses, Scalds, etc.;
• Quick Attack is a priority option to pick up weakened foes;
• Hidden Power [Ice] provides good neutral coverage in general, Hidden Power [Fire] can be used instead to catch Ferrothorn;
• Natural Gift provides something similar to a Z-Nuke. In conjunction with Petaya Berry, it allows 25g to break through Jumbao with a 100 BP Poison-type move, for example. It isn't as overpowered as things like Poison Jab and Ice beam since it costs an item slot and can only be used once during the battle, making it difficult to fit on sets. Occa Berry is an option to hit Ferrothorn. It is a great lure option that was already seen on Gen 6 Talonflame and UU Breloom.

Life Orb maximizes the damage output, picking up crucial KOs on things like Tomohawk and Chansey. Petaya Berry is an option for Natural Gift that also has the benefit of boosting the Special Attack on a pinch, complimenting this set very well.
Here are the wall of calculations, proving against common threats. It also has Natural Gift calcs, that might seem like a controversial move.


Versus Chansey
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Galvanize Deerling Boomburst vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Knocked Off Chansey: 356-421 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Galvanize Deerling Boomburst vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 359-422 (51.1 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 0 Atk Life Orb Deerling Power Whip vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 351-413 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Tomohawk (fully physical Frustration vs special Boomburst comparison)
252 SpA Life Orb Galvanize Deerling Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 603-712 (145.6 - 171.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Galvanize Deerling Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 351-413 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Colossoil (Power Whip vs Leaf Storm comparison)
0 Atk Life Orb Deerling Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Colossoil: 463-546 (113.7 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 265-312 (65.1 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Cyclohm

+1 0 Atk Kee Berry Deerling Natural Gift (100 BP Fairy) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 146-172 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 242-286 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The most powerful, super-effective Natural Gift fails to KO Cyclohm. Hidden Power [Ice] can break through it, but it's only a 2HKO and only after a boost.

Versus Jumbao (lure)

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 100+ SpD Jumbao: 146-172 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Petaya Berry Deerling Natural Gift (100 BP Poison) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 312-368 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Petaya Berry Deerling Natural Gift (100 BP Poison) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 464-548 (119.5 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Petaya is a nice option to lure Jumbao, but is also very risky, since it is a "weaker" Z-nuke (only being able to use it once and doesn't dealing any damage through protect, while costing an itemslot as well).

Versus Tangrowth

0 Atk Petaya Berry Deerling Natural Gift (100 BP Poison) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 124-148 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 Atk Petaya Berry Deerling Natural Gift (100 BP Poison) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 188-222 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 88-104 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 133-156 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Knocked Off Tangrowth: 133-156 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Knocked Off Tangrowth: 195-231 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Petaya doesn't mess with Tangrowth, as it fails to KO and leave 25g vulnerable. Hidden Power [Ice] fails to pickup the KO on Assault Vest Tangrowth as well. In conjunction with Knock Off, however, we can potentially deal with it.

Versus Toxapex
252 SpA Life Orb Galvanize Deerling Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 283-335 (93.3 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Versus Ferrothorn (lure)
252 SpA Deerling Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 128-152 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Deerling Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 188-224 (53.4 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Occa Berry Deerling Natural Gift (80 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 184-220 (52.2 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Occa Berry Deerling Natural Gift (80 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 276-328 (78.4 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It works similarly to Petaya for Jumbao, but for Ferrothorn. Occa Berry gives utility by weakening a possible Fire-type move versus the likes of Volkraken or Heatran and getting a KO or 2HKO with Boomburst, while also giving the Fire-type lure for Ferrothorn - which can KO after some prior damage.

Versus Pajantom
252 SpA Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 86-102 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- 83.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Deerling Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 128-152 (41.2 - 49%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Galvanize Deerling Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 89-105 (28.7 - 33.8%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Galvanize Deerling Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 132-156 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock



These were the calculations I thought were the most relevant. However, if anyone has any doubts, I will gladly share more calculations and explanations to the set. I think this set provides a great option for 25g that can work as a wallbreaker or lure.

 

[Deck Knight]

Want to tweak the Boomburst Set based on cbrevan's responses:

Name: Boomburst Facilitator
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Power Whip / Leaf Storm
Move 3: Work Up
Move 4: Knock Off / Nature Power / Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z / Choice Scarf / Life Orb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty/Naive

We haven't discussed special options that much on 25g, and in the case of the Boomburst set (really a SpA set), Leaf Storm presents itself as a great Grassium nuke platform for a dedicated special set. Work Up is still good because Special Attack is mediocre. The last slot can Knock Off to remove Chansey Eviolite and other items, Nature Power to go with a Tapu Lele or Tapu Fini partner and expand coverage, or run a suitable Hidden Power.

25G Move Roundup:

Ice Beam: BoltBeam coverage is awesome on nearly everything, and I see no reason why a Pokemon as good as 25g needs strong Ice coverage. HP Ice along with Work Up is perfectly serviceable. I Oppose Ice Beam.

Nature Power: I feel like this move has been slept on, but its interaction with Terrains and the Galvanize Boost it receives without terrain makes it a very cool and flexible option. Because it's a Special attack and needs a Terrain to fully bring out its properties (the most interesting of which is Psy Terrain which disables its own priority attacks), I believe it to be balanced. I Support Nature Power.

Natural Gift: Another one of those strange moves with odd applications. This is effectively a strong one-time hidden power at the cost of an item slot and a move slot. I think the core of 25g is solid as it stands now and this one-of option wouldn't see as much use as Z-Crystals. I Support Natural Gift.

Smart Strike: As the only coverage move to survive cbrevan's latest post, I still believe it to be valuable as an option to hit Jumbao without OHKOing it (except as a Z-move). It doesn't have any other worrisome effects like flinch that Iron Head does, but its a solid choice that hits decently well on the switch against Tapu Bulu, Kyurem-B, Stratagem, Mega Crucibelle, Kerfluffle, and Syclant. I Support Smart Strike.

Encore: Encore is extremely dangerous on Pokemon that actually have an offensive presence and high speed, and I fear it would give 25g way too much opportunity to set up +2 or even +4 Atk unanswered. I Oppose Encore.

Leech Seed: It wasn't really brought up in any set, but I think 25g's strong offensive options makes Leech Seed a little too much. I Oppose Leech Seed.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Smart Strike: As the only coverage move to survive cbrevan's latest post, I still believe it to be valuable as an option to hit Jumbao without OHKOing it (except as a Z-move). It doesn't have any other worrisome effects like flinch that Iron Head does, but its a solid choice that hits decently well on the switch against Tapu Bulu, Kyurem-B, Stratagem, Mega Crucibelle, Kerfluffle, and Syclant. I Support Smart Strike.

Just to be clear, unapproved is not the same as disallowed. Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, and Poison Jab are still up for debate.

I've already voiced my opinions on coverage (I think it is very much needed), and I believe I've submitted movesets including each of these moves. I don't want to repeat myself, but if anyone else wants to chime in yay or nay they can still do so.

 

[G-Luke]

Leech Seed: It wasn't really brought up in any set, but I think 25g's strong offensive options makes Leech Seed a little too much. I Oppose Leech Seed.

Can you elaborate on this? I was planning on submitting this set anyways, but its a good a time as any to sub it.

Name: SubSeed Disrupter
Move 1: Leech Seed
Move 2: Substitute
Move 3: Return / Boomburst
Move 4: Horn Leech / Knock Off / Hidden Power [Fire]
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Timid

CAPg utilizes the classic SubSeed strategy to annoy the shit out of a bunch of Pokemon. Leech Seed and Substitute are self explanatory - set up a substitute on a Pokemon you force out, then set up Leech Seed if the Pokemon cannot immediately break your sub, enjoy outstalling the opponent by consistently regaining HP to make fresh new Substitutes. Return still hits hard with no investment thanks to Galvanize + STAB. Boomburst can also be ran if you opt to go special. Horn Leech provides even MOAR recovery and notably is secondary STAB that hits Ground types for super effective / neutral damage. Knock Off is a great attack for utility purposes and hits most things that resist Electric STAB at least neutrally. Hidden Power Fire is specifically for Kartana, so that this set can function as an excellent check for it.

0- SpA Abomasnow Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 300-356 (115.3 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 149-176 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Timid Nature sets can be ran with Hidden Power Fire to threaten Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn a bit more. (Jolly doesn't 2HKO Bulky Scizor even after Rocks, while with Naive it gets a 66.6% chance.)

Reasons why Leech Seed is balanced.

It does not mess up any of our C&C - Every Pokemon on the C&C list can effortlessly break our Subs. Many are Grass types which make them immune to Leech Seed regardless. And plenty of our offensive checks outspeed and can hit us hard before we even Sub!

SubSeed is not a broken, uncompetitive, or even majorly centralising strat - Its not hard to beat this set. It misses the power that SD and Special sets can carry, and plenty of viable Pokemon can easily take advantage of this. Usually what pushes SubSeed over the edge is the ability to get them up first on most of the metagame (thanks to either blazing speed or Prankster), and Taunt, Encore and/or Disable shenanigans. No one here has pushed for Disable nor Taunt on Grass CAP, and I can agree that Encore is a little to much for Grass CAP anyways.

SubSeed sets are in general a way to actually utilize the ok bulk that CAPg has in a safe and non problematic manner.

 

[david0895]

I like both of Nature Power and Natural Gift. The first use decently its SpA and can be used even without terrians, the latter is a nice gimmick option that can remove a specific counter at the cost of the item slot.

Also I join the Anti-Ice Beam train, iFeedBack provided all the necessary calcs so I will not repeat them

 

[Deck Knight]

Can you elaborate on this? I was planning on submitting this set anyways, but its a good a time as any to sub it.

Name: SubSeed Disrupter
Move 1: Leech Seed
Move 2: Substitute
Move 3: Return / Boomburst Body Slam
Move 4: Horn Leech / Knock Off / Hidden Power [Fire] / Synthesis
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Timid

CAPg utilizes the classic SubSeed strategy to annoy the shit out of a bunch of Pokemon. Leech Seed and Substitute are self explanatory - set up a substitute on a Pokemon you force out, then set up Leech Seed if the Pokemon cannot immediately break your sub, enjoy outstalling the opponent by consistently regaining HP to make fresh new Substitutes. Return still hits hard with no investment thanks to Galvanize + STAB. Boomburst can also be ran if you opt to go special. Horn Leech provides even MOAR recovery and notably is secondary STAB that hits Ground types for super effective / neutral damage. Knock Off is a great attack for utility purposes and hits most things that resist Electric STAB at least neutrally. Hidden Power Fire is specifically for Kartana, so that this set can function as an excellent check for it.

0- SpA Abomasnow Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 300-356 (115.3 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 149-176 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Timid Nature sets can be ran with Hidden Power Fire to threaten Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn a bit more. (Jolly doesn't 2HKO Bulky Scizor even after Rocks, while with Naive it gets a 66.6% chance.)

Reasons why Leech Seed is balanced.

It does not mess up any of our C&C - Every Pokemon on the C&C list can effortlessly break our Subs. Many are Grass types which make them immune to Leech Seed regardless. And plenty of our offensive checks outspeed and can hit us hard before we even Sub!

SubSeed is not a broken, uncompetitive, or even majorly centralising strat - Its not hard to beat this set. It misses the power that SD and Special sets can carry, and plenty of viable Pokemon can easily take advantage of this. Usually what pushes SubSeed over the edge is the ability to get them up first on most of the metagame (thanks to either blazing speed or Prankster), and Taunt, Encore and/or Disable shenanigans. No one here has pushed for Disable nor Taunt on Grass CAP, and I can agree that Encore is a little to much for Grass CAP anyways.

SubSeed sets are in general a way to actually utilize the ok bulk that CAPg has in a safe and non problematic manner.

I've made only two edit to the set because it's what I would do. Want to make SubSeed way more annoying? Spread around some of that yellow magic with Galvanize Body Slam. It doesn't hit as hard as Return, but that high paralysis chance slowing opponents down along with full para preserving your subs and giving you an extra free turn of Leech Seed is menacing. In the final slot I also added a Synthesis option because paralysis + Leech Seed is incredibly annoying and even a single lucky turn can let you Synth back up above Sub range. Torterra is presently the only Pokemon immune to both Leech Seed and Elec Body Slam, and much as I love Torterra's design, it's not going to be made viable by this set existing.

Which is primarily why I don't like Leech Seed, because taken on its own Leech Seed is perfectly fine and balanced. It probably isn't too powerful here because Grass types tend to fare so well against 25g, but adding in the x-factor of decent Base Power paralysis spread to the set can let it win matchups it probably shouldn't. That set if this set is something we don't mind, Leech Seed is still an option I don't think 25g needs to be successful so I think we can be conservative on it.

 

[snake]

Name: Z-Terrain Sweeper
Move 1: Grassy Terrain / Electric Terrain
Move 2: Swords Dance
Move 3: Return / Double Edge
Move 4: Power Whip / Horn Leech
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z / Electrium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

I wanted to compare this set with the now-disallowed Z-Sleep Powder set. This set accomplishes the same task where we sweep with a double dance set, except instead of Sleep crippling our checks, we use terrains to power up our STAB moves. Since Grassium Z can be used on Grass-type STAB as well, it's probably the better Z-Crystal to abuse, but Electrium Z can be used if you want to sweep with super powerful Returns.

Name: Specially-biased Mixed G
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Hidden Power Ice
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Power Whip
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb / Magnet
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Naive

I know there have been a number of mixed sets floating around, but I'm pretty sure that this set will be more effective than Work Up (not that Work Up will be bad). Chansey will want to soak up Boomburst from CAP25g, but then Knock Off can smack away its Eviolite. You need the special attack investment to make Boomburst worthwhile as your only STAB Electric-type move, so you can't pump more EVs into Attack to break open Chansey, but simply knocking off Chansey is enough for a teammate to crack it open. This way, you have an open moveslot not for a slow setup move, but instead to smack opposing Ground-types with the correct move: Power Whip smashes in Assault Vest Colossoil and Gastrodon, while Power Whip + Hidden Power Ice can work past Landorus-T and Zygarde, even with Magnet sets. The reason to run Boomburst, over say, Return, is cutting through Tomohawk more easily, not taking contact damage from Ferrothorn (meaning it's overall more spammable), and making Hidden Power Ice more powerful again Ground-types.

 

[G-Luke]

I've made only two edit to the set because it's what I would do. Want to make SubSeed way more annoying? Spread around some of that yellow magic with Galvanize Body Slam. It doesn't hit as hard as Return, but that high paralysis chance slowing opponents down along with full para preserving your subs and giving you an extra free turn of Leech Seed is menacing. In the final slot I also added a Synthesis option because paralysis + Leech Seed is incredibly annoying and even a single lucky turn can let you Synth back up above Sub range. Torterra is presently the only Pokemon immune to both Leech Seed and Elec Body Slam, and much as I love Torterra's design, it's not going to be made viable by this set existing.

Which is primarily why I don't like Leech Seed, because taken on its own Leech Seed is perfectly fine and balanced. It probably isn't too powerful here because Grass types tend to fare so well against 25g, but adding in the x-factor of decent Base Power paralysis spread to the set can let it win matchups it probably shouldn't. That set if this set is something we don't mind, Leech Seed is still an option I don't think 25g needs to be successful so I think we can be conservative on it.

Parahax, while something not considered in the making of this set, still to me does not push CAPg into busted territory. I can't really tell what matchups that Body Slam can consistently win more than Return / Boomburst, and running mono Electric is a bad idea, as it makes Ground types another check to the SubSeed set thanks to most (not Zygarde) having high Attack stats to easily break its sub and do lots of damage to CAPg.

 

[cbrevan]

Sorry for the delay everyone, I've been busy irl but that's not much of an excuse to spend three days on a closing post. Moving forward I'll make sure to prepare these things beforehand. Onto the topic at hand, this is our closing post for 25w's movesets. In this post I'll provide feedback not only on the last 48 hours of discussion, but also touch upon various movesets that were brought up and dead ended in the thread. The reason for doing so is to address any competitive concerns with these movesets in this stage rather than push them off to the movepool stage. I've also included the final list of movesets and disallowed moves which will be updated to the second post once I get movepool up.

Starting off with thread feedback:
Name: Lure
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Return / Double-Edge
Move 3: Power Whip / Horn Leech
Move 4: Iron Head / Zen Headbutt
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb / Steelium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Unapproved. I raised concerns over targeting out checks and there was not a response as to why we should be luring them. Given the number of sets approved and current access to coverage moves such as Knock Off and Brick Break, the need to target bulky Grasses, mainly Jumbao, is questionable. Going deeper into coverage, Smart Strike looks to be the cut off for Steel-type coverage since it needs chip damage or a Z crystal to cleanly break Jumbao. For Psychic, everything Psycho Cut and above will be disallowed since even with the 10 bp difference it allows 25g to beat Amoonguss and Fidgit at +2.

Name: Synthesis Set
Move 1: Synthesis
Move 2: Wood Hammer / Power Whip
Move 3: Double-Edge / Return
Move 4: Brick Break / Smart Strike / Iron Tail
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers / Steelium-Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Unapproved. Similar to above, Iron Tail saw no further discussion as to why we want to target would be checks. Synthesis is already approved via other sets, so I see no need to make edits to this set in order to approve it.

Name: You better WORK (special-based mixed wallbreaker)
Move 1: Work Up
Move 2: Boomburst
Move 3: Power Whip / Knock Off
Move 4: Synthesis / Quick Attack / Hidden Power [Ice] / Natural Gift
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb / Petaya Berry
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive
Approved. While I was skeptical of Natural Gift, even at +2 it still fails to break through defensive walls such as Cyclohm and isn't even a clean ohko on Trace Jumbao. While it does allow the Swords Dance set to game the matchup against some of its checks, the move is situational and single use, which limits how powerful it can be. On this set the move comes now where close to being unbalanced and helps push through Jumbao.

Name: SubSeed Disrupter
Move 1: Leech Seed
Move 2: Substitute
Move 3: Return / Boomburst / Body Slam
Move 4: Horn Leech / Knock Off / Hidden Power [Fire]
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Timid
Approved. Sub seeding is checked by the same Pokemon other sets are checked by, so I'm not concerned with this set's power level. Even factoring in paralysis we're still hard pressed to beat our checks, particularly Cyclohm and other Grass-types.

Name: Z-Terrain Sweeper
Move 1: Grassy Terrain / Electric Terrain
Move 2: Swords Dance
Move 3: Return / Double Edge
Move 4: Power Whip / Horn Leech
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z / Electrium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Approved. While Z Terrain does provide a speed boost, it does not allow 25g to invalidate some of its checks in the way Sleep Powder did. This is a niche set that helps improve the offense matchup while being worse at power through walls when compared to the SD set. Lack of Quick Attack also leaves this set more susceptible to Scarf users such as Syclant than other sets.

Name: Specially-biased Mixed G
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Hidden Power Ice
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Power Whip
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb / Magnet
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Naive
Approved. Nothing controversial with this set, its just a specially biased version of an earlier approved mixed set.

Name: Status inflictor
Move 1: Secret Power
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Quick Attack / Encore
Move 4: Knock Off / Swords Dance / Synthesis
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb/ Grassium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe /4 Def
Unapproved. Encore is a powerful move that opens up a ton of set up options for 25g, even against Pokemon that should be able to deter us. Since my last post the move hasn't had much in the way of discussion, and in the absence of a consensus, I would like to disallow Encore. This is for balance reasons to prevent 25g from taking advantage of its checks in situations we haven't intended for.

Now to summarize the thread:
The following sets have all been approved:

Approved sets

Name: Utility Attacker
Move 1: Return
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Power Whip / Volt Switch
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Magnet
EVs: 168 HP / 72 Atk / 16 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Physically Biased Mixed
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Return / Body Slam
Move 4: Knock Off / Quick Attack
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Magnet / Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe*
Nature: Hasty / Naive

Name: Swords Dance + Quick Attack
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Quick Attack
Move 3: Power Whip / Horn Leech / Knock Off / Brick Break
Move 4: Return / Body Slam / Double-Edge
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z / Magnet
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Set Name: Bulky Set-up Sweeper
Move 1: Bulk Up
Move 2: Return / Facade
Move 3: Power Whip / Brick Break
Move 4: Brick Break / Knock Off / Substitute
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers / Iapapa Berry
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Atk / 64 Spe
Nature: Adamant

Name: You better WORK (special-based mixed wallbreaker)
Move 1: Work Up
Move 2: Boomburst
Move 3: Power Whip / Knock Off
Move 4: Synthesis / Quick Attack / Hidden Power [Ice] / Natural Gift
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb / Petaya Berry
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive

Name: Z-Terrain Sweeper
Move 1: Grassy Terrain / Electric Terrain
Move 2: Swords Dance
Move 3: Return / Double Edge
Move 4: Power Whip / Horn Leech
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z / Electrium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Specially-biased Mixed G
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Hidden Power Ice
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Power Whip
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb / Magnet
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Naive

Name: SubSeed Disrupter
Move 1: Leech Seed
Move 2: Substitute
Move 3: Return / Boomburst / Body Slam
Move 4: Horn Leech / Knock Off / Hidden Power [Fire]
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Timid

Approved Moves:
Return, Double Edge, Quick Attack, Swords Dance, Power Whip, Horn Leech, Boomburst, Knock Off, Brick Break, Rapid Spin, Volt Switch, Bulk Up, Work Up, Facade, Body Slam, Substitute, Power Whip, Hidden Power, Natural Gift, Grassy Terrain, Electric Terrain, Leech Seed, Substitute, Synthesis

Disallowed Moves:
Extreme Speed, Physical Ground Coverage over 60 BP, Competitive Special Attack boosting status moves aside from Work Up, Physical Fighting-type coverage over 75 BP, Physical Bug-type coverage over 60 BP, Physical Rock-type coverage over 50 BP, Physical Steel-type coverage over 70 BP, Physical Psychic-type coverage over 60 BP, Sleep Inflicting Status Moves, Encore, Ice Beam

On approved and disallowed moves: I've only listed moves that have come up over the course of discussion.I'll explain how we handle unlisted moves promptly in the movepool thread.

Now all that's left to do is wait for our TL reachzero to submit his final judgement on the result of this thread.

 

[reachzero]

This looks good, approved!