CAP 30 - Part 5 - Primary Ability Discussion 30b

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Estronic

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Filter
How does our typing complement Filter? When do we benefit most from the ability, and when is it least impactful?
Most if not all of CAP30b's weaknesses are popular types found on many coverage moves, particularly Ice and Electric. On paper, this seems to be very good, being able to take less damage from most coverage moves and fulfill its potential role as a defensive Pokemon more easily and effectively. The issue I can see arise in practice, however, is that such coverage moves are so common that CAP30b is going to have to keep taking them over and over again, and that damage is going to stack up easily. It's not like it'll take damage from super effective hits as if they were neutral hits; they're still going to do more damage than as if the move was a neutral hit in the first place. Sure, CAP30b may be able to stay in on an extra Ice- or Electric-type move with Filter, but it's still going to be forced out either way and will still be taking a good chunk of damage. It's not like we magically become switch-ins, either. In general, the popularity of the types CAP30b's is weak to would most likely make Filter not as useful as it seems at a first glance.
 
the most obvious benefit of having a defensive stat boosted is that it drastically changes the dynamics of matchups, and reduces the amount of losing matchups. Given how terrible Poison/Flying is, this is likely not much of an issue. However, it will completely define 30b's role and CAP30's shared (assuming we're remaining faithful to the Giratina model) movepool. Offensive strategies involving these abilities would be entirely dependent on CAP30b's capacity to tank offensive threats and place immediate pressure on the opponent, either through damage output or utility.

Trace just isn't that great this generation. It is helpful vs Heatran, Zeraora, speed-boosting abilities, and (maybe) Landorus. Those are really the only ones that stand out. As Brian Geniouse stated, the CAP metagame already has a viable (if not optimised) user of Trace.

Sticky Hold is much worse. Keeping HDB is a small benefit when the three most common Knock Off users have very powerful SE attacks.

Filter is more like a compromise for those that think Ice Scales/Fur Coat will be unbalanced. Filter will not change matchups in the same way that ice Scales/ Fur Coat would, but it would also force 30b into a more explicitly defensive role to make use of the ability. IIRC, CAP30 wasn't going to have boosting moves because of Tinted Lens on 30i, and Poison/Flying are shit STABs, so taking the Necrozma sweeper route isn't really an option (nor would it be an effective one). I will say though that in order to not be OHKO'd by HDB Zeraora's Plasma Fists after rocks without defensive EV investment, you need base stats of at least 100 HP and 105 Def.
 

dex

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  • Fur Coat / Ice Scales: Although these abilities are technically restricted, I'm more than willing to see them discussed at this point. If they garner enough support I'd be more than happy to allow either one.
    • How do we gain the most from a direct boost to one of our defenses, bearing in mind that Ice Scales simply reduces the damage taken while Fur Coat doubles the stat?
      • I think what we gain is pretty straight forward. We become better at tanking that side of the attacking spectrum. I think our typing leans more towards the physically defensive side, but both are obviously powerful abilities in their own right. Also, Fur Coat essentially is the same as Ice Scales, it does not boost stuff like Body Press nor is it ignored by critical hits, which is notable for the Urshifu matchup.
    • Does picking a purely defensive ability shoehorn us into a defensive role? What offensive strategies might be bolstered by these abilities?
      • I'd say it doesn't necessarily shoehorn us into a defensive role, but it sure does make the option more appealing. The main offensive strategy would involve these abilities is setup sweeper, notably different from CAP30i.
    • In what specific instances might these abilities benefit us the most? In what matchups might they fall short?
      • Again, these abilities are really straight forward. They help in matchups against whatever attackers are on that side of the spectrum, and fall short in the matchups they have no effect in.
    • As an aside, I don't really like these abilities too much. Optimizing them seems quite simple, and while it is definitely achievable and they are pro-concept, I don't see what we have to learn from them.
  • Trace:
    • I'll chime in along the rest of the people and say that Trace should be off the table. Jumbao is already a supremely good user of Trace, copying Heatran's Flash Fire, Landorus-T's Intimidate, and Slowking's Regenerator are all excellent things that Jumbao does. Considering Jumbao's dominance in the current metagame, I don't see the attraction of trying to optimize Trace.
  • Sticky Hold:
    • What direction can we take from this ability outside of being able to retain Heavy Duty Boots on a Flying type?
      • In all honesty, I think Sticky Hold is only going to be used for retaining HDB. HDB is just that good of an item. While this is not an inherently bad thing, there really isn't too much else going on with this ability.
    • How might this be optimized to make CAP 30 stand out from mons that already have Sticky Hold?
      • The other user of Sticky Hold, Gastrodon, sports a resistance to rocks and usually runs its much better ability: Storm Drain. It would not be hard to separate CAP30b from Gastrodon.
  • Filter:
    • How does our typing complement Filter? When do we benefit most from the ability, and when is it least impactful?
      • In all honesty, our typing does not complement Filter. The types Poison / Flying is weak to hit extremely hard, and CAP30b would most likely would just be avoiding an OHKO as opposed to just dying, which in my opinion is not the best use of Filter. While the ability still has merit to me on a setup sweeper, I think that is the only role it would work well on with the typing.

  • Abilities I think should be slated:
    • Thick Fat
      • This is currently my favorite ability in the mix, providing CAP30b with a defined niche vs. Heatran. I think this ability gives us a lot flexibility in future stages while not eating too much of our power cap.
    • Stamina
      • I'm not a huge fan of Stamina, but there have been compelling arguments for it that are worth a read and I think it deserves a slot.
    • No Guard
      • No Guard is very straightforward in its application. I do think it treads on some of the same ground as Tinted Lens, but it is different enough to me.
    • Gale Wings
      • I think this ability is heavily slept on. Given the proper offensive potential, and Gale Wings turns into a dangerous win condition that would be a fun give and take for the rest of the process.
    • Sticky Hold
      • While it's not as flashy as the other abilities, I think Sticky Hold really does work here. The only truly powerful Knock Off user in the current metagame is Weavile, which we probably lose to anyways. It's much nicer being able to come in on Arghonaut or Toxapex Knock.
  • Abilities I am iffy on:
    • Water Bubble
      • Water Bubble is a very powerful ability, one that, while it would be very interesting to work with, has some flaws to it that I had not really realized prior.
    • Filter
      • Filter does not really synergize with our typing all that much, though I do see its potential use.
    • Fur Coat/Ice Scales
      • These are applicable abilities, but uninteresting from a learning point of view.
  • Abilities I think should not be slated:
    • Corrosion
      • I and many others have already made our arguments as to why Corrosion should not be slated. Read the posts, I won't rehash it here.
    • Trace
      • Trace is already competently used by Jumbao.
 
As might be expected from examining the potential behind two very powerful abilities, discussion regarding both Corrosion and Water Bubble has been fairly divisive. While I do personally enjoy operating with a high power ceiling, I'm finding myself very much on the fence about slating either at this time. If you have any final arguments for or against their inclusion, now would be a good time to make them.
I want to respond to this part of the post from the perspective of someone who primarily lurks & votes on CAP. I've been keeping up with CAP since Voodoom, and I've made something like 10 non-voting posts over that entire time. This doesn't mean that I don't have opinions on things, just that I often find myself feeling that what I have to say is inadequate compared to the people who are able to put together lengthy, eloquent posts furnished with ample illustrations and examples of their claims. Why should I make a 100-word post just to voice that I have been convinced by the pro-Corrosion and anti-Water Bubble lobbies? I feel that I have nothing productive to contribute to the discussion that hasn't been better stated by someone else.

How does CAP capture that sentiment from people like me? Historically, people like me make our voices heard through the vote. We do have the Like button now, which is awesome, but I am not sure enough time with it has passed that using the number of reactions as a way of measuring consensus (as opposed to written-out posts) is a habit. So, I think that, especially with controversial options, the best way to gauge community opinion is the vote, as that is how a large part of the community makes their voices heard. Both Corrosion and Water Bubble have had strong arguments for and against - I would prefer to see them both slated to honor the discussion that has been had, and people can use their vote to indicate how they've been convinced one way or the other.

I'm generally in favor of larger slates rather than smaller ones. If an option is truly that unpopular, it won't survive the various rounds of voting. Both the abilities in question here have seen great arguments for and against, and I feel that any slate that lacks both of these options wouldn't truly capture the discussion had in this thread.

TL;DR - When in doubt, slate it and let the people decide!
 
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MrDollSteak

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Discussion in this thread has been continuing really well, thank you to everyone who's chipped in so far!
  • Trace:
    • In what situations can Trace be used most effectively? How might we be able encourage those situations in standard gameplay?
    • What can we do to differentiate ourselves from existing users of Trace and/or use the ability to a fuller extent than them?
    • Does choosing this ability force us to specifically target threats currently popular in the metagame, or are there any ways this ability can be made effective against a wider array of mons?
  • Sticky Hold:
    • What direction can we take from this ability outside of being able to retain Heavy Duty Boots on a Flying type?
    • How might this be optimized to make CAP 30 stand out from mons that already have Sticky Hold?
Other users have done an excellent job of speaking to Fur Coat, Ice Scales and Filter, so I don't have much else to say beyond, I also do not like these abilities for 30b.

I would also like to, instead of discussing Trace discuss Wandering Spirit. As others have recently pointed out, Trace is already effectively used by Jumbao, and I think that entertaining it is against the spirit of the concept. However, I think many of the points that make Trace interesting can also be applied to Wandering Spirit that has seen some previous discussion in the thread, even if it is a weaker ability in general. As Darek points out, while in many ways the ability can be seen as 'Trace-lite', particularly because it only triggers on contact, it does still have some additional separate utility in denying the ability on the original Pokemon, especially because some common Knock Off users in the metagame do like their abilities. While it's still probably a worse trade overall to lose your boots to deny Pex Regenerator recover, it is still quite nifty and something that teams might be able to take advantage of. The main thing that Wandering Spirit implies however to make good use of its ability is a physically defensive lean in order to potentially take on Pokemon such as Zeraora, Ferrothorn and Astrolotl that are likely to hit it and would be potentially impacted by losing their abilities. Otherwise I don't think it forces too much from us in regards to needing to target Pokemon in the metagame. I personally don't think this is the best ability, but it's one potentially worth entertaining.

Sticky Hold is an ability that is functionally fine, but that seems really bad for this process considering its effect is already replicated better by CAP30i. Admittedly being able to ignore Rocks forever instead of njust the straight damage boost that is provided by CAP30i is still quite important, it does strike me as being a bit of a waste and does little to differentiate both formes. I don't think there's much to say in terms of comparisons to other viable Sticky Hold users as there aren't many. By virtue of not being particularly Knock weak we are already as close to achieving the benefits of Sticky Hold as can be.
 
I want to respond to this part of the post from the perspective of someone who primarily lurks & votes on CAP. I've been keeping up with CAP since Voodoom, and I've made something like 10 non-voting posts over that entire time. This doesn't mean that I don't have opinions on things, just that I often find myself feeling that what I have to say is inadequate compared to the people who are able to put together lengthy, eloquent posts furnished with ample illustrations and examples of their claims. Why should I make a 100-word post just to voice that I have been convinced by the pro-Corrosion and anti-Water Bubble lobbies? I feel that I have nothing productive to contribute to the discussion that hasn't been better stated by someone else.

How does CAP capture that sentiment from people like me? Historically, people like me make our voices heard through the vote. We do have the Like button now, which is awesome, but I am not sure enough time with it has passed that using the number of reactions as a way of measuring consensus (as opposed to written-out posts) is a habit. So, I think that, especially with controversial options, the best way to gauge community opinion is the vote, as that is how a large part of the community makes their voices heard. Both Corrosion and Water Bubble have had strong arguments for and against - I would prefer to see them both slated to honor the discussion that has been had, and people can use their vote to indicate how they've been convinced one way or the other.

I'm generally in favor of larger slates rather than smaller ones. If an option is truly that unpopular, it won't survive the various rounds of voting. Both the abilities in question here have seen great arguments for and against, and I feel that any slate that lacks both of these options wouldn't truly capture the discussion had in this thread.

TL;DR - When in doubt, slate it and let the people decide!
I agree - Corrosion and Water Bubble both deserve to be on the slate. I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but in my opinion, both have the potential to be much more interesting than most of the other options.

I also support slating No Guard, Gale Wings, and Wandering Spirit, and I'm not a fan of Fur Coat/Fluffy/Ice Scales.
 
I would also like to, instead of discussing Trace discuss Wandering Spirit
I will make a short post to second this. Trace should not qualify purely because of the existence of :jumbao:. Wandering Spirit is a way to approach a similar ability-stealing ability through a more unique trigger system.

I would also, once again want to stress that Fur Coat / Ice Scales are not worth pursuing. We might as well have Ball Fetch with Avalugg stats if we go down the path of Fur Coat. With no alternative ability, these stat doubling abilities lose the only thing that makes them interesting, which is the choice between using them and not using them. I am making the assumption we have no alternative ability because that would require us to be making a CAP process with 3 competitive abilities in total across its 2 forms, which I forget if it was established if we were going to do that or not. There are more interesting ways to pursue purely defensive typings such as Thick Fat or Fluffy.
 
I think its pretty obvious where I stand. Plenty of users besides myself including notable CAP alumnus have come in support of Corrosion/Water Bubble out of the fact that it'll make the process fresh and interesting (besides all of the other previous arguments made on the merits of the two abilities, I won't regurgitate what myself and others have said already). Clearly there is support for them to be integrated into the process, whatever challenges they may present, so I feel Corrosion and Water Bubble should both be slated in the voting. Us the community really should be deciding whether we're up to the undertaking of optimizing these abilities or not (I have full faith that we can, and as mentioned by quite a few people, the panic is pretty exaggerated, notably Dogfish44, the TL himself, MrDollSteak, and spoo to name a few).

Some of the other abilities being considered to be slated over them, in my opinion alone, are either blatantly anti-concept (Trace other users already mentioned why, but Thick Fat we've seen from the likes of Mega Venusaur in the previous two generations), too linear (Fur Coat/Ice Scales not really exploring much of anything, despite them being under-optimized), or are simply too underwhelming in tandem with our chosen typing (Gale Wings being heavily HDB/Roost reliant and Sticky Hold really only good for Knock Off absorption/keeping an item). At the very least Fluffy (to a very limited extent), Wandering Spirit, Filter, No Guard, and Stamina all bring something interesting to the rest of the process if chosen, but I worry about their lack of addressing our Steel weakness will get 30b overshadowed by the offensive prowess of 30i. 30b needs a strong enough niche to be able to compete and really have a reason to be considered using in a team slot over 30i.

Edit: I wouldn't be too overly cautious, because just like being too loose of the power-ceiling, being too restrictive also has consequences. This is a framework CAP, why shouldn't we be adventurous?. I get there's a fine line and a balance we'd have to achieve, but neither Corrosion or Water Bubble alone cross that line--it's compounding elements that we have a lot of control over that many on the anti-Corrosion/Water Bubble side are fearing. We have the stats stage and the movepool stage still, these are both excellent times to put balance into action like every other recent CAP. We've seen what happens to a CAP when there's too much restrain (even in very recent CAPs), so lets not let the big 30 fall to victim too.
 
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dex

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but I worry about their lack of addressing our Steel weakness will get 30b overshadowed by the offensive prowess of 30i.
I'm sorry but why is this important? Losing to Steel-types is not the end of the world; in fact, it gives us defined checks for 30i which is quite nice, and there is more than one way to pressure Steel-types (i.e. Knock Off, any number of coverage options). 30i can inhabit a completely different role than 30b and not be overshadowed because of that fact. They are not trying to accomplish the same thing.
This is a framework CAP, why shouldn't we be adventurous?
This is not a good mentality to have. We are balancing two CAPs here, and Corrosion puts undue stress on the movepool stage for 30i. Moves that would undoubtedly help 30i are downright busted with Corrosion. Corrosion takes a lot of resources away from us, strictly limiting the future stages unhealthily. Trying to make an "adventurous" CAP sounds great until it breaks the game and ruins the other half of the process. Giving this CAP more leeway just because it is a framework makes no sense. In fact, the opposite should be true given the situation.
30b needs a strong enough niche to be able to compete and really have a reason to be considered using in a team slot over 30i.
Or just a different niche? A shared typing means little if it inhabits a totally different role than 30i. Corviknight and Skarmory have the same typing and even similar stats, but both are quite viable because they perform different roles for a team (defog/pivot vs. spikes/wall). Trying to have 30b compete with 30i makes little to no sense. They can't even be on the same team anyways due to species clause. If they have different roles and perform well in those roles, then there's no need to worry about 30i having a better matchup into Steel-types than 30b.
 
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I'm sorry but why is this important? Losing to Steel-types is not the end of the world; in fact, it gives us defined checks for 30i which is quite nice, and there is more than one way to pressure Steel-types (i.e. Knock Off, any number of coverage options). 30i can inhabit a completely different role than 30b and not be overshadowed because of that fact. They are not trying to accomplish the same thing.
It's important to not be dead-weight against Steels (and especially dual Steels like that of Corviknight, Aegislash, and Heatran) because they make up a pretty significant portion of the metagame. We don't have to counter them, per say, but not being a complete dud would make for a less restrictive rest of the process. I'm not sure if you grasp the gravity of what you just said, because by your apparent standard, there would be a pretty good chance of a crowded list of defined checks--which we don't want. Feel free to correct me if I read what you said wrong though.
This is not a good mentality to have. We are balancing two CAPs here, and Corrosion puts undue stress on the movepool stage for 30i. Moves that would undoubtedly help 30i are downright busted with Corrosion. Corrosion takes a lot of resources away from us, strictly limiting the future stages unhealthily. Trying to make an "adventurous" CAP sounds great until it breaks the game and ruins the other half of the process. Giving this CAP more leeway just because it is a framework makes no sense. In fact, the opposite should be true given the situation.
Clearly you didn't read the rest of that excerpt, because I followed that up with this:
This is a framework CAP, why shouldn't we be adventurous?. I get there's a fine line and a balance we'd have to achieve, but neither Corrosion or Water Bubble alone cross that line--it's compounding elements that we have a lot of control over that many on the anti-Corrosion/Water Bubble side are fearing. We have the stats stage and the movepool stage still, these are both excellent times to put balance into action like every other recent CAP.
The point I was making was being overly restrained in the rest of the process, which sadly CAP has had a habit of falling into. You're right, we are balancing two CAPs, but how is one imposing much on the other with the existence of TL as it is? We'll likely have to limit our offensive/overall BST to some extent as it is, how do you suppose Corrosion or Water Bubble are going to change those facts? How about with the movepool stage too (Corrosion putting in some passivity and Water Bubble not being able to nuke with Water STABs, for instance)? Water Bubble or Corrosion can actually make for a process that can truly explore optimizing (and in turn, balancing) unoptimized abilities. I personally don't see the issue of going full-throttle to fulfill that concept; I think it makes the process all the more interesting.
 
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I’d like to add on to what spoo said in regards to Water Bubble. I really don’t think it’d be too hard to balance WB since it inherently has more defensive benefits than offensive benefits. The boost to Water moves is definitely solid and we can totally use that, but I think the most interesting route we could take with this ability (whilst also not competing with 30i) would be a defensive WB user. I made a post about this previously, but the strongest niche this can provide us is one that, to my understanding, is wholly unique: a defensive mon that is immune to both toxic and burn. This effectively raises our staying power immensely, and due to a combination of our typing and the use of WB as an ability, makes us essentially the most perfect Heatran counter possible. That alone is enough of a reason to consider WB, let alone slate it. In conjunction with our shared movepool with 30i (for a utility wallbreaker, Taunt and Toxic could very well wind up in our arsenal), I think we could use WB very effectively fo a prime defensive role.
The concern of WB being too strong offensively is simply not a huge issue, in my opinion, as the easiest solution is to lower the BP of the moves we have available. People have drawn comparisons between WB and Thick Fat in terms of being a Heatran check/counter, and I genuinely don’t think that Thick Fat would be as useful in the long run. Yes, TF would assist our Heatran matchup and with other prevalent Fires, but I don’t totally see it really helping with our Ice matchup as much as people have said. It may be shortsighted on my part, but as good as the matter of turning OHKOs to 2HKOs is, what does that really enable us to do? Ice breakers (pun intended) are very prevalent in the meta at present, with Weavile being the best it’s ever been, Kyurem being as strong as ever due in no small part to its monstrous specs set, and the recently crazy Arctozolt (which eats us for breakfast anyway). The most we realistically could do is get some good chip damage off or maybe Toxic the opponent before we get absolutely chunked and forced to switch, or we get nailed on the switch as it is. Thick Fat just doesn’t seem as useful in the long run, especially in the face of the other benefits WB has in addition to the Fire resistance.

On another note, I agree with MrDollSteak and Jewvia that Wandering Spirit should be slated instead of Trace, as Jumbao already uses the latter very effectively and the ability is therefore anti-concept as a result. Wandering Spirit is very interesting and I would love to see some more discussion about it. A contact-based Skill Swap is very cool and could provide some very compelling interactions with the meta. I think there’s more than enough material there to explore it further.

Ice Scales/Fur Coat are cool since they inherently ease our constraints on BST, but at this point I do wonder how much there is to learn from these abilities. I’m also iffy about purely offensive abilities like No Guard, mostly because I don’t think an ability that is inherently offensive in nature would really be our best bet for 30b. 100% accurate Hurricanes and Gunk Shots are pretty cool, but that aside, our typing doesn’t totally lend itself to a purely offensive role for 30b since we don’t have the STAB item or TL to augment our lackluster offensive typing. Poison/Flying has a lot more defensive merit inherit to it than offensive potential, and I think that’s something we should capitalize on.

Filter is cool, but I think it’s more of an on-paper ability at this point, and is far less specialized than some of the other abilities that have been discussed. That said, it’s certainly a good ability and I wouldn’t be disappointed if we had a process working with it. I do find Sticky Hold profoundly boring however, and I think we should leave the role of “Knock-Off absorber” to 30i. Putting it bluntly, I think Sticky Hold would be a waste of time in comparison to the other options. Lastly, I do like Stamina a lot, since it allows for a defensive presence that is multifaceted in that it gets gradually stronger over time whilst enhancing offensive pressure due to Body Press. Definitely should be slated, imo.
 
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Hopping on the bandwagon to agree sticky hold shouldn’t be slated. While you can go a lot of ways with it, at the end of the day, its main benefit is absorbing Knock Off, which 30i already does. While you can go different ways, such as a defensive ‘mon or such, the list of ‘mons that 30b would check/counter with the ability would almost completely overlap with the things 30i would target.
 
I don’t think ice scales and fur coat deserve to be slated. They are just incredibly shallow abilities on a typing, that already is solid defensively. Poison/Flying already has enough resists, to become pretty bulky with average defensive stats and investment.
If we had a much weaker defensive typing like water/grass (almost no valuable resists) I’d say it might be interesting, bc ice scales/fur coat mean a weakness becomes a neutrality a neutrality a resist and a resist a super resist, similar to how Blissey basically “resists” almost anything on the Special side, that doesn’t hit it SE.

Fluffy is a very similar ability, but the restrictions it has offer a lot more interesting design Space. Resisting Contact moves from any type (but fire)gives this mon an entirely different defensive niche.
I’m not sure how to evaluate Poison/Flying with fluffy though, given that the most viable offensive users of contact moves hit 30b super effectively or use Knock off, meaning fluffy 30b doesn’t want to come in to take these hits and prevents it from becoming a great physical wall, that can take on physical threats. Rather than that it shores up its weakness to two mons that would usually beat it.
This means fluffy is suddenly closer to Filter, than it is to fur coat, and in that case filter offers a lot more design space imo:

I do think filter is worth slating here, bc it only targets the Pokémons weaknesses. Making a mon that has a good set of resists and basically no real weakness, is something that is very rare. Exploring how to design a mon, that never takes damage from any type and still resists a good bunch of types, is something pretty novel and holds some depth.
That said I’m am not interested in it too much myself, I just think Filter is inoffensive to be slated.

Sticky hold is a meme as much as normal/ghost by now. It helps shore up a weakness in 30bs design, but other than that offers nothing interesting.

Trace should not be slated as Jumbao is an excellent user of Trace.


Also hot take: Thick fat is dangerously close of not being eligible imo, as Mega Venusaur got so much out of that ability and was solidly viable in gen7. Imo it’s only worth considering bc fire resist, that isn’t water dragon or fire is definitely interesting, although then water bubble is just so much more interesting to me, bc it not only has this defensive aspect, but adds the offensive component as well.

I have given up on corrosion as I see too much push back and at that point think it’s fairer to slate something else over it, even though I think it’s the best fitting ability in consideration.
 
Just put them all up for a vote. I personally am on team pro-corrosion, but votes will tell you for sure instead of long winded arguing. This feels like it's already gone on way longer than normal already
 

Brambane

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The argument that Sticky Hold is a bad choice for us because 30i is already Knock absorber is asinine. The obvious reason is unKnockable HDB alone is functionally different than 30i's signature item; even if they both "absorb item removal" the function of said item is so vastly different that overlap between the two is minor. You can hate Sticky Hold because it's boring as shit, but making it out that we are treading on 30i's design space is purely fallacious.

If the amount of discussion it has generated is an indicator of anything, its that CAP 100% should explore Corrosion as an ability. The implications of Toxic hitting Steel/Poison kind of subverts a fundamental quality of competitive Pokemon which reinforces both types as defensively useful. These types of projects imo is where CAP thrives; breaking down and examining the game's many nuances through the creation of a new Pokemon that spotlights them. Arghonaut did this with Unaware, Equilibra with Doom Desire, Miasmaw is NGas, etc etc. Corrosion is another great tool for challenging our understanding of the game. The ability really seems like one perfectly made for CAP.

...But just not right now. Corrosion imo needs to be the focus of the project from the on-set, much like Doom Desire was the focus for Equilibra. The one thing that EVERYONE seems to agree on in this thread is that Corrosion is a strong AF ability. Such a powerful ability should really be addressed way earlier in the process; I think we have already shot ourselves in the foot with Corrosion by giving CAP30b Poison/Flying. The most accessible way to balance Corrosion is to ensure that the few Pokemon that don't give a single shit about Corrosion Toxic, i.e. Clefable, Tapu Fini, and Snaelstrom lmao, can reliably switch-in, and we have already (partially) closed that door with our STABs before the discussion could even begin. That is just an example of what I mean by us needing to talk about Corrosion way earlier in the process.

But more importantly, we don't even have the slate and there have been discussion in live chat about certain moves that Corrosion shouldn't have access to, and how that might affect 30i. If that discussion has already started, its going to keep going, and the moves being mentioned (i.e. Taunt, Roost, Knock Off) are really tools we want on the table for 30i. While I think having some discussion about "compromising" movepools so both forms come up somewhat satisfied is unique and plays into the framework, I am not going to pretend I didn't vote for Utility Wallbreaker and Poison/Flying with moves like Roost, Taunt, and Knock Off out of mind. Yes, ofc we are obligated to disclaimer that "nothing is set in stone" to avoid being called a polljumper, but certain types and roles come with certain assumptions. I do not think we should limit CAP30i's options by choosing an ability that really, since it was brought up, has had limiting it from certain utility moves as a primary point of discussion.

Corrosion is great for CAP; just not this CAP.
 
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Earthflax

formerly OofTheQuagsire
the strongest niche this can provide us is one that, to my understanding, is wholly unique: a defensive mon that is immune to both toxic and burn.
mollux in SHAMBLES, mollux in RUINS.

my thoughts on some of these abilities:

filter: i think that while this ability is very interesting, it’s better left for another process. the problem is that, as someone said earlier in the thread, moves that hit us do more than competent damage on their own, and taking 60 instead of 80 isn’t something i’m particularly interested in.

sticky hold: i think that this ability is boring as shit but it helps with our power budget, i suppose. permaboosted knock isn’t my favorite honestly, but i guess it’s good enough.

thick fat: easily my fav of the bunch being discussed right now. being a flying type that doesn’t get absolutely mauled by weavile and ice type moves in general is very nice, and the fire resistance helps our matchup vs heatran who we’d be pretty helpless against, coverage not permitting.

water bubble: a bit more offensively oriented. feels a little unnecessary to add random pseudostab here but i think it would still help it a lot especially in comparison to its tlens brother.

the big one: corrosion is completely unnecessary and forces us to jump through hoops to achieve a good but not broken result, likely having to deny important tools for 30i in the process. i think the ability is fire as hell but it’s not the time for this one, chief.

fluffy fur scales: the most interesting out of these is fluffy, as it aids specific matchups while giving up efficacy in others, but as Jewvia said this feels supremely uninteresting because they can be achieved by pure stats anyways.

might edit in more later idk

tldr: adore thick fat, indifferent to water bubble, don’t like anything else
 
Water Bubble is definitely worth slating, there's been a lot of strong arguments for it and the flexibility we have with this Ability's mixture of offensive/defensive benefits would be good for process diversity. I don't know if it's an option I'm totally sold on but there's enough support for it out there it really deserves a shot. We have a lot of control over how strong we want Water Bubble to be through both Stats and Movepool so I don't see it as particularly dangerous (especially when it has to win the vote vs. everything else, and there's a sizeable movement against it).

Real quick I also want to talk about Sticky Hold as being able to keep our item opens up a lot more strategies which are nigh-impossible to pull off otherwise because of Knock Off's presense in the metagame. Our typing does encourage us to run HDB so Stealth Rocks aren't an issue, which makes justifying other items a lot harder. Regardless I don't think it would hurt to consider what we can do when our item can't be manipulated.

Just as a couple ideas:
  • Berries and related moves are much stronger and more reliable.
  • In a similar vein Recycle can be used alongside consumable items without fear that our item gets removed and Recycle becomes worthless: would allow for interesting setup/recovery options using Berries.
  • Thief/Trick lets us take an opponent's item and prevents them from taking it back or removing it: sorta roundabout way of using Knock Off but could be useful in tandem with a single-use item.
None of these are amazing attributes to have but are a unique secondary which wouldn't hurt us to explore a bit, as Sticky Hold is otherwise the most straightforward option supported right now.
 
Except Sticky Hold means that we get hit consistently by Knock Off, which gets the Power Boost all the time, which not only effects us, but encourages its spamming: either it deals additional neutral damage to CAP30 for free, and it is not encouraged to switch to another movetype that another mon can take advantage of (via resistance) with said other mon also losing item.

Sticky Hold is a potentially decent ability: but I'm not sure 30b is the one to capitalise on it, the best Interaction I can think of is consistently baiting out Phys, especially Fighting, hits into Rocky Helmet and healing it off with Roost. But then that means 25% SR and no Black Sludge.
 
So Trace doesnt sound valid for slating at all, so I'll write about Wandering Spirit. I went through the VR and listed all the interactions with mons, the ones not listed dont interact in a meaningful way or likely arent ranked on the VR:
Mons reliably annoyed by Wandering Spirit:
:astrolotl: if we beat astrolotl, switching in on fire lash and making it so it cant trade hits is annoying- especially when we regen on the way out in return.
:hawlucha: really good, no question

Mons situationally annoyed by Wandering Spirit:
:colossoil: lets us toxic it without feeling as pressured, somewhat useful.
:dragonite: removing multiscale definitely helps if its still up
:scizor: i think this doesnt affect scizor or us too much by the swap however its possible that we are able to lower the damage potential of a boosting scizor.
:skarmory: we can remove the sturdy on skarmory for another pokemon, or if we force it out we might be able to hold on to a sturdy for ourselves.
:toxapex: we might be able to deny regen, but this isnt as easy as astro as scald is still annoying and might be pressed instead. not that helpful if its at 100%
:tornadus-therian: we might be able to deny regen on a u-turn if it isnt at 100%
:revenankh: i dont really think this has a good enough interaction as this should definitely win if it comes in safely already, but it might stop a sweep by removing triage.

Mons that could be mistaken for annoyed by Wandering Spirit:
:arghonaut: uses contact moves and it could be seen as a way around Unaware as a booster, but that contact move also phases you
:crucibelle: risky switchin since it has SE stab
:blissey: it should be pretty easy for blissey to shrug toxic during the match even if you manage to stick it in one interaction
:garchomp: :ferrothorn: seems good at first, but it wouldnt affect a 1v1 matchup (ur prob a special attacker if ur doing wandering spirit, beat ferro anyway (?) and chomp doesnt use contact moves) meanwhile likely forced out by their next switchin rather than trying to make anything out of the chip dmg
:kartana: this typing should already stop kartana from getting beast boosts meanwhile im not so sure we will be making much out of that ability
:landorus-therian: the mon either uses no contact moves or contact moves like uturn (which will render intimidate unhelpful) or knock (rarely used with stone edge on the same set, meaning u already likely stomp that set)
:clefable: it first has to be affected by toxic already for this to create a valid problem, while also needs to be spamming knock off an incessant amount with no self-regard- ideally after staying in for 5+ turns. I dont think this ability is ever likely to cause an issue for Clef

in general, i would consider the list of reliably affected mons to be a bit wonky. i think there isnt really a standout "great" mon among them as well as most of the situationally affected mons, although there are a couple situational mons in tornadus and toxapex where it would be really good to deny their regen. a lot of the interactions are also a bit shitty/low impact. but the ability does feel a bit barebones to me in the current metagame. I think itd suck if it got a position on the slate just for the purpose of kicking off Trace, which can just happen by itself. tldr; dont think Trace should be on the slate, but I dont think Wandering Spirit is eventful enough to be on the slate either.

Quck rundown on the other abils: I went back and forth on Corrosion, and in the end I dont know whether I like it or not. I still don't really like Water Bubble as I think its generic qualities can be framed to be good on anything, similar to Magic Guard- and even though we have a basically non-existent bar when it comes to concept fulfilment I cant get behind calling it an optimized Water Bubble mon when its not a Water type. Fan of Thick Fat and Stamina for the reasons ppl have mentioned a lot before, and I've changed my mind on No Guard (i dont like it) because Aurumoth already has used a ton of the non-wack low accuracy moves and done it well.

edit: oh and sticky hold is boring as piss i dont think its even worth slating cus it stands no chance of winning and it only helps make the two forms more similar which is awful
 
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Excited to see discussion of Wandering Spirit.

So Trace doesnt sound valid for slating at all, so I'll write about Wandering Spirit. I went through the VR and listed all the interactions with mons, the ones not listed dont interact in a meaningful way or likely arent ranked on the VR:
If we go through the VR and just list interactions with mons, a lot of the abilities begin to look similar.

For example:

Thick Fat only interacts with Heatran, Weavile, Kyurem, Astro, Blace, Victini and Volc in the top ranks. Even if we can touch Heatran, Victini's other STAB screws us. I guess Glowking and Zapdos use Fire as coverage, but they both beat us too. Further down there's Syclant, Blaziken, Torkoal and Moltres.

Corrosion: Only interacts with Heatran, Glowking, Scizor, Pex, Melmetal, Skarm in the top ranks. Lower in the rankings there's a bunch of less-often-seen Steels such as Aegislash, Bisharp, Equilibra, Ferro, Kart, Drill. Cawm does not care.

Filter: Weavile, the slows, Zera, Koko, Kyurem, Slowking, Lele, Zapdos. Further down there's Zolt, Zone, Victini and Ttar. You still take a butt-ton of damage from all of these.

Water Bubble: Since people are hyping up the defensive utility, these are the mons we avoid burn from: Pult, Heatran, Pex, Slowking. These are the mons we take reduced damage from: Heatran, Astro, Victini, Volc, Glowking, Zapdos. We lose to Victini, Glowking and Zapdos.

Abilities with constant effects such as Stamina, Cotton Down, Fur Coat/Ice Scales, and the Water-boosting effect of Water Bubble are impossible to analyze in this way because they're always in effect.

From Pip's post, there are 9 mons that Wandering Spirit can take advantage of. I would argue a few of the pokemon in the "mistaken for being annoyed category" can be taken advantage of in non-niche scenarios. Excluding those, there are still Buzzwole, Cawm, Excadrill and Barraskewda that Wandering Spirit can reliably interact with, plus situationally Zeraora, Corv, Bisharp, Equilibra, Blaziken, Tangrowth. Even ignoring all of these guys as well, 9 is a pretty comparable number to the above abilities. It may not help against any current S rank mons, but there are plenty of relevant, solid mons that it does help against. Teams are not solely made up of S rank mons, and forcing the opponent to play more carefully can work in your favor even if the Wandering Spirit mon never actually comes out in battle.

I am not in any way claiming that Wandering Spirit is stronger than (or even as strong as) the abilities listed above, but I don't think it should be discounted on this basis. I will admit it would probably work better on a mon that isn't dependent on HDB, given the ubiquity of Knock Off.

--------------------------------------------------------

Corrosion
and Water Bubble: I think both of these would need a full dedicated process and I would not be thrilled if they were slated, but (if the TL deems them legal for this process) I think they should be slated given the amount of discussion they have generated.

Trace: Should not be slated because Jumbao.

Thick Fat: I like this as an ability, but knowing M-Venusaur saw significant play and probably used it better than 30b can (being weak to both Fire and Ice and having access to Earthquake) makes me uncomfortable. Would prefer this to not be slated, but it was talked about a lot.

No Guard: Would rather it not be slated because M-Pidgeot and Machamp did it justice already. We would probably be building around whatever powerful coverage/sleep move we decide to give it. Not super interesting in general.

Fur Coat/Ice Scales: Don't like them, but don't see why they shouldn't be slated. Pretty boring.

Fluffy: I view this completely separately from the above pair. Far more situational and interesting, with a specific downside. Would be interesting to balance because we don't blanket check every attacker from one side. I like it. Slate it.

Sticky Hold:
oh and sticky hold is boring as piss i dont think its even worth slating cus it stands no chance of winning and it only helps make the two forms more similar which is awful
Stamina: Great ability with interesting paths to explore. No question about legality for this process, and overall positive opinions from everyone who has addressed it. Should be the first ability on the slate.

Filter: Personally don't think we have much to gain from this, but don't see why it shouldn't be slated.

Gale Wings: I would really really really hate not being able to switch in on U-turns. I am very much do not liking this ability. It's legal and generated a bunch of discussion though, so should probably be slated.

------------------------------------------------------------

Not to derail the conversation, but I'm going to make one last quick mention of Cotton Down. It got a bunch of early support, then no discussion afterwards. I still think it's a decent ability, especially given the number of resists we have, especially 4x. It's a balanced ability; it's very good against fast/frail mons and offense, but quite passive outside of forcing switches. In general, I think it's an ability that definitely fits the concept, has great synergy with our typing, and will be useful against any team with any offensive presence.
 
Excited to see discussion of Wandering Spirit.



If we go through the VR and just list interactions with mons, a lot of the abilities begin to look similar.

For example:

Thick Fat only interacts with Heatran, Weavile, Kyurem, Astro, Blace, Victini and Volc in the top ranks. Even if we can touch Heatran, Victini's other STAB screws us. I guess Glowking and Zapdos use Fire as coverage, but they both beat us too. Further down there's Syclant, Blaziken, Torkoal and Moltres.

Corrosion: Only interacts with Heatran, Glowking, Scizor, Pex, Melmetal, Skarm in the top ranks. Lower in the rankings there's a bunch of less-often-seen Steels such as Aegislash, Bisharp, Equilibra, Ferro, Kart, Drill. Cawm does not care.

Filter: Weavile, the slows, Zera, Koko, Kyurem, Slowking, Lele, Zapdos. Further down there's Zolt, Zone, Victini and Ttar. You still take a butt-ton of damage from all of these.

Water Bubble: Since people are hyping up the defensive utility, these are the mons we avoid burn from: Pult, Heatran, Pex, Slowking. These are the mons we take reduced damage from: Heatran, Astro, Victini, Volc, Glowking, Zapdos. We lose to Victini, Glowking and Zapdos.

Abilities with constant effects such as Stamina, Cotton Down, Fur Coat/Ice Scales, and the Water-boosting effect of Water Bubble are impossible to analyze in this way because they're always in effect.

From Pip's post, there are 9 mons that Wandering Spirit can take advantage of. I would argue a few of the pokemon in the "mistaken for being annoyed category" can be taken advantage of in non-niche scenarios. Excluding those, there are still Buzzwole, Cawm, Excadrill and Barraskewda that Wandering Spirit can reliably interact with, plus situationally Zeraora, Corv, Bisharp, Equilibra, Blaziken, Tangrowth. Even ignoring all of these guys as well, 9 is a pretty comparable number to the above abilities. It may not help against any current S rank mons, but there are plenty of relevant, solid mons that it does help against. Teams are not solely made up of S rank mons, and forcing the opponent to play more carefully can work in your favor even if the Wandering Spirit mon never actually comes out in battle.

I am not in any way claiming that Wandering Spirit is stronger than (or even as strong as) the abilities listed above, but I don't think it should be discounted on this basis. I will admit it would probably work better on a mon that isn't dependent on HDB, given the ubiquity of Knock Off.
I have to disagree with some of the comparisons, I counted around 3 common mons that have a relevant relationship with Wandering Spirit- Astro, Toxapex, and Tornadus. Out of those, you have to get lucky to actually have it apply to something like Torn and Toxapex who regularly will be clicking other things, or in Torns case has another equally viable set with no contact moves. Furthermore to get maximum impact they need to have already taken damage to deny any HP removal, or you need to take damage to regen yourself.
The examples of other mons are either suuuuper conditionally useful (removing buzzwoles ability to sweep(??) with beast boost, removing cawms electric immunity after its already found a switchin and is +6) or theyre on mons that are at 1% usage.

Im not gunna go all-out in defending Thick Fat because I think its an ok criticism that its more situational than other abilities, but the difference with thick fat is that the main list might be 5 mons total (Heatran, Astro, Volcarona, Weavile, Kyurem) but those mons are top tier, it interacts reliably with them (counter on tran, astro, volc, unrevenged by weavile, questionable kyurem interaction). And it offers some tech-proof elements because fire and ice coverage can be slapped onto a lot more things unlike that ability list which is pretty much set in stone til the end of the gen. You will have this interaction often because heatran and weavile are literally everywhere and its reliable.
Compared to Torn which is the most common mon you'd hope to see with Wandering Spirit, which needs to be the utility set since if you come in on the NP its gunna be bad, and it also needs to click u-turn or knock on the utility set and have less than max hp.
I think the critique that Thick Fat smaller number of interactions (it will commonly have interactions, but not always) is something to consider comparing to something like Corrosion or Stamina which truly have 100% chance of happening during matches, and I think Wandering Spirit having even less is not a good sign.

Im also not rooting for Corrosion but there is a steel or poison type (often both) on every single team and you will have an interaction with the ability every match, 100% guaranteed. In this case its just about usage and team composition rather than number of mons on the VR.

_____________________________________
Just looking at (dated) sample teams we can perhaps get an idea of how much Wandering Spirit actually gets an opportunity to do something:
:dragapult::pajantom::hippowdon::clefable::Mandibuzz::toxapex: you might remove regen from pex
:dragapult::tomohawk::slowking::equilibra::rillaboom::kerfluffle: no interaction
:clefable::heatran::slowking::landorus-therian::tornadus-therian::hydreigon: you might remove regen from torn
:garchomp::melmetal::jumbao::zapdos::tyranitar::toxapex: if ur tanky and can break spdef melmetal you can take its iron fist
:slowking::equilibra::aegislash::zeraora::hydreigon::tomohawk: you can risk getting plasma fisted/volt switched/knocked off/bulk upped by zera maybe even tho it usually volt switches
:garchomp::jumbao::slowking::heatran::mandibuzz::zeraora: same
:regieleki::hawlucha::rillaboom::azumarill::landorus-therian::Cawmodore: you stop hawluchas unburden or you can let azu ko you to stop a belly drum sweep

i also pulled some teams from recent replays to see what it looks like with a more random team:
:colossoil::crucibelle::cyclohm::equilibra::fidgit::jumbao: you can risk ur life vs cruci and if colossoil gets statused you could stop it from dealing more dmg after it smacks you with a super hard knock off
:revenankh::astrolotl::pyroak::cawmodore::necturna::voodoom: you can annoy astro here.
_____________________________________

So it has some interactions in these samples, but theyre unreliable, sometimes feel low-reward and can require a big risk to be taken (or sacrificing our item by switching into knock offs) to get something done.
Basically I just dont realistically think this ability is a great fit because it just doesnt activate in frequent or overly impactful ways on top pokemon and I dont know how we would continue the project trying to work around those fringe examples, half of which seem to require a sacrifice to stop a hyper offensive ability (Blaziken, Barraskewda, Cawm, Navi etc).
And lastly, I just dont think Wandering Spirit does well when not preying on noobs. Realistically if Im at low HP with Tornadus and theres a wandering spirit mon Im going to click hurricane or defog, and i still get a good result clicking knock off too. Im not going to brainlessly u-turn and that makes the activation harder, and it wont ruin my gameplan to not u-turn once in the match- once Im at higher HP, I can go back to u-turning because losing Regen wont matter for me. Same goes for Toxapex who, even if caught on the switch clicking Knock (which will annoyingly remove our item), can still likely click recover and lose nothing. If I get fully outplayed by Wandering Spirit it needs to be at a really low percentage and I need to have greeded and basically messed up. Because its only situationally effective, I need to make the wrong play at the one time where it matters for this to make a big impact.
 
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Mx

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
Fur Coat/Ice Scales: I really don't get the point of these abilities, a flat stat increase could be replicated with high stats (at least to an extent) while also having another ability and frankly they just seem extremely boring to work with.

Fluffy: While this is objectively inferior to Fur Coat, I'd much rather take this option due to the interesting dynamics it creates. Resisting contact moves should let us wall stuff like Urshifu-R, Melmetal, and Hawlucha but in return, this still leaves us vulnerable against mons like Garchomp and Pajantom and also adds a weakness against Heatran. I think this would be a much more interesting route to take if we want to go for a physically defensive ability.

Wandering Spirit/Oblivious: While these abilities are interesting, I feel like their effects aren't really relevant enough to be worth building around. In the case of the former, most of its benefits are extremely situational and depend on the opponent not playing around the ability, doing stuff like constantly spamming Knock Off with Toxapex. The latter seems a lot better in my opinion but just being a special attacker is enough to bypass Intimidate and the most common Taunt user is Heatran, which I think would be targetted much better by Thick Fat, as Oblivious would have to lose a lot of momentum using recovery after taking a neutral Magma Storm, making it much more passive in comparison.

Regarding the final slate, unsurprisingly I don't want Corrosion slated at all, as I think that it risks derailing the projects way too much be a reasonable inclusion. I still dislike Water Bubble on principle for being unnecessary strong but I wouldn't mind seeing it slated, as it should be much more reasonable to handle than Corrosion. I'm also not a fan of the arguments against Thick Fat and No Guard saying that they're not valid abilities because of our concept, as there's still a lot of room to use these abilities in unique ways and mons like M-Pidgeot and M-Venusaur were niche at best last gen.
 

Zetalz

formerly Zetasniper
is a Pre-Contributor
The pushback on Thick Fat due to :venusaur-mega:'s existence I think is warranted, but I disagree that it should invalidate it as an option ala other things like Trace. Despite it being a pretty niche mon (moreso in SM) it's unfair to say that it gets more use of the ability since it's removing 2 weaknesses as opposed to 1, as turning a neutrality into a resist (especially when that resist is Fire) is a valid route that sets it apart from MVenu by actually letting it beat Fires (namely :heatran:) as opposed to not-losing to them.

No Guard is another one that toes that line of eligibility issues, but not for the mons people have stated previously (:machamp: & :pidgeot-mega: are barely viable examples) but more so to do with big :aurumoth:. For most of it's life after losing Illusion Auru used No Guard near-exclusively, using it as a way to raise it's power ceiling and was very meta prevalent prior to it's nerf. Having said that however I think it is possible to make a No Guard user that gets more value of the ability than Auru did beyond a raw damage increase, so it should still be slated.

Out of the 3 defensive stat oriented abilities (Fur Coat/Ice Scales/Fluffy) I'll echo what others have stated that Fluffy should be the ability of choice for the slate. It's the only one of the 3 that offers more interesting design parameters beyond just 'le big number' and offering more targeted resists/weaknesses is only a benefit for the process imo. (please lord give me ANYTHING to switch into shifu comfortably)

On to the controversial options my opinions remain largely unchanged on Corrosion, and I still think it should not be slated. The amount of baggage it brings onto a process where we have to carefully balance two mons I don't think should be downplayed as a lot of users have said, it runs a very real chance of derailing the project to a point where we can't release two satisfying end products and I want to avoid that as much possible (and then Mx goes and says the exact same thing as I'm typing this lmao). Conversely I've mellowed a bit on Water Bubble, I don't particularly like it but as an option that gives 30b a defined niche and direction I'd much rather have this slated than Corrosion, though I do much prefer Thick Fat over it in general.

Just would also like to say that some users seem to have this mentality that because things like Corrosion and Water Bubble received so much discussion that we are beholden to slate them, despite the numerous concerns presented against them, which is frankly just bollocks. Ideally we want as tight of a slate of viable and well-liked options and cutting the most controversial among them isn't some kind of disservice to the project or the users who argued for their inclusion, it's just due process. Having your desired option not be universally well-received and possibly be denied is not a new concept here at CAP, users should be prepared to see things they like not make the cut if the community pushback is strong enough. It might sound harsh but that's just how things are, if we included every heavily talked about controversial option in previous projects we wouldn't be where we are now.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that Stamina is still super cool and I really don't care for the likes of Wandering Spirit, it's kind of laughably bad with how little meaningful interaction it has in the current meta, would rather see it not slated.
 

Korski

Distilled, 80 proof
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
As might be expected from examining the potential behind two very powerful abilities, discussion regarding both Corrosion and Water Bubble has been fairly divisive. While I do personally enjoy operating with a high power ceiling, I'm finding myself very much on the fence about slating either at this time. If you have any final arguments for or against their inclusion, now would be a good time to make them.
I don't think that after all the posts in this thread it ought to be necessary to protect us from ourselves by not slating the two most pro-concept abilities up for debate. We have barely touched the build of this CAP so far and some arguments in this thread make it sound like our Concept is already fulfilled and our power budget is already spent. I figure they don't take it to mean we spent it on the Poison / Flying typing and Tinted Lens, so where exactly is this pushback coming from? I posted a Framework- and Concept-focused pitch for Corrosion, and from what I can tell no one has tried to argue that pitch was off-base. But there have been detractors to Corrosion who seem to instead simply not trust the CAP process to execute an idea like a dual-Forme Poison/Flying-type @Tinted Lens or Corrosion, which is not a historically unfair concern! Instead of rehashing my own post to try and save Corrosion from being disinvited to the poll, I will try and engage these non-Concept-related concerns and hope my previous post and all the other pro-Corrosion posts in this thread can be convincing enough to make it an option going forward.

From what I've read here on the forum, most anti-Corrosion arguments seem to be solely considerate of the current makeup of the CAP metagame, with not a single comment debating its superior relevance to the Concept compared to the other options. The rule is that the metagame adapts to the CAPs, not the other way around, so if Clefable and Steel-types become less useful in one way out of the dozens of ways in which they are still useful, and if Magnezone, Crucibelle, Pajantom, Krilowatt, Naviathan, Volt Switch, Substitute, Taunt, Heal Bell, and Misty Terrain (which blocks Toxic damage even if grounded opponent is already Poisoned) or whatever else become more valuable as a result of this Project, that is a *good thing*, at least compared to a result where the metagame can simply absorb this Forme with no consequences because we made sure it would be able to, with little to analyze and less to learn. It is not relevant, for example, that 81% of the most recent CAP Tournament teams were underprepared to face a Poison / Flying-type Pokemon with Corrosion, because no such thing existed or needed to be prepared for during that tournament. We have complete control over the build of this CAP, and while I totally get the power creep that defines the tier, this Concept is "Optimized Ability," and we do not owe it to the CAP to beef its stats and coverage at the expense of the explicit Project goals just because we've done it before.

If not to protect the metagame, many of the arguments against Corrosion rely on implied polljumping to make inappropriately-asserted and rarely-explained guesses that 30b would be overpowered generally, either by way of movepool or by stats, neither of which has even gotten a discussion in the process yet. For the movepool, Salazzle already has the [PSN STAB] / Knock Off / Toxic / Taunt @ HDB set that's come up a couple times here in the thread (although it is not even a listed set in its RU analysis), so we have at least a good idea of where to start in terms of how to underpower this strategy. From there, a between-the-lines reading of these arguments must be that 50% recovery moves and whatever stats these users have saved for that discussion are the real balance concerns, which I would argue again is not relevant here when we have yet to take real advantage of either our Framework or Concept and will not really have much of a chance to after this poll. It's great to have an idea in your head about how the CAP will play when all is said and done, but making unsupportable assurances at this stage that an ability should not be selected because Knock Off and Roost would be broken is not supportive of the CAP process and is essentially leaning over the polljumping line just enough to keep your balance. Maybe Corrosion w/ [PSN STAB] / Knock Off / Toxic / Roost @ HDB is too strong, and there will be time to debate that later on, but even if it would be broken, which we couldn't possibly know with any amount of certainty until we have stats, I would rather have Corrosion over Roost any day of the week so that I could have a dignified response to the question "which abilities did you choose for your choose-some-dope-abilities-stuck-on-unviable-Pokemon-and-actually-build-a-viable-Pokemon-around-those-abilities Concept?". Everyone seems to agree Trace should not be slated because it fails this test. Thick Fat and No Guard have also received pushback on this point, fairly, and along the same vein I'd argue Gale Wings cannot be optimized past Gen. 6 Talonflame. Sticky Hold and Ice Scales / Fur Coat also fail this test imo for being overwhelmingly directionless and incapable of carrying a whole Project. Water Bubble is totally out of left field and I would never have thought of it going into this thread and probably still won't vote for it, but at least it is trying to engage the Concept and take advantage of the Framework by providing a distinguishable build and a duality with Tinted Lens, even if it is not as cohesive as Corrosion. And Stamina is probably only the third pro-Concept ability available here, although I don't really see much value in praying for no crits while 30b is parked on the field chipping away at stuff slowly or otherwise hard-walled by pretty common stuff.

When it comes to stats, the beautiful thing about the Framework here is that, due to the practical effect of 30i's held item, we can actually achieve significant savings in attacking stats and overall BST thanks to the automatic damage boost (100 Atk @ Orb = 130 Atk @ HDB or whatever), so the fears surrounding forcing the same stat figures onto an alternatively powerful 30b should actually be less of an issue as it only increases our window of flexibility when it comes to balancing stats between the two Formes. Either way, having juicy, world-eating stats is not the goal here and is not the priority. The worst thing we could do here would be to prioritize imaginary future stats over the Concept, staring us right in the face, here in this thread, and I would have hoped to see less doomsaying as though it is a presumed fact that all CAPs are power creeps so this one must be too.

Others love Corrosion and think it's great, so long as we design an entire Project around it, to which I am a little confused. Are we not talking about doing exactly that, right now? You can't submit a specific Corrosion-based Concept like you can with certain move-based ones, so it'll be kind of a long wait, I guess, for the stars to align like this again to give us a chance to explore Corrosion through the CAP Project. I feel like the way we used to do things here was to to identify the areas where we could fulfill each Concept, prioritize those aspects of the build, and then use the other stages to balance out the end result. We are still in the executing the Concept phase of CAP30, so my argument I guess is that we should do things the normal way?

Sorry I write long posts
 
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