CAP 30 - Part 4 - Typing Discussion

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Tadasuke

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CAP 30 So Far

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It's time to discuss one of the most important decisions for CAP 30, its type! Please follow spoo's posts carefully and DO NOT immediately propose type combinations until he says so.

Below is the final post from the Concept Assessment thread:

With few new posts commenting on the slate, slate will remain the same. Slate was separated by form (30b and 30i) and then organized alphabetically.

Choice User 30b
Offensive Pivot 30b
Utility Wallbreaker 30b
Late-Game Cleaner 30i
Utility Wallbreaker 30i


You will be voting on role and form in the same poll. Remember that 30b is the base form and 30i is the item-locked form.

At the request of pip, I provided some explanations and examples as to what types of products could be for each of these roles.

Choice User 30b
This would yield a pokemon who’s strength is most apparent when used in conjunction with a choice item. I think all choice items are available for this route, but specs/band are the ones most users will acknowledge because of Tinted Lens. Existing pokemon are not great 1-to-1 comparisons since users might just go slap Tinted Lens on them in the damage calc and conclude “this is broken.” The three potential result I would anticipate with this route are
  • Fast + Frail (similar to Dragapult, Syclant, and Weavile)
  • Slow + Tanky (similar to Melmetal)
  • Well-Rounded (similar to Jumbao, Tapu Lele, and Victini)
Offensive Pivot 30b
This mon primarily wants to use its offensive capabilities to force the opponent into switching by threatening KOs. This then provides CAP30 an opportunity to capitalize on it by pivoting out itself. This does not necessitate CAP30 have access to pivot moves, but it would help. I think Zeraora and Krilowatt are the best examples of mons that use offensive pivoting as a primary function. Landorus-T and Equilibra are less obvious examples of how to build an offensive pivot, but both would still provide strong final products should we choose to mirror them.

Utility Wallbreaker 30b/30i
Given that setup is no longer being considered for this project due to the risk it poses, these routes would rely heavily on raw power to break fatter mons. Similar to offensive pivots, this type of mon would be forcing out the opponent by threatening a KO, but would be using utility moves to better position the entire team for success instead of pivoting. Twave Melmetal, Scarf Knock+Defog Kartana, and Taunt+Toxic Heatran are all potential ways of achieving this type of role. This would make hazard setting, hazard removal, status infliction, cleric support, and item manipulation in the forms of knock off and trick all forms of utility I can see being considered.

Late-Game Cleaner 30i
Lastly, late-game cleaner would probably yield a less powerful product compared to the other roles available. Cleaners/revenge killers typically prefer the opposing team be softened before they enter the battle and start threatening KOs. This can be achieved with strong priority, great speed, or even a combination of the two. Pokémon like Dragapult are able to break and clean in the same slot, but I think making a mon that is a middling breaker is an easier way for us to not make a difficult mon to balance.

Regarding the concern posed by Estronic, priority is still available for consideration in later stages and has not been removed entirely from this project. We simply agreed that priority is not enough of a role on its own to warrant discussion here.

Once polling has finished, we will move on to typing with spoo.
This thread will open after the Typing Leader, spoo, makes his first post.
 

spoo

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Alright y’all, welcome to the typing stage, otherwise known as the coolest and most important stage for every CAP process. I’m going to list out a few questions to help jumpstart discussion, but first I feel that it would be helpful to set some expectations for where we are right now:
  • For the first few days, I’d like to stay away from explicitly arguing for any type combinations. It’s fine if you want to mention a type combo to help illustrate a point or answer a question, but trying to push for any specific types would be premature at this point. I'll let you know when typing submissions formally open up.
  • This particular typing stage is also interesting because we still have to choose a second ability. Looking at this typing stage in the vacuum of CAP30i could lead to problems down the line; I think choosing a type combination that keeps our options open for Ability 2 is valuable to a certain extent. That being said, please do not argue for a type with the hopes that we will be getting a specific ability. What this might look like is arguing for Grass because you are banking on Flower Veil or arguing for a suboptimal defensive typing because you are banking on Filter. That kind of polljumpy thought process is dangerous more than it is productive.

With that out of the way, let’s get into the first batch questions I had prepared. Apologies if this is a lot to read - the important parts are bolded, but I thought it would be helpful to spend some time expanding on each question. Feel free to only answer the ones that are most interesting to you.
  • Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
    • This question is a surface-level one, but I still thought it would be helpful to get thinking about which specific types are conducive to accomplishing our role of utility wallbreaker. The interaction between our item (ie forme) and typing is a less obvious one, but still worth exploring.
  • How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
    • Does Tinted Lens afford us extra freedom in choosing an offensively “bad” STAB combo? If so, would it be preferable to choose a bad STAB combination that Tinted Lens allows to be successful, or should we choose “good” STABs that Tinted Lens then takes to the next level? To what extent should we rely on supplemental coverage when choosing our STAB combo - ie, how important are our STABs in the first place?
  • How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing?
    • This is somewhat related to my point earlier about thinking about this stage in the vacuum of Tinted Lens, as well as the previous question about the importance of STABs. If we choose a typing that Tinted Lens cannot fully exploit or interact with (eg Dragon) can we still “optimize” Tinted Lens through the use of coverage? How important is choosing a typing that specifically interacts with Tinted Lens as opposed to choosing a typing that may be less restrictive in Ability 2, or choosing a typing that is overall more solid but perhaps does not abuse Tinted Lens quite as well?
  • On what kind(s) of Pokemon would Tinted Lens be beneficial?
    • What sort of utility wallbreaker would appreciate Tinted Lens in accomplishing its goal? Which struggles of this imaginary Pokemon is Tinted Lens uniquely positioned to help overcome? What kinds of strengths/features of this Pokemon would only be able to be possible due to having Tinted Lens? Finally, how do these things tie into our typing? It may help to think about this in the context of already existing Pokemon.
  • How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?
    • Tinted Lens is a primarily offensive ability. That being said, how much should the defensive value of our typing factor into the calculus we do in this stage? 3-Attacks Melmetal is one example of a utility wallbreaker with a large amount of defensive value for a team, while something else like Spikes Ash Greninja has much less defensive use (these may not be the perfect examples, just the ones that immediately come to mind). Even something like NP Hydreigon can offer defensive utility to its team as a Ghost resist and Heatran answer despite not having much utility through the way of its moves. How much should we prioritize this?
  • Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?
    • This is something that I felt would inevitably come up in discussion since CAP30i cannot hold boots. When is this restriction of being weak to Rock beneficial for the process and final product, and when is this restriction detrimental? How necessary is this restriction in the first place? Does having a Rock weakness shoehorn CAP30i into a specific build (eg slow/tanky vs fast/frail)? What positive and negative effects might this have on our other forme?
 

dex

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Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
I think one of the benefits of Tinted Lens is that we can justify most types as being feasible for our role. Types that are not normally looked at as "great" offensive typings and are usually viewed as "defensive" operate in a new, offensive fashion, which is particularly exciting to me.
How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
Because of the item lock and Tinted Lens, our STAB options are extremely important and need to be discussed with care. Coverage on the other hand takes on a lesser role here compared to other processes.
How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing?
I would say Tinted Lens should interact quite a lot with our typing. This is bolstered by the item lock, and should absolutely be something we should look for in a typing.
On what kind(s) of Pokemon would Tinted Lens be beneficial?
Tinted Lens is quite a diverse ability, but Pokemon whose STABs are normally resisted by common defensive mons appreciate Tinted Lens for empowering them to break through those walls.
How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?
I would say there is some merit to having some defensive capability in typing due to the "utility" part of our role. Being able to justify using a utility move instead of firing off a powerful Tinted Lens attack is going to be a defining part of this process.
Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?
Honestly, I think being weak to Stealth Rock is a bit overblown. Being 4x weak is certainly not admirable, but being only 2x weak is totally acceptable in my eyes. This weakness can easily be offset in the movestage, and there are mons that are rock weak that perform breaking roles (see Volkraken and Miasmaw).
 
Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
Since 30i is intended to be a wallbreaker, it would be helpful to have a typing that helps it break walls. Ideally, we would want a typing that hits everything neutrally or better and hits some common walls supereffectively.

How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
A Tinted Lens user shouldn't need to rely on coverage. This is especially true for 30i, which would appreciate only needing two moveslots for the "wallbreaker" part of its role so it has two slots available for the "utility" part of its role.

How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing?
In my opinion, an optimized Tinted Lens user should be able to hit everything neutrally or better with STAB moves.

On what kind(s) of Pokemon would Tinted Lens be beneficial?
As I mentioned earlier, a utility wallbreaker that likes to run multiple utility moves would appreciate Tinted Lens. Additionally, any mon with commonly resisted STABs (for instance Grass or Bug, which are resisted by 7 types each) would gain more from Tinted Lens than a mon whose STABs have few resistances (for instance Dragon or Ghost, which are resisted by 1 type each).

How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?
I think this depends on what kind of utility we want 30i to provide.

Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?
Since 30i can't have boots, it would be very difficult to make it viable if it had a 4x Rock weakness (plus that would probably force 30b to wear boots, reducing the options for its role). A 2x Rock weakness would not be great but also wouldn't necessarily be a major issue.
 

dex

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In my opinion, an optimized Tinted Lens user should be able to hit everything neutrally or better with STAB moves.
I think you may have a misunderstanding of how we are using the term optimized for this concept. This goes for the rest of the process, but "optimized" refers to having the ability be a leading element of the CAP's design and avoiding "unhealthy" optimization.
Here's our agreed upon definition from concept assessment: Concept Assessment 1 optimization defintion
 
I think you may have a misunderstanding of how we are using the term optimized for this concept. This goes for the rest of the process, but "optimized" refers to having the ability be a leading element of the CAP's design and avoiding "unhealthy" optimization.
Here's our agreed upon definition from concept assessment: Concept Assessment 1 optimization defintion
That post does not claim to define optimization. It gives some guidelines, and nothing in those guidelines says we can't do anything beyond "having the ability be a leading element of the CAP's design" to optimize the ability.
 
I don't usually have much to say on these threads that isn't said better by someone else, but I have strong opinions on the first 3 questions, at least.
  • Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
    • This may be an odd answer to the question, but I think we should avoid types that would provide STABs to which other types may be immune. This would let us rely on our STAB and free up slots for more utility moves (see below). So, I think poison, electric, ground, dragon, psychic, normal, ghost, and fighting are especially relevant in that we would want to avoid them as primary attacking types.
  • How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
    • I think CAP30i should want to maximize its use of STABs rather than use many coverage moves. The increase in power from its item will allow it to function better as a wallbreaker, and being able to rely on one or two reliable STAB moves will open up move slots to enable better inclusion of utility moves.
  • How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing?
    • I think that it is very important to choose a typing that works well with Tinted Lens, and we can worry about CAP30b's ability later. Utility sets often carry only one offensive move, so I think it is vital that we choose STAB that won't get hard-stopped by an immunity.
  • On what kind(s) of Pokemon would Tinted Lens be beneficial?
    • Pokemon that have offensively poor typings spring to mind immediately. To a lesser extent, I think Pokemon that use Set-Up moves like Calm Mind would benefit as well, as they wouldn't need to set up as many times to achieve the same results against their checks.
  • How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?
    • I think it matters somewhat, as it increases opportunities to switch in and Tinted Lens patches up any offensive deficiencies a typing may offer, barring an immunity.
  • Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?
    • A 2x Rock weakness could be built around, but I think a 4x weakness would force CAP30i into a faster build or a massively defensive one with Recovery - constraining the rest of the process quite a bit. Plus, as others have mentioned, it would encourage CAP30b to use HDB, thus restricting flexibility.
 
Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
No, utility wallbreaker can mean anything and there isnt a mono typing that ties to the loose role of utility wallbreaker as well as being forced to hold an item.

How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing? / How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
It should be hand-in-hand with typing. Wallbreakers need to be using STAB in their kit, no exceptions. And the concept will be fulfilled the best the more value we can squeeze out of our Tinted Lens STABs. Typings like Ghost, Electric and Ground are complete duds in this concept- lists of resistances aside, Ghost usually gets covered by walls that can take the hit neutrally and Electric/Ground are met with immunities 90% of the time in this metagame. Not to say these cant be paired with other typings, but again we can squeeze much more juice out of another typing. I also see Tinted Lens as a very good reason to bolster our defensive capability through typing as Lens turns many bad offensive types into strong ones. Its important to not pick some ultra-wack all-round typing that becomes "Kinda cool actually!" with Tinted Lens and leave CAP30b with no defensive qualities whatsoever, heavily damaging its viability, or force it into an offensive role that has to compete with a Tinted Lens wallbreaker of identical typing. I either see us picking a great offensive + defensive typing here, or a great defensive and shitty offensive typing. Both of these give space for CAP30b to distinguish itself while allowing us to have an easy time with CAP30i.

How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?
It just matters as a pokemon that you have defensive merit in the current metagame. Even things like Dragapult, Kyurem and Zeraora can make their own switchins- Weavile is the closest thing to 0 defensive merit in the tier but literally everything else successful has some. Youd be hard-pressed to find a mon that can never switch in that you'd want on a team, let alone choosing that as a mon that is providing utility for your squad if that means rocks, defog, or something of that nature. Good typings are a way to set these projects off to a very strong and solid start rather than feeling forced to play catchup because it really does take work to throw a mon that is useless defensively on a team.
 
Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?

Really any type that has the tools to break through relevent defensive pokemon in the meta can function as a wallbreaker. Type combinations that have few resists and hit lots of mons super-effectively are good, as are types with high base-power moves. Regarding our forme/item, it would be nice to have a dual typing. On a monotype CAP 30 the item will be functionally the same as the regular type-boosting items. This is also the case if only one of our typings is used offensively (e.g. Lando-T doesn't benefit from the boost to it's flying stab so the custom item would be functionally the same as soft sand).

How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?

Tinted lens definitely gives us more freedom to use typically poor offensive typing on a breaker. I think both "bad" and "good" stab combos could be worthwhile, so long as they actually get a significant boost from Tinted Lens. A pokemon like dragapult only has 2 resists to tis STABs, so it gains comparatively less from Tinted Lens. In general it would be nice to rely on supplemental coverage as little as possible. One of the main arguments for Utility Wallbreaker was that Tinted Lens frees up moveslots to be used for utility, so having a typing that relies on coverage even with Tinted Lens kinda works against that role. For this reason I think we need to be careful with what immunities there are to our chosen STAB combo. A Poison/Ground type would want coverage to deal with steel flying-types for example. The exception to all of this is coverage moves that also provide utility, for example a physical breaker could run Psychic Fangs as coverage to hit Toxapex and Buzzwole super-effectively while also using it to clear screens (there are probably better examples of utility coverage but that's all I could think of off the top of my head).

How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing?

I'd definitely prefer a type that substantially interacts with Tinted Lens. Relying on coverage to "optimise" tinted lens breaks the synergy between Tinted Lens and 30i's item, as well as filling up movelsots that could be used utility. I also don't thinking there's too much conflict between choosing a type that interacts with Tinted Lens and keeping the options open for ability 2. If anything Tinted Lens helps, as we don't have to pick such an offensively optimised typing in order to function effectively as a breaker.

On what kind(s) of Pokemon would Tinted Lens be beneficial?

I think that slower/tankier wallbreakers appreciate tinted lens the most. Slower breakers have to be more careful with prediction as they may not outspeed mons that switch into them (Nidoking is a good example of this), so having just one or two very spammable attacks eases that prediction. Tanky breakers appreciate the wider pool of mons that they can beat 1v1 with tinted lens. Slower/tankier breakers obviously appreciate having a good defensive typing.

How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?

As I mentioned with the previous question, I like the idea of a slower/bulkier breaker which obviously appreciate a good defensive typing. Tinted Lens also does a lot to improve the offensive qualities of typically defensive typings, so picking a more defensive typing could synergise pretty well. I don't think that picking a good defensive typing shoul be our first priority, but it's definitely something worth considering.


Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?

I think we would definitely want to avoid a 4x rocks weakness. While we could reasoably balace on mon around a 4x rocks weakness, trying to make this work for two different forms sounds like a pain. A 2x weakness is more manageable, and could be a good way to balance an already strong offensive STAB typing that gets further boosted by Tinted Lens. A 2x rocks weakness could be a bit restrictive on our other form as it will likely want to run boots, but it's really a pretty minor restriction.
 

Wulfanator

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That post does not claim to define optimization. It gives some guidelines, and nothing in those guidelines says we can't do anything beyond "having the ability be a leading element of the CAP's design" to optimize the ability.
I would like to point out that it was a conclusion established from an earlier post.

The question that yielded that answer was as follows:
Given the ambiguity of the term “optimize,” it is probably in our interest to define what it means in the context of this project. This would establish uniform criteria for determining success or failure. What qualifies as optimization, and how will we know we have achieved it for CAP 30? It may seem obvious, but from what little I have seen already, some users are beginning to operate under different interpretations of our concept.
which can be found in my OP in concept assessment 1 here

The detailed conclusion that was posted earlier in the thread read:
From the answers regarding definition of optimization, it would appear everybody is sharing similar thoughts. We want the ability to be a leading element of the mon’s functionality. The example shared by The Metric System better shapes this expectation. Magnet Pull established the primary function of Magnezone for the past several generations. Magnezone lacks the tools to fully punish steels, especially with the removal of hidden power, but the ability is still integral to how the mon is used. Trace on Jumbao is equally defining regarding how it is used in CAP. Part of kjnjkmjk1 answer established that optimizing does not mean having the ability selected. We want to avoid a situation that we create mons and the ability is only situationally relevant/has no meaningful contribution to its success.

Full optimization appears to be an extreme some users are wanting to avoid, at least in the case of specific abilities. We would rather prioritize a healthy final product as opposed to meeting concept to the nth degree. This has led Brambane to voice that optimization is a spectrum and we will need to address each ability on a case-by-case basis. The ability will determine how much exploration can be done before developing a toxic result. Using inspiration from NitioWO post, that spectrum should be bound between simple synergy of mechanics to characteristics that compound on one another to maximize the significance of the ability. Where the extremes to avoid are equivalent to when we considered Merciless Smokomodo (free toxics/crits on everything or SE hits on toxic-immune mons)
This post can be found here.

The post highlighted by dex was a shortened version of the longer post. Hopefully this clears some of those issues regarding optimized and definition.
 
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  • Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
Given how important STABs are going to be, I'd agree that types with common immunities in the meta aren't the best here, purely because we need the extra moveslots for utility and don't want to spend them on coverage. Beyond that, I don't think we need to go looking for a type that has a lot of resistances offensively just to take advantage of Tinted Lens. Tinted Lens gives us the leeway to think about the defensive merits of a typing without worrying too much about the offensive side. Bug/Grass, for example, is resisted by basically half the tier, but is terrible defensively. This also really messes with 30b, which will not have access to Tinted Lens and will be left with garbage STABs. I will also mention that there are some types that offer access to more reliable, higher powered moves than other types. This may be useful to consider when thinking about spammability with Tinted Lens; I think having to rely on moves like Stone Edge or Focus Blast would work against the ability
  • How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
STABs are more important than coverage because we need the extra moveslots for utility. Unless there's a clean physical/special split between 30i and 30b, it's probable that 30i will have access to some coverage anyway. I think the challenge here is building a mon that would rather just run its STABs anyway, to take advantage of the item. Given TL is going to affect the coverage moves too, coverage might be run alongside STABs (or a single STAB), but I wouldn't see that as a failure as long as 30i doesn't have to rely on coverage.
  • How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing?
Yes? I guess? Any attacking move we click is going to interact with Tinted Lens. TL doesn't care if that move is STAB or not. STAB boosts power alongside our item, which makes for a more effective breaker, and Tinted Lens helps with resists. If this question is implying that an attacking STAB with more resists is interacting with TL more, then I don't think it is super important. Like I said above, picking a typing just because it has a bunch of resists isn't the way to go.
  • How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?
Personally, I think defensive merit is key, especially in terms of longevity. Given how vague the idea of a utility wallbreaker is (Ash gren and Melmetal are completely different mons that play very differently), I think very simply, the more times a mon can come in during a game, the more utility it can provide. In the same vein, the more times it can come in, the more opportunities it has to wallbreak.
  • Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?
A SR weakness wouldn't be the end of the world, but would definitely not be optimal for 30i. However this would also mean an SR weakness on 30b. Examples of Rock-weak mons operating successfully in the meta without HDB are limited, and they are usually in purely offensive roles (Kyurem and Blace come to mind). Given we decided not to include item-dependent abilities earlier in the process to prevent restricting the items on both formes, I think a Rock weakness would put unnecessary pressure on 30b's process to ensure it isn't entirely dependent on HDB.

It wasn't posed as a question, but I thought I'd bring up Knock Off. Given 30i will be pretty much the only mon in the entire meta able to take reduced damage from Knock and not lose its item, I think it would be a waste to make it weak to Dark. A Dark resist would be incredible but isn't necessary, but I would heavily prefer to avoid a Dark weakness.
 
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Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
Yes, I think for the role of Utility Wallbreaker it is beneficial to have at least one STAB move, that threatens common defensive Pokémon Super effectively.
This obviously helps in Wallbreaking, as it increases the power of 30is moves its using against these, regardless of its power granted by its stats and move base power.

In addition to a typing with good SE coverage on walls, a type combination, that grants access to high power STABs is beneficial, as it increases the power output as well.

Conversly, a type with STABs on strong utility moves would help compress utility and offensive power for our intended role, similar to how we build Astrolotl, so high poweroutput shouldn’t be the only consideration, when looking for STABs.

I also agree, that a dual typing makes the most sense for 30i, considering its locked item and the boost it grants.

How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
I think we don’t necessarily need to create a Pokémon, which doesn’t want any coverage move.
To actualize our intend role, I think both a typing, that doesn’t need or barely needs coverage, so it has more room for utility, or a typing, that can compress utility and offensive power into the offensive moves it carries can work. (Eg movesets like: Fire Blast/Focus Blast/Stealth Rock/Taunt vs. Extreme Speed/Drain Punch/Knock Off/Rapid Spin vs. Grav Apple/Storm Throw/Leech Seed/Parting Shot)

How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing?
I think Tinted Lens should definitely have and impact on the spammability of the moves of our chosen Typing. I don’t think though, that this requires traditionally bad offensive typings. Even types that share only one common resist will profit immensely from Tinted Lens. Think types like Ghost or Psychic/Dark, Dark/Fighting and Fighting/Grass for example.
Obviously it will also boost typings with more than one shared resistance like fairy/steel or normal/flying even more.
Typings that hit a lot SE, while having resists removed, are probably the most ideal options in terms of hard optimization (stuff like Fighting/flying or Rock/Ground
The only type combinations, that wouldn’t really benefit from Tinted Lens are types, which can be hard walled by certain Pokémon through immunities, like ground or fire/poison. These are the only STABs, that are likely to not interact with tinted lens and should be avoided imo.


I will also mention that there are some types that offer access to more reliable, higher powered moves than other types. This may be useful to consider when thinking about spammability with Tinted Lens; I think having to rely on moves like Stone Edge or Focus Blast would work against the ability
I think this is something to consider as well for choosing our STABs. Looking at lower power options with more consistency might be a way to leverage tinted lens as well. Inaccurate or stat dropping moves (and to a lesser extend recoil moves, reduce the reliability of 30i, which feels antithetical to Tinted Lenses Boost in reliablility.
 
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Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
  • Types with good defensive profiles that also are strong against certain defensive pokemon seem extremely relevant to discussion on tinted lens. Furthermore, if that type tends to struggle against other defensive pokemon as well as have tons of utility, its place in discussion seems incredibly relevant. Grass is one of the big examples of this, as it features some good defensive utility in the form of good resistances, is strong against many of the bulky water types in the tier and has many great utility moves, while also struggling against the defensive steel and flying types in the tier.
How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
  • While coverage can also be beneficial, STAB is extremely important for 30i. Not only does out item boost the power of STAB moves, but TL is at its best when gaining that additional boost off of STAB while also powering through a pokemon that would normally resist the attack. This means that 30i will need STABs that pair well with TL to break through many of the bulkier pokemon in the tier.
How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing?
  • Again, since Tinted Lens doesn't provide a power boost beyond resisted targets, our type needs to be one that can pose a threat with powerful STABs that can make bulky pokemon pressured to stay in.
On what kind(s) of Pokemon would Tinted Lens be beneficial?
  • WIP
How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?
  • A huge part of making a wallbreaker work is the ability for it to face the walls that it can threaten, and as such needs to come in on attacks they'd ususally use. 30i helps us with this, allowing Knock-Off to be crippled and thus allowing one way to switch in on some defensive staples of the tier such as Clefable or Toxapex. It is also important that 30i is capable of taking other attacks upon switchin as well.
Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?
  • Because we can't hold an item separate from the one required, making the pokemon Stealth Rock weak seems particularly poor, as it will make it harder for us to switch in often on even the defensive pokemon we're designed to scare out. While this might've been a decent option had we chosen late-game cleaner, it's much harder to accept with the premise that this pokemon has to come in and out of battle decently often to take care of bulkier pokemon.
 

Estronic

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I haven't read anyone else's posts yet, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything. I just want to make sure my opinion is entirely unaffected by anything.
Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
There are plenty of types we can work with for this stage, though it's important that we must keep in mind what exactly we want CAP30i to target. For example, Electric-type moves can target many defensive Pokemon either neutrally or super effectively, but with Tinted Lens in mind, we would also potentially be able to dent Pokemon that resist Electric like Grass- and Dragon-types. Of course, this is a very broad and simple example, but I just would like to point out how important it is that we should establish what we want CAP30i to target a little bit so our typing process can be a bit easier. It doesn't have to be a very specific list, but rather just general groups of Pokemon common within the metagame.
How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
We can honestly go either way with this, but in my opinion, I think it's important to focus a bit more on CAP30i's STAB typings. The damage boosts to its STAB moves from its item is a very nice one, and I believe that in order to fulfill our goal in optimizing Tinted Lens (in a healthy way), we should put some emphasis on making sure that its typing allows it to take advantage of its STAB moves greatly. We shouldn't ignore coverage moves, though; Tinted Lens right off the bat makes it easier for coverage moves to be used without losing as much momentum within a game.
How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing?
I believe that Tinted Lens should have a lot of interaction with our typing, allowing it to fully take advantage of all of the damage boosts it gets from its item to Tinted Lens itself. Nothing much else to add here.
On what kind(s) of Pokemon would Tinted Lens be beneficial?
This is a question with a lot of good answers, but I'll try to keep it simple. Any wallbreaker that appreciates another teammate bringing it in safely would benefit a lot from Tinted Lens, as it can come in against a lot more Pokemon and become threatening immediately. From there, we can do a lot with it; we can set entry hazards, clear entry hazards, inflict status, and more. We'll be able to force a lot more switches and gain more momentum than other wallbreakers can thanks to Tinted Lens, so it would be best that CAP30i has something to take advantage of that.
How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?
I definitely think that in order for CAP30i to be able to utilize its utility effectively, it should have at least some defensive merit. Obviously, we don't want it to be a substitute for a wall, but being able to not get potentially 2HKOed by the Pokemon we want it to do well against is important.
Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?
Being at least 2x weak to Stealth Rock should be acceptable. The only issue I have with that, though, is that it could cause a ripple effect and make CAP30b require Heavy-Duty Boots and thus restricting our process a bit, but making it 2x weak to Stealth Rock as a whole shouldn't be a huge problem for CAP30i. If it's going to have that much power in its attacks, it should require some evaluation in regards to getting it on the field and the potential outcomes because of it.
 
Would it not be better to determine the targets we wish to utilize Tinted Lens or STAB SE against before we determine typing?

As a utility Wallbreaker, stacking STAB and targeting points of weakness in those mon we are intending to use Tinted Lens against will refine our choices of typing. Eg If there is a range of pokemon weak to Bug so that we select Bug as the typing, there is a 30BP difference between Att/SpA. And for those where Phys and Special BP are similar, say Dark, are we targeting mon which are Phys or Special weak, as this could then influence which other typing it could be paired with.
 
I don’t think we should fix a List of mons we want to beat already.
I can agree though, that it is important for our typing decision, to look at common walls in the meta and which typings could be promising in terms of breaking a few (not all) of them.
I still think, that having a SE STAB against some high ranked walls, is going to be highly important in budgeting the powerlevel of 30i.
 
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Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
While a Tinted Lens utility wallbreaker would appreciate a high-powered nuke, especially with STAB, if we want to wallbreak purely with utility moves like Knock Off or Scald, it's easier to do so if the mon gets STAB on those utility moves (e.g. a Dark- or Water-type).

How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
At least from my experience analyzing Balanced Hackmons sets, I'd caution against selecting “good” STABs that Tinted Lens then takes to the next level - Tinted Lens on mons with good offensive STABs can either make the mon get unresisted STABs in practice that also get super-effective hits on too high a percentage of the meta and therefore cut into our power budget quite strongly (Gen 7 BH freed Primal Groudon may thankfully be the only example I can think of - it took advantage of Tinted Lens with STAB V-Create and Thousand Arrows) or look suboptimal compared to other offensive abilities like Adaptability, Sheer Force, Tough Claws, Steelworker, and -ates that actually boost neutral hits (e.g. BH Palkia picking Adaptability instead, BH Xerneas picking Pixilate instead, both BH Kartana and Dialga splitting between Tinted Lens and Steelworker). Picking mediocre to bad offensive STABs for CAP 30 is the most likely to not result in us regretting picking Tinted Lens for 30i.

Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?
Ironically, some of the offensive typings that can best abuse Tinted Lens, such as Bug (gets the nuke Megahorn, gets the pivot move U-turn, gets Bug Buzz to bypass Substitutes, resisted by a metric ton), Flying (gets the recoil nuke Brave Bird and the unreliable nuke Hurricane, reasonable neutral coverage, resisted by Steel/Rock/Electric), and Ice (good offensive typing, gets the priority move Ice Shard, resisted by Steel/Fire/Water), grant a 2× weakness to Stealth Rock. As much as a Stealth Rock-weak typing hampers utility wallbreaker CAP 30i's ability to come in and repeatedly threaten to break walls and makes 30b increasingly tempted to wear Heavy-Duty Boots, one must admit that such a typing is quite tempting to select as an offensive typing that Tinted Lens greatly enhances.
 
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How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?
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Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?
These two kinda go hand in hand. Being weak to rocks means that we cannot afford to take another hit since we start the match off at either 75% or even 50%, depending on just how weak to rocks we are. This means we would be relying more on raw stats to quickly to our job more than anything, which is better for a pure breaker, cleaner, or choice user than it is for a Utility Wallbreaker in my opinion. We want to stay in for a few turns or switch in multiple times in a game to be a proper threat. Our defensive merit directly influences how often we can switch in. For those reasons, I think we should steer clear from a combination that is defensively incapable of switching in and not evaporating immediately.
 
Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
Something that might be worth looking at are typings that have a lot of super effective coverage. Fighting in particular is an interesting case because it has one of the highest super effective spread among types, and has just as many types resistant to it, being 5 each. For a Fighting type wallbreaker, being able to hit resists extremely hard is really good, especially with good stab options like close combat at our disposal. It also has the benefit of resisting stealth rocks meaning we could pair it up with a rocks weak type to reduce the nasty weakness 30i would have for rocks.
 
  • How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
    • The point to coverage is to hit Pokemon super effectively. While there is no point to using an ability boosted coverage move over STAB, coverage will be important for determining what walls 30i cannot break. That said, we must be very careful about giving CAP30i coverage options that make it impossible to check reliably.
  • How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing?
    • Tinted Lens is the crux of CAP30i's wallbreaking capabilities. The idea of using Tinted Lens without STAB strikes me as remarkably pointless, because any coverage attack is effectively a neutral non-STAB attack. The idea makes even less sense when we consider that CAPi is restricted to having an item that gives its STAB attacks a 1.2 boost. Unless that coverage move hits harder than CAP30i's STAB attacks, there is no real reason to use it beyond what that coverage hits super effectively.
  • On what kind(s) of Pokemon would Tinted Lens be beneficial?

    When it comes to what the Pokemon should be good for, Tinted Lens mons are uniquely powerful partners with sweepers of the same offencive type. However, given the item restriction, it is VERY difficult to justify making CAP30i anything other than a bulkier wallbreaker, because CAP30i just doesn't have the Choice boost that makes Tinted Lens wallbreakers viable in other metagames.
  • How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?
    • CAP30i should be a Pokemon with at least some defencive utility. If CAP30i isn't going to have boosting moves, it is going to require Taunt to beat resisting walls, and it will need to take a couple hits from those walls before CAP30i can beat those walls.
  • Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?

    Having a Rocks weakness will make it difficult to reliably use CAP30i for its defencive utility and place a restriction on its use offencively. Players will (at most) be able to bring it in 5 times, barring a Sub Seed set. Any attempt to alleviate this pressure would require a great deal of team support to remove hazards. I strongly support avoiding a typing that is weak to hazards.

Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
  • The fun thing about Tinted Lens is that it works with any type. That said, types that pair well with the Ability have a large amount of resistances. While Grass and Bug have been pointed out, Steel, Fighting, Fire, Poison, and Ice all have 4 or 5 resistances. Simultaneously, i would like to caution against typings with STABs that are 4x resisted by commonly found Pokemon. Any combo of Grass/Bug/Poison for instance is walled entirely by Heatran, Corvinight, Celesteela, and Scizor, rendering CAP30i useless against several strong mons.
Given what I've said, I think the most relevant would be Steel, given its weak coverage and many resistances to compliment CAP30i's role. A Steel Tinted Lens user would have immediately obvious offencive and defencive utility. However, one type I would like to point out seems counter-intuitive because it has the second fewest resistances out of any offencive typing: Normal. Normal type has a lot of powerful moves at their disposal, such as Boomburst, Extremespeed, and Head Charge. Fighting is in the opposite boat: it has 5 resists: Flying, Fairy, Psychic, Poison, Bug. Steel and Fighting are both types that could be used on other sweepers on CAP30i's team (following the "Spam" team archetype), but players may be hard-pressed to make a "Normal Spam" team that doesn't rely on Obstagoon. Out of the three, Steel strikes me as most interesting given the type's prevalence among many strong walls and its resistance to itself, making CAP30i a potential Steel-killer and Steel partner. However, Fighting boasts both an SR and KOff resist, which would add to CAP30i's utility.
 
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I've seen a few comments about how we shouldn't choose STABs that have immunities. I disagree with that notion completely. 30i will probably already be the least prediction-reliant Pokemon in the entire metagame, no exaggeration. Tinted Lens, coupled with the fact that we're unable to hold a choice item and therefore not locked into the first move we click, means that making good predictions will be less relevant with this mon than perhaps any other mon that has existed.

I don't believe that giving our STABs at least one immunity is mandatory, but introducing a tiny bit of prediction to a mon that can otherwise click moves with complete impunity is not a dealbreaker by any stretch. As long as our STABs are not literally Normal/Fighting or Ground/Electric or whatever, we'll be fine.
 
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dex

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Having a Rocks weakness will make it difficult to reliably use CAP30i for its defencive utility and place a restriction on its use offencively. Players will (at most) be able to bring it in 5 times, barring a Sub Seed set. Any attempt to alleviate this pressure would require a great deal of team support to remove hazards. I strongly support avoiding a typing that is weak to hazards.
I hard, hard disagree with this notion. There are plenty of rocks weak breakers that are viable in the tier, namely Kyurem, Blacephalon, Volkraken, and Miasmaw. The notion that Hazard Removal requires some "great deal" of team support is just incorrect. Hazard removal is quite easy to fit on most teams, and running consistent removal is a key part of pretty much every team composition outside of hyper offense. Being rocks weak is in no way a reason to not consider a type.
 
I hard, hard disagree with this notion. There are plenty of rocks weak breakers that are viable in the tier, namely Kyurem, Blacephalon, Volkraken, and Miasmaw. The notion that Hazard Removal requires some "great deal" of team support is just incorrect. Hazard removal is quite easy to fit on most teams, and running consistent removal is a key part of pretty much every team composition outside of hyper offense. Being rocks weak is in no way a reason to not consider a type.
Given that setup is no longer being considered for this project due to the risk it poses, these routes would rely heavily on raw power to break fatter mons. Similar to offensive pivots, this type of mon would be forcing out the opponent by threatening a KO, but would be using utility moves to better position the entire team for success instead of pivoting. Twave Melmetal, Scarf Knock+Defog Kartana, and Taunt+Toxic Heatran are all potential ways of achieving this type of role. This would make hazard setting, hazard removal, status infliction, cleric support, and item manipulation in the forms of knock off and trick all forms of utility I can see being considered.
None of your examples fit the Utility Wallbreaker role. Sacrificing momentum to support the team will more often than not place pressure on the wallbreaker to switch out. Any team using CAP30i is going to be under pressure to keep rocks off the field. Part of the allure of the utility wallbreaker is its capability to generate momentum, and the typing should facilitate it.
 

MrDollSteak

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  • Are there any individual types especially relevant to our selected role and forme?
    • I think the key for us is to choose types with great neutral coverage. One or two important super-effective interactions against some of the key walls in the metagame will likely also be important to assist with our role as wallbreaker.
  • How important are our STABS vs coverage to CAP30i?
    • I do believe that we want to be prioritising our STAB moves over coverage options. This isn't to say that we artificially limit coverage per se, but that clicking our stabs is more desirable. I think this is fairly easy to manage with good neutral coverage considering both the default STAB boost and the item's boost. If we can achieve similar damage outcomes with our strong STAB moves to a super effective hit on a weaker move then I think we can say we're achieving our outcomes.
  • How much do we want Tinted Lens to interact with our typing?
    • I think this is crucial to how we want our Pokemon to play out. The benefit is that Tinted Lens does a lot to ensure that most typings will be able to achieve some success. They key is however to choose STAB types that as mentioned previously have strong neutral coverage. There are a lot that will achieve this off Tinted Lens singlehandedly which thus means that we can really start to prioritise our defensive utility.
  • How much does defensive merit matter to a utility wallbreaker?
    • I think this is generally quite crucial but not the be all and end all. Melmetal for example has great defensive qualities afforded by its type, whereas something like Greninja in previous generations had next to none. With this in mind I think we can likely hit a happy medium as we do not need to worry as much about the offensive potency of our STABs due to the Tinted Lens boost.
  • Lastly, what might the full effects be of choosing a type combination weak to Stealth Rock?
    • As much as people have argued that being 2x weak to Stealth Rock won't make or break us, I really have to disagree and say that I think any form of stealth rock weakness will realistically be crippling. As is clear from the current metagame, wallbreakers that are weak to Rocks just sadly aren't viable, even Miasmaw who has incredibly strong STABs with priority as well as powerful coverage options of CC and EQ cannot effectively function in the metagame as a Choiced breaker because of its Rock weakness limiting the number of times it can come in. While we have more flexibility because we aren't choice locked - our inability to run boots will really hamstring this form's ability to come in and continue breaking to an extent that I think is undesirable. Flying is the only exception I will mention here as being immune to Spikes in effect cancels out some of the grievances here.
 
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