CAP 29 - Part 2 - Primary Ability Discussion

[Krazyguy75]

Actually the test showed, that it indeed hits as normal type move if a mon with the ability normalize is on the users side of the field when it hits. It only changes its type, when the normalize mon isn’t on the field anymore.

...which isn’t what he said. He said it would be normal whether you stay in or switch out. Which is just wrong.

If you stay in, it is normal. If you switch out and stay out, psychic. If you switch out and back in, normal. That’s not predictable.

 

[Gekokeso]

Why does our base typing matter so much if it'll change the moment we get attacked? And how can we make a solid movepool when Color Change could completely invalidate it?

Our base typing is actually pretty important in the case of colour change. We can choose a typing that already resists many of the types that already resist themselves, like dragon steel. However, we could also choose a base typing that strengths 29 against the typings that color Change, such as normal fairy which blocks both ghost and dragon attacks. In terms of movepool, a 29 could easily adopt utility movepools without the need of using STAB, such as how Blissey doesn't run normal stab attacks.

 

[psykokitty]

I think arguments have been made for all the abilities on the slate, and even though I wouldn't necessarily vote for each of them, they deserve their place there.

I do, however, think that Normalize deserves a place on the slate and should be added. Most of the arguments toward its exclusion read to me as "I wouldn't vote for Normalize because xyz" rather than "Here's why NOBODY should have the option to vote for it." The possible exception would be Wolfinator's post, addressing concern that should it win, it would constrain the process. However, I feel that the discussion that has erupted here demonstrates the opposite! We've essentially already grappled with the question "How would we build a viable Pokemon with Normalize?" and come to the conclusion that it would need a movepool that has access to moves with unique mechanics. I feel like we've already had good conversations around Normalize, and those would continue to enrich the process of creating this CAP. Yes, the typing stage may be a little more limited, but perhaps the term 'focused' could be applied as well.

So, my two cents, put it on the slate and let people vote for it if they want to.

 

[Sputnik]

Normalize is definitely popping off in here, so I might as well give my two cents on it.

I don't think Normalize is the absolute worst concept we could go for (Klutz and Stall take that prize for me) but I'm still in agreement that It Should Not Be Slated. I was actually pretty excited for the idea of Normalize, and while I disagree that it would likely become another Spectrier, I do agree that the process would be incredibly flawed and the end product would not be the most interesting that we could have come up with here by a mile. Color Change, Emergency Exit, and Slow Start are all much better in my opinion, and hell, even things I'm not too big on like Perish Body and Defeatist would make for more interesting building processes than Normalize.

I also disagree that having good discussion on it should guarantee it a spot on the slate. Shafting an overall superior option, such as Slow Start, Defeatist, Perish Body, or even Mimicry in order to get Normalize, an ability that would just be incredibly boring while also being annoying to actually build, on the slate is not the play in my opinion. I have yet to see a convincing argument that Normalize would make for a superior overall concept than most of the others (except for Klutz, Stall, and Truant, but those would also be abysmal in my opinion and Normalize isn't really that far ahead of them), and yes there has been some interesting debate, but I'd rather vote on the best abilities for the job rather than something that has just been talked about a lot and that the vast majority of the community seems to think is a terrible idea.

 

[Riguor]

However, I feel that the discussion that has erupted here demonstrates the opposite! We've essentially already grappled with the question "How would we build a viable Pokemon with Normalize?" and come to the conclusion that it would need a movepool that has access to moves with unique mechanics.

I think Voltage had a reply that fits this sentiment earlier in the thread

I have to thoroughly disagree here. In making the movepool process somewhat unique, Normalize encourages severe polljumping in the typing and movepool stages for the sheer fact that literally in order to make Nornmalize work, we have to literally consider the moves. For example: "Do we give CAP29 Techno Blast?". We literally cannot answer that question because it's entirely polljumping. We cannot base stats around a move that we haven't decided yet, and y using Normalize, we are actively encouraging polljumping.

 

[Tadasuke]

After what's been a great burst in discussion I believe we are now ready to proceed with the final slate. It's listed below in alphabetical order.

• Color Change
• Defeatist
• Emergency Exit
• Perish Body
• Slow Start

Although it's already been discussed in my previous post, I'd like to review why each of these abilities are on the slate.

• Color Change: There's such a massive breadth of options in terms of which direction we can take this ability and fulfill the concept with it. We stand to learn so much from how it interacts with common threats in the meta defensively, as well as how valuable a static typing is as opposed to one that's constantly changing. The fact that the opponent has ultimate control over your typing once they've hit you with an attack just adds an extra dimension to what is already an intriguing concept.
• Defeatist: This ability also strikes me as one that's open enough to allow for a very deep conversation in each of the subsequent stages. Learning how to fulfill two roles with the same set on one mon is a truly fascinating issue, as is the fact that your HP plays such a huge role in terms of how you'll function in a game.
• Emergency Exit: This ability seems the least restrictive process-wise, and thus presents itself as a good candidate. There are so many interesting ways to go about forcing a switch from this ability and how we can take advantage of that. Additionally, there's a lot of room for discussion on this in terms of how we want to activate the ability and what benefits we stand to gain from it.
• Perish Body: This ability is one that while a bit contentious has gotten enough reasonable support to merit a spot on the slate. The interactions it has regarding how it can force out common defensive threats, make setup sweepers to rethink their strategies, and cause each player to budget their turns while dealing with its effects gives it enough depth to be a serious contender.
• Slow Start: While I was not initially sold on this ability, it has received solid arguments in support of how many options are available for fulfilling the concept with it. 5 turns is still an incredibly long time to stay in, but it's within reason to believe we can figure out how to meet that goal without introducing an unhealthy presence into the meta.

In regards to Normalize, I stand by the points I made in my original post. I believe it would lead to a one-dimensional and predictable mon while also making the process unnecessarily restrictive. I don't feel the need to argue this more since a lot of my thoughts have been echoed in posts made by Darek851, 2spoopy4u, MrDollSteak, kjnjkmjk1, Wulfanator72, Jordy, Rabia, snake_rattler, -Voltage-, Quziel, and Sputnik.

With that out of the way, I now leave it to Birkal to finalize the slate. I look forward to seeing you all in the voting thread!

 

[Birkal]

I listed my thoughts on each ability on this slate (and the abilities not on the slate) right here. I think this is an excellent slate for what this concept is trying to accomplish. All five of these abilities can lead to great discussions, and a viable yet balanced end product for our metagame. No additions or subtractions from me. Nicely done, everyone!

Again, I would encourage everyone reading this to skim through this thread once more before submitting your votes to make sure you're informed about the pros and cons of each of these five abilities. To the polls!