CAP 27 Prevo - Part 1.5 - Stage Order

[Quanyails]

Hey all! Before we proceed with the next stage in the CAP pre-evo process, we'd like to open a 48-hour discussion on the following, followed by a 24-hour vote, if consensus has not been reached. The details of this discussion are as such:

There has been discussion on Discord about making the CAP pre-evo process more inclusive of art:

• Original discussion on May 14th
• Discussion on June 13

As CAP pre-evos are based on flavor instead of competitive value, we can take a more flavor-centric process. By deciding on an art design early, we can use that design to justify attributes such as typing or ability, instead of discussing typing or ability only being able to use what we know about the final evolution. Having a stage be based on design is something we do already for Flavor Ability in the main CAP process, so this would not require any difference in setup.

The proposal suggests changing the order of steps for the pre-evo process. Note that any change made here will apply to all future CAP pre-evo processes. If we continue the existing CAP process order, the order would be as such (abbreviated):

art submissions + abilities > stats > art poll > movepool

The alternative order proposed for the CAP pre-evo process would be:

art submissions > art poll > abilities > stats > movepool

Note that in the future, the alternative order would include typing as a stage directly after art poll.

Do you think that this ordering would lead to a more productive CAP pre-evo process? Why or why not?

If you have any further proposals on how the CAP pre-evo process should change from the regular process, feel free to post a PRC thread with these proposals!

Tagging DHR-107

 

[sun_dew]

Oh, this is here now! I saw this earlier on Discord and got a bit excited over it. Anyways, I firmly agree with the art submissions > art poll > abilities > stats > movepool order. I feel that this format fits a lot better with the more casual, flavor-based process that is the CAP prevo process, and that the current process, where the art has to conform to the abilities and stats, is more than a little arbitrary when it comes to a flavor ‘mon.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I agree that the alternative order is better.

I think it will also be helpful for the creation of the missing gen 4 caps of which there is either no information, or only some related to sprites or artwork.

 

[G-Luke]

I also agree with this method wholeheartedly. Especially in context to Astrolittle, who lacks any abilities that are traditionally absent from NFEs, we don't need to discuss art + abilities. So yes, while I was absent for the discord discussion, i think this format is the right way to go moving forward (especially for when we tackle the gen 4 babies).

 

[Bughouse]

agreed. if prevos are fundamentally meant as flavor, then a design is the best place to start.

 

[Gleeboop]

I fully agree that these prevos should start with art since they're based on flavor.

 

[MrPanda]

Not much to say here, but I'm in total accordance with the stages order's change. I don't see any way better to start a flavor oriented process than by the art stage.

 

[Quanyails]

I think that completing art before filling out the other parts of a CAP pre-evolution is reasonable, but we do have to be aware that the design might not end up fitting some of the predetermined attributes of the Pokemon we can't change. Examples:

• Kerfluffle's egg groups are Fairy and Human-Like, but the winning pre-evo design is Pluffle, which isn't bipedal. This produced weird egg group flavor we couldn't do anything about.
• If we had chosen a design for CAP 27 pre-evo and decided that its type was pure Fire or pure Dragon, we might miss how unflavorful its movepool it would be by Gen. VIII movepool design once we got to that stage.

I suppose it's no worse than the weird flavor we end up giving existing CAPmons, but if the pre-evo process is designed around flavor, we should strive to keep it as flavorful as we can based on the parent's movepool, with all of the constraints that entails.

 

[Hematite]

To be fair, breeding compatibility isn't part of the pre-evolution process in the first place - Pluffle's Egg groups are something people would have known well before the first step of the process regardless of how it was organized (and, well... if it still won even with movepool coming first, doesn't that just mean that ordering it this way isn't helping after all?).

It might be useful to lay out things like that in the first post of each step, actually: "these Egg groups are required," "the Pokémon's level-up learnset is limited to moves from this list," and anything else that isn't going to be changed by any step later on.
For example, no matter how Pluffle's movepool discussion went, it would still be in Fairy and Human-Like, and no matter how baby CAP 27's movepool discussion goes, it will still be stuck with the same level-up move options. Making that information accessible early on and drawing attention to it doesn't actually change anything about later steps - it just makes people more aware of the constraints that already exist.
I feel like this would give artists a clearer idea of what options are available from the start and how well later steps can adapt to their design choices.
As far as I can tell, most of it is pretty clear cut anyway, so I don't think it would take much discussion to put something like this together.

In any case, the existence of these constraints is no reason to run the other steps as soon as possible - the other steps don't give us any control over them anyway.
I think our focus should be on these two principles:

1) leaving room for as much as possible to be adapted to the design, and​

2) establishing as soon and as clearly as possible what can't be adapted.​

Both of these are contradicted by our current order - opening art submissions before deciding anything about the other steps fails to communicate the constraints the artists will actually have, and not voting on art until almost everything else is decided means not adapting anything at all to the design that people want.

What we have currently just feels detached and mechanical - it's a Pokémon that won't be used competitively, but we do all of the "competitive" steps before we decide on any flavor; it's a Pokémon that exists only for flavor, but we wait to establish that flavor until the very end.
I would be very happy to see a revised process like the one in the OP; I can't really think of any way to justify the one we have right now.

 

[Gleeboop]

I disagree with this statement. However, if your process does get accepted, I think the requirements should be really generic and bare-minimum so the artists have more freedom. For example, if you require fire lash, it'll have to have some sort of thing to lash. I think that, if you give it a design constraint, it should be something such as a claw move or something that seems like a necessity in terms of design. In general, I think this project should mainly focus on flavor with, as you said, a bit of non-flavor thought. One more thing, its whole movepool is already part of Astrolotl's movepool, so the movepool phase is already "Which moves fit the prevo best?" which works better if there is already a design.

 

[Pipotchi]

I disagree with this statement. However, if your process does get accepted, I think the requirements should be really generic and bare-minimum so the artists have more freedom. For example, if you require fire lash, it'll have to have some sort of thing to lash. I think that, if you give it a design constraint, it should be something such as a claw move or something that seems like a necessity in terms of design. In general, I think this project should mainly focus on flavor with, as you said, a bit of non-flavor thought. One more thing, its whole movepool is already part of Astrolotl's movepool, so the movepool phase is already "Which moves fit the prevo best?" which works better if there is already a design.

think about the current art poll, which happens after ability and stats. there is no requirement for the main art to match, for instance, "comatose" that a cap got in the ability stage, or look bulky to match a base 130 defense stat. however all voters are expected to vote responsibly and thats the backbone of having a poll, and this has held true for every single art poll ive seen since joining- the result has always been considerate of our stats, projected movepool and typing, and i have no reason to believe that an unreasonable design would ever win an art poll. the idea presented here allows for proof through demonstration, and if the design doesnt provide a convincing route to stray from a logical path (for instance, having the same typing as the evo) then it just wont win.
(i know you agree for the format change, i just want to contest the point of needing any list of requirements to submissions, as well as for people who feel worried that art first might go off the rails with totally flavour-contrasting submissions with stupid typings)

i obviously fully support the change in format!

 

[DHR-107]

I understand from the above posts that this will still all be happening after the Typing stage?

I was under the impression that people wanted art directly first before anything else was decided.

I have been trying to get the Art threads up earlier in the submissions phase for a few caps anyway as I know you guys like having as much time as possible on them. I don't really like the amount of "dead air" while Art is going on where nothing can be decided with this method, but if it means we get more/better art then I can't really argue against it.

Typing -> Art Opens -> Art Closes -> Dex Opens -> Abilities -> Stats -> Movepool -> Dex Closes would likely be the best way of going forwards.

I really don't like the idea of having to fit Typing to Artwork. I think that's just backwards. Typing should always come first. It gives artists more information for a touch of refinement, and gives us an idea of how we want to shape the Prevo from that point onwards.

 

[Quanyails]

Modpost:

The consensus is clear that we want to complete art before the other stages of this particular CAP pre-evo, so we'll open up CAP 27 pre-evo art to keep the process moving. As there is further interest in determining stage order, we will keep this thread open for further discussion.

 

[Bughouse]

I agree typing before art makes sense, and when I said art first I did mean typing then art. I kinda just assumed that was already the plan that typing would stay first since typing had been determined prior to the posting of this thread asking about subsequent stages.

 

[Pipotchi]

The whole initial conversation/reason the thread got brought up was about art before typing because really that is the most impactful non-flavour stage that affects flavour. for prevos, stats are usually so middling/similar that any art can be justified and abilities are generic (at least looking at past examples). for this process, it seems typing has already been decided and there's only one viable route, but for future caps we should do art before typing

 

[Reiga]

I don't have much to say but I very much agree that art should be the first stage, before typing and all. It's a flavor step first and foremost so having ability and stats be something affected by art but not typing just seems like a really askew double standard, like you might as well go all out. As an artist I can testify that not having a set typing is actually incredibly gratifying, and in a case like this where I'm not forced to design things for this but rather do it out of my own accord, having less restrictions is always better, when it's purely about flavor.

 

[Quanyails]

If we make art the first stage of the CAP pre-evo process, we could potentially open it right after the design for the final evolution is decided (edit: after we decide # of pre-evos). There wouldn't be any "dead air" while pre-evo art is pending, since it'd be run parallel to the other parts of the CAP process. I still imagine that the other pre-evo stages after art would occur after the main CAP process is completely done.

Some benefits to opening pre-evo art to right after final-evo art is decided includes:

• This lets artists post their submissions on the forums, instead of the designs floating around Discord for several weeks, and having to track down each person's submissions in the #flavor channel history (or me otherwise setting up a Google Doc with everyone's art). :P This is also the reason we open the art thread for the main CAP process right after typing, since it's a way to keep all of the art in one place instead of people sharing it through other venues anyway.
• This lets movepool makers take into account pre-evo artists' WIPs when deciding where moves should go. For example, if people see Astrolotl pre-evo designs that don't have claws, maybe people wouldn't want to give Astrolotl Dragon Claw in its level-up movepool. This can lead to matching flavor for both the final evolution and the pre-evo, and this would resolve the warning I gave here about mismatching flavor from the final evo's movepool imposing restrictions on the pre-evo.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I want to echo support for Quany's suggestion. I think its also one of the most elegant ways to solve the problem of Gen 8 level up movepool changes potentially limiting the type / flavour of the prevolution.

If the art poll is even somehow wrapped up before the final movepool poll it could be even smoother and allow tweaks to movepools to remove flavour moves that don't fit on the prevo, or conversely, adding moves that could feasibly be in the level up pool, or to indicate a fitting evolution method.

 

[Sunfished]

Because I was a part of this initial conversation, I'll throw my two cents in.

TLDR; Art first is extremely preferrable. I think it's very clear that all artists agree with this.

I really don't like the idea of having to fit Typing to Artwork. I think that's just backwards. Typing should always come first. It gives artists more information for a touch of refinement, and gives us an idea of how we want to shape the Prevo from that point onwards.

I think the big problem with this argument is that it's only seen as backwards if you're still thinking artists wanting this information should outweigh the people that don't want it. And even then, the suggestion of Art > Types doesn't HINDER anyone. If CAP wants to improve, then we should take the steps necessary to improve it, especially in ways that doesn't hurt anyone. Here's the one part of the argument I want to pick apart:

"Artists want information first"

Obviously. The information we have is already given to us at the beginning of the process: it's supposed to be a design that fits as the prevo of the CAP. That is the only thing an artist needs. That is the goal of what this whole stage is about. Do they want more? Probably, but adding any more constraints now forces artists that would like freedom to be stuck with those that want more information.

Let's look at both situations:

1. Typing goes first
Realistically, only one out of possibly a few options will be chosen, and must be reflected in art. Artists that had a good design may no longer fit it because conceptually, it doesn't work with the type presented. Can they change it? Of course, and lose any semblance of direction with the concept they had with the initial typing because the one that won doesn't fit. "Then make it fit". Yes, I will make a design that is heavily influenced by many aspects to be carried over to one that is anti-concept to it.

2. Art goes first
"I want to make mine look like a pure fire type". cool. go for it.
"I want mine to be fire/dragon". cool. go for it.
Let's say the first one won but it doesn't look like a pure fire type. Does the artist lose? No. Does any part of the creativity get lost? No. It just doesn't look like a pure fire type, and whatever the majority sees as the typing it is wins.

For a process that is almost completely flavorful, why should we limit the creativity of artists that would like the freedom? Why should we force them to adhere to stages that are much more fluid compared to art?

I know I posted this very late, and there's a lot more I want to say, but I'm just finding it very hard to see any negatives regarding this change. I fully support the idea that art should go first, and have everything afterwards be relatively molded around the design. As process that is almost entirely flavorful, we shouldn't have to follow the same principles that the regular process is about.

 

[Falchion]

I don't have much time tonight to respond in depth, but the tl;dr version of the percentage of my chaotic thoughts right now that are relevant to this topic is that I am in favor of the art stage going first. This would provide activity alongside the rest of the planning stages for the fully evolved form that will allow us to fast-track the process of designing all stages of the evolutionary line. That said, I would also like to suggest not having the art poll for the pre-evolution(s) occur until after the finalization of all aspects of the final stage, because any changes that may happen with the final form before then may end up forcing changes to the pre-evolutions to fit it, and any artists may need the time to accommodate such changes if they turn out to be drastic enough to warrant do-overs - it's probably not a common occurrence, all things considered, but you never know.

 

[Agile Turtle]

I think going for more freedom for art in this process is ideal, and while I don't see setting typing first being that restrictive, I just don't see a reason to set it at all before deciding on what we want the thing to look like. And I don't see the argument for typing going before artwork to aid artists, there's already final stage artwork (and final stage typing) to help inspire.