CAP 30 - Part 10b - Base Forme Stat Spread Submissions

[1BluLizard]

As others have pointed out, the entire slate has high physical defense, and there isn't really a specially bulky version. The closest to one is brambane's, with 100 Defense and 125 Special Defense, but even that has 100 Defense, and all the other ones have higher physical defense or are balanced. As Tommaniacal says, that makes Stamina a lot stronger, and a more balanced set taking Stamina into account could have higher Special defense, relying on Stamina to get good physical defense with help from a recovery move. I think it makes sense that there is one version at least from someone that gave 30b lower physical defense, not necessarily really low, but at least below 100. Also every slate leans rather heavily to one side of offense, and while the side varies I think that it would have been better if there was one more balanced set in terms of offense, although as far as I can tell nobody even posted an idea for a balanced offensive set so there's not much to be done there. Aside from that, the slate has a lot of variety that looks really interesting, and all the versions have different ideas, which is good.

Edit:
I would still like to see a more specially bulky 30b, but thats what I made so I'm biased, and I think that from what people have said it makes sense that the slate can stay as is. There are benefits to both, and while I think balancing 30b is definitely possible while still taking into account Stamina, it would be hard, and going for lower special defense to make it easier to beat and not a complete wall makes sense. Even though a specially bulk 30b that starts off physically weak but then gets Stamina boosts is a cool idea, it would be very strong, especially since it is the base form and so it could hold something like Leftovers with Roost/Recover recovery. I don't think that it should have really low Special defense, like nothing below 70, probably at least 80, but not higher than maybe 90 would make it easier to kill, although for that high it would have to lose offenses.

 

[Zetalz]

Quick post to push against the wave here, I think the slate is fine as is.

To be frank I'm really not keen on pushing for a super fat SpDef version of 30b at this point. Even with moderately good defense (which pretty much every single subbed spread has at least) questions about 30b's ability to just never fucking die start to crop up really quick. Honestly I think having a built-in weakness in the form of lower SpDef I think is a GOOD thing to keep 30b from becoming an un-killable juggernaut at this stage. Frankly the lower Speed several of these spreads have is not very much of a drawback considering just how much fatter they make 30b as a whole. Focusing on Defense is a still very viable path to take for 30b, Stamina is a fucking crazy ability and I'd really like to not be in a position where we end up going "oh shit we made it too fat, now what?" going forward, which I feel the high SpDef spreads pulls us towards. No personal stake in the desire for one of the higher SpA spreads since there's really only 2 of them, like I said I think slate is perfect as is.

 

[1BluLizard]

Quick post to push against the wave here, I think the slate is fine as is.

To be frank I'm really not keen on pushing for a super fat SpDef version of 30b at this point. Even with moderately good defense (which pretty much every single subbed spread has at least) questions about 30b's ability to just never fucking die start to crop up really quick. Honestly I think having a built-in weakness in the form of lower SpDef I think is a GOOD thing to keep 30b from becoming an un-killable juggernaut at this stage. Frankly the lower Speed several of these spreads have is not very much of a drawback considering just how much fatter they make 30b as a whole. Focusing on Defense is a still very viable path to take for 30b, Stamina is a fucking crazy ability and I'd really like to not be in a position where we end up going "oh shit we made it too fat, now what?" going forward, which I feel the high SpDef spreads pulls us towards. No personal stake in the desire for one of the higher SpA spreads since there's really only 2 of them, like I said I think slate is perfect as is.

That is a good point, but there are spreads that work that solve this problem, such as Reviloja's has 84 Defense and 108 Sp. Defense, which makes it more Physically inclined and provides another option different from all the other spreads, but will start with pretty average to bad physical defense, while not having amazing special defense but still pretty tanky. This means that it can use stamina to balance out, but it is weak at the start, and for example Zeraora with Life Orb and 252 Attack always ohkos it without a Stamina boost, even if 30b has 252 Defense and 252 HP. This in general makes 30b more balanced towards both sides defensively, and while it can become very tanky and hard to kill, it with low enough defense at the start it still has to get set up, which can be hard especially since Stamina only activates upon being hit, so the opponent can just not hit it and switch to a counter that beats it.

 

[D2TheW]

Quick post in support of the slate, since I think it's fine as is. Each slated sub is good and there's not much overlap between them. There's a lot of routes 30b could go down and in my opinion, this slate has submissions that represent all of the routes that are worth going down. I don't think the slate needs any additions and I definitely don't think any of the currently slated subs deserve to be replaced, even Brambane's crackhead spread.

Sorry this post doesn't have more substance, I'm busy af today.

Edit:

for example Zeraora with Life Orb

Jsyk life orb Zera sees minimal usage in the current meta, this is a pretty bad example to use.

 

[Darek]

Overall really like the slate here, but have concerns over a few of the spreads.

For starters, I am legitimately afraid of Dex's spread. 85/102/102 bulk is phenomenal, and combined with Stamina just seems exceptionally difficult to kill. My main concern here is this spread's bulk allows it to stomach most physical hits thanks to Stamina boosts, and it can't really effectively be revenge killed by the most common Special attackers in the tier. For instance, with the intended 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe EVs and timid nature, this spread always lives a Tapu Koko Tbolt from full and threatens a chance to KO Sludge Bomb. My main worry however is with regard to Tapu Lele and Kyurem match-up. With the level of bulk this spread offers, I would like strong special wallbreakers like these two to always be able to take down 30b; however, the fact that this spread outspeeds those two makes them far from reliable revenge killers. That being said, I would like to remove this spread from the slate.

Conversely, Scizivire's spread seems notably weak. A lot of the benchmarks provided in the submission post seem very dependent on specific EV spreads, meaning 30b can only choose a handful of those benchmarks to actually hit in a given game. The offensive pressure this mon exerts, while decent, is nothing to write home about, especially when combined with its unimpressive speed tier. This in conjunction with middling special bulk I fear will force 30b into a mainly defensive role rather than being a full-fledged tank. The weakness of this spread is especially noticeable when compared to Snake's spread, which is quite similar except much faster. The difference in speed means is that even though both can capitalize off of U-Turn for free boosts, Scizivire's is too easily exploited by the common special wallbreakers of the tier due to their ability to outspeed and thus force us out after the pivot.

Also on the topic of adding more SpDef-oriented spread, I see no necessity to do so. The slate is far from lacking high-SpDef spreads, between Brambane, Viol and Bass, and Da Pizza Man. Furthermore, as Zetalz mentioned, we ought to be wary with regard to how much Special Defense we put into 30b given the nature of Stamina. Thus, I don't think any more spreads should be added but I would like to see Dex's and Scizivire's spreads removed.

 

[Astra]

May as well as some input, considering that I didn't submit a statline for 30b myself.

I personally agree with Zetalz here in that a low Special Defense should be a main weakness of 30b. Obviously, it doesn't need to have a horrible Special Defense (67 seems to be a good minimum to take on Jumbao well enough for it to be fully considered a counter to it), but if it's so high that it can take special attack well enough for it to recover it back, it's worrisome to think about how easily it can get out of hand. I don't really see making its Defense lower as a compromise, either, as I believe that would be anti-concept. The hoops we would need to jump through in order for such a stat line to fit the concept seems to be too complicated, especially when you factor in the fact that we still have 30i statline to do.

As such, I believe the slate is fine as is. There are a couple of spreads that look kind of worrying, but I don't think it's too much to stress about, considering that they can be reasonably balanced with a more modest movepool. Besides that, I really like the variety of the different paths we have at the moment; it will make voting for them quite the challenge, at least for me.

 

[Wulfanator]

Regarding the spdef heavy submissions, I am inclined to agree with the arguments against them. The strength of stamina has been understated as it quickly makes 30b difficult to break. Paired with the strong offensive stats these spreads offer, it can easily make for a problematic CAP.

Of all the spdef heavy spreads being discussed, I think dex’s could work as it does compromise somewhat on the offensive power. However, it still pushes the limit. I think it is one of the safer options to consider for two reasons. First, defining moves are not guaranteed. They are subject to change for the sake of balance and that may be the case with a spread like this. Second, we can make small adjustments to 30b with the post-play lookback. If the stats end up problematic, we can adjust and reallocate stats for the 2.0 release. I think dex’s spread would be easier to retune if that is the conclusion we make after the 1.0 release. It also has a better contrast to viol and bass’s submission compared to the other spdef heavy submissions since the other spreads would simply outclass viol and bass’s. There needs to be tradeoffs between the options on the slate.

 

[snake]

85 HP / 68 Atk / 84 Def / 111 SpA / 108 SpD / 84 Spe (540 BST)

For these stats, the EV distribution I am going to be assuming is 188 HP / 252+ Def / 68 Spe.

HP - 88
Atk - 60
Def - 85
Sp. Atk - 105
Sp. Def - 115
Speed - 81
BST - 534

it also lets it survive a 3hit Triple Axle from Weavile if fully defense invested with a defense boosting nature,

It is ohkod by Hippowdon if it has no bulk investment if it roosts and Hippowdon EQs, but with at least 240 Defense EVs, EQ never ohkos and Stone edge is always a 2hko

Going to pick on these two submissions given that the authors have been vocal about slating a more specially defensive spread. It might just be me, but I really don't feel like spreads like these are going to run heavy investment in its Defense stat. If I'm looking at a Pokemon with 85/85/115-ish bulk, I'm likely to just invest in a more specially defensive spread. Base 85 is just so much lower than Base 115, and although we have Stamina, it's important to factor how CAP30b will tank hits at +0. Also, a base 85 Defense, uninvested Body Press is going to do pretty paltry damage. Stamina will make Body Press eventually do damage, but why run a move that needs Stamina to activate a couple times before it does decent damage? At that point you might as well run just Fire coverage, which are included as defining moves on the above spreads. On the other hand, if you invest in Defense specifically to have decent Body Press damage, that means your special tankiness just isn't hitting its potential because it doesn't have the EVs for it.

I prefer spreads with higher base Defense because:

• Body Press actually hits decently hard without any Defense EVs.
• It's more likely for a Pokemon with comparable Def/SpD or higher Def than SpD to invest in Defense than Special Defense (and thus boost Body Press damage more).
• They ensure that CAP30b has a defined weakness to special attacks.

 

[Reviloja753]

Going to pick on these two submissions given that the authors have been vocal about slating a more specially defensive spread. It might just be me, but I really don't feel like spreads like these are going to run heavy investment in its Defense stat. If I'm looking at a Pokemon with 85/85/115-ish bulk, I'm likely to just invest in a more specially defensive spread. Base 85 is just so much lower than Base 115, and although we have Stamina, it's important to factor how CAP30b will tank hits at +0. Also, a base 85 Defense, uninvested Body Press is going to do pretty paltry damage. Stamina will make Body Press eventually do damage, but why run a move that needs Stamina to activate a couple times before it does decent damage? At that point you might as well run just Fire coverage, which are included as defining moves on the above spreads. On the other hand, if you invest in Defense specifically to have decent Body Press damage, that means your special tankiness just isn't hitting its potential because it doesn't have the EVs for it.

I prefer spreads with higher base Defense because:

• Body Press actually hits decently hard without any Defense EVs.
• It's more likely for a Pokemon with comparable Def/SpD or higher Def than SpD to invest in Defense than Special Defense (and thus boost Body Press damage more).
• They ensure that CAP30b has a defined weakness to special attacks.

In my submission I discuss how fully investing in Special Defense actually does not give much in return for my stat spread. The Koko matchup remains identical, as does its matchup against Kyurem and Tapu Lele, our two best offensive answers. We do not take Heatran's Magma Storm any easier with max Special Defense, unless it's an offensive Heatran, and even if you're max SpD against an Offensive Heatran, you're left more vulnerable after KOing Heatran and don't get much other use out of it. Aside from Dragapult, you don't really get much out of maxing SpD. Really, all maxing SpD does is trade your Heatran matchup for a more consistent one with Dragapult. You can do that if you want, but it isn't exactly like maxing SpD suddenly makes 30b unkillable.

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 127-150 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Crobat: 93-109 (24.8 - 29.1%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 153-181 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Crobat: 112-133 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage

Furthermore, both dex and viol's spreads, which are both on the slate, have equivalent levels of special bulk while also having a similarly high amount of physical bulk. Dex's spread has 98 SpA, which is a notable drawback, so that is at least somewhat understandable, but viol's has 117 SpA, with the only major downside being an abysmal speed stat. While I realize this was not specifically your point, anyone who worries about specially defensive spreads being an issue should look at those two spreads first before going after the ones people are asking to put on the slate.

That said, Body Press needing investment to do notable damage is a flaw of spreads like mine, and if that's a dealbreaker for you, that is entirely fair. I just believe that Body Press is not so intrinsically tied to the success of 30b's usage of Stamina to where any spread that puts a lesser emphasis on it should not be slated.

 

[Brambane]

Second, we can make small adjustments to 30b with the post-play lookback. If the stats end up problematic, we can adjust and reallocate stats for the 2.0 release. I think dex’s spread would be easier to retune if that is the conclusion we make after the 1.0 release. It also has a better contrast to viol and bass’s submission compared to the other spdef heavy submissions since the other spreads would simply outclass viol and bass’s. There needs to be tradeoffs between the options on the slate.

Is there any particular reason why dex's spread would be easier to retune than the other spreads on the slate?

 

[G-Luke]

Gonna speak on stuff because I can't make spreads.

I think low defense spreads simply make no sense. It seems like people are trying to shift the focus of what the mon is trying to do. Even with Stamina, 85/80 Defense is kinda meh for a SR weak Pokémon. I can't see Body Press being as remarkable without investment with a sub 100 Defense stat. Its not unpractical, but I feel its rather unreliable, or requires alot more investment that one would rather put into it's special attack.

In my submission I discuss how fully investing in Special Defense actually does not give much in return for my stat spread. The Koko matchup remains identical, as does its matchup against Kyurem and Tapu Lele, our two best offensive answers. We do not take Heatran's Magma Storm any easier with max Special Defense, unless it's an offensive Heatran, and even if you're max SpD against an Offensive Heatran, you're left more vulnerable after KOing Heatran and don't get much other use out of it. Aside from Dragapult, you don't really get much out of maxing SpD. Really, all maxing SpD does is trade your Heatran matchup for a more consistent one with Dragapult. You can do that if you want, but it isn't exactly like maxing SpD suddenly makes 30b unkillable.

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 127-150 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Crobat: 93-109 (24.8 - 29.1%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 153-181 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Crobat: 112-133 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage

Furthermore, both dex and viol's spreads, which are both on the slate, have equivalent levels of special bulk while also having a similarly high amount of physical bulk. Dex's spread has 98 SpA, which is a notable drawback, so that is at least somewhat understandable, but viol's has 117 SpA, with the only major downside being an abysmal speed stat. While I realize this was not specifically your point, anyone who worries about specially defensive spreads being an issue should look at those two spreads first before going after the ones people are asking to put on the slate.

That said, Body Press needing investment to do notable damage is a flaw of spreads like mine, and if that's a dealbreaker for you, that is entirely fair. I just believe that Body Press is not so intrinsically tied to the success of 30b's usage of Stamina to where any spread that puts a lesser emphasis on it should not be slated.

I do not understand. The calcs you provide here are MASSIVE jumps in regards to how a particular EV spread versus max SpD matchup works. The SpD set dodges the 2HKO even with trapping damage, allowing you to spam BPress and then take them out, and you can sure let the mon die afterwards, or, depending on the matchup, pivot out and then Roost / Recover again on something else. It's even more apparent with 0 SpA sets, which annoy no investment sets, but are more or less fodder for ones with heavy investment. And this is what people are bringing up here. Its not the stiff like Tapu Lele and Kyurem we are talking about, ofc these mons beat us no matter how hard we try and invest stats. Its the special breakers with neutral matchups, ones that rely on simply hitting hard and not getting the SE STAB Bonus, this is the real problem, (as you bring up with Dragapult). It racks up Stamina boosts easily versus the average offensive special attacker, and then you run into the problem of being unkillable on both sides. I much prefer the higher defense spreads and even more so the ones with high defense and average SpD, as I feel is more in line with what we would want this to do.

 

[Lasen]

After discussing this with the TLT once more today, I have reached the conclusion of not changing the slate. The reasoning provided here is that the TLT believe that the spreads presented offer us a wide variety of choices to take into consideration when building up 30b. I believe nothing is too out of line either on the higher or the lower scale of power and putting emphasis on more physically defensive inclined spreads makes a ton of sense considering we're building around Stamina. But just so I don't hand wave the spreads I declined, I'll provide my reasoning as to why they didn't end up making the final slate.

MDS

80 HP / 50 ATK / 90 DEF / 110 SPA / 120 SPD / 78 SPE | 528 BST

MrDollSteak's spread provides extremely high special bulk and formidable Special Attack with the Speed and Defense not being bad, either. For what 30b aims to do, it ticks all of the boxes but it feels like it'd quite easily take over the metagame. Just a really strong spread that's really difficult to break.

BinPin

60 HP / 65 ATK / 130 DEF / 105 SPA / 90 SPD / 110 SPE | 560 BST

Binnacle Pinnacle's spread is extremely close to Snake_Rattler's spread and we just opted to slate snake's instead. This spread has clear strengths and weaknesses, but we want the slate to be quite diverse.

Tommaniacal

90 HP / 73 ATK / 86 DEF / 118 SPA / 105 SPD / 68 SPE | BST 540

This spread once more falls under the pitfall of having an extremely high Special Attack while having considerable bulk. To put it simply, the damage output is not something to be taken lightly and as such was difficult to justify slating. Moreover, viol and bass submitted a similar spread but the damage output is balanced out by the considerably lower speed (48).

Reviloja

85 HP / 68 ATK / 84 DEF / 111 SPA / 108 SPD / 84 SPE | 540 BST

On the other side of the spectrum, Reviloja's spread is underwhelming for what the BST is. It's an attempt to be bulky, fast and also have really high Special Attack, but it misses the mark ever so slightly in every stat as it doesn't feel like it has a real identity.

explosion badger

95 HP /72 ATK / 101 DEF /125 SPA / 89 SPD / 53 SPE | 535 BSR

This spread went too overboard on the attacking department, being able to 2HKO key offensive threats with minimal investment while having pretty good bulk. Running the risk of having a wall overwhelm its offensive checks without even dipping into its attacking stats was simply too mich, and as such couldn't make the slate.

1blulizard

88 HP / 60 ATK / 85 DEF / 105 SPA / 115 SPD / 81 SPE | 534 BSR

This spread was the closest of all to making it, but the TLT decided to cut it because while it has the highest ST of any legal stat spread submitted, it also included decent firepower and Speed pushed it out of contention.

ultramafia

75 HP / 65 Atk / 98 Def / 129 SpA / 113 SpD / 55 Spe | 535 BST

Stamina would make this stat spread extremely powerful, as 129 Special Attack is nothing to scoff at and its special bulk while combined with consistent recovery makes dominating the game with this 30b spread extremely easy as it refuses to go down.

With this I pass this onto Wulfanator to give us the final word for 30b and we shall move onto initial voting for the spreads!

Mod Edit: added slate

slate

dex: 85 HP / 65 Atk / 102 Def / 98 SpA / 102 SpD / 98 Spe / 550 BST
Dex posted a nice balanced spread defensively with decent SpA but can use stamina as a way to break through heatran, with enough Speed to outspeed Heatran uninvested and 2HKO with +1 0 Def Body press after rocks while dodging the 2HKO from Magma Storm when invested. This 30b also has the capability to defensively and offensively check Kartana and Urshifu through a combination of its typing and Flying-type STAB moves.

quziel: 85 HP / 48 Atk / 100 Def / 106 SpA / 78 SpD / 103 Spe / 520 BST
Quziel went for a faster Pokemon that utilizes its special attack to outspeed Urshifu/Garchomp but is still slower than krilowatt. more emphasis is put on the attacking aspect, but can still live through the likes of Zeraora's Plasma Fist and even 2HKO Heatran with Body Press, but not Kyurem; not even after Stealth Rocks. This spread accounts for a wide variety of defining moves.

snake_rattler: 85 HP / 65 ATK / 120 DEF / 100 SPA / 65 SPD / 120 SPE / 555 BST
Snake's spread is quite a fast one, aiming to mimick Kartana to a certain extent. With 120 Speed the likes of tornadus-t/koko/weavile remain sturdy answers but 30b remains bulky enough to take a few hits. More emphasis is placed on 30b's STAB options so Ice-type coverage wasn't accounted for, but Fire-type coverage in Heat Wave was considered as a way to deal with Cawmodore.

brambane: 68 HP / 100 Atk / 100 Def / 40 SpA / 125 SpD / 62 Spe / 495 BST
Brambane went down a unique route, opting to try and take advantage of Coil and our physical attack. This helps versus Calm Mind Clefable as well as Galarian Slowking, two Pokemon that would wall Special variants. Brambane's 30b into dipping in both defensive stats to make up for the rather middling speed, which still remains enough to outspeed standard Heatran and/or clef and Tyranitar. The spread allows 30b to live the combination of Knock Off into Plasma Fist from Zeraora and 2HKO Kartana with Body Press at +1. Ice type coverage wasn't included, in an effort to keep Landorus-T as a hard check.

Da Pizza Man: 85 HP / 70 Atk / 113 Def / 118 SpA / 90 SpD / 64 Spe / 540 BST
Da Pizza Man wanted to make a 30b that can either dip fully into the roll of a sturdy tank or opt into using its Special Attack to pose some level of threat. Emphasis is again placed on Defense, but enough Special Defense is there to never be 2HKOed by Modest LO Jumbao's Moonblast. 113 base Defense lets us 2HKO Heatran and SubRoost with Body Press at +1 even uninvested, while keeping the threat of offensive Kyurem present by being OHKOed by Ice Beam. The Speed lets us underspeed Hippowdown and plays into running Roost.

viol and bass: 84 HP / 76 Atk / 104 Def / 117 SpA / 106 SpD / 48 Spe / 535 BST
Viol and bass has taken the approach of tank back to its roots, opting for a rather bulky and slow 30b. Filling the role of tank, this approach at 30b tries to run SpD and leave its defense untouched and boost it slowly but surely through stamina boosts. with a lot of optional moves slated, 30b will have the tools to check special attackers but can never fulfill every role.

scizivire: 92 HP / 76 Atk / 112 Def / 101 SpA / 66 SpD / 88 Spe / 535
Scizivire's spread goes the hardest on physical bulk, with a PT of 118. The aim here is to switch into predicted U-turns and thus be able to avoid 2HKOs from the likes of Zeraora while recovering the damage off with roost/recover. A solid mid game pivot that can turn into a late game win condition, but easy to dispatch with a strong special attack.

 

[Wulfanator]

I fully support the slate and believe this is the smartest decision for the project. I have no changes for the slate since the spreads were sufficiently discussed amongst the TLT. Send it to the poll.