CAP 30 - Part 4 - Typing Discussion

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LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Adding to the dogpile here, but yeah the two Fairy-type options are absolutely ludicrous and need to not be on there.

Steel/Fairy is very much the most egregious example, simply because what those two types offer together is just straight up nuts. Steel/Fairy by itself is straight up a top 3 defensive typing in the entire game, offer two immunities, nine resistances and only two weaknesses. I understand that this intention is to utilize the defensive prowess, but I think with the consideration that we will be using this on a utility wall breaker when Fairy is also a deceptively good offensive typing make it a very scary and very easily broken typing with Tinted Lens if not done carefully. The Magearna comparisons have tended to come up for the typing, and they are not unfounded comparisons simply because this would share quite a lot with it. There is also the point that due to the framework we will essentially be dropping not one but two seperate Steel/Fairy types into the meta at once, which I have a hard time really seeing being healthy or balanced, especially since we have absolutely no idea how 30b will turn out. I'm not saying that this type is completely immortal (it'd really struggle against Heatran without coverage) and if we were making something like Klefki it'd be more fine, but with the direction we are going I hardly see how we can still keep this balanced.

Water/Fairy has a different issue entirely, which is more the viability of Tapu Fini squashing a lot of its potential. Its a pretty good mon right now and it covers a lot of territory that we might hit with CAP30, and the extra stipulation of making two mons leaves the meta pretty cramped. Also gonna say that I do have a similar problem with Bug/Steel considering how good Scizor is right now, but its not a Fairy-type so I hate it less.

If we did want a Fairy on the slate, then I would probably say Normal/Fairy would be the best option since I think it steps on less toes than Fire/Fairy (considering that Fire/Psychic and Fire/Fighting are both on slate) while still offering some defensive utility and utilizing Tinted Lens well enough. I also support the idea of Water/Grass being a solid replacement for Water/Fairy as it retains a lot of traits.

Lets cover some other typings from the slate and suggested for slate.

Fire/Psychic is my personal favorite right now, as together these two typing offer some very interesting resistances in the meta and the serious possibility of Future Sight is very fun. Being weak to both Knock Off and Stealth Rock kind of hurts our longevity (tho the former hurts way less due to Griseous Orb nerfing Knock Off to 65) I think it is a very fun typing and we can definetely work past these for an interesting set of mons without cutting in on Victini's territory.

I simultaneously love and hate Ice/Fighting but I still think it fits well on slate. On one hand, its obviously a pretty terrible defensive typing and I worry one of 30i or 30b might fall into the issues that Crabominable faces as a mon if we aren't optimized for offense in both forms. On the other hand, I love how unapologetically offensive focused it is and I think that is really interesting, considering how strong it will be with both Tinted Lens and Griseous Orb for 30i. I do think the challenge of the typing emerges in 30b, but overall its heaven-or-hell approach is just so intriguing to me.

Call out my hypocrisy considering how much I just praised Ice/Fighting despite its defensive flaws, but I am really skeptical of Grass/Flying. I think it could be really solid with Tinted Lens for the reasons others have stated, but I worry more than basically any other typing about how it would perform as 30b. Obviously this is hypotheticals but I'm cocerned it would really restrict design space going into Ability 2 since you would have to be compensating quite hard for the pretty subpar typing it is overall. I'm kinda just rambling and I wouldn't hate it on slate, but you can bet it'd be at the bottom of my ballot.
 
I do not have too much to say that hasn't been said already. Even if I have a bit of bias, I support Water/Grass replacing Water/Fairy on the slate. Like many other posters, I feel that it is a typing that doesn't benefit from Tinted Lens as much as most other typings on the slate, but even if it is not Water/Grass, I feel that there are many typing combinations that are much more worthy of the slot than Water/Fairy.

The other thing is that, since there seems to be quite a bit of pushback, it is worth considering replacing Ice/Fighting with Electric/Fighting. I really really do like Ice/Fighting, probably more than Electric/Fighting, but between those two and Fire/Fighting, the Ice combo has a lot more in common with Fire (potent offensive typing with many resists) than it does with Electric (targeted wallbreaker offensive typing with common immunity checks.) Especially so as all of these typings are paired with Fighting (potent offensive typing with many resists.) If we are to get 2 Fighting types on the slate, I feel we would get more variety from Fire/Fighting and Electric/Fighting as the two choices on the slate, rather than the two currently on it. Again, I love Ice/Fighting a lot, but this is a route that is worth considering in my opinion.
 
I’m just gonna say real quick that I’m somewhat skeptical of Grass/Flying. I feel that while perhaps offensively it works very well for Tinted Lens that it’s a combo that puts immense pressure on 30b, perhaps only matched by Ice/Fighting which I don’t want on the slate either, although I would get why it may remain. Also, if you want a more balanced Steel-type, I feel Steel/Psychic may fit the bill purely for its weakness to Knock Off and Dragapult helping balance out the strengths of the combo to produce at least a slightly more restrained Steel combo.
 
Here's a last minute case for Grass/Steel. The type received a bunch of discussion on the Discord early on, but never made it to the thread, so this is an attempt to get it some sunlight here.

Grass/Steel falls in the general category of "good defensive typing is improved offensively by Tinted Lens". Grass/Steel is already very well known for its defensive prowess, with only two weakness (Fire and Fighting) and a bevy of useful resistances. On the other hand, while it is not offensively impressive on its own, it is capable of scoring super effective hits on defensive Pokemon like Arghonaut, Tapu Fini, Clefable, and Slowking, as well as others like Weavile, Urshifu-R, Jumbao, and Colossoil. Tinted Lens gives it a very helpful boost in allowing both STABs to hit Steel types (and Zapdos) neutrally, leaving Heatran as the only Pokemon that completely walls this type. As has been established by other Grass-type submissions, Grass has access to a decent list of utility moves, strong nukes and midrange attacking options, and Steel provides a little extra with more midrange attacking options and priority (along with more awkward nukes in Heavy Slam and Gyro Ball).

Now, for the elephant in the room: Ferrothorn and Kartana both exist. I (and others) have gone on record as disliking Water/Fairy because of Tapu Fini's versatility and sets in multiple different roles, which places constraints on the design space for Water/Fairy. Similar concerns have been voiced on Discord regarding Bug/Steel and Scizor, which is capable of physically bulky and specially bulky sets, various utility roles with removal (Defog) and/or trapping (Sand Tomb), and even more offensively oriented SD sets. However, Ferrothorn and Kartana do not have that level of versatility. Ferrothorn is currently extremely defensive and utility-oriented, while Kartana rarely deviates from strictly offensive sets. I believe that, even with two forms, there is still some design space left to us in between the all-out attacker and wall roles, especially since neither Ferrothorn nor Kartana have touched any of the attacking utility moves that have been discussed for Grass in this thread, and neither have ever come close to going special or mixed.
 
I don't have much new to add, and am writing mainly to second several opinions on the adjustments to the slate.

I already wrote about how I love Electric/Fighting. I would lobby for it to replace Fire/Fighting, Ice/Fighting, or Electric/Steel, since it seems that one of these is likely to go. Of the three, I really dislike Electric/Steel's 4x weakness to the omnipresent Ground attacks, and as such think it is being overhyped for its defensive potential. But it seems to be the most secure and well-supported of the three, and replacing it and not the others would mean three Fighting types, so it would probably come down to swapping one of the other two. Of these, the whole schtick of Ice/Fighting is that it is unabashedly an offensive type for those who want to go that route, which gives it some value for being slated. I agree to an extent that this may make it harder to differentiate the second form, but I think the idea we can't differentiate it from Weavile and Kyurem is nonsense. With Fire/Fighting I think it has some nice defensive attributes but is overall inferior to Electric/Fighting at targeting the most notorious walls, and as such this would be my pick for the one to replace.

It's clear that there is pretty unanimous opposition to Steel/Fairy and Water/Fairy. I share the concerns for the former and, as the submitter of Water/Fairy, have myself been convinced on concerns on the latter. I'd like to echo Steel/Bug being a good replacement for a Steel type and Normal/Fairy being a good replacement for a Fairy type. I'm a bit less sold on Water/Grass as a Water replacement, but I think it could work.

I frankly don't understand the push for Grass/Flying or Fire/Psychic. For Grass/Flying, the super-effective coverage is pretty garbage, so we'd be riding mainly on the neutral coverage afforded by Tinted Lens, which, given the atrocious defensive typing, probably won't be enough. Fire/Psychic's weakness to both Rocks and Knock Off is nasty for this concept. Maybe one is fine, but both? I don't care that Knock will be base 65. It will still chip us heavily, which is squandering one of 30i's great inherent strengths.

I can also get behind swapping Dark/Flying for Poison/Flying, not because I think the former isn't good for Tinted Lens, but because I agree that Mandibuzz and Moltres already occupying opposite builds will make it hard to differentiate two CAP30 forms.
 
To continue with some of the sentiment in the thread, I believe that Steel/Fairy, Water/Fairy and Ice/Fighting should not make the slate. I believe that Steel/Bug, Water/Grass and Poison/Flying should instead be slated.

Against:
Steel/Fairy:
I know I’m not alone in the concern around unleashing two Steel/Fairy types on the meta. Magearna is a frequently quoted example for how this typing can be frustrating to play against, but the raw defensive and offensive power behind it make it a powerful typing for most concepts. For Tinted Lens I would prefer a type that struggles a bit more and finds power in the utilization of Tinted Lens while still retaining a higher stat budget and more utility choices for 30b as well.

Water/Fairy: I initially liked Water/Fairy but seeing some of the sentiment in the discussion I’ve come around. Primarina is a good example of how this typing can work as a breaker, but it also does show how the offensive capabilities work well without needing Tinted Lens.

Ice/Fighting: If this wasn’t a two forme framework I would love the risk/reward with this typing, I almost put forward Steel/Ice which is even worse defensively. I feel this typing really throws 30b under the bus, as we would really need to make two breakers. Making a breaker and a sweeper kind of dissolves the line between the two having defined roles.

For:
Steel/Bug:
I much prefer this typing because Bug attacks have so much built in utility on the special and physical side. It still takes advantage of our Knock Off immunity while bringing a lot more interesting power to the table in the movepool section. It has the defining Fire weakness to consider as well, which I think is a perfect part of our power budget.

Water/Grass: This typing is a great user of Tinted Lens, with the shared resistances in Grass and Dragon as standouts for seeing this ability used more frequently. I think this is a great balance of offence and defence, and can find a clear niche for both formes in the meta. Plus I want to switch in on Landorus Knock Off with absolute impunity.

Poison/Flying: Flying is absolutely one of my favourite type choices, offensively it benefits hugely from Tinted Lens but it brings in a Ground immunity and SR weakness that make for a balanced choice that can go a number of different ways. This typing hasn’t seen a lot of effective and prominent users but has the flexibility and utility attack options to be a real contender. I don’t see any reason to only slate one Flying type.
 
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dex

As far as I know, I'm immortal
is a Pre-Contributor
Steel/Bug should in no way be slated for the exact same reason that Water/Fairy should not be that I listed recently.

You have to keep in mind that we are making two mons here. If we choose Steel/Bug, both forms are directly competing with Scizor for a teamslot. This is different than other typings, for instance Electric/Steel competing with Magnezone, because Magnezone has one role that it fulfills. Scizor can run about 3-4 different sets, all of which are viable. It is a phys def pivot, a spdef pivot, a swords dance sweeper, a Defogger, and a trapper. Directly competing with Scizor is an absolute death sentence for at least one if not both of CAP 30's forms.

I said this before, but the exact same is true of Water/Fairy. Directly competing with Tapu Fini for a teamslot is a surefire way to make one of the forms completely outclassed. Tapu Fini is another mon that runs a wide variety of sets with great success, and trying to justify using both of CAP 30's forms over Fini will either fail or result in a stupidly broken mon. Neither typing should be slated.

Edit: I also want to mention here why Steel/Psychic would not be a good choice for this mon.

I'll compare Steel/Psychic to Fire/Psychic and talk about why Fire/Psychic is far superior at taking advantage of Tinted Lens. The mons that Steel/Psychic attempt to use Tinted Lens on are, essentially, bulky Steel-types, namely Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Corviknight. Being able to actually break these mons with STABs is extremely difficult even with TL. And if we did make a mon that could break even 2 of these mons, that mon would be downright busted. It would have very few if any reliable switch-ins. Why is Fire/Psychic better? For one, it gives us access to a whole host more of consistent checks, namely defensive Fairy-types, which are quite common. It trades having a better matchup into Steel-types for allowing Fairy-types to potentially check us, notably Tapu Fini. This in and of itself not only accomplishes Steel/Psychic's job better, but also ends up with a more balanced typing that does not require extensive checking later on in the process. Steel/Psychic should stay off the slate.
 
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I've sorted all the typings slated into four groups based on how I feel about them and whether I think they should be slated or swapped for something else:

I like these typings and I support them being slated

Steel/Electric: This typing is really cool, not too much to say about it honestly. It has alot of offensive and defensive value, benefits significantly from Tinted Lens, yet doesn't fell too strong. My only concern is that the very limited physical movepool for Electric could be restricitive, particularly over two forms.​
Grass/Poison has really grown on me. Initially I thought its immunties and 4x resists would be too difficult, even with Tinted Lens. With more consideration however, I actually like that it has hard counters as they give 30i a good reason to use its utility rather than always breaking. I've also softened my opinion on coverage moves. 2 STABS+1 coverage+1 utility is a perfectly standard and acceptable build for a utility breaker, and the STAB+orb boost means it will only use it's coverage situationally anyway. So if it wants to run a STAB move to reduce its pool of counters that's fine.​

I don't like this typing but I support it being slated

Ice/Fighting: I think it's a good one to have on the slate as it significantly benefits from Tinted Lens, and it represents the most offensive direction that we could take 30i. Personally I think its offensive nature could overshadow the utility aspect of the role and limit 30b, but I can defintiely see why other people would like this option.​

These typings have their merits but I prefer other alternatives

Steel/Fairy: I have some doubts about this typing, but for different reasons than some of the other posters. Obviously it's a very strong typing paired with a very strong ability, but balancing that with a more modest BST and movepool could yield quite an interesting pokemon (a better Klefki that lacks prankster but can wallbreak sounds really cool). However, I don't really see the benefits of this typing compared to Steel+Psychic/Fighting, which benefit more from Tinted Lens and have more varied STAB moves available.​
Fire/Psychic: It's an interesting typing as it's very offensive and powerful at wallbreaking, has some major defensive issues, but also a lot more resistances than you'd expect. It also benefits quite a lot from tinted lens. That said, Steel/Psychic and Fighting/Psychic interest me more as Psychic types.​
Fire/Fighting: Similar to Fire/Psychic, this is a strong offensive typing that significantly benefits from Tinted Lens while also having some interesting defensive traits. I personally prefer Steel/Fighting and Fighting/Psychic as Fighting types, but this is still a solid option. Being Knock Off resistant and Stealth Rock neutral in particular are nice traits.​
Basically I really like all three combinations of Steel/Psychic/Fighting, and I think at least one of those three could be swapped in here, despite the three slated typings all being pretty solid too.​

These typings are cool but I don't think they really fit Tinted Lens

Dark/Flying: Kinda mixed feeling about this one. It's a cool typing in general, but it's got so few resists to begin with that it feels like it would play very similarly with or without Tinted Lens.​
Water/Fairy: I don't have a strong opinion about this typing. It's obviously a good typing both offensively and defensively, but I don't see it really benefiting that much from Tinted Lens compared to most of the other slated typings.​
 
You have to keep in mind that we are making two mons here. If we choose Steel/Bug, both forms are directly competing with Scizor for a teamslot. This is different than other typings, for instance Electric/Steel competing with Magnezone, because Magnezone has one role that it fulfills. Scizor can run about 3-4 different sets, all of which are viable. It is a phys def pivot, a spdef pivot, a swords dance sweeper, a Defogger, and a trapper. Directly competing with Scizor is an absolute death sentence for at least one if not both of CAP 30's forms.
Scizor only gained popularity in OU because its typing is defensively excellent + fully unique with recovery, and was a rare check to Kyurem- after it had that incredibly strong foothold (as well as defensively checking many other great annoying mons like Lele, Rilla) it was able to branch out into multiple sets because its offering that key niche. There is definitely room to outclass Scizor at its main set and its fringe sets- I dont think it truly excels at any of its offensive sets like other offensive mons (but they are something to do while providing that important defensive quality to the team), and Scizor is basically entirely mediocre stat-wise/has very specific offensive qualities which all operate through the limited power of Technician. It is slightly stretched already with its stats not fully matching its typing, for instance getting 2hkod with a non-spdef spread by specs Tapu Lele, while also feeling the need to invest in physical defense to check other important mons.

You can easily compete with Scizor by improving on its flaws in stats and/or damage output or you can take a Genesect route and do something completely different without competing, which I think is what Tinted Lens is already doing. There's countless ways to reshape a good defensive typing into a completely different product, I'm thinking of the 4 Steel/Flyings we've had in CAP over the last 2 gens and they've all seen usage in different ways, many existing in the highest tier at the same time. Its not the same as adding 3 Ice/Dark types to the tier.
 
Not much time her but I want to throw my support behind poison Flying.
It’s a great defensive Typing That has an awesome potential against fairies, Grass, Fighting and Ground Types and with Tinted Lens as Ability becomes a fairly great offensive typing too.
Being able to chunk All Existing Fairies is great and Poison STAB has some really powerful utility.
At the same time Flying is probably one of the strongest TL mono types opening up the potential of even more utility moves on 30i.

Lando, Clef and Bao Beware here comes your new worst enemy.

I also like the idea of swapping steel fairy for steel psychic. They are fairly similar in terms of defensive merit, but steel psychic has the upside of hitting Toxapex SE which imo is already enough to make it more suited to wallbreaking.
Otherwise they hit basically the same defensive targets.

In general the slate is fine and I can see the arguments for most types on here, but if I had to say keep or drop, the types of definitely want to see slated are fire/fighting and Dark/Flying, whereas im not too keen on Water/Fairy Steel/Fairy and Grass/Poison.
 
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Re: Ice/Fighting, I think the versatility of this type combination is being seriously underrated. Many seem to assume the only possible route for it is pure balls-to-the-wall glass-cannon offense. This is false.

While it’s true that most versions of a valid Ice/Fighter would likey be offensive, “offensive” is an extraordinarily broad label that encompasses like 70% of all pokemon. Saying that having both forms be “offensive” is overly restrictive is like saying :zeraora:, :kyurem:, :staraptor:, :medicham-mega:, :alakazam-mega:, and :greninja: are all functionally the same pokemon (yes, I did choose all defensively-poor examples on purpose).

That suggestion also seriously undersells the impact stats and moves can have on defining a mon’s role. If you wanted to be lazy, you could easily give it base 200 HP / 200 Def to create one of the best physical walls in the tier, typing be damned. Even though it’s currently Untiered, OMs have demonstrated time and again that :avalugg: only needs a relatively trivial amount of help in order to become a legitimate defensive piece. And up in Ubers, :calyrex-ice: currently sits at B+ in viability, despite attempting a slow, bulky build with a defensive type even worse than Ice/Fight.

I am certain that, if we put our heads together, we could bend Ice/Fighting to fill literally any role we wanted it to. It would just take marginally more effort than it would with some of the more generically well-rounded typings.

Thus, I consider there to be no chance whatsoever that 30b would find itself struggling to distinguish itself from 30i.

Also, just having Fighting STAB and a rocks neutrality is more than enough to differentiate 30 from :kyurem: and :weavile:. I find it kind of stange that anyone would suggest otherwise.

————

For what it’s worth, I love the slate as it currently is, and I don’t think a single thing on it needs to change. The quality of discussion in this stage has been incredible, and I think the current slate perfectly captures the range of ideas that have been thrown around, without having any of the individual entries overlap with each other.
 
I'll give some thoughts on pre-slate, though it's mostly agreeing with what's been posted

Both Water/Fairy and Steel/Fairy are much too strong and already well developed in the OU meta to be slated imo. Tapu Fini and Magearna already show their crazy offensive and defensive potential, and Fairy doesn't benefit much from Tinted Lens.

I'll also throw support for Water/Grass and Poison/Flying. Both offer defensive utility and benefit greatly from Tinted Lens, without being over or underpowered.
 
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Re: Ice/Fighting, I think the versatility of this type combination is being seriously underrated. Many seem to assume the only possible route for it is pure balls-to-the-wall glass-cannon offense. This is false.

While it’s true that most versions of a valid Ice/Fighter would likey be offensive, “offensive” is an extraordinarily broad label that encompasses like 70% of all pokemon. Saying that having both forms be “offensive” is overly restrictive is like saying :zeraora:, :kyurem:, :staraptor:, :medicham-mega:, :alakazam-mega:, and :greninja: are all functionally the same pokemon (yes, I did choose all defensively-poor examples on purpose).

That suggestion also seriously undersells the impact stats and moves can have on defining a mon’s role. If you wanted to be lazy, you could easily give it base 200 HP / 200 Def to create one of the best physical walls in the tier, typing be damned. Even though it’s currently Untiered, OMs have demonstrated time and again that :avalugg: only needs a relatively trivial amount of help in order to become a legitimate defensive piece. And up in Ubers, :calyrex-ice: currently sits at B+ in viability, despite attempting a slow, bulky build with a defensive type even worse than Ice/Fight.

I am certain that, if we put our heads together, we could bend Ice/Fighting to fill literally any role we wanted it to. It would just take marginally more effort than it would with some of the more generically well-rounded typings.

Thus, I consider there to be no chance whatsoever that 30b would find itself struggling to distinguish itself from 30i.

Also, just having Fighting STAB and a rocks neutrality is more than enough to differentiate 30 from :kyurem: and :weavile:. I find it kind of stange that anyone would suggest otherwise.
I’m sorry, but saying Ice/Fighting can work because Calyrex-I is B+ in Ubers feels like a rather flimsy and disingenuous argument. It has 100/150/130 bulk, which is frankly more than a CAP will probably ever have. Also, while it is true that there are many different kinds of offensive Pokémon, I feel that Ice/Fighting as a type combination simply does not have enough utility attacks in its STABs to fill multiple offensive roles, especially regarding Ice. Also, while a Stealth Rock neutrality is obviously nice, I feel you’re slightly overestimating the extent to which that would let us take team slots away from the other offensive Ice-type Pokémon. Syclant is immune to Stealth Rock altogether, and yet Weavile is largely seen as the superior offensive Ice-type in the metagame despite that. I just really think Ice/Fighting would be an extremely risky type combination that could jeopardize the success of the project, and so I feel it should be removed from the slate.

While I’m here, I’m going to throw my support towards Grass/Steel as a type combination. Both types greatly benefit from Tinted Lens, and Grass’s variety of utility attacks has been discussed in detail. This is admittedly a more powerful alternative to Grass/Poison, but I feel both options could coexist on the slate. Ferrothorn and Kartana, as mentioned by kj, are rather limited Pokémon in terms of versatility and are both physical attackers. I feel that there should be enough design space for the two forms of CAP30, especially considering that we will be able to determine our role for 30b after we determine our typing, and therefore we can easily work to avoid having 30b compete with Ferrothorn or Kartana as well as 30i. Replace Steel/Fairy with Grass/Steel. I personally don’t feel Grass/Flying should be slated, based on what I mentioned last night, so we shouldn’t have an overabundance of Grass-types on the slate if it stays off.

I realize this sounds somewhat hypocritical based on the previous paragraph, but I am a bit skeptical of Bug/Steel. While we can use Bug’s various utility attacks to stand out, I frankly am still a bit anxious about adding two of this type combo to the metagame when Scizor can easily fulfill multiple roles right now. Just like Tapu Fini, Scizor is a versatile Pokémon who, unlike Ferrokart, would be somewhat easy to be forced to compete with. I think it could be fine, considering Scizor doesn’t use any of Bug’s utility attacks to my knowledge, but I feel rather skittish about this one.
 
Super late to the party here, but I’m fully in support of removing Steel/Fairy, Water/Fairy, and Fire/Psychic from the slate and replacing them with Fire/Fairy (arguably my favorite typing on the whole list), Water/Grass, and maybe Water/Steel.

As has been said many times in the thread, Steel/Fairy is incredibly dangerous ground to tread on due its insane defensive prowess and offensive capabilities, which are only bolstered by Tinted Lens. The typing doesn’t have the best track record as far as truly balanced mons go, and I fear that even the slightest misstep would tip us in the wrong direction there. As for Water/Fairy, I think we would really be competing far too heavily with Tapu Fini for our role (at least for 30i). Fini already oscillates between utility, offensive, and defensive roles, often with all (or two) roles condensed into one. Fini is a fully-realized mon in CAP, and I personally don’t have any interest in a process that competes with it for viability. Finally, Fire/Psychic doesn’t interest me much primarily due to the combination of a dark weakness and rocks weakness; being weak to both Knock-Off and rocks is not a good combination to have, especially on a utility wallbreaker. However, I do think we can get away with just one of these two weaknesses...

I really, really like Fire/Fairy for this reason. We resist Knock and are still weak to rocks, which can help balance our offensively potent typing. Like people have said, Fire really takes advantage of TL by way of being an inherently offensive typing that appreciates the ability to either muscle past its resists or force heavy chip on them. Fire and Fairy both work well together to offset the dominant Steels in the tier while also working well against bulky waters with TL. Also incredibly worth noting is the matchup with Dragapult and Weavile, two of the most dominant offensive breakers in the tier. Fire/Fairy kinda eats these two for breakfast, especially Weav. Switch in on the resisted Knock and force it out, dealing heavy damage to whatever comes in, or simply KO it in return. We’ll likely take a chunk from Pult’s Shadow Ball, but like Weav, we can heavily threaten it, forcing it out or either KOing it. I think Fire/Fairy has the strongest potential of all of the Fire and Fairy type combos for the slate, and arguably amongst all the types we’ve discussed at all. Sidenote, there’s also some great offensive utility STAB moves we could draw on here: Mystical Fire, Fire Lash, Draining Kiss, etc.

I also think that Water/Grass definitely deserves to be slated. It’s a strong defensive typing with a ridiculously potent STAB combo that can threaten a lot of the tier, especially Lando and Tran. I think there’s also an incredible amount of design space here too, but that’s less of a concern for the slate. As with Fire/Fairy, we have a large swath of offensive utility moves to use for both types (Scald, Flip Turn, Apple Acid, Trop Kick, etc.), which certainly helps.

Finally, I’ll touch on Water/Steel briefly: simply put, it’s an incredibly strong defensive typing that has strong offensive potential with TL. It’s not my absolute favorite typing but I do really like it and I think it deserves to be slated, replacing Steel/Fairy.

(sorry if there’s any weird formatting, I’m on mobile!)
 
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In a post-gastrointestinal agony state I decided to compile and comment on every unique typing discussed so far, including those on the slate. There's been so much new discussion I feel like my original post comes from the Stone Age in terms of relevancy.

Pre-Slate Typings:

Ice/Fighting


I still worry over this due to poor defensive value and generally being outclassed by Fire/Fighting, even if the later has some of its own issues like weaknesses to Ground and Water. As much fun as it would be to explore Ice/Fighting I doubt there's much viable design space for this as a result of being so fragile.

Fire/Fighting

Pretty much the same opinion I had before. It's got a good amount of defensive utility while being quite good offensively. It does falter a bit in not targeting a lot of common defensive mons (i.e. Waters) but being able to hit all Steels in the metagame for SE damage will almost certainly provide a valuable niche.

Fire/Psychic

This has garnered way more support than I imagined, and I still struggle to accept it as a good choice. This mainly comes down to being Rocks weak and Dark weak. Typings that take 25% from Stealth Rocks are perfectly fine for the slate, while being Knock Off weak, though a bit suboptimal, is okay if we make up for it with a strong offensive typing. A type that is weak to both, however, puts serious strain on 30i to stay healthy and makes it extremely dependent on pivot and hazard control to come in. We do live in the days of Teleport and Defog, but a breaker that requires such support will be much harder to fit onto a team compared to one that has an easier time coming in, and likewise have more of a place within the team's greater synergy.

That said this remains exceptionally popular despite its flaws and that alone makes me insecure over whether I'm looking at this the right way or if I'm just a complete moron.

Steel/Electric

Another typing which I haven't really changed opinions on. I think there's more interesting typings than this suggested but nothing about Steel/Electric is too unappetizing to me.

Steel/Fairy

Unsurprisingly this has not weathered the storm well. The past couple generations being ravaged by the likes of Mega Mawile and Magearna has definitely scarred the playerbase and I'm no exception. While I think it'd be neat to explore a more balanced approach to this typing (i.e. not giving it Huge Power or a billion sets like the last two), I think it's safer to go with the consensus on this one and cut it from the slate.

Water/Fairy

This is another unpopular slating and although I have less grievances towards it compared to Steel/Fairy, the obvious issue of having to compete with Fini with not just one but two forms puts a severe damper on its appeal. I'm not too attached to this overall so if the community wants it gone, it can go.

Grass/Poison

Good. Replaceable but definitely can stay.

Dark/Flying

This is one of the two Dark typings discussed since the slate going up and it's held on quite well. A handful of other Flying combos have been suggested thus far, however, and of them Dark/Flying hasn't kept my interest as much. It definitely has merit and I don't explicitly want it removed, but I wouldn't exactly miss it either.

Suggested Additions:

Poison/Flying


It's pretty cool. Tinted Lens is a great asset for this combo, and both have different roles offensively: Poison helps deal with all relevant Fairies plus having a lot of application in spreading status, while Flying is an all-around good offensive type. I think this struggles too much in hitting the relevant walls of the metagame SE, but it does allow us to explore a potentially different approach to wallbreaking, one that relies on having basically no resistances and passive damage from the Poison status to break through cores.

The other upside is that Poison/Flying is a good typing all around. Our sole example thus far is Crobat, a Pokemon which straddles the line between fast offensive threat and defensive nuisance thanks to its Speed and array of good attacking and support moves in conjunction with its typing. You could also look to Golbat in lower tiers and NFE for an idea of how excellent this typing can be in the right circumstances. What this means for us is that 30b would have plenty of room to explore its typing and role in a way different from 30i.

Fire/Normal

Normal is extremely controversial as it usually is and unfortunately I don't have much of an opinion on this typing to help bring us closer to a decision. Normal has a lot of cool attacks which would be fun to use in the face of Steels, especially given how they'd be roasted by our Fire typing. I can't help but feel this is a bit anti-synergistic, as in, what's the point of running a Tinted Lens Normal type if so few Steel types actually want to switch in on us? The only thing I see as valuable here is maybe being more effective versus faster Steels and Heatran, and the immunity to everyone's favorite offensive type, Ghost. Otherwise the Normal typing comes off as forced and more of a detriment overall.

Grass/Flying

Considering the only good Grass/Flying type we've had in recent years is Shaymin-Sky, and the only reason it was good is because of funny flinches and halving your Special Defense like no tomorrow, I would say we have a lot of room to explore the uses of this typing. It's got a wide array of hurdles to overcome, such as damage from Rocks, having a slew of weaknesses, and immediately dissipating if it so much as opens the fridge for a soda, so we would have to weigh these considerations carefully. I don't really like this one as a Pokemon meant to deal with Water-types that also dies to the Ice coverage they all get sounds like a bad idea. There's better Flying and Grass submissions out there and while this condenses both, I don't think it's a terribly good option.

Bug/Steel

Good option. We would have to compete with Scizor but chances are we just outclass it anyhow if we make 30i a good Pokemon, so really the problem with this typing comes down to how much you like Scizor.

Poison/Fairy

Cool typing which combines unique defensive application with the offensive might of Fairy and damage-over-time of Poison. This would have to compete with other Poisons for a slot on the slate depending on other options, and I am a bit more favorable to Poison/Flying than this one, but this still isn't a bad choice and would give a good foundation for 30b to work off of.

Fighting/Steel

I really like this one, it's got great defensive use for the metagame right now while still packing a good offensive STAB combo. Maybe not ideal for the current landscape but one which I think has good longevity and once again leaves a lot of room for the other form to work with. Also means we get to make a better version of Zamazenta-Crowned

Electric/Fighting

This is a direct upgrade over Fire/Psychic for me, even though the typings are vastly different. Fighting and Electric deal with a good chunk of what the former does, and it doesn't accomplish this by being weak to hazards or Knock Off! There are a handful of Electric-types in the tier that are quite good, but none that I'd consider a "wallbreaker." Might be a bit troublesome for 30b to find a place, but I don't think it's an impossible task and the benefits this brings for 30i are well worth the challenge. You also have the fact that both typings face immunities: this does make wallbreaking a bit more troublesome, but I think is a fair trade-off all things considered. We should probably have some Pokemon that can switch in.

Dark/Poison

We did literally just do this last time but if you're worried about competition with Chromera you have to understand that Chromera currently faces competition with the entire metagame, so really this would just further accentuate the calls some have made to give the past project a rework. Good defensive typing that has STAB on everyone's favorite move. Dark also has a lot of other cool physical moves we could explore outside of Knock Off, and works quite well with Poison to cover the inherent Fairy issue.

My biggest complaint is that we'd be adding three Pokemon of the exact same typing to the metagame in a row, and while the one doesn't exactly fit the bill due to Color Change, it bothers me all the same.

Normal/Fairy

Realistically the only Normal typing I would actually support. First of all it's a huge middle finger to Dragapult, which is admittedly my favorite aspect of this typing. In terms of a Tinted Lens wallbreaker, I already mentioned how Normal has a lot of strong moves at its disposal, and Fairy is not a bad typing to pair it with as the two of the common Ghosts in the tier do not want to take a Fairy-type attack. Trading a Fighting resist for a Ghost immunity is a fair deal defensively and the Normal coverage can help versus Steels, since Fairy lacks a lot of the same high-BP options Normal conveniently has.

Water/Grass

I like this one, it's another surprisingly unexplored typing in the same vein as Poison/Flying. Both have extensive attacking movepools with tons of utility and strong secondary effects attached to them, as well as nuke buttons if you'd want to go that route. Defensively you're a tad awkward since Grass adds a lot of weaknesses, but a Water not weak to Electric or Grass is cool, especially one that actually resists Ground.

Fighting/Psychic

Wholly uninterested in this. Not to say it's bad, I just really don't care. At the very least it lets us use the Psychic typing without being weak to Knock Off, and I also like this more than Fire/Psychic but not nearly as much as Electric/Fighting, which I already want as its replacement. I don't see this being a good fit for the slate.

Fire/Fairy

Maybe my favorite unused typing in the game. The resists on this thing are insane and you are granted immunities to Dragon and burn as well. Great offensively and defensively with so much potential to be uncovered as we move into 30b. The only issue I have is that it's another Fire type which could be annoying to add alongside other options, and it would end up being pretty scary offensively since Heatran is the only thing which wants to switch into this from the outset.

Fighting/Poison

I'm not as enthralled by this as the other Poison or Fighting submissions. It's not the worst typing here, Fighting is really good with Tinted Lens and Poison I've covered multiple times already, and it's not awful defensively either. Maybe I'm a bit burnt out from the other ones.

Steel/Psychic

Easily my favorite Psychic sub. Still, it has issues, such as not being too threatening versus a lot of walls, but it does retain defensive value and Tinted Lens on a Psychic type can be pretty annoying to switch into if you're Dark type isn't keen on switching in. Not anywhere close to my favorite subs but I wouldn't be upset if this got slated.

Grass/Steel

There's probably space in the metagame for this. Ferrothorn is a mixed wall that relies a bit more on its physical coverage than STABs, while Kartana is barely identified by it's typing since it's main use is having stupidly high Attack and a respectable Speed tier. We can definitely look into Grass/Steel a lot without getting in the way too much, though for a utility wallbreaker we might be getting a bit too close to Ferro's turf since it regularly sets hazards, spreads status, and can run Leech Seed. Having to had two only make the situation worse.


If I may, these are the changes I want the most for the slate:

Ice/Fighting replaced with Electric/Fighting

Fire/Psychic replaced with Fire/Fairy

Steel/Fairy replaced with different Steel except Steel/Fighting
(This is so there's not three Fighting-types on the slate. If I wasn't as big on Fire/Fighting and Electric/Fighting I'd love to have it, but those two are just better IMO. If only one of those two are on the slate however Steel/Fighting would be next in line)

Water/Fairy replaced with Normal/Fairy

Fire/Fighting, Steel/Electric, Grass/Poison, Dark/Flying
are all fine, but I wouldn't mind Poison/Flying replacing Grass/Poison or Dark/Flying.

Final lineup would look something like:

Steel/(Bug)(Grass)(Psychic)
Steel/Electric
Electric/Fighting
Fire/Fighting
Fire/Fairy
Normal/Fairy
2 of (Poison/Flying)(Dark/Flying)(Grass/Poison)
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
is a Contributor Alumnus
I think there are still a lot of people overly fearful of being weak to SR and Knock.

SR weak Pokemon have always been relevant in OU/CAP. Since the moves inception. It's not a crippling downside IF you balance it out with reasonable strengths or you build around utilizing effect hazard control. This is true for Pokemon like Volcarona, Tornadus-T, Gyarados, Dragonite, etc etc etc from older generations. And true for shit like Band Weavile, Specs Kyurem, and Blacephalon this generation. It's also a really strong balancing point for us; maybe having our unresisted wallbreaker need a little hazard support could be a good thing??

As for Knock, the move is effectively a 65 BP vs CAP30i that all of two or three Pokemon use effectively as offensive STAB atm? When was the last time that STAB HP FIRE from Heatran had you quaking in your boots? That is the kind of BP we are looking at here. As for 30b, idk both forms don't need to be Knock absorbers.
 
20210905_152139.jpg

spoo I have made a post :D

OK I'll add some actual substance real quick.

Poison/Flying: Really interesting and unique offensive typing that can get entry on a fair few defensive staples like Clef, Argh, even Lando and can threaten them out with strong stabs. The unreliability of some of the stronger stab options is a potential issue (hurricane if special and gunk shot if physical), but each can be paired with a more spammable stab, (sludge bomb and brave bird respectively). A useful and relatively unique defensive profile also gives us good options for 30b.

Steel/Fairy: Please no. Steel Fairy with tinted lens is absolutely nutty, we're inevitably gonna have to hamstring this is in movepool or stats, both of which are gonna make it harder to make a solid end product with 30b.

Literally any normal type: :pikuh:

Might edit some more in later
 
Just gonna post my thoughts real quick:
Not much to say here that hasn't been said already. Both types are fantastic offensively with Tinted Lens and it offers a lot defensively too, notably checking Landorus-T, Dragapult, and being a solid Knock absorber.
Gonna lump these two together since my argument for both is basically the same. Both of these typings are fine. They're already stellar offensively, with Tinted Lens allowing them to make progress against would-be answers, most notably Toxapex. While poor defensively, it's not too difficult to pivot in frail mons currently and both these typings have the interesting trait of being able to come in on Weavile. These typings are far more offensively inclined than the others on the slate, but I don't find that to be a problem and belive it brings a healthy amount of diversity to the slate.
This typing's a weird one where Electric on its own is pretty bad for Tinted Lens, but when paired with Steel, offers a unique defensive typing with enough kick to threaten common defensive staples. Specifically, the typing checks threats like Tapu Koko and Arctozolt, has a spammable Steel STAB, and threatens the likes of the Steelbirds and bulky waters. Great typing kind of a banger
Basically beating a dead horse over here, but this typing is already absurdly strong defensivley and doesn't need much support from Tinted Lens either. Not a fan.
Similar to Steel Fairy, this typing is already insanely good and there are very few Pokemon that switch into this type combo even without Tinted Lens. And unlike the Fightings on this slate, Water Fairy does not threaten nearly as many defensive Pokemon and suffers from competition with Tapu Fini.
I quite dislike this one actually. Admittedly it's great defensively, but at the same time the meta isn't short on semi-defensive Grass types nor defensive Poison types. Jumbao is fantastic currently, and Tapu Bulu and Ferrothorn are both very solid as well; Jumbao also answers Zeraora, Landorus, and Garchomp better than Grass Poison ever will. On the Poison side, Toxapex and Glowking are in no shortage of usage, and as such carving out a defensive niche with this typing will likely prove difficult. Furthermore, this typing is still extremely mediocre offensively even with Tinted Lens; near every team will have at least one of Corviknight, Skarmory, Heatran, or Scizor. It doesn't help that this typing's defensive competition is already pretty strong offensively as well. Jumbao, Tapu Bulu, and Glowking are all pretty tough to switch into, and because of that I don't think this typing has much going for it.
This one's interesting. Victini has demonstrated this typing's defensive capabilities, notably checking Tapu Lele, Volcarona, and Jumbao. On top of that, it's fantastic offensively, able to threaten supereffective hits on Corviknight, Skarmory, and Toxapex. My only concern is that it doesn't benefit all that much from Tinted Lens, since the only relevant resists are like Heatran, Slowking, and Hydreigon. And even then Heatran is known to run Flame Body and Slowking and Hydreigon aren't great right now. Could go either way on this one.
Really like this typing. Flying is a phenomenal option here thanks to its exceptional defensive utility and the fact that it's virtually unresistes after Tinted Lens. Grass adds to this by allowing us to answer Urshifu-R as well as threaten Waters and Grounds like Tapu Fini and Colossoil.
This one is real neat. It's fantastic defensively, and Steel works excellently with Tinted Lens. Admittedly the type combo isn't rare in the current meta, with Ferrothorn and Kartana both being solid at the moment, but I don't think it's too much of a problem. Ferrothorn's utility movepool will likely always distinguish it, and Kartana hardly counts as an offensive Grass Steel since most of the time it doesn't run Steel STAB.
Don't like this one all that much. Defensively the combo is extremely awkward, being a Grass that doesn't resist Electric and a Water that doesn't resist Fire. Offensively, the typing simultaneously benefits little from Tinted Lens while still being pretty lackluster without. Water is most commonly resisted by other Water types, which Grass already covers. Although being able to hit Grasses and Dragons neutrally is nice, we don't actually threaten all that much supereffectively to wallbreak all that well.
As I've said before, Flying is an amazing type here and Poison has its unique set of benefits to add on, notably a Toxic immunity that solidifies our matchup into Landorus-T and Colossoil, and the ability to force out Clefable.
Bug Steel has a pretty big problem design-wise, that problem being Scizor. Normally I wouldn't consider overlapping typings like this to be an issue, but the thing is Scizor's claim to fame is its typing and utility. Scizor is an excellent defensive mon even with mediocre defensive stats, so any mon that shares its typing will indubitably encroach on that niche. Furthermore, Scizor's range of utility in strong priority and Defog, as well as its capability to be run offensively or defensively makes it once more difficult to make a mon that doesn't encroach upon what Scizor does.
This type combo complements itself quite well. Fighting is able to punch through the Steels that render Tinted Lens Poison useless, and Poison backs up Fighting with its unique resists to Fighting and Fairy and Toxic immunity. Tinted Lens allows this mon to progress against Defensive checks like Toxapex and Glowking, making for a very potent combo overall.
That being said, my ideal slate would probably be as follows:
Dark Flying
Electric Steel
Grass Flying
Grass Steel
Fire Psychic
Ice Fighting
Poison Flying
Poison Steel
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
This has bugged me for a while actually, but to add onto Fairy dogpiling I legit cant understand Fire/Fairy being a balanced option and I think wanting to replace Fire/Psychic is very concerning.

I don't think it's as abhorrent as Steel/Fairy because it's not god-tier defensively, but I still fail to see how this mon doesnt descend into just clicking our Tinted Lens and Pixie Plate boosted Moonblast/Play Rough. It's actually more irritating since Fire STAB let's it rip through Corv and other Steel-types even faster than other Fairy combos. It dies to Heatran like almost every other Fairy, but I really fail to see what else stops it aside from Toxapex.

Also I legit dont get why being Knock Off weak is such a deal breaker from slate for Fire/Psychic. We aren't taking normal Knock Off damage here since we have Griseous Orb, and considering we are likely going to have at least decent bulk I dont see us getting 2HKO'd by a 65 base power move here. If this is some hidden agenda for being a Knock absorber, I dont see why Fire/Psychic should be excluded for doing something else.
 
Time for slate opinions

Dark/Flying: Gonna put my biased hat on here and say I'm disappointed that Dark/Fairy did not get any discussion, given it offers a lot of what Dark/Flying offers, but without the weakness to rocks. You trade a Dragon immunity for a Ground immunity, which is definitely an upgrade, but you also trade weaknesses to Poison/Steel for Electric/Ice/Rock, which are more common attacking types. The Grass resist thanks to Flying is nice though. All that said, I support this typing precisely because it does basically what Dark/Fairy does. I am still not convinced a Rock weakness is explicitly a good thing, and am in the "why not avoid it if you can?" camp.

Ice/Fighting: I don't like this one. I still believe defensive utility is the priority, given TL elevates shitty attacking types. Ice/Fighting provides next to no defensive utility. Pure Fighting with strong Ice coverage may even be better. I do think it is unique and don't mind it being slated though, I just wouldn't vote for it.

Fire/Fighting: This one is fine. Don't mind it being slated. I can the benefits, and it received a lot of support.

Fire/Psychic: I've been no Knock and Rock weakness advocate from the start, but I don't mind knock and rock weak typings being slated. But this one feels like it's just here to hit Pex SE, because Fire/Fighting is just better. I would not miss it if removed from the slate.

Steel/Electric: One of the more unique typings being slated, received a lot of support, AND I personally like it (gasp). Well deserved spot on the slate.

Steel/Fairy: I mean.. We KNOW this one is a phenomenal defensive typing, and that's kind of the problem. Offensively, it's similar to Steel/Electric without hitting many walls SE, and defensively it's stupid. Would not miss it if it was removed.

Water/Fairy: Introducing 2 new water types into meta that already has a bunch of water types in every role, especially in direct competition with Fini, just does not sit well with me. Nice typing, but doesn't do anything interesting with TL that some other types on this slate do anyway. Would not miss.

Grass/Poison: This one just snuck in at the end with basically no discussion or support after it was submitted. The first few pages of this thread are filled with people saying how they think Grass/Poison wasn't a great typing because of the absurd number of 4x resists to Grass and immunities to Poison. Don't know how it got on the slate and I think it should be removed.

-------
Typings I think could be slated instead:

Dark/Fairy:
hehe

I think at the very least, a steel, a grass, a fairy, a dark, a fighting and a flying typing ought to be on the slate.

Electric/Fighting: Overlaps a little bit with Fire/Fighting, but this one hits a whole bunch of walls SE and isn't already an absurd attacking combo like Ice/Fighting.

Grass/Fighting: Lots of defensive utility, got some early support, and fits the concept. Access to utility as well. I think this should be ahead of Grass/Poison at least.

Poison/Flying: Poison provides mostly defensive utility here given Flying can hold its own as a STAB with TL. Overlaps a bit with Dark/Flying though, but you trade consistent Dark STAB for more resistances.

Poison/Dark: Kinda similar to Poison/Flying in that Dark STAB can hold its own alongside Poison. Having only a singular weakness to Ground is nice.

Fighting/Steel: A ton of defensively utility without being completely absurd. Basically just combines two of the types that have to most synergy with TL.

----
EDIT:
65 BP Knock is not weak.

252 Atk Weavile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 204-240 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 128-152 (29 - 34.4%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO

0- Atk Tornadus-Therian Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 86-102 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO

Fire/Psychic is at ~50% after Rocks and negative nature Torn's Knock. This is with 150/100 defenses (uninvested). I think it's going to have trouble doing its job or be a momentum sink due to the moves spent recovering/defogging.

I don't think the desire to be a Knock absorber is a hidden agenda given we are currently making the only un-Knockable mon in the entire meta.
 
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Goes without saying since I was the submitter, but I agree with the consensus that Poison/Flying deserves a slot. It's such a cool and unique typing that I think will be much more well-rounded than some of these other options. It leans into its defensive strengths to switch into a huge swath of the tier, it has utility baked in, etc. It would also be quite easy to adapt the typing to a non-wallbreaking role for 30b.

I like Grass/Flying quite a lot, so if there's room for it in addition to Poison/Flying, I'd support it being up there. It's not quite as cohesive as a defensive typing, and it doesn't consistently check the same number of threats, but it's a fun and balanced typing with some decent strengths.

Steel/Fairy is straight-up too good. Take one of the best defensive typings in the game and remove its only weakness in not being able to hit steels and pex? No thanks.

I support Psychic/Steel on the slate over Steel/Fairy. It's still a very solid defensive typing, but now it has a better balance of weaknesses and strengths. It's also a more applicable typing for the role of wallbreaking.

Ice/Fighting is the opposite of well-rounded. I guess it's cool as a representative of a "glass cannon" build on the slate, hitting apparently a supermajority of the tier super effectively but having little defensive use. I honestly think that's not a great route to take us in. Don't think it deserves the slot.

I'm extremely wary of dark-types here for reasons I've discussed in the Discord, and while Dark/Flying is cool, I think other typings work better for what we're trying to achieve here.

I personally agree with the lack of design space for Water/Fairy and Steel/Bug.
 

snake_rattler

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
I think my favorite typing combos on the slate right now are Fire / Fighting, Grass / Poison, and Dark / Flying. I think they all interact quite nicely with Tinted Lens while also leaving options very wide open for CAP30b. Even within the metagame, these typings are pretty underrepresented - Blaziken, Amoonguss, Mandibuzz, and Galarian Moltres have their small niches, which shows us that these typings can be effective and that we can expand upon them for CAP30 also. Out of all the Fighting-type combinations I've seen in the thread, Fire / Fighting has easily been my favorite. Grass / Poison is deceptively good, and I'd love to explore it some more. Finally, Dark / Flying would be interesting because we have an example of a more defensive Pokemon, Mandibuzz, and an example of a more offensive one, Galarian Moltres, to compare against.
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
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Moderator
Being Knock Weak, Knock Neutral, and Knock Resistant are all individual strengths from a design perspective. Being Knock Off weak gives us the ability filter for free against one of the most common moves that will hit us. That's legitimately insane. Suddenly a 75/77 bulk mon can tank a 252 Attack Knock Off from Weavile. That lets us really increase in-battle complexity cause we could very easily change our matchup vs some of our offensive answer. This would be the absolute definition of a pressure matchup. Similarly being Knock Off neutral effectively makes us take resisted damage, letting us answer Weavile about as well as Zard-X did (aka well). Knock Resist is sorta mediocre honestly, as like it takes a major strength and doubles down on it in a way that sorta unnecessary unless we got like 60/60 bulk.

I think I should also defend any Stealth Rock weak typings, for similar reasons. They're a very important balancibng point given that Tinted Lens is sorta absurdly strong, and that if we have any kind of strong offensive typing (Flying, Fire) we are going to need to either kneecap our offensive stats, or make the mon very hard to bring in (SR). Having this kind of defined weakness (and therefore very interesting building, I personally love building double removal Talon teams in ORAS) is something that could allow us to really carefully balance our base forme rather than being forced to give it a "TL equivalent strength ability".

---

I'd like to post again to shill Fire / Psychic, which is amazing at using the orb to reduce Knock Off damage (potentially letting you tank Weav Knock), has SE hits vs like so many walls to guarantee TL use (aka using TL is threatening someone out and then hitting the resistant wall neutral, not just having a perfect stab combo), including Corviknight, Equilibra, Toxapex, and Arghonaut, all of which are incredibly relevant currently.

Similarly I still really like Grass / Flying as it brings some absurdly unique defensive stuff to the table letting you compress a Shifu and Ground check into one slot which iirc nothing does currently. Like, Shifu is a mon that is currently sorta a train, and has very few answers, and answering that and not being ground weak (aka pex) is a super unique defensive niche, especially for a wallbreaker, all that and not FS weak.

---

I don't like the fairy types; Steel/Fairy runs a huge risk of just being too strong given that like, TL magearna saw significant usage in AAA when it was legal, and like, I don't know if we have enough balancing levers to make the item and base forme solid. Water/Fairy is competing with Tapu Fini, which is undoubtedly the most splashable mon in the entire meta, one that has legit like 5 viable sets.

I do want at least one typing capable of checking Dragapult would be useful to have on the slate as that's an instant team slot.

----

Steel / Fighting is legitimately very cool, has a few (surprisingly few) switchins, and has guaranteed access to a ton of very cool moves such as Steel Beam, potentially Meteor Mash, and the whole Fighting type roster. It does give up a lot for this offensive strength though, as its a Steel that's neutral to both Fairy and Psychic, which really hurts.
 
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252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 302-356 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

That calc is with Victini holding an unknockable Firium Z, so Knock is at 65 power. People are seriously overestimating Fire/Psychic's abilities to take weakened Knock Offs. Arguing that 30i being weak to Knock Off is a strength bEcAuSe FiLtEr is absolutely baffling.

We could work around Knock Off or Stealth Rock if it was just one of them. But not both. That Victini calc is a guaranteed OHKO if rocks are up.

While Fire/Psychic has some defensive merits, let's not pretend the ability to take K-Off's is one of them.


EDIT: (without Choice Band)
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm not impressed by this either.
 

dex

As far as I know, I'm immortal
is a Pre-Contributor
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 302-356 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

That calc is with Victini holding an unknockable Firium Z, so Knock is at 65 power. People are seriously overestimating Fire/Psychic's abilities to take weakened Knock Offs. Arguing that 30i being weak to Knock Off is a strength bEcAuSe FiLtEr is absolutely baffling.

We could work around Knock Off or Stealth Rock if it was just one of them. But not both. That Victini calc is a guaranteed OHKO if rocks are up.

While Fire/Psychic has some defensive merits, let's not pretend the ability to take K-Off's is one of them. I personally think Fire/Psychic is terrible.
Choice Band Weavile is not common in the slightest. This post does not seem familiar with the current meta where Weavile's main set has Boots. A Psychic/Fire type that lives Knock and KOes back with Fire STAB a big part of the attraction of Fire/Psychic. Please familiarize yourself with the current meta.
 
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