CAP 28 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Quanyails]

CAP 28 So Far

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Please pay very close attention to -Voltage-'s posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Secondary Ability banlist

Air Lock
Arena Trap
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Gorilla Tactics
Gulp Missile
Huge Power
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Ice Scales
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Libero
Mimicry
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Beast Boost
Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Spit
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Steam Engine
Triage

Ball Fetch
Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy

 

[Voltage]

Howdy fellow CAP-ers! Now that we've wrapped up the stats stage with Amamama's spread winning it, I'm back to help us get moving along with the secondary ability stage. We've already had discussion about which abilities we believe would be beneficial on CAP28, as the vote ultimately granting CAP28Neutralizing Gas as its primary ability. Now comes the part of the process where we have a few more questions about abilities we need to address.

Given the new stat line of 85 HP / 135 Atk / 60 Def / 115 SpA / 85 SpD / 89 Spe, would a second competitive ability help CAP28 accomplish its goals of being a "roadblock"? Since we decided on Neutralizing Gas before stats per the general CAP process, we can now go back and examine what other options, if any, may be useful for CPA28. Therefore, if CAP28 would benefit from a secondary ability, which abilities from the Secondary Ability List would help CAP28 further?

Lastly, are there any additional matchups we can better address with a secondary ability? Just remember to only be working from the abilities not on secondary ability banlist, and that our secondary ability (should we choose to have one) should not overshadow our primary ability, Neutralizing Gas.

I'll leave discussion open again for about a week before creating a slate. Please note that posting an ability here will more or less act as an ability "submission" given that we've already gone into deep discussion on which abilities would work in general. As Quany said before, please don't just go about posting big ol' lists of abilities without much thought. Per some comments, I'll do my best to be more active in dropping my thoughts on certain submissions and discussions going on!

And with that, let's dive back into abilities!

 

[dex]

I want to start my post out with talking about what Neutralizing Gas does well and what it doesn't. CAP28's primary ability is defensive in nature, aimed primarily at blocking the recovery from Regenerator mons , , and . However, I still think that CAP28 could run into some issues in dealing with some of the offensive pivots of the tier, especially ones that carry Knock Off. Since we now have a Speed and Offenses to go off of, we know that , , , and to name a few are going to be tough, pivoting matchups that either resist or can withstand strong physical Bug STAB that'll be clicked on a switching out. I'm going to suggest an offensive ability that will help deal with that problem.

Download
I talked a lot about why Download is concept relevant in the primary ability discussion. It seriously improves our offenses, and heavily threatens whatever switches in to. It also seriously improves the matchup into , punishing it by boosting CAP28's already ludicrous physical attack. Download also makes mixed sets more viable, which are definitely an option given CAP28's offenses. Additionally, since CAP28 will most likely be running HDB, this gives it the power of a choice item without taking nasty SR damage. Download presents a different, more offensive way of punishing pivots, giving CAP28 a different set of Pokemon that it matches well into, while improving it's matchup into some that it's already good against.

 

[Astra]

Would a second competitive ability help CAP28 accomplish its goals of being a "roadblock"?
Absolutely. I'm probably part of the minority here, but I don't think having only Neutralizing Gas as an ability really fulfills CAP28 goals at preventing, stopping, and punishing pivoting. While Neutralizing Gas does kind of punish pivoting by preventing health restoration from Regenerator, it won't actually stop the pivoting strategy itself and would most likely cause CAP28 to be forced out due to the pivot bringing a check or counter in. It's not like an opposing Slowbro or Slowking will ever be able to get its health back from Regenerator against CAP28, either; it can very easily be played around with other forms of pivoting, forcing plays, and even predictions. Therefore, I think CAP28 should have a secondary ability that either immediately punishes the foe from pivoting against it or outright prevents pivoting. Would this go against its original goal of stopping Slowbro and Slowking? Yes, but why focus on only them? The original concept referred to pivoting in general, so I believe their should be a way for CAP28 to reliably discourage pivots that use U-turn or Volt Switch from doing their jobs.

Which abilities from the Secondary Ability List would help CAP28 further?
Rough Skin and Iron Barbs come to mind when I think about immediately punishing pivots that utilize U-turn, though either of these abilities alongside Neutralizing Gas can make for a very power pair of abilities. I wouldn't worry about this being a situation like Equilibra, though, since Neutralizing Gas is announced once the Pokemon with it switches in immediately.

Volt Absorb, Motor Drive, and Lightning Rod could all be potential candidates for a secondary ability, allowing CAP28 to completely stop pivoting strategies at all from Volt Switch users. It definitely isn't as powerful as Neutralizing Gas, especially since CAP28 already resists Electric-type moves, but most Volt Switch users can honestly Volt Switch freely without worrying about CAP28 much, which kind of goes against its original concept of discouraging pivoting strategies. Additionally, depending on what ability we go with here, CAP28 can be a very great punish to pivoting with Volt Switch; Volt Absorb takes a more bulky approach and can really help CAP28 gain back HP needed to keep doing its job, while Motor Drive and Lightning Rod allows CAP28 to be more aggressive and can potentially help punish Volt Switch users by setting itself up to sweep. You can call it lazy, making CAP28 straight up immune to a certain pivoting move, but I honestly think this could be a unique approach to it, since at least the opponent has to worry about the potentially incredibly consequences of hitting it with Volt Switch.

I know this goes literally goes against everything I said in the beginning, but I just want to make the exception. Natural Cure can take on a more passive approach to helping CAP28 halt pivoting strategies. I know this ability isn't like the other abilities listed in that it doesn't actively punish the foe from using a pivoting move, but I believe it falls under the category of stopping pivoting strategies that rely on inflicting status like Toxic. Keeping its sustainability up while wearing down opposing pivots can potentially go for a long way and open up a lot more options for partners to CAP28 like Steel-types to stop Toxic and Electric-types to stop paralysis. This is perhaps an oddly unique way of looking at it, but I just wanted to make that point.

Are there any additional matchups we can better address with a secondary ability?
I only really want to point out how Volt Absorb, Motor Drive, and Lightning Rod can all improve CAP28's matchup versus Rotom-H, Rotom-W, and Zeraora. They don't really care too much about Neutralizing Gas (unless CAP28 happens to have a Ground-type move against Rotom-H or Rotom-W), so having an ability that can straight up stop their pivoting method can make CAP28's job at handling them so much easier.

 

[ImperialGamer517]

Which abilities from the Secondary Ability List would help CAP28 further?

I’m in support of Estronic here. Iron Barbs and Rough Skin are two good “road blocking” abilities. Neutralizing Gas still doesn’t have a way to punish U-turn and Flip Turn users, so Iron Barbs and Rough Skin would be two good candidates.

 

[Jewvia]

> Would a second competitive ability help CAP28 accomplish its goals of being a "roadblock"?

Yes. Neutralizing Gas is a powerful ability in its own right, and it does its job really well. However with just NGas, the opponent will always know that their Regen will not trigger and can play around that. Having a second competitive ability to deal with a second target that NGas does not exactly deal with to make the opponent question not just if they want to switch to a pivot, but also if they even want to use certain moves out of fear that CAP 28 will switch in and punish them. By this, I mean we are not punishing a lot of pivot moves directly. We have our resistances to minimize damage we take, but there is nothing stopping them from just pushing Volt Switch or U-Turn when they expect us to swap to 28, do a little chip damage, and then swap to a Pokemon that will help them keep momentum against 28. In other words, if Neutralizing Gas was taken to help us scare the passive teleporters, our secondary ability should be helping us scare away the more active approaches that enemy pivots can take.

> Which abilities from the Secondary Ability List would help CAP28 further?

When it comes to trying to threaten the opponent by making them reconsider pressing a button, I can think of 3 big ways of handling it.

1) Anti-Contact Abilities - Abilities that make the opponent question whether or not they want to push that button because they might end up hurting themselves more than they hurt their opposition. Effect Spore or Poison Point, etc. Things that punish the opponent for using the contact move when we switch in. This makes opponents not just question whether they should be using certain moves to attack, but it also helps us greatly against Knock Off, which is going to hurt a lot with our 60 defense.

2) Immunity - We can take an ability that gives us an extra immunity. The most on-concept choice here would be Electric immunity via Lightning Rod or Motor Drive which lets us take the Volt Switch and then heal or boost a stat that will give us some solid momentum to fight back with. There is also the option of taking Water resistance with its whole slew of abilities to try and hit Flip Turn/Scald/Common water moves. However, I feel this is less useful than the Electric immunity given our targets. We already have the primary ability that hurts the Slows plenty, but NGas is less potent on most of the Volt Switchers. Krilowatt takes some Life Orb damage, Rotom becomes weak to ground coverage (which isn't guaranteed,) and Zeraora laughs at us. Going for an electric immunity is nice, but it is also extremely limited to just "I hate Volt Switchers."

3) Rattled - I saved my personal favourite for last. Our biggest threat on most of our switch ins is getting hit by a 1.5x Knock Off and losing our HDB or something like that. While Anti-Contact abilities do impact Knock Off, Rattled boosts our speed much like Motor Drive, but it doesn't give us an immunity. Instead, it covers a wider variety of common typings among our targets. Other than Knock Off, this also gives us a speed boost when an opponent hits us with a U-Turn, giving us the advantage even after they pivot to a different Pokemon. For example, with our 89 speed, a lot of Dragons that would normally threaten us such as , , and become a lot riskier since we suddenly outspeed them. Hydreigon and Pajantom also don't really care too much about NGas either, making this two more Pokemon that we would scare. Outside of speedsters with 134+ speed, we have quite a bit of room to outspeed a lot of threats that would normally be outspeeding us.

> Are there any additional matchups we can better address with a secondary ability?

Anti-Contact abilities such as Effect Spore or Poison Point help us out with a lot of physical attackers, scarring them with a hard to remove status effect. With Electric Immunity from Motor Drive or Lightning Rod, a lot of Volt Switch matchups move to incredibly favourable matchups for us. Rattled gives us a nice speed boost based off of a super popular coverage threat in Knock Off as well as the extremely popular U-Turn. These make opponents reconsider if its worth the type and makes the matchups a little more solid.

And ultimately, with NGas + one of these abilities, the opponent will be hesitating as they try to guess which anti-pivot tech is being taken. Is it safe to U-Turn out, or is this just going to summon an even more threatening foe? The guessing game targeted towards these common pivot moves will reduce the opponent's willingness to use the button, making 28 an extremely powerful option sitting on the bench.

 

[G-Luke]

I don't get why people are on the "punish U-turn" strat, especially after our Stats have been released. The most common users of U-turn rn are Urshifu, Dragapult and Syclant. We have no business trying to switch in on Dragapult and Syclant anyways, which leaves us with Urshifu, who does this with U-turn

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP 28: 173-204 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (173, 175, 177, 179, 181, 183, 185, 187, 189, 191, 193, 195, 197, 199, 201, 204)

Urshifu may lose some health from IBarbs, but in return your CAP 28 loses momentum and has lost over 50% of its HP.

We neither have the typing nor the bulk to "punish U-Turn", do dedicating an ability just to do that is definitely a waste of time imo

 

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

Some things to consider are that if we do get two abilities, we have until CAP28 switches in to hide the ability as well (Neutralizing Gas revealed as soon as you get in), so our ability cannot rely on the opponent not knowing the ability.

Another thing is that CAP28 will probably switch in and out multiple times during a game, otherwise how else would it pressure pivots? For this reason, I dislike one-trick abilities such as Rattled being activated by Knock Off, as you lose HDB or any item for the rest of the match in exchange for speed, which you might be forced out by a non-focused bulky mon.

Also, what will happen if a pivot uses the pivot move the turn CAP28 comes in? Sure, a regenerator mom won't heal 33% HP, but then we will be forced out by a bulky or offensive mon coming in that we were supposed to pressure.

I don't know how to solve these, I'd just like to leave this as for thought

 

[Amamama]

would a second competitive ability help CAP28 accomplish its goals of being a "roadblock"?

I think there definitely are abilities, that can widen the scope of what we can do with 28, to work against pivoting.
While neutralizing gas offers a unique niche in denying abilities, that make pivoting easier, like Regenerator, Natural Cure and Intimidate, it still needs us to play along with the pivots, coming in several times a game to actualize its effect.
I think an ability, that boosts our immediate strength or helps us take advantage of the „passive“ Nature of pivoting, would be best suited as secondary ability.

which abilities from the Secondary Ability List would help CAP28 further?

Addressing Burn still has merit, even if I’d much rather have an offensive ability.
While I preferred Storm drain over shield dust for the primary ability, I think it would have been better with more balanced attacking stats.
Now I think shield dust offers more benefits for entirely physical sets.

For offensive abilities I’d rather have an ability that gives us more situational or constrained benefits, than blanket boosting our power.
I believe, that abilities like Download or Adaptability will deplete our power budget and interfere with possibilities in moves such as strong set up or recovery, that as well Neutralizing Gas as our Special offenses would really benefit of.
Instead abilities like Competitive, Defiant, Punk Rock, Berserk, Rattled or Weak armor could enhance our Offensive presence without wasting our power budget for moves.

Let my Continue by addressing the pro active/defensive contact abilities:

We neither have the typing nor the bulk to "punish U-Turn", do dedicating an ability just to do that is definitely a waste of time imo

This is completely true.
We will not be able to punish any contact hit much with our physical bulk. Imagine trying to chip down Urshifu with iron barbs when it kills u in two hits or wanting to punish Toxapexs Knock off with rough skin, when it just regen heals that damage off.
The only contact punishing abilities I see merit in, are either those that give us a relative speed boost (weak Armor, Rattled, Static) or flame body, because they can patch up our matchups against some more offensively oriented mons, by letting us outspeed them or crippling them with status.
I think Static and Flame body are still too situational on a Pokémon with our bulk (I guess Volcarona can benefit of Flame Body, but it also has Quiver dance), while
Weak armor and Rattled can give us a boost, but of these Rattled feels more suited to our concept and a +1 Speed boost can be very threatening already with our offenses.
Thus, i support Rattled.

The electric immunities have some merit in targeting Volt switch.
Of these three Motor Drive seems best, for our current build.
Since we already threaten the slower volt switch users with the Power of our Potent attacking stats, I think the speed boost from Motor drive seems better at creating an imminent threat against and .

are there any additional matchups we can better address with a secondary ability?

More to come

 

[Dogfish44]

One of the key issues I'm seeing at the moment is reliability - such is always the case when one of the primary STAB options to fulfil our conceptual requirements sits at just 80% accuracy.

To wit, in order for us to OHKO a Slowking with Megahorn, we have to both switch in against a potential Scald and dodge a Burn, and then we'd need to land a move that's 80% accurate. That's perfectly feasible, but the odds are a tiny bit shaky (and the evens are a nervous wreck) - especially if we're expecting to switch in multiple times in a match. Negating either Burns (Guts comes to mind, as does Shield Dust) or misses (Compound Eyes is the boring option here) improves reliability, which helps across the board.

I don't see too much value in trying to Roadblock against U-Turn, but blocking out Volt Switches from the likes of Krilowatt and Zeraora would definitely make us a roadblock - and I suspect a specific niche like that would be useful for teams currently struggling against Volt Switch spam. I'll second the notion that Motor Drive is the most interesting of the options to do this.

Finally, I think there is still potential in looking at the abilities which explicitly punish 'hard' switches, as we don't have any measures to do this beyond 'reducing benefit', and whilst that still has a lot of usefulness I think punishing the switchin moreso is an interesting avenue to explore.

 

[shnowshner]

I'm echoing what Dogfish said about reliability, it's a lot harder to fulfill our concept when most of our targets have ways to severely cripple us. I feel Guts raises our power level too high and may overshadow NGas sets in favor of maximizing damage output, so I'd be much more comfortable with other anti-status abilities like Water immunities for Scald, Shield Dust, or Natural Cure.

Something I haven't seen discussed yet is Quick Feet. Causing Status to raise our average Speed to serious levels is extremely valuable, especially as a Pokemon that can go mixed. Attempts to weaken 28 with a Burn or Toxic may result in negating one of its biggest flaws. The only other Pokemon with this ability and high Special Attack is Jolteon, and I think that says enough about how underexplored this ability is (especially since Jolteon is so fast to begin with). It adds another layer of uncertainty and stress to Pokemon looking to status something as we switch: going for Scald could be problematic if we get burned and are a Special Attacking QF set, but not going for Scald can give a ton of mileage to a Physical NG set, and that's just one scenario.

Accuracy is crucial as well. Megahorn, our strongest Bug STAB possible, isn't a terribly accurate move to be spamming, nor is Draco Meteor fully accurate, a move which would be the crux of our Special sets. Not to mention various other moves which our typing could have access to which lack perfect accuracy. Compound Eyes is pretty obvious in that regard, but I'm a bigger fan of No Guard. Although it provides a similar effect while also making us more vulnerable to strong, inaccurate moves, it enables some options which Compound Eyes does not, as any move under 80% accuracy (or 77% if you're specific) is not 100% accurate. There are a slew of moves that could be extremely beneficial to being an anti-pivot below this threshold, as well as generally useful moves our typing would appreciate, though we'd need to be careful to not give it anything too strong or beyond the realms of being a roadblock.

 

[escarlata]

Would a second competitive ability help CAP28 accomplish its goals of being a "roadblock"?
I think second competitive ability is not just helpful, but borderline mandatory for CAP28 to be able to accomplish its goal. While Neutralising Gas does prevent our main targets from being able to heal (HP or status) from pivoting out, having Neutralising Gas just makes CAP28's gameplan too easy to read and punish.

Which abilities from the Secondary Ability List would help CAP28 further?
Corruption brought up a very good point that whether or not CAP28 has Neutralising Gas is self-revealing, which means if our secondary ability cannot threaten our targeted pivots, they will know immediately and we are no longer reliably switch-ins. Because of this, I think our secondary ability should double down on the same group of targets. The opponent should not be allowed to freely bring Slowking in and out just because they know we don't have Neutralising Gas.

Going down this line of thought, I'd like to bring up Guts and Flare Boost again. It may not be fitting as a primary ability, but it's a really good complement to Neutralising Gas as a secondary ability. Guts may not prevent Slowking and Toxapex from switching out, but it does prevent them from coming in liberally, since CAP28 can switch into them more freely. Spamming Scald is obviously punished, and Knock Off does next to nothing once we have our Flame Orb activated. The damage boost also makes it harder for the opponent to just hard-switch into something bulky.

 

[petrie911]

While on the topic of status blocking abilities, Poison Heal could be a good option, making CAP28 immune to status and not concerned about Knock Off. The healing also helps manage entry hazard and chip damage CAP28 will take when switching in.

 

[BitBitio]

Something I'm interested in now knowing the stat spread is Download. This has already been brought up and I just want to show my support for it as it allows us to be very difficult to just pivot around not that we know just how hard CAP28 hits.

 

[dex]

This has been mentioned previously, but abilities like Guts, Quick Feet, Flare Boost, and Poison Heal necessitate an item other than HDB and, in the case of the first three, entail a lot of chip on top of rocks. I could see Poison Heal working (though I don’t see its concept-relevance), but the others will ensure CAP28 is worn down too quickly to have enough of an impact on the game, even with boosted Leech Life potentially at its disposal. There are other offensively oriented abilities that accomplish similar things without causing CAP28 to lose a ton of longevity, which is pretty important for an anti-pivot.

 

[quziel]

Guts, Flare Boost, and Poison Heal all have a clear and present drawback; as shown in the case of Snaelstrom, a mon that has to come in multiple times a game (we absolutely do) that is relatively easy to force out (we are), and is SR weak really does not make much use out of an item that precludes Heavy Duty Boots.
/
Sticky Hold appears useful at first glance, but our physical frailty means that we really do not want to be taking Knock Offs. Zeraora, the weakest offensive user of the move, deals 46.3 - 54.6% to us, cleanly 2hkoing with Knock given even minuscule chip (see Volt Switch). Because of this physical frailty Sticky Hold is not really an ability we can use effectively.
/
For different reasons any ability such as Rough Skin, Effect Spore, or Static is also a bad choice for us. We have 80/60 Bulk, this is not the kind of bulk that punishes U-turn, its the kind of bulk that gets 2hko'd by U-turn. Because of this physical frailty we are in no place to effectively answer U-Turn spam, thus these contact-based abilities are effectively the same as NCA.
/
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It should be noted that Neutralizing Gas excels in the long game; the longer the game goes on, the more Regenerates we deny, the more Intimidates we deny the higher its value. I think there are some abilities that could excel to the same extent (Regenerator itself, Magic Guard), but they're banned. As such I think we should focus on the short game as much as possible, by choosing an ability that provides an intense offensive boost, or makes it so that we can come in on Slowking for 100% free. Or, we choose an ability that expands our list of targets.

To reiterate; I think any secondary ability here should answer the question (in the teambuilder) of "Why am I running this instead of Neutralizing Gas" given the high power level of NGas itself. There's plenty of good abilities out there, but many of them simply don't provide enough of an impact, or a focused enough impact to ever really get used over NGas.

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Burn Mitigation:

In the short term the biggest threat that Slowking poses to us now is Scald Burns. This can be mitigated by a water immunity, a direct immunity to these burns, or an ability that makes the special set (on the off-foot thanks to 130 vs 115) competitive with the physical.
/
Storm Drain is something that was brought up during the primary ability stage that is still incredibly relevant. We have the stats to make use of every single component of the ability, from the water immunity granting us Burn-proof Leech Lifes, to the SpA boost being incredibly relevant to our 115 SpA. If we want this mon to make a huge impact in the short term, this ability lets us do so with even one correct read. Def geared to mixed or special sets though.
/
Sheer Force is a weird option, but directly targets our strongest Bug Stab in Bug Buzz, potentially boosts coverage moves, and honestly, is something we can easily target to affect the special side, or limited physical attacks only, providing meaningful set diversity. This is nice. Punk Rock is in the same vein, affecting Bug Buzz just as much, and has a far more limited list of targets, meaning we'd have a load more freedom in movepool if chosen. One small upside it has over Sheer Force is that it doesn't "require" a Life Orb, not that Sheer Force really does. Both of these abilities are very interesting ones that could allow for a physical Ngas set and a special non-Ngas set.
/
Shield Dust is the weakest here, and honestly, I think its weak enough that it wouldn't see use over NGas basically ever. Realistically its way easier to just run NGas 28 + Slowking and get it in that way instead of running Shield Dust 28. Failing that you just run Ngas + Heal bell. The lack of impact compared to even Storm Drain means that I doubt it would see use.
/
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Short Game

Download has been mentioned a bit here, and while its def relevant, and would def boost the short game, it does worry me a tad; +1 attack for free on a mon with 130 attack is a good way to break well, basically everything. Yeah, it sorta forces mixed, but like +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Equilibra: 199-234 (48.7 - 57.3%) its ridiculously strong. I could see this working, but its a very strong option and we'd have to strongly curtail a lot of movepool options to ensure balance just cause of that potential nuking power.
/
Compound Eyes is an ability I sorta like because it makes a lot of cool options workable, but I do worry about like, what reasonable options it actually effects. Taking Megahorn from 85% to 100% is nice, but its not something you're gonna ever run over Neutralizing Gas, taking Dragon Rush from 75% to 97.5% is nice, but its not something you're gonna ever run over Neutralizing Gas. So basically, I just sorta wonder, will we get even a single option that justifies use over Neutralizing Gas?
/
Competitive and Defiant are very nice options that give us a clear niche over Ngas (beating up Defog), play for the short game, and thanks to punishing Defog indirectly punish Pivoting spam. I like these, though the meta is very Rapid Spin centric atm, which makes the feasibility of this option a bit iffy. Potentially punishes Astro a bit? but like at -1 def Astro beats us, so not really.
/
Rattled is also cool, and underused, but has similar issues to the contact abilities; while we can take 1 U-turn or Knock, we only take 1, and a one time use ability that gives +1 speed is nice, but isn't amazing.

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Expanding List:

Motor Drive is the only electric immunity that I think actually makes pivots think twice about clicking Volt Switch, as its the only one that makes us able to really threaten Zeraora and Krilowatt. For that reason I support this ability. I think there could be minor worries about it being OP, but like, if this mon is broken at +1 speed then we got other things to worry about. I consider this a high power but useful option that meaningfully expands the list of strats we check.
/
Thick Fat is a bit of a silly option and may give the artists a stroke, but it meaningfully expands the list of mons we can check to include standard Astrolotl (the mon doesn't run Dclaw), Rotom-Heat (all the time), Krilowatt (all the time), and Volcarona. If you notice, that list, barring Volc, is entirely made of pivots, and because this ability directly targets a list of pivots that we otherwise don't answer all that well, I think its legitimately a really good option here.

Edit: I'm fully on the Thick Fat Train:

Thick Fat targets a specific set of pivots that I think we'd love to answer but currently cannot. Astrolotl, Krilowatt, and Rotom-Heat. It offers limited, but still useful utility against others including Volcarona and Smokomodo. Despite giving a significant boost vs Ice-type moves, we still die to Icicle Crash from Syclant. Because it offers a vastly improved matchup against a set of faster pivots, I think its a very relevant tech option that provides a meaningful contrast to the more offensively-inclined Neutralizing Gas.

vs Astrolotl (Pivot):

2x0 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Yanmega: 174-205 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
2x252 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Yanmega: 217-256 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs Krilowatt (Pivot):
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Yanmega: 109-130 (35 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

vs Rotom-Heat (Pivot):
+2 8 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Yanmega: 168-198 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs Syclant (Pivot):
252 Atk Choice Band Syclant Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Yanmega: 290-344 (93.2 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

With Neutralizing Gas being the key and staple part to halting Regenerator Pivot switching, as well as stopping Intimidates, I'm not really sure what other aspects we could want to target for the "roadblock" archetype, especially given we lack anything remotely approaching reasonable bulk.

I'm going to make a suggestion for Skill Link. We already have a low physical threshold, so Scale Shot's defense drop shouldn't prove too much to be an issue. A Jolly Nature allows +1 CAP28 to outspeed Zeraora and Dragapult switch-ins which is usually going to be running HDB's; and if it doesn't. This also empowers possible coverage moves we have. Meanwhile, Pin Missile can OHKO Slowbro with Choice Band, and even without it, puts a nasty dent in Slowbro, but still 2HKO's Blissey.

252 Atk Yanmega Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora: 270-320 (85.1 - 100.9%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Yanmega Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 300-360 (76.1 - 91.3%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Yanmega Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 430-520 (109.1 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It gives you a decent amount of control over the battle field as well; 2HKO on Slowbro AFTER Regenerator, WITHOUT a Band is basically a forced hard switch for the Slowbro, which means that you can always get the space needed to get your +1 Speed, unless the opponent switches in a fairy. How capable we are at dealing with Fairies and other STAB resistant walls is still dependent on coverage, so it's not insane.

Managing the other boosting moves and coverage options that CAP28 has access to will create those gaps that the opponent can exploit, but also provide plenty of alarm bells should the opponent misplay.

Edit; to say also that Choice Band calc's are balanced by Stealth Rock weakness not playing nicely without HDB's.

 

[Dece1t]

I'd like to second Guts and Download, as it gives CAP28 more offensive options to potentially punish switching. It also makes it a bit less linear by having to choose more of what it wants to cover (i.e. negating Slowtwins Regen with N-Gas, or Toxapex with Guts by virtue of Scald, Toxic, Baneful Bunker, or Tspikes/Blissey). Guts at least is what I prefer, because it can give options such as Flame Orb at the expense of losing HDB (not to mention it is status reliant, so even HDB sets with Guts would have to rely on the opponents mons). This argument was mentioned previously, but it would make it so things like Blissey are less liberally spreading Toxic and pivoting out. It would discourage that type of behavior.

 

[Pipotchi]

Competitive has a reason to be picked alongside NGas, and works on the mixed sets everyone is obsessed with

 

[Amamama]

This has been mentioned previously, but abilities like Guts, Quick Feet, Flare Boost, and Poison Heal necessitate an item other than HDB and, in the case of the first three, entail a lot of chip on top of rocks. I could see Poison Heal working (though I don’t see its concept-relevance), but the others will ensure CAP28 is worn down too quickly to have enough of an impact on the game, even with boosted Leech Life potentially at its disposal. There are other offensively oriented abilities that accomplish similar things without causing CAP28 to lose a ton of longevity, which is pretty important for an anti-pivot.

I want to echo this thought.
Any ability that relies on us being statused, will force us to run flame or toxic orb. Relying on a random opposing status is just memeing.
But our typing doesn’t afford us running such an item. We are basically forced to run boots if we don’t want to be suicidal.

 

[jas61292]

Would a second competitive ability help CAP28 accomplish its goals of being a "roadblock"?

I'm going to take the seemingly unpopular approach here and say no. We have no need of a secondary ability. Ok, so maybe a secondary ability could help us be more of a "roadblock" in the general sense, but we had a Concept Assessment stage. We decided what pivots we want to target. And we selected an ability with those targets in mind. I think it is very telling how so many of the suggested options so far are trying to target Volt Switch and U-Turn users, rather than the Teleporters that we decided should be our targets. That is not our goal and we should not be entertaining such abilities. Furthermore, I believe that the history of the CAP project has shown us that giving secondary abilities (especially strong ones) with the intent of allowing us to beat different things, rather than the same things in different ways, is a bad idea. They either end up overshadowing the primary ability, or causing prediction nightmares, if they don't just end up unused.

Beyond this, our primary ability is Neutralizing Gas. That is an incredibly potent ability that is incredibly defining. Even if it is not quite one of the most powerful abilities we could have chosen (a claim I have seen but largely reject), it is so highly defining and highly targeted and highly concept relevant that I have no idea why we would want to distract from it by choosing another viable ability. This isn't some minor ability that provides a fringe benefit for only certain sets. It is an ability that outright shuts down key aspects of a large number of important Pokemon, regardless of our own set. Giving CAP 28 something else with more than just fringe benefits at best is, in my opinion, power for the sake of power, and will only distract from our goals, not improve our ability to achieve them.

 

[holy_shiinotic]

Something I haven't seen discussed yet is Quick Feet. Causing Status to raise our average Speed to serious levels is extremely valuable, especially as a Pokemon that can go mixed. Attempts to weaken 28 with a Burn or Toxic may result in negating one of its biggest flaws. The only other Pokemon with this ability and high Special Attack is Jolteon, and I think that says enough about how underexplored this ability is (especially since Jolteon is so fast to begin with). It adds another layer of uncertainty and stress to Pokemon looking to status something as we switch: going for Scald could be problematic if we get burned and are a Special Attacking QF set, but not going for Scald can give a ton of mileage to a Physical NG set, and that's just one scenario.

I was waiting for someone to mention it, but I didn't have as much knowledge of the metagame(and still don't, explaining the nonexistent original thoughts in this post) as I would like to actually suggest it.
Even so, I support quziel's suggestion of Thick Fat, because re-echoing dex18, flame or toxic orbs just aren't worth holding. We lose so many other good options, including Berries, HDB, and Cell Battery(call me crazy, but it could work).

 

[dex]

I want to mention an ability that hasn't been talked about yet that helps change how CAP28 deals with the bulky water-types of the tier that it is supposed to counter.
I present to you: Water Compaction

This is a different take on the "punish Scald" idea, and I think it could be an interesting tech to introduce to CAP28. It sets itself apart from Storm Drain in two ways: Scald damage and a possible burn are real but CAP28 gets the opportunity to reinforce its main weakness: Defense. This gives CAP28 a completely unique way to punish Scald spam from and , and a burn might not even be a big deal on a set with Water Compaction, given that it prevents a possible Toxic from Pex. This throws the opponent off guard, and changes which mons match up well into CAP28. Water Compaction could be situationally excellent, and I think it warrants at least a little discussion, though I do admit it is a more risky option to go for than N-Gas.

I also want to voice my support for Thick Fat, Competitive, Skill Link, and Storm Drain
Thick Fat patches up CAP28's shaky typing. Competitive is the ultra counter to and Defog users (which makes CAP28 very good on Sticky Web teams). Skill Link is just all around a very fun ability, and gives CAP28 a small boost in power (notably not hurting the move pool like Download might) with the added bonus of breaking Subs like no one's business. Storm Drain is a very interesting option for how it changes the matchup into , making the opponent think twice before spamming Scald.

 

[quziel]

Would a second competitive ability help CAP28 accomplish its goals of being a "roadblock"?

I'm going to take the seemingly unpopular approach here and say no. We have no need of a secondary ability. Ok, so maybe a secondary ability could help us be more of a "roadblock" in the general sense, but we had a Concept Assessment stage. We decided what pivots we want to target. And we selected an ability with those targets in mind. I think it is very telling how so many of the suggested options so far are trying to target Volt Switch and U-Turn users, rather than the Teleporters that we decided should be our targets. That is not our goal and we should not be entertaining such abilities. Furthermore, I believe that the history of the CAP project has shown us that giving secondary abilities (especially strong ones) with the intent of allowing us to beat different things, rather than the same things in different ways, is a bad idea. They either end up overshadowing the primary ability, or causing prediction nightmares, if they don't just end up unused.

Beyond this, our primary ability is Neutralizing Gas. That is an incredibly potent ability that is incredibly defining. Even if it is not quite one of the most powerful abilities we could have chosen (a claim I have seen but largely reject), it is so highly defining and highly targeted and highly concept relevant that I have no idea why we would want to distract from it by choosing another viable ability. This isn't some minor ability that provides a fringe benefit for only certain sets. It is an ability that outright shuts down key aspects of a large number of important Pokemon, regardless of our own set. Giving CAP 28 something else with more than just fringe benefits at best is, in my opinion, power for the sake of power, and will only distract from our goals, not improve our ability to achieve them.

W.r.t. the concept assessment stage, I will note we ended with the following quote: "First of all, CAP 28 will be targeting primarily Teleport pivots, with a secondary focus on other another kind of pivot to be decided later.". I think targeting a specific set of other pivots with our secondary ability is directly in line with our Concept Assessment as we deal with Slowking, Slowbro, and Blissey pretty damn well based on stats and typing alone.

Many of the abilities listed so far help us function as a road block more effectively by helping out some of the matchups vs the other pivots as decided in the Concept Assessment stage, and because of that I highly support a second competitive ability. This is also a relatively safe choice (unless we go like Tough Claws), as Neutralizing Gas announces itself when we enter the field completely removing the potential for mindgames past turn 1.

 

[Slapperfish]

Which abilities from the Secondary Ability List would help CAP28 further?

When I think of an anti-pivot, the first two abilities that immediately spring to mind for me are Stakeout and Analytic. Both can provide 28 with additional power against switch-ins, the latter being less powerful but more versatile, capable of helping 28 punish faster threats that either set up on it or hit it with something that doesn't KO. Granted, Stakeout might be a bit too overtuned for a secondary ability (for some reason I initially thought it was a 1.5x boost, not 2x), but time will tell with further discussion.

That said, I'm not the best person to turn to for theorycrafting and current metagame analysis (my forte lies moreso in the art section of CAP), so feel free to take this and future posts with a grain of salt.