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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 7 - Second Flavor Ability Discussion
- Thread starter capefeather
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Dunno, but it was made clear to avoid immunity abilities. It seems nice to counter Sun teams, still. Boh!
Gulp, we already have Lanturn that swallows creatures whole and alive. Gluttony makes me shiver now. Brrr!
I feel that Weak Armor is far too powerful, it would allow Mollux to sweep far too easily. Remember, this is a ridiculously high SpA mon, and it could easily switch in on a U-Turn and sweep.
I lean towards Liquid Ooze and Suction Cups, Color Change is defeating the entire purpose of a CAP based around its type.
I lean towards Liquid Ooze and Suction Cups, Color Change is defeating the entire purpose of a CAP based around its type.
Suction Cups would be nice, but I really don't think we need a third flavor ability. Illuminate already covers flavor quite nicely and provides a way for Mollux to function in the sun without taking damage. Having another useless flavor ability would be unnecessary.
Also, for those of you who for some reason want DW unreleased abilities, I have to ask what the point is in doing it. Are you doing it just because you can? We're not even supposed to know about DW unreleased abilities. If we can't even use it, the only point in having it is for those who secretly want it released in the future.
Also, for those of you who for some reason want DW unreleased abilities, I have to ask what the point is in doing it. Are you doing it just because you can? We're not even supposed to know about DW unreleased abilities. If we can't even use it, the only point in having it is for those who secretly want it released in the future.
Now what about Klutz, it seems to me it would fit perfectly
I'm going to support the position that Drought has no place on CAP3, period, because it was voted down by the community twice. I was actually afraid of this happening, and sure enough, Dusk came up with an incredibly clever way to STILL legitimize its inclusion as a third ability on the basis of it will never be released. Why not just give it no ability at all if you have absolutely no intention of seeing it used? That's ridiculous. Dusk did extremely well at framing the debate in his favor, but a closer look reveals that it's a last-ditch attempt to revive an old weather debate that we don't need again. I don't care if it's unreleased or not, a weather-inducing ability is not flavor, and it pains me to think that people are seriously trying to pass it off as such. I implore this community to critically analyze everything they read here and not just hop on the bandwagon because it sounds awesome or whatever.
I'm actually kind of hurt that everyone seems to be assuming that my goal is malicious or some such. I'm not going to lie, the best part of this CAP for me and, indeed, for the process itself's goals, has been the discussions we had over the viability of Drought. We have the unique opportunity here for a bit of teasing, a bit of legacy, and more than a bit of irony. Teasing because now that ability we couldn't vote in is there, but unusable, legacy because everyone will down the road know that it meant a lot to CAP 3's process, and irony because everyone who really wants to use Drought won't be able to even if CAP 3 gets it. If anything, I was expecting more users to see the irony and think it a clever way to get back at all of the weather supporters of earlier discusssions, and either way, the art was prepared for this condition and we already have art that makes it seem pretty logical.
I'd actually implore you and the rest of the community to stop trying to see ulterior motives or something where there are none. DW Unreleased Drought is not some secret plot to BRAKE PLAYTEST or MAEK WEATHER DISCUSSION or what-have-you, and I'd really appreciate you not slandering both it and me in order to make your case.
I'd actually implore you and the rest of the community to stop trying to see ulterior motives or something where there are none. DW Unreleased Drought is not some secret plot to BRAKE PLAYTEST or MAEK WEATHER DISCUSSION or what-have-you, and I'd really appreciate you not slandering both it and me in order to make your case.
Er, we chose Illuminate because it is a non-competitve ability and only because it compensates the disadvantages of Dry Skin and avoids Trace users to switch in Mollux.
If we would give Mollux a third ability - then only if this one has also some disadvantages. I don't want that Illuminate is completely outclassed by the third ability.
Therefore I suggest one of the following
No tertiary ability
a variant of Hustle but for Special Attack instead of Attack
Color Change
If we would give Mollux a third ability - then only if this one has also some disadvantages. I don't want that Illuminate is completely outclassed by the third ability.
Therefore I suggest one of the following
No tertiary ability
a variant of Hustle but for Special Attack instead of Attack
Color Change
Unreleased DW Drought just seems more trouble than it's worth, RD. It's all well and good to have some sort of legacy to Drought, but honestly the locked Primary Ability Discussion thread can fill that role, further boosted by Smog articles and the like. Having an unreleased ability pretty much guarantees we'll be constantly fielding questions about why it's unreleased, which is why I'm against Drought here (or any other unreleased ability for that matter). I'd be more than happy to see a weather ability on some future CAP, though (personally I'd be rooting for Snow Warning)!
I will apologise for making accusations earlier in the thread, but please understand that it is not difficult to reach this conclusion after the significant amount of what could only be described as drama in the IRC channel and the first ability discussion. We need to let that tension die off.
Anyway, abilities I'm liking the look of:
Suction Cups - for reasons I've mentioned several times already.
Gluttony - I never thought of this one before, but it seems oddly appropriate!
Tangled Feet - I still stand by the fact that this is both possible and completely adorable.
Damp - go figure, it's a snail.
Sticky Hold - makes sense for the same reason Damp does.
No Third Ability - not my favoured choice, but we do have a nice flavour ability and I wouldn't be completely disappointed for Mollux not to get another.
I will apologise for making accusations earlier in the thread, but please understand that it is not difficult to reach this conclusion after the significant amount of what could only be described as drama in the IRC channel and the first ability discussion. We need to let that tension die off.
Anyway, abilities I'm liking the look of:
Suction Cups - for reasons I've mentioned several times already.
Gluttony - I never thought of this one before, but it seems oddly appropriate!
Tangled Feet - I still stand by the fact that this is both possible and completely adorable.
Damp - go figure, it's a snail.
Sticky Hold - makes sense for the same reason Damp does.
No Third Ability - not my favoured choice, but we do have a nice flavour ability and I wouldn't be completely disappointed for Mollux not to get another.
One question: would drought be usable in Dreamworld OU?
Neither CAP 3's playtest nor the CAP metagame are played with "Dream World" rules, so no.
To be clear, in all the discussions of Drought vs. Dry Skin, the notion the CAP could have both has been first and foremost in my mind, so I'm unconcerned about the effects of having it unreleased for the playtest - the effects it would have on say Movepool is effectively zero, and there are creative ways around issues.
There are also a few things in my control as to legalities that I don't need a vote on, like gender ratios, Height/Weight, etc. Needless to say that employing these for the purposes of the project is not something I consider taboo, canonical Pokemon has a lot of perks.
Unreleased Drought is fine in my book from a flavor perspective, The entirety of BW changed when unreleased abilities were released, and will likely change again when B2W2 comes out and some Gen 5 mons get their DW abilities.
In general I'm thinking of that or No tertiary ability - there are a few other abilities I liked from the last thread, but this presents us with an interesting option.
There are also a few things in my control as to legalities that I don't need a vote on, like gender ratios, Height/Weight, etc. Needless to say that employing these for the purposes of the project is not something I consider taboo, canonical Pokemon has a lot of perks.
Unreleased Drought is fine in my book from a flavor perspective, The entirety of BW changed when unreleased abilities were released, and will likely change again when B2W2 comes out and some Gen 5 mons get their DW abilities.
In general I'm thinking of that or No tertiary ability - there are a few other abilities I liked from the last thread, but this presents us with an interesting option.
Right, let's talk about Tangled Feet and ability flavour in general. I think that people don't give Game Freak as much credit for their ability assignments as they should. The reason for this is that everyone has their own interpretations of these abilities, which inevitably clash with Game Freak's. So Game Freak is blamed for being a bunch of herpaderps and their canon ignored.
The fact is that Game Freak has clearly been quite deliberate with certain abilities. Tangled Feet has been assigned almost entirely to birds. Why? Bulbapedia translates the Japanese name of Tangled Feet as "Tottering Steps". Even Google Translate manages to make sense and translate it as "Staggering Gait". The point is, it's not about feet getting tangled. It's a description of how birds walk. To suggest that Tangled Feet going to birds is just random coincidence would be like suggesting that Houndoom getting Early Bird is random coincidence. That, too, has a purpose in it.
I also find it kind of funny how the hostility of the Drought discussion has managed to make its way here. The weather abilities are a lot less defined than Tangled Feet / Suction Cups / Clear Body, precisely because at most two Pokémon have any of them. There's no suggesting that a Pokémon does or does not fit Drought's canon flavour. It's baseless. I think that how this discussion has gone, and how the polls will likely go, would severely reduce doubt that people just hate weather irrationally. And that's pretty sad imo.
Sorry, it's just that I hate to repeat myself, but I'd like to see the memo that everyone apparently got that the notion of "unlocking" an unreleased ability later was at all relevant to this project.
I happen to think that that's completely unreasonable. Not that it matters for any of this, anyway.
The fact is that Game Freak has clearly been quite deliberate with certain abilities. Tangled Feet has been assigned almost entirely to birds. Why? Bulbapedia translates the Japanese name of Tangled Feet as "Tottering Steps". Even Google Translate manages to make sense and translate it as "Staggering Gait". The point is, it's not about feet getting tangled. It's a description of how birds walk. To suggest that Tangled Feet going to birds is just random coincidence would be like suggesting that Houndoom getting Early Bird is random coincidence. That, too, has a purpose in it.
I also find it kind of funny how the hostility of the Drought discussion has managed to make its way here. The weather abilities are a lot less defined than Tangled Feet / Suction Cups / Clear Body, precisely because at most two Pokémon have any of them. There's no suggesting that a Pokémon does or does not fit Drought's canon flavour. It's baseless. I think that how this discussion has gone, and how the polls will likely go, would severely reduce doubt that people just hate weather irrationally. And that's pretty sad imo.
Sorry, it's just that I hate to repeat myself, but I'd like to see the memo that everyone apparently got that the notion of "unlocking" an unreleased ability later was at all relevant to this project.
I happen to think that that's completely unreasonable. Not that it matters for any of this, anyway.
So, mass confusion is OK because it won't actually effect anything? Really now? And as I said, you have to think of the future. We want the CAP to reflect the decisions that the community made, meaning such a DW ability can never be released, which, depending on how the future goes, would only serve to increase this confusion. Whether or not having it eventually released is the intent people have, it will still cause problems. Its just a bad idea.
At the same time though, can we actually discuss why we would want to do this? I mean, really guys? I'm just seeing the same problems now I saw with the earlier ability discussions with Drought. The thread has deteriorated more into a discussion on whether or not having a DW unreleased ability is a good idea rather than actually why Drought makes any sense in the first place. The only actual flavor evidence I have seen brought up is a picture that could just as easily be it using Sunny Day. So, its a fire type. Woo! Please someone explain what kind of sun imagery or the like it has to justify it over any other fire type. Otherwise, it has no business being in a flavor discussion, unreleased or otherwise.
Also, one more thing:
This is completely and totally wrong. DW moves is a perfectly legitimate way to make move illegalities. It we garuntee that its DW ability is unreleased, that is no longer an option, and there can be no difference between movepools with its two abilities without making up a brand new event or something silly. It is actually quite restricting indeed.
At the same time though, can we actually discuss why we would want to do this? I mean, really guys? I'm just seeing the same problems now I saw with the earlier ability discussions with Drought. The thread has deteriorated more into a discussion on whether or not having a DW unreleased ability is a good idea rather than actually why Drought makes any sense in the first place. The only actual flavor evidence I have seen brought up is a picture that could just as easily be it using Sunny Day. So, its a fire type. Woo! Please someone explain what kind of sun imagery or the like it has to justify it over any other fire type. Otherwise, it has no business being in a flavor discussion, unreleased or otherwise.
Also, one more thing:
This is completely and totally wrong. DW moves is a perfectly legitimate way to make move illegalities. It we garuntee that its DW ability is unreleased, that is no longer an option, and there can be no difference between movepools with its two abilities without making up a brand new event or something silly. It is actually quite restricting indeed.
Pretty easy way to dispel confusion:
Unreleased Drought means Unreleased solely for the playtest period.
Confusion solved. Please continue.
As to "zero effects on movepool" I mean that in the sense it changes nothing competitive as far as availability of moves. The core of the movepool in my head has always assumed both Drought and Dry Skin as possible avenues. What decisions people want to make about legality combinations is their concern, as it usually is.
Unreleased Drought means Unreleased solely for the playtest period.
Confusion solved. Please continue.
As to "zero effects on movepool" I mean that in the sense it changes nothing competitive as far as availability of moves. The core of the movepool in my head has always assumed both Drought and Dry Skin as possible avenues. What decisions people want to make about legality combinations is their concern, as it usually is.
Color Change would be a fun and unique flavor ability, but I think it goes a little too far in the 'absorbing attacks' direction (since we already have Dry Skin). The notion of having Drought as an unreleased Dream World ability is intriguing but given the confusion the proposition has already caused, I think that the polls are going to be full of utterly confounded people who didn't take the time to read through this thread and they will jam up the process. I still like Liquid Ooze, but if that doesn't get slated, No Tertiary Ability will have my vote.
First of all, I would like to say that I oppose unreleased Drought. There is little to no merit in giving Mollux an ability it can never use. Frankly, we may as well give it no third ability. It amounts to the same thing, minus the chance of getting annoyed by people constantly asking "waaaah, why can't I use Drought?" And we have no way of knowing exactly what Gamefreak's plans are for upcoming games and events; how would we explain Mollux being the only mon in the entire CAP metagame without its DW ability released, should it come to that? Our alternative would be even worse: releasing Drought, against the wishes of the community who voted it down not once, but twice.
I would prefer to see a third (released) ability that has at least a slight bit of competitive merit, albeit one outclassed by Dry Skin. Granted, this means Illuminate would get no use whatsoever, but I don't see that as a bad thing. I would like to make the case for a woefully under-explored ability that I haven't seen suggested to this point: Wonder Skin. The only other fully evolved mons with this ability either have an ability that is vastly better (Tinted Lens, Magic Guard) or are Delcatty. I believe this complements Dry Skin very well flavor-wise, and makes sense for Mollux in general from a flavor perspective. While Dry Skin is certainly better overall than Wonder Skin, it could see use on sun teams. The lack of 100% reliability helps keep it in check, while at the same time increasing Mollux' resistance to the few statuses it isn't already immune to.
I would prefer to see a third (released) ability that has at least a slight bit of competitive merit, albeit one outclassed by Dry Skin. Granted, this means Illuminate would get no use whatsoever, but I don't see that as a bad thing. I would like to make the case for a woefully under-explored ability that I haven't seen suggested to this point: Wonder Skin. The only other fully evolved mons with this ability either have an ability that is vastly better (Tinted Lens, Magic Guard) or are Delcatty. I believe this complements Dry Skin very well flavor-wise, and makes sense for Mollux in general from a flavor perspective. While Dry Skin is certainly better overall than Wonder Skin, it could see use on sun teams. The lack of 100% reliability helps keep it in check, while at the same time increasing Mollux' resistance to the few statuses it isn't already immune to.
I'd like to see Drought stop being brought up since it was voted down twice, whether or not it can actually be used competitively. I don't see any strong arguments for it as a flavor ability since from what I can tell, they all involve reminding us of how Drought was voted against (which really doesn't make sense to me as an argument).
After seeing that video DougJustDoug linked, I'm liking Gluttony a lot. Alternatively, we could have No Tertiary Ability, since those two abilities are enough.
After seeing that video DougJustDoug linked, I'm liking Gluttony a lot. Alternatively, we could have No Tertiary Ability, since those two abilities are enough.
I am in full favor of unreleased Drought. I honestly don't care if it eventually gets released or not into the CAP metagame. Actually, my preference would be that it would never be released. The reason the ability appeals to me so much is because Drought was arguably the defining aspect of CAP3. Sure, the concept was fun and Ice/Rock goatmons (baaaah) for typing and all that jazz, but when it comes down to it, I will always remember CAP3 as "that CAP where we argued about Drought a ton."
In my opinion, it's the perfect icing on the cake to give this CAP Drought as its unreleased ability. It's an excellent testimony to what we've worked for and discussed. So when we, inevitably, get asked in the future: "why does CAP3 have unreleased Drought?" we can use that as a teaching opportunity for how CAP3's process went. It's also a fantastic community tie-in because it makes CAP really close and personal to us. I dunno, unreleased Drought seems like the perfect summation to symbolize what we've worked for here.
In my opinion, it's the perfect icing on the cake to give this CAP Drought as its unreleased ability. It's an excellent testimony to what we've worked for and discussed. So when we, inevitably, get asked in the future: "why does CAP3 have unreleased Drought?" we can use that as a teaching opportunity for how CAP3's process went. It's also a fantastic community tie-in because it makes CAP really close and personal to us. I dunno, unreleased Drought seems like the perfect summation to symbolize what we've worked for here.
Maybe I'm just dense, but this did not solve any confusion that I have about unreleased Dream World abilities. This is something we haven't done yet in CAP, which is not to say that it is "bad" or "wrong," but should be something that is planned with some kind of consensus. If "unrealeased Drought means unreleased solely for the playtest period," does that mean that it will be released after playtesting? If so, when? Who will make the decision to release it?
If "Unreleased Drought" is going to be an option to be voted on, then the rules of when and how it can be released must be made clear to everyone voting. CAP does not end with the playtest.
I have nothing wrong with bringing back an ability that the community already voted down (just like I see nothing wrong with Tangled Feet being slated again), but this vagueness about any future releasing of an "unrealeased" ability needs to be fully and explicitly clarified if it is to become a voting option.
tl;dr - The undefined mechanics of an unreleased ability must be clarified before slating, because any ability released later (even something like Unreleased Color Change) will affect the CAP metagame.
The thing about Unreleased Drought, is that it would seem odd if a Pokemon played radically different in the playtest than it would after the test. Which is the "final" Pokemon here? It would always feel as if we made two CaP3- the one the voters wanted and the one the CaP metagame wanted. There is a tremendous precedent here, and it is two-fold. It would set up a precedent that a Pokemon is allowed to get CaP meta-exclusive goodies regardless of what the community wanted for that era of BW. It would also set a precedent for rewarding things that lost. Drought was defeated twice, showing that however much it was debated the community ruled against it. Rewarding Drought because we discussed it and chose no is like giving Revenankh Will-o-Wisp as a Dream World tutor, but then never releasing it. Be it in revisions or other fields, it had been ruled that a finished product is final. Making the "finished" product and the "after completion" product different is a notable break from precedent. Is it really worth it for something as minor as an ability it won't be able to use?
Needless to say, I am against unreleased Drought as it sets a number of precedents and goes down a road that CaP had decided it wouldn't go down. I support No Tertiary Ability here. There's not much of a point in having more than one flavor ability.
Needless to say, I am against unreleased Drought as it sets a number of precedents and goes down a road that CaP had decided it wouldn't go down. I support No Tertiary Ability here. There's not much of a point in having more than one flavor ability.
By definition a CAP ends when the Playtest ends. CAP3's Discussions have no bearing on CAP4's Discussions save as a reference point in history. If you're still confused, it's because you're using "how confusing it is" as obfuscation in place of a reasonable argument.
There is nothing confusing about "Drought is unreleased during the playtest." It will be programmed but unavailable, just as right now if you open up PO putting Shadow Tag on Chandelure gets you booted into DW OU instead of standard OU.
Performance in the CAP Metagame is also a non-starter. The existence of what will now be 13 other CAPs is already going to alter how the Pokemon performs in a solely BW OU playtest vs. how it performs in the CAP Metagame. The two are already so divergent as to not be analogous.
There is nothing confusing about "Drought is unreleased during the playtest." It will be programmed but unavailable, just as right now if you open up PO putting Shadow Tag on Chandelure gets you booted into DW OU instead of standard OU.
Performance in the CAP Metagame is also a non-starter. The existence of what will now be 13 other CAPs is already going to alter how the Pokemon performs in a solely BW OU playtest vs. how it performs in the CAP Metagame. The two are already so divergent as to not be analogous.
The problem with the bolded part of your quote is that CAP is not made for the CAP metagame. The CAP metagame is just a fun little diversion after the hard work of the actual process and playtesting. Whether or not it affects the CAP metagame is of no real concern to many of the voters here. Likely, the ability would be released immediately after playtesting is finished and CAP3 is Mollux is released into the CAP metagame proper.
My problem with slating drought is that it really serves no purpose in terms of flavor. We can give mollux the same flavor as drought will provide by just giving it sunny day in its moveset if people think its that important to the flavor of this mon anyways.
With that said, I think a flavor ability that describes mollux in a more unique way should be chosen. Some good examples that I've seen are Liquid ooze suction cups and sticky hold. My favorite being liquid ooze as it goes well with mollux's unique typing combination. No tertiary ability is also a good option as illuminate is a very good ability in terms of flavor
With that said, I think a flavor ability that describes mollux in a more unique way should be chosen. Some good examples that I've seen are Liquid ooze suction cups and sticky hold. My favorite being liquid ooze as it goes well with mollux's unique typing combination. No tertiary ability is also a good option as illuminate is a very good ability in terms of flavor
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