CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25w Moveset Discussion

[Quanyails]

NEW: This is a Celebration CAP, meaning that we are going out of our way to break some rules. We'll be creating a set of three Pokemon this time around, a set of Fire, Water, and Grass-type starters! You can read exactly which rules we'll be breaking here and the logic behind Celebration CAPs here. Give these a read-through to get some context.

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CAP 25 Grass-type moveset discussion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-25-part-9-cap-25g-moveset-discussion.3641726/
CAP 25 Fire-type moveset discussion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-25-part-9-cap-25f-moveset-discussion.3641727/
CAP 25 Water-type moveset discussion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-25-part-9-cap-25w-moveset-discussion.3641728/

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be four kinds of posts in the thread:

• Moveset Submissions
• Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
• General Commentary
• Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates

This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:

1. People post moveset submissions in a prescribed format (see below)
2. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
3. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
4. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
5. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)

By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:

• The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
• The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community

Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Legendary Signature Moves

Aeroblast
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create

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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power / Energy Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid

• Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
• Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut very hard.
• Ice Beam complements Thunderbolt very well, allowing it to hit Ground-types like Zygarde.
• Earth Power lets CAP X hit Heatran and Mollux very hard, while Energy Ball lets it hit Gastrodon and Mega Swampert harder.
• Sheer Force powers up CAP X's main moves.
• Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
• Modest is preferred for more power, but Timid can be used to outspeed base 81s like Gyarados and Necturna before boosting.

Copyable template

[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]

Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc. These movesets will be put on the CAP subsite immediately at the end of the CAP for the playtest.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


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Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

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CAP 25 so far:

Topic Leader: reachzero

Topic Leadership Team:
EpicUmbreon29 - Typing
snake_rattler - Ability
jas61292 - Stats
cbrevan - Movepool

Name: Starter Trio CAPs

Description: This CAP is not one Pokemon, but three seperate Pokemon, based off of a Grass/Water/Fire starter trio.

Explanation: There is rarely such thing as a competitively viable starter Pokemon in the OU metagame, rare exceptions being Serperior, Greninja, and Blaziken for their insanely powerful abilities, and Infernape for his speed and movepool. Running three seperate CAP Processes with different Concepts can be loads of fun, and a nice way to celebrate CAP with our own starter trio! I'd love to see what the artists can come up with, and what pre-evos will be made alongside this trio, as well.
I've spoken to Birkal about this framework, and I've decided that this framework would definitely limit the Typing stage of each CAP, but not necessarily limit the Abilities stages, as Overgrow, Torrent, and Blaze aren't very competitively viable, and not necessarily limit the Stats stages, as starter trios tend not to share the same BSTs, giving us flexibility with where and how we want to place stats, especially with each "starter" most likely having a different concept from the others.

Possible Questions:
Is it possible to create a fully competitively viable Grass/Water/Fire trio?
What can be learned from a trio of Pokemon that will mostly likely check, if not counter, each other in a Rock Paper Scissors manner?
Exactly what does it take to create a fully competitively viable starter trio, something unprecedented in all of official, competitive Pokemon?

Of course, feedback is all but begged for as we work to flesh out this framework!

Starter Fact Sheet

Final Submission

• Name - Astounding Ability Actualization (Triple A)
• Description - These Pokemon each maximize the potential of their given, separate abilities by coordinating their movepools and that ability's competitive effect.
• Justification - This is an Actualization concept much like Cyclohm's original "Neglected Ability." In my research on what made Pokemon with "Starter Level" stats effective, the common denominator was they all had abilities they used to full effect with their other competitive aspects. This framework gives us a unique opportunity to A-B test some fairly powerful abilities we usually shy away from and bring out an effective competitive starter trio.
• Questions To Be Answered -
  • Which Abilities are best suited to a full, comprehensive exploration of their specific mechanics?
  • Why does Ability seem to be the common factor in taking "starter-esque" Pokemon into prominence (e.g. Protean and Battle Bond Greninja, Contrary Serperior, Speed Boost Blaziken to Ubers, etc.)
  • What is the threshold where maximizing an ability goes toi far, such as Blaziken's combination of Swords Dance, strong attack and mid-grade speed, and high BP STABS with Speed Boost or Protean Greninja's huge speed and just-varied enough movepool in prior Generations?
  • How will introducing three specialized Pokemon into the metagame at once impact it overall?
  • Which type combinations along with the starter types are best suited to maximizing the potential of a specific ability, and why?
• Explanation - Competitive Pokemon has suffered from a massive power creep for a long time. In order for a Pokemon to be effective, not only does it have to be fairly good generally, it also can't be directly outclassed. Considering our Framework, our Pokemon are already competing against Heatran/Volcarona, Toxapex/Keldeo/Greninja, and Ferrothorn/Kartana for offensive or defensive roles. However, each of those Pokemon have their own flaws that give our FWG CAP Trio space to explore if we are focused on a key niche for each of them.
  
  Let's take Grass for example, and Tough Claws. Tough Claws boosts one of the most incredibly CAP-relevant moves, Grass Knot, because it is a special contact attack. Only Mega Metagross ever even came close to utilizing this combination, and Mega-Meta was banned (for other reasons, of course). Grass could also use it's huge number of healing options with Triage, including priority Strength Sap that even outruns Bullet Punch. Nearly every Fire attack has a secondary effect chance perfect for Serene Grace or Sheer Force. Water has a few specific moves that would also love Serene Grace, but would also appreciate breaking through Gastrodon and Mollux with Mold Breaker. Suffice it to say, this concept gives us an ability to meet our Framework demands and think through a huge combination of synergistic types and abilities in a single project.

CAP 25g

Typing: Grass/Electric
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7875516
Abilities: Overgrow/Galvanize
Stats: 84 HP / 106 Atk / 82 Def / 77 SpA / 80 SpD / 106 Spe


CAP 25f

Typing: Fire/Ground
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7870058
Abilities: Blaze/Technician
Stats: 88 HP / 116 Atk / 67 Def / 88 SpA / 78 SpD / 97 Spe


CAP 25w

Typing: Water/Bug
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7872739
Abilities: Torrent/Poison Heal
Stats: 91 HP / 94 Atk / 110 Def / 80 SpA / 97 SpD / 63 Spe

 

[cbrevan]

Approved Movesets

Name: Sticky Web
Move 1: Sticky Web
Move 2: U-Turn / Toxic
Move 3: Protect
Move 4: Scald
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Careful / Calm

Name: Isolation Trapper
Move 1: Liquidation
Move 2: Spiky Shield
Move 3: Psycho Shift / Toxic
Move 4: Infestation / Spider Web
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 240 SpD / 4 Spe
Nature: Careful

Movesest Name: Bulky Swords Dance
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Facade
Move 3: Aqua Jet
Move 4: Spiky Shield / Leech Life
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Nature: Adamant / Brave

cap25w @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 236 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock / Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam / Scald
- Toxic
- Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield

Name: Trick Room Setter
Move 1: Ice Beam / Scald
Move 2: Leech Life / Scald / U-Turn
Move 3: Spiky Shield
Move 4: Trick Room
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpA
Nature: Relaxed (+Def -Spe)

Under Consideration

None!

Disallowed Moves: Recover and variants, Moonlight, Morning Sun, Synthesis, Shore Up, Wish, Perish Song, Lunge, Taunt, Spite, Disable, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Coil, Baneful Bunker

 

[cbrevan]

Hello everyone. As the final competitive stage for this CAP, we will be deciding on what moves are and are not appropriate for CAP 25w based on our starter framework, our concept, and our already determined factors such as typing, ability, and base stats. This will be done through carefully considering different movesets in regards to our concept and threatlist.

As per our concept, we will have two main goals to work with. Our first goal is to identify potential movesets that will best take advantage of our chosen ability, Poison Heal. Our second goal, as decided in concept assessement, is to tailor our moveset so that CAP 25w is a primarily defensive Pokemon.

Our third consideration will be our threatlist, which should serve as a general guideline in what Pokemon to target with our movesets. Pay extra attention to this list when considering what Pokemon to calc for when building your proposed moveset.

Now, before I open the gates and allow moveset submissons, I would like us to spend one to two days with a general discussion concerning how our chosen ability Poison Heal may affect our movesets. Considering how heavily this concept depends on ability and moves interactions, I think the discussion is warranted to better flesh out our expectations and desires for this stage. This will also give us an oppurtunity to explore how our framework may influence this stage.

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Poison Heal? Are there ways to effectively utilize Poison Heal in our movesets other than direct move interaction?

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

Once I feel like these questions have been sufficiently explored, I'll open the thread up to moveset submissions and we'll proceed as outlined in the OP. At that time, I will post my expectations for moveset submissions. Until then, please refrain from posting moveset submissions. I'd like us to focus on these questions before we jump into the meat of the thread.

 

[Wenderz]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Poison Heal? Are there ways to effectively utilize Poison Heal in our movesets other than direct move interaction?

One move that should be fairly obvious is Protect, an universal move (save Regigigas but we don't care about it right ?) as it basically gives free extra HP from Poison Heal each time you're using it, other variants like Spiky Shield or Baneful Banker also work but I'm not sure if we should consider them now due to their distribution and potentially unwanted competitive implications. Besides, protection moves are probably one of the reasons why Poison Heal was chosen, since they allow CAP 25W to play around Z-Moves users like Lando-T and Zygarde that we want to counter. However, if we give something like an instant recovery as well as utility moves to CAP 25W, I think it will be harder to consider protection moves in our moveset if their sole point is to exploit the extra Poison Heal recovery and Z-moves protections, that's why I think Wish would fit CAP 25W perfectly as it can be used in tandem with Protect and the likes and two turns to heal with a recovery move also mean another turn to benefit from Poison Heal.

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?

If we give the above mentionned moves, CAP 25W will naturally become a defensive cleric and an absorb statut due to its ability. It can also act as a slow pivot if it gets U-Turn, which can be used in tandem with Wish in order to bring and heal another Pokemon from your team safely. Poison heal also helps in this case because it means that CAP 25W won't have to heal itself with Wish every time it comes on the field. However, I would like to see a versatile Pokemon that isn't limited to one viable set, that's why I think a stallbreaker variant should be considered. Indeed, Poison Heal allows CAP 25W to come on a dozen of passive defensive Pokemon without the fear of being statued, and with moves like Infestation and Taunt, this shouldn't be too hard to achieve.

 

[MrDollSteak [Old]]

Long time lurker here, I love the concept of this Pokemon and just couldn't wait to get involved.

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Poison Heal? Are there ways to effectively utilize Poison Heal in our movesets other than direct move interaction?
To state the obvious the standard exploitable Poison Heal moves, Protect and Substitute seem like natural choices. I also think that it might be worth considering the addition of Spiky Shield or Baneful Bunker to 25W as they make it slightly more threatening towards those physical attackers it aims to check.

Scald, and Toxic also naturally complement the ability by providing constant chip damage to the foe through status, with the burn from Scald in particular increasing 25W's longevity.

One move that I think is particularly interesting is Infestation. 25W being a bug type would likely grant it TM access regardless, and it allows 25W to trap Pokemon that are unable to threaten it, and grinding them down with its natural recovery and protection moves. This combination is a potentially scary thought since it would allow 25W to come in on any burnt or passive Pokemon and dismantle them completely.

Another move that might work well with Poison Heal is Rapid Spin. Since 25W is weak to SR, having Rapid Spin to clear it could be beneficial, while also having the Poison Heal mitigate the SR damage slightly.

 

[G-Luke]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Poison Heal? Are there ways to effectively utilize Poison Heal in our movesets other than direct move interaction?

Other than the obvious attacks, one move that had gotten notable support on the Discord channel is Sticky Web. Thanks to PH, we would have a Sticky Web user that has longevity and can consistently set webs throughout the match when needed.

Personally though I do not believe we should have hazard removal. CAPw will already be strapped for moveslots, and relying on a hazard weak Pokemon to remove hazrds are never a great idea, so I am against the addition of Rapid Spin and Defog

 

[Dogfish44]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Poison Heal? Are there ways to effectively utilize Poison Heal in our movesets other than direct move interaction?

This is by far the most exciting part of the project for me! So many options available to us.

First off, I'm going to agree with the above by Wenderz: Protect (and enhanced variants) and Wish are both well in line with concept. I'm also going to add Substitute to that list of moves which function well.

From there, we have moves which let slow healing be stacked. Ingrain, Aqua Ring, and Leech Seed each come with their own benefits and pitfalls - but all provide further passive healing, which goes wondrously with Poison Heal's passive healing.

We can even go a bit further abroad, and look at what benefits from Poison Heal's item choice. Trick lets you exchange Toxic Orb for something far more useful, like Leftovers. Heck, even Chansey's Eviolite would suffice as a solid target. I also like Psycho Shift - a 100% accurate Toxic that breaks past Magic Bounce sounds delicious.

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?

I think there is little pressure on us to pick a particular single role. We're obviously a strong Physical/Mixed wall, but beyond that we have incredible freedom - every role enjoys not just being immune to being forced out by Toxic, but healing from it. I do see us as being very capable of using switches that we force in performing set up, whether we go from hazard setting, to hazard removal, to even something like Trick Room setting.

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

Water has the lowest number of 100% precedent moves (Sheet by FrostyBiyt), beyond Special Ice moves which don't feel as if they're particularly heinous from 80 SpA. So I don't feel as if there is any pressing concern for us to fix any move choice boundaries.

 

[Catalisador]

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?

Firstly, I'd like to add that being defensive doesn't necessarily mean that we have to rely on passive strategies such as SubToxic. Plenty defensive pokemon have found success in the metagame with their roles of secondary win conditions. I'd like to show support to this role for CAP25w, specially with our ability being Poison Heal. More details on that next.

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Poison Heal? Are there ways to effectively utilize Poison Heal in our movesets other than direct move interaction?

The first thing that comes to my mind when I hear of Poison Heal is the ability to be "invulnerable" to status conditions. Once the Toxic Orb activates, we are pretty much immune to paralysis, burn and sleep. This makes CAP25w the perfect contender to boosting moves such as Acid Armor, Calm Mind, Amnesia and Coil.
Similarly to how Gliscor can abuse a SD set, Clefable can abuse CM and Slowbro used to abuse CM back in ORAS, we could make CAP25w be a defensive pokemon that can effectively abuse boosting moves to work as a win condition late game. It's decent mixed offenses also opens the door for impredictability, being able to boost both physical and special sides of the spectrum.
This would not only give CAP25w an unique niche over other common bulky waters but would also open the door for strategies in all kinds of playstyles such as Stall or Balance and maybe even hyper offensive builds

 

[VannAccessible]

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?

Ever since we chose Water/Bug as our defensive typing, I’ve maintained that CAP25w has phenomenal defensive synergy with a plethora of Trick Room mons.

Resisting Water, Ground, Fighting and being able to drive away Fire, Psychic and Dark types is a tremendous boon for the following common TR mons:

Magenera
Mega Mawile
Stakataka
Fidgit
Marowak-A (Lightninnrod a bonus)
Mega Camerupt
Crawdaunt
Cresselia
Renuclius
Conkledurr
Slowbro/Slowking
Tapu Bulu

Also useful is the fact many of these mons resist Flying, Rock and Electric, giving CAP25w and nice return on that defensive synergy.

Also, it’s very worth noting that CAP25w is a natural check to Greninja, whose Water Shuriken priority is a common stop to TR sweeps.

With all this in mind, I’d like to see CAP have some options to support the Trick Room playstyle. Trick Room obviously would be the most ideal move, with Poison Heal providing longevity, CAP25w could set up the field effect multiple times throughout the match. U-Turn might be the most intriguing option, letting CAP25w utilitize its defensive synergy with its team mates, bringing them in after setting up the field effect, while also maintaining momentum on switch ins. Healing Wish would let it bring a sweeper come back to full health giving it a second wind. Memento would be another option, letting a sweeper come in easily.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Poison Heal? Are there ways to effectively utilize Poison Heal in our movesets other than direct move interaction?

Protect and friends is an obvious candidate for Poison Heal coordination, as it lets us stall out healing as well. Wish also works in this way, and it makes us quite the tough nut to crack. I'm still wondering why we haven't got a mention of Facade yet, as its a great 140 BP Attacking move, meaning we don't have to be as passive as some of the mons on the defensive side as well. Although I bet it won't actually gain traction in an actually moveset, Dive is a unique possibility that similar works to stall out Poison Heal turns while keeping us invulnerable from most damage. Finally, hazard removal also works with CAPw, those moves being Rapid Spin and Defog, as we are able to heal off the damage from switching into hazards.

Most of the stuff here isn't direct move interaction but more of slighty related move that work well with it, so there is that answer.

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?

Probably the best, and most obvious role for CAPw is some sort of Defensive Tank, trying to cripple mons with status from moves like Scald while also hitting bulkier mons like Tomohawk, Zapdos, and Cyclohm with Toxic. This works because we won't have to worry about negative status ailments ourself with Toxic Orb Poison Heal, and it will give us great passive recovery to tank hits throughout the match. CAPw could also use its decent attack stats to possible run a Bulky Attacker set, utilizing a whole bunch of coverage moves to better take on certain mons, as well as utilize that 140 BP Facade, all while still being quite healthy to boot.

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

See no need to go outside the boundaries of the framework for this specific CAPw, as we pretty have all the tools we want for it and none of the required stuff is particularly terrible for it.

 

[xurkitrium-z]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Poison Heal? Are there ways to effectively utilize Poison Heal in our movesets other than direct move interaction?

Strongly agree with Protect/Baneful Bunker/Spiky Shield to maximize healing effectiveness (personally I prefer Spiky Shield- Baneful Bunker hampers any attempts at Toxic stalling by giving the opponent normal poison), and Wish to synergize with protecting moves and 25w's good bulk. Poison Heal gives 25w increased longevity on the battlefield, so I think that moves like Infestation and Leech Seed that deal some damage each turn are a good fit to synergize not just with the longevity Poison Heal grants 25w, but with protecting moves too. I also, for the same reason, think Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes are good options for 25w, since it'll have the capacity to stay in longer and set up multiple layers of hazards more easily.

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?

I really like 25w as a bulky pivot- its typing and bulk means that it'll be able to come in easily on the pokemon it checks and force them to switch, but similarly it'll be forced out by its counters, most of which will be getting free switch-ins to 25w bc of 25w's medium attacking stats and low speed. So 25w will likely have 1-2 turns in before it's forced to switch out. Rather than U-Turn I'd like to suggest Parting Shot here as the pivoting move of choice: it allows 25w to switch out and let a partner come in more safely, gaining a lot of momentum. Also, to maximize 25w's effectiveness in the turns it's in, utility moves like Rapid Spin/Defog, the aforementioned hazards, status moves, and Reflect/Light Screen all come to mind.

The last thing I want to mention for 25w is that several of the pokemon 25w is supposed to check are set-up sweepers that could potentially just continue to set up on 25w and hit it with powerful neutral attacks. For this reason, Haze/Topsy-Turvy and Whirlwind/Roar/Dragon Tail should be in consideration.

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Poison Heal? Are there ways to effectively utilize Poison Heal in our movesets other than direct move interaction?

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?

I'm going to answer both of these at once. We have some fantastic ideas generated here, but I wanted to throw out the idea of a bulky attacker who stat boosts. Bulk Up coupled with Leech Life and Protect/Spiky Shield could prove to be an interesting and effective boosting strategy that doesn't totally mess up our checks/counters list. Poison Heal syncs up really well with Bulk up and Leech Life, since the passive healing of Poison Heal and a protection move pairs really well with the active healing of Leech Life. My main concern with CAP25w is that we actually run the risk of it not being viable in CAP OU, but I feel that a bulky set up set could help it find a space where it can really succeed. What's cool about a bulky set up attacker is that the last move slot could be really flexible. Wish, Aqua Ring, Infestation, Liquidation, Scald, Toxic, and Substitute are all cool options that could fill that last moveslot.

I realize that a purely defensive set and/or support sets are also popular, but I firmly believe that if we give CAP25w some unpredictability in its set, it will be more likely to succeed.

EDIT: I didn't point out that I think we should avoid special boosting (Calm Mind, Quiver Dance) because it puts us at significant risk of messing with our C&C list. However, even with some boosts, we can't break through most of our C&C list, so I don't think physical boosting poses a threat to mess those up.

 

[escarlata]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Poison Heal? Are there ways to effectively utilize Poison Heal in our movesets other than direct move interaction?
I think one of the most abusable moves on a Pokemon with Poison Heal is Psycho Shift. It solves one of Poison Heal's bigger problems which is being afflicted by other status conditions. One of my qualms about a bulky Water having Poison Heal is that you have to be cautious when switching into Scalds (something that a bulky water should be able to do freely) before activation of Toxic Orb. Psycho Shift solves that problem by allowing yourself to cure yourself of any other status that hit you before you manage to trigger your Toxic Orb, guaranteeing that you are almost always able to get your passive regen running. On top of that, it serves as a better Toxic by virtue of having a higher accuracy and being able to hit through Magic Bounce.
Out of the protection moves, I really don't like Baneful Bunker, because you normally want to burn or Toxic them instead. Protect and Spiky Shield are fine though.
Also, surprised at the lack of mention of Recover etc., since it complements Poison Heal by accomplishing what Poison Heal doesn't.

 

[hawk1113]

The last thing I want to mention for 25w is that several of the pokemon 25w is supposed to check are set-up sweepers that could potentially just continue to set up on 25w and hit it with powerful neutral attacks. For this reason, Haze/Topsy-Turvy and Whirlwind/Roar/Dragon Tail should be in consideration.

I thought so too, for the longest time, but Discord set me straight:

+6 140+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 216 HP / 252+ Def Araquanid: 165-194 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

Even at +6, Zygarde struggles to 3HKO us and that's before factoring in Subs or Protect Spam. Meanwhile, we threaten a 3HKO of our own with just HP: Ice, and are a major threat if we get anything spicier (Ice Beam, Avalanche). Revenankh similarly suffers.

+6 4 Atk Revenankh Shadow Sneak vs. 216 HP / 252+ Def Araquanid: 121-144 (32 - 38.1%) -- 81% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal

M-Gyarados does wreck us after a few boosts, but also can't afford to spend several turns boosting against our Bug STAB.

All that being said, I want to push back a little on Discord's refusal to have phazing or disruption on 25-w. Our meager list still leaves a few admittedly less common boosting 'mons we may struggle against - Swords Dance M-Scizor, Bulk-Up Arghonaut, and CM Keldeo. We're also supposed to have ALL sets of our Pressure Pokemon feel, well, Pressured, but Swords Dance Tapu Bulu can come in, soak a hit, SD, soak another hit, and then just heal it off and destroy us with Horn Leech. I think some way to push back against this is important, and we have three options:

- Straight up anti-boost technology, such as Haze/Topsy-Turvy or Whirlwind/Roar/Dragon Tail. This can make us extremely obnoxious and powerful.

- Taunt. We have serious 4MSS, but it does give us a way to both prevent boosting and shut down opposing passive 'mons.

- Our own boosting! I am most in favor of this as an alternate set - I'd love to see Coil, Bulk Up, or Swords Dance to allow us to race those boosting 'mons and threaten them ourselves. I emphasized the physical since that's what we lean towards offensively.

 

[Roland le preaux]

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?
I'll add my voice that I think 25w should have the option to be a slow U-Turn pivot and I think that move is almost necessary if we are to realize the direction we have taken with 25w. It is a Water resist with pseudo-Burn-immunity from Toxic Orb and physically-biased offensive stats that complement its Bug-type STAB. What better mon to be U-Turner in a tier that lacks many good slow pivots, which I believe is a healthy and underutilized (by both Gamefreak and CAP) defensive role.

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?
I think our starter framework should influence our movepool. This is the first CAP starter trio and I think we should do the framework justice by adhering to as many starter precedents as possible, such as access to the moves Facade and Ice Beam, because these traditions in part define starter gameplay. Every water starter getting Ice Beam isn't just flavor; it's a competitive precedent. Each one has access to a 90 BP special move to super-effectively hit Grass- and Dragon-types, and we shouldn't dismiss that as flavor just because "water freezes into ice." If our goal is to make starters that are viable in CAP/OU, then we better make sure they are not just starters-in-name-only. It should be reflected in their movepools just like it is in their stats.

 

[Gross Sweep]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Poison Heal? Are there ways to effectively utilize Poison Heal in our movesets other than direct move interaction?

I think the stereotypical basic answers are moves like Substitute and any sort of Protect variant. Some other options that have intrigued me is a sort of pseudo trapper option meaning Whirlpool or Spider Web in conjunction with Perish Song or Toxic. This sort of set usually uses Rest, see Azumarill for example, but thanks to pheal we potentially can drop Rest running a 4th move helping us fill a niche without being to 1 dimensional. Doesn't have to run as our main set, almost preferred if it wasn't as it'll help the set, but it gives us an extra option that will stop something like Ferrothorn from just coming in and spiking on us for days. Psong is probably the better option + Whirlpool, but both routes are serviceable.

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?

I think standard defensive pivot will be an ok roll to go after. Given our stats, ability and likely access to extremely standard bulky water moves like Scald this shouldn't be hard to achieve. A second role we can go for is Trapper which will help handle stall, and bait in bulky mons that could otherwise come in on us.

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

I don't spend much time looking into starters, but if there is something like all starters, or even just water starters, across 7 generations have access to a move it would be hard for me to disagree with access.

 

[xurkitrium-z]

25w is running up against a lot of obstacles for it to be viable in CAP OU, and to that end I think rolewise, we should focus on using its good bulk and decent attacking stats to enable it to go in a variety of directions. It's already gonna be hard for 25w to cover everything its supposed to in just 4 moves, so by giving it the movepool to run a variety of sets and roles we give it the tools to pick and choose which niche on a team it'll fill and give it a way better shot at viability.

 

[hawk1113]

25w is running up against a lot of obstacles for it to be viable in CAP OU, and to that end I think rolewise, we should focus on using its good bulk and decent attacking stats to enable it to go in a variety of directions. It's already gonna be hard for 25w to cover everything its supposed to in just 4 moves, so by giving it the movepool to run a variety of sets and roles we give it the tools to pick and choose which niche on a team it'll fill and give it a way better shot at viability.

This is also a good point, and I didn't get to talk about "Protect +" moves, so let's do that now.

It's no secret that the #1 way to actualize Poison Heal is to stall for time, and the #1 way to do that is with Protect. As a universal TM we are all but assured Protect, but to make 25w really viable I think we need to aim higher and use something stronger. So let's talk about them:

King's Shield: I will be bold and name the move that shall not be named. I will do so fully admitting that in Discord, I really wanted this move and felt it was the way to make a Pokemon in danger of being C tier hyper-relevant. But ultimately, I think it's a bad idea and should not be allowed on our 'mon. King's Shield is unfun and uncompetitive, and also threatens to destroy our C&C list by crippling the few physical attackers that are theoretically supposed to be able to threaten or counter us us such as Hawlucha, 25g, Pajantom, Azumarill, Crucibelle, Tapu Bulu, and Outrage Zygarde.

Baneful Bunker: This, on the other hand, seems too weak. While we do have a powerful attacking stat to set us apart from 'Pex, regular poison is a horrible status. For sets that want to just outlast and chip down folks, Scald and Toxic are absolutely going to be be better. I fear if we decide Baneful Bunker is out Protect+ move of choice, we'll see a lot of defensive 25w's just run Protect + Toxic/Scald instead.

Spiky Shield: This move is juuuuust right, giving us the chip damage of a Rocky Helmet while also protecting us and letting us heal up without interacting poorly with our status-inducing moves. My quick run down our C&C list shows that giving ourselves this chip damage shouldn't dramatically impact our C&C list too much against physical attackers:
- Azumarill still OHKOs us with anything that hits once its at +6. It won't appreciate the 1/8 damage, but we can't KO it before it smashes us.
- Arghonaut doesn't make contact with Gunk Shot, which is its best chance of wearing us down if it chooses to stay in.
- Gyarados doesn't appreciate the damage, but we can't stop it from boosting and if we mispredict we get OHKOd by Supersonic Sky Strike.
- It might actually let us beat Hawlucha with some prior damage/Rocks up, but Hawlucha is on our pressure list and not our C&C list.
- Ferrothorn will be fine, even if we run HP: Fire for it, due to Leech Seed.

 

[Warren685]

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?
A role that would prove effective for 25w is a Bulky Set-up Sweeper. Take the move Hone Claw and pair it with moves like Mega Horn, Razor Shell, Blizzard, Hydro Pump, etc. We can give 25w more of a offensive presences on the field while still maintaining it's defensive presence thanks to Poison Heal as it provide passive healing and a immunity to status. I also support Spiky Shield for 25w to help it establish a Physical Wall set couple with Lunge and Scald to deter Physical attackers such as Pajantom, Tapu Bulu and possibly Lando-T. An interesting set to build on would be a Trapper, take the already mention Hone Claw and pair it with Fury Cutter and Infestion/Whirlpool, proceed to trap something that can't touch 25w and then boost with Hone Claw then proceed to use Fury cutter. Boosted 160 Stab will put a lot of dents into mons, resist or not

 

[Roland le preaux]

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen defensive direction?
I'd also be interested in seeing 25w fit a possible role as a check to offensive waters. With a typing that gives it decent defensive match-ups vs Keldeo, Naviathan, Bulk Up Arghonaut, Volkraken (whenever it's locked into a Water move), Swampert, and Mega Gyarados, 25w may still be lacking in ways to force some of these mons out. Especially the first three mons create an odd match-up where 25w resists both of their STABs but they also resist both of 25w's STABs. Energy Ball, Earth Power, and especially Thunderbolt are coverage moves that I think we should consider, as 80 special attack is a usable stat and special attacks would hit Naviathan and Bulk Up Arghonaut much harder than physical attacks. For example, having Thunderbolt or Earth Power means we could always 2HKO Flame Orb Naviathan after rocks and burn damage without having any investment in Special Attack. It could also prevent us from being set-up fodder for Arghonaut and Gyarados. Obviously this would be a niche set, but I agree with xurkitrium-z that some versatility could really help 25w find a teamslot, especially when it is competing in a tier full of extremely powerful Water-types.

 

[cbrevan]

We've gotten a good number of suggestions on potential moves and roles for us to pursue with CAP 25w. From our discussion, I feel comfortable going forward with moveset submissions knowing the general directions we can pursue. I'll include a short summary of moves that have been brought up to help kickstart moveset discussion and provide a general reference point for our opening discussion.

Protect and its variants (Baneful Bunker, Spiky Shield), Substitute, Dive: These have been brought up because they allow CAP 25w to stall out an additional turn of Poison Heal recovery. I'm most interested in seeing how the additional recovery enables specific strategies and if the recovery is substantial enough to warrant running these moves for it alone.

Psycho Shift, Trick: These have been brought up because they allow CAP 25w to utilize Toxic Orb after the initial status is inflicted. My biggest question in regards is if they're worth the moveslot over other options, such as Toxic.

Wish, U-turn, Leech Seed: Wish has been brought up because of its synergy with Protect + Poision Heal. I've seen a lot of people against 50% recovery on Discord but there are no posts advocating that stance in the thread; I'm interested to see how the nay side argues against it. U-turn has been brought up to allow CAP 25w the ability to function as a pivot, as well as its utility in passing Wishes. Leech Seed has been suggested several times due to its ability to stack residual damage and increase the passive healing, something that may be valuable if CAP 25w adopts a passive role. This is another instance where I'm interested in seeing how people argue for and against the additional recovery it enables.

Whirlpool, Infestation, Spider Web, Taunt, Perish Song: These moves have all been mention to allow CAP 25w the ability to stallbreak, either through trapping + residual damage, trapping + Perish Song, or general Taunt + Toxic stallbreaking. My biggest question is whether or not we want CAP 25w to be able to target and remove other defensive Pokemon as effectively.

Swords Dance, Coil, Bulk Up, Calm Mind: Boosting moves have been mentioned to allow CAP 25w to function as a wincon. Just be aware that for any boosting move, I'm going to require a comprehensive showing of damage calcs to demonstrate how these moves affect our threatlist.

Keep in mind that this is just a quick summary of the last three days of discussion, and that this list will have no bearing on what movesets are accept and moves disallowed. This is just to give people an idea of what to experiment with.

Now, onto moveset submissions. Moveset submissions are now open. Read the rest of this post before you make them. A large range of moves have been brought up, now its our job to see how they perform in a moveset. We will examine each moveset based on concept fulfillment, how it interacts with our threatlist, general balance, and if it is true to our chosen direction. By doing so, we'll be able to evaluate what movesets work, which do not, and what moves should be disallowed. To go over these factors further:

Concept will be one of our primary focuses, as it is important that we have main sets that synergize with our ability in order for us to explore our concept. The bulk of discussion up till now has been on how to achieve this.

We also need to keep in mind our decision to make CAP 25w a defensive Pokemon. These means that any submissions that overtly push CAP 25w towards an offensive direction, such as Shell Smash, will be frowned upon at best, deleted and infracted at worst.

Our third and fourth considerations will be our threatlist and overall balance. I mention these two together because they are closely related to eachother. I'll define balance for this stage as having counterplay and an appropriate number of checks and counters. If a moveset allows this CAP to run over the existing metagame, I cannot allow it. We're going to be stuck with our creations until the end of the CAP metagame, so I'll be giving overall balance an equal priority as concept fulfillment. Moreover, this definition works well because it allows us to use our threatlist as a measuring stick in deciding if a moveset puts too much of a strain on the balance of this CAP. Make sure you provide relevant damage calcs for every moveset submitted. Damage calculations are some of the best pieces of evidence you can provide when theorymonning, so don't neglect them.

On a related note, Quanyails has done us a great favor and is hosting a test server for all three CAPs at http://quanyails.asuscomm.com.psim.us
This means that for CAP 25, we'll be able to do more than blatant theorymon every moveset. I encourage everyone to get onto the server when they have time and test out any movesets submitted or planned. This server will also save replays as long as you hit the "Download Replay" button. I'm excited to see how people make use of this opportunity.

 

[Deck Knight]

Wanted to start off with a unique non-standard set I found very enjoyable.

Moveset Submission:
Name: Isolation Trapper
Move 1: Liquidation
Move 2: Spiky Shield
Move 3: Psycho Shift / Toxic
Move 4: Infestation
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 240 SpD / 4 Spe
Nature: Careful

• Liquidation is a consistent primary STAB to threaten many of the Pokemon that set up Stealth Rock or Spikes.
• Spiky Shield combines passive damage, the ability to safely trigger Toxic Orb initially, and safely get Poison Heal healing throughout the match.
• Psycho Shift operates as a Toxic that can bypass Magic Bounce and does not suffer any accuracy issues. It can also pass off random Scald Burns or Paralysis that might take effect before Toxic Orb activates. Toxic has the advantage of being useful even if Toxic Orb is knocked off, however since Spiky Shield punishes Knock Off and Infestation can ensure any Knock Off opponent can't switch out, a lot of control is in 25w's possession.
• Infestation traps opposing Pokemon for 4-5 turns and does significant passive damage. With huge bulk, immunity to status, and the ability to transfer Toxic status even through Magic Bounce, it can isolate and wear down many passive opponents easily. With a large focus on pivots that set hazards, remove hazards, or attempt Wish support, removing the ability to switch out and doing passive damage is very effective.

This set is one I stumbled on and was excellent in practice. It isolates passive Pokemon or Scarved threats that don't switch out quickly or have banked on 25w being physically defensive. Spiky Shield is a strong punish on U-turn (and physical attacks generally which this build does less well against otherwise) and forces Pokemon attempting to U-turn out to take other round of Infestation damage (total damage 37.5%). It utilizes Poison Heal in multiple ways, being able to consistently set it up, shift status, and trap opponents that simply can't outdamage two rounds of Poison Heal recovery. This set actually worked on a Scarf Tapu Lele locked into Moonblast, and it still couldn't overcome Poison Heal healing.

Is this a good role for 25w? I think it is, because it punishes more defensive playstyles, utilizes the ability extremely effectively, and is also unique. Gliscor may have Sand Tomb, but Sand Tomb has immunities. Infestation doesn't.

 

[Wenderz]

Moveset Submission

Name: Cleric
Move 1: Spiky Shield
Move 2: Wish
Move 3: U-turn / Psycho Shift / Ice Beam
Move 4: Scald
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Relaxed / Bold

• Spiky Shield allows CAP 25w to heal safely with Poison Heal and Wish. I like this one over the others because it's especially suited to punish U-Turn users like Lando-T, Syclant, Colossoil and Greninja that you typically want to deal with by using this CAP.
• Wish is your main recovery move and can be used to heal your teamates as well. With Poison Heal, CAP 25w probably won't need to heal itself every time it gets on the field so it should be a brillant user of Wish.
• U-Turn is STABed, makes CAP 25w a slot defensive pivot and pairs well with Wish. Psycho Shift (or Toxic) wears down the opponent with poison while you're recovering with Poison Heal and hiding being Spiky Shield. Ice Beam ensures that you'll be able to deal with most Zygarde effectively and hits some targets like Pajantom that could come on you without trouble otherwise.
• Scald is your main offensive STAB and can burn the opponent, which halves its Attack and inflicts residual damages.

Here are some calcs :

Hide

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Araquanid: 181-214 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Araquanid: 169-199 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Araquanid: 160-188 (41.4 - 48.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal (obviously I'm referring to CAP 25f here)
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Araquanid: 147-174 (38 - 45%) -- 45.8% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
+3 252 SpA Life Orb Syclant Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 222-263 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 149-177 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- 67.9% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

When it comes to the number of relevant threats kept in check, CAP 25w shouldn't be jealous of its main competitors: Arghonaut, Gastrodon and Toxapex. However, unlike them, it's weak to SR, which greatly affects the calcs above and shows how helpful Spiky Shield would be, and lacks the precious Fire resist that helps a ton against Volkraken and Heatran. That's why I think that whe shouldn't be afraid of being generous with CAP 25w by giving a number of relevant moves. With that being said, I'd like to share my opinion on some of them :

- Instant and reliable recovery (Recover, Slack Off...): I'm pretty neutral on them. I can see why people would fear that it would discourage to run Spiky Shield / Protect on a sample set like mine. On the other hand, I think it would be more than welcome on stallbreaker and bulky set-up sweeper variants, and if SR are in play then packing a protection move become very valuable against most things CAP 25w is supposed to check. Besides, I think that unless CAP 25w gets some important utility moves, Spiky Shield should remain a standard since I don't think that CAP 25w would be that big of a 4MSS case, at least not on a pure defensive set.

Speaking of utility moves, none of the mains bulky water in CAP (bar Rotom-W which will probably get a bit better after CAP 25f realease) get something that is very advised on every team like SR or Rapid Spin / Defog, so CAP 25w could further distinguish itself by having something like that. Hazard Control would especially fit since Fidgit, Lando-T, Syclant, Greninja and Arghonaut all are supposed to be countered by our CAP. However, it would cause a problem that I just mentionned on the previous paragraph, so I'm pretty neutral on this one too.

Finally, I'm fine with every moves listed by cbrevan bar Perish Song. While I think it could be very interesting, I can't see any Pokemon that have an as valuable defensive presence as CAP 25w and that can learn both Perish Song and a trapping move (GSC Misdreavus is an exception I guess, but this meta is filled with phazers, whereas CAP is not). I think it would be too dangerous and hard to stop, especially since most U-turn users struggle against it.

Might post another set soon.

 

[Catalisador]

Firstly, I'd like to say again: being a defensive pokemon does not mean that we have to rely on a passive strategy. That being said, I'd like to submit not one but two different movesets for CAP25w. I've already said before, if we want to make CAP25w viable despite it's competition from other bulky waters and vast list of checks and counters, we need to give it these two factors: impredictability and a unique set of roles.
Secondly, I'd like to reinforce that, to me, CAP25w is the most difficult out of the three to make a competitive pokemon due to it's extense list of checks and counters and competition from other already existing Water-types. So, to me, messing a little bit with CAP25w's threatlist (nothing major, of course) should be acceptable in order to make it have an important role in the tier.
That being said, here are the movesets I came up with:


Moveset Submission 01:

Name: Secondary Win Condition
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Calm Mind
Move 3: Taunt / Acid Armor
Move 4: Earth Power / Recover
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 8 SpA / 88 SpD / 20 Spe
Nature: Calm

• Scald is a arguably the best Water-type move. Providing STAB as well as it's ability to pressure potential switch ins with a burn, which is extremely valuable for a defensive pokemon.
• Calm Mind is our main boosting move. Being able to boost both offensively and defensively, allowing CAP25w to take on threats such as pre-Battle Bond Greninja and Choice Scarf Volkraken.
• Taunt is an extremely valuable move. It's ability to shut down walls such as Toxapex and Chansey and prevent Haze from the aforementioned Toxapex is extremely necessary for the success of our boosting set.
• Acid Armor is an option over Taunt. Providing CAP25w even more physical bulk, allowing it to setup alongside threats such as Gyarados-mega, Scizor-mega and SpDef SD Tapu Bulu.
• Recover provides CAP25w reliable recovery other than Poison Heal.
• Alternatively to Recover, Earth Power synergizes extremely well with CAP25w, as it's Ground-type coverage allows CAP25w to pressure the likes of Krillowatt and Toxapex and deal huge damage to them.

The given EV spread allows CAP25w, defensively, to:

1. Be only 3HKOed by Choice Specs pre-Battle Bond Ash Greninja's Dark Pulse after Stealth Rock;
2. Potentially setup on Mega Latios when coming at full health;
3. Switch into every pokemon on the Switch-In list;
4. Avoid, most of the time, the 3HKO from Volkraken's Choice Scarf Fire Blast;
5. Avoid the 3HKO from Choice Scarf Jumbao's Solar Beam without Stealth Rock up.

The given EV spread allows CAP25w, offensively, to 2HKO Assault Vest Magearna with +6 Earth Power.
The given EV spread allows CAP25w to outspeed non-invested base 65 pokemon.

Damage calculations:

Defensive:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 142-168 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 147-174 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 147-174 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- 49% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. +1 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 99-117 (25.7 - 30.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Poison Heal

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Golisopod: 72-84 (18.7 - 21.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Golisopod: 192-226 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

Keep in mind that max attack Choice Scarf Landorus-T is extremely rare. So here's the calc for the regular Choice Scarf Landorus-T:
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Golisopod: 160-190 (41.5 - 49.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Golisopod: 81-96 (21 - 24.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 159-187 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

252 SpA Jumbao Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 162-192 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

Offensive:

+6 8 SpA Golisopod Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 81-96 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- 33.2% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+6 8 SpA Golisopod Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 244-288 (80.5 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+6 8 SpA Golisopod Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 190-224 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 8 SpA Golisopod Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 127-150 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO



Usage tips:
CAP25w should be used as a regular defensive pokemon in the early game. Being able to switch into threats such as Zygarde, Landorus-T and pre-Battle Bond Greninja. On the late game, when the pokemon are weakened and there's potentially less counters to CAP25w, you should start setting up in the given oportunity to finish off the game.
Anti-hazard support is needed for this set to function well. Partners with Defog and Rapid Spin synergize well with CAP25w.

Explanation:
In order for CAP25w to succeed on the metagame, it should have a unique trait that differs itself from the vast set of bulky waters currently available in the CAP metagame and being able to function as a secondary win condition would give CAP25w this unique role.
Keep in mind that this set doesn't mean that we can't run a regular fully defensive strategy relying on something like SubToxic, it's just an alternative that gives CAP25w a certain level of unpredictability and makes it differentiate itself from other bulky Water-types.




Moveset Submission 02:
Name: It's a Trap!
Move 1: Spider Web
Move 2: Perish Song
Move 3: Scald / U-Turn
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
IVs: 24 Spe
Nature: Bold / Impish

• Spider Web allows CAP25w to trap foes such as Toxapex, Zygarde, Landorus-T and Fidgit.
• Perish Song was chosen over Toxic for it's ability to get rid of Steel- and Poison-type pokemon such as Celesteela, Naviathan and Ferrothorn.
• Scald, as I said before, is arguably the best Water-type move. Being able to burn foes to reduce their damage and pressure potential switch-ins such as Crucibelle-mega with it's super-effective damage and other physical attackers with it's burn chance.
• U-Turn is an option over Scald to help CAP25w's role of trapper. Sponging the last hit from the opposing attacker and U-Turning out safely to another pokemon.
• Recover provides CAP25w reliable recovery other than Poison Heal.

The given EV spread allows CAP25w to wall what it's supposed to. Plain and simple.
The given IV spread allows CAP25w to underspeed Clefable and take a potential last Moonblast before U-Turning out into another pokemon. If using Scald, however, 31 Spe IVs should be used to maximize speed.

Explanation:
A regular defensive role for CAP25w. Also provides a lot of utility for teammates, being able to potentially get rid of threats that would otherwise wall them.

 

[Dogfish44]

To people submitting Bulk Up / Calm Mind sets: Can we get a decent standard of proof that we're not going to stall out Heal Block Pajantom (BU), or stuff like Cyclohm? Or, at least, if you're supporting that, put in a decent argument as to why breaking C+C on those sort of mons in particular is balanced ^^;.

I'm also doing some pretty broad spreads here, covering a large range of moves, so if people want to use these to jump on a bandwagon against one specific move (I know I'm listing a couple of controversial options 'ere), then go right ahead.

Moveset Submissions
Name: Speed Control Pivot
Move 1: Sticky Web / Trick Room
Move 2: U-Turn / Parting Shot
Move 3: Protect
Move 4: Scald / Rapid Spin
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe (Trick Room)
Nature: Careful / Calm / Sassy (Trick Room)

• Sticky Web and Trick Room are both notable Speed Control options that 25w can set whilst surviving multiple hits, and has the bulk to manage multiple settings.
• U-Turn and Parting Shot each let 25w switch out once it's set up Room/Webs. Parting Shot allows you to pivot to your sweepers whilst protecting them somewhat, whilst U-Turn is able to deal a non-insignificant amount of damage.
• Protect lets you stall for Poison Heal time. This set can just as happily run Spiky Shield etc. of course, just avoiding the arguments there for now.
• Scald is Scald, burns are nice when compounded with our already high phyical bulk.
• Rapid Spin on a mon weak to Rocks might seem counter-productive, but the strength of natural recovery that 25w has means that much of that weakness is negated, which is synergistic.

Does what it says on the tin. Establish your team's speed control, and then get momentum from Pivoting and begin smashing holes in your opponent's team. Trick Room in particular enjoys the setter with a Ground resist.

Name: Jennifer Hudson Special (aka Ingrain/Aqua Ring)
Move 1: Ingrain / Aqua Ring
Move 2: Protect
Move 3: Toxic / Psycho Shift / Trick
Move 4: Lunge / Liquidation
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm

• Ingrain and Aqua Ring provide broadly the same benefit. Ingrain protects us from Whirlwind and allows you to lock into an endgame once you're happy you can win, whilst Aqua Ring protects us from stall battles lasting 50 turns and lets us switch out.
• Protect continues to be a pretty simple +12.5% HP, except when it's +18.75%.
• Toxic lets you wear down a majority of targets, whilst Psycho Shift exchanges an action of healing for the ability to clear Glares etc. if you accidentally get status'd before Toxic Orb. Trick exchanges the ability to status the entirety of an opponent's team for the ability to completely devastate one mon in particular, and potentially have Poison Heal + Leftovers + Ingrain up.
• Lunge has no immunities and helps stall out physical threats, whilst Liquidation's ability to lower Defense helps either force switches at that end. Pick your proverbial Poison!

And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going

This variant of 25w in the early-game acts as a defensive behemoth as per usual, and once responses are cleared, switches in, sets up it's passive healing++, and begins whittling down opponents.