CAP 30 - Part 6 - Concept Assessment 3

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Mx

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CAP 30 So Far

Now that we know Stamina is going to be CAP 30b's ability, it's time to have a more in-depth discussion about its specific role.
  • Name - Optimized Ability
  • Description - This CAP would seek to utilize one or more Abilities which are, at face value, competitively viable, but which are only found on unviable or excessively niche Pokémon, or are paired with objectively better Abilities. The goal is to explore how these Abilities could impact the metagame if they were properly utilized.
  • Justification- Archetype: This CAP seeks to explore one or more underutilized Abilities which could have a meaningful impact on the metagame, but are rarely or never seen because of the Pokémon they are found on, or the other Abilities they have to compete with. With two Forms we can explore the same Ability from two differant angles, or explore two differant Abilities, providing us with greater insight into how these traditionally neglected Abilities could function.
  • Questions To Be Answered-
    • Why are some Abilities seen as better or more viable than others? Is it strictly a function of the Ability itself, or are other factors involved? What are those factors?
    • What new strategies become available with optimized Abilities? Are these strategies competitively viable, or just gimmicks?
    • Are there Abilities that may have been overlooked or disregarded because of poor utilization? Are some worth a second look, even if they lack immediate competitive merit?
  • Explanation -This is, at it's core, a pretty simple Concept. There are various Abilities which, at least to me, seem to sit somewhere between being considered competitively viable and not being competitive at all. Abilities like Steam Engine, Merciless, Heavy/Light Metal, etc., all have a strong competitive impact at face value, but never seem to make it into our discussion during the Ability Stage. While there are probably many factors involved, I think at least some of the issue may simply be a matter of false equivalence; the idea that, since X Ability sucks on Y Pokmon, it must be bad in general. It's understandable. Why would you pick Merciless for Toxapex when it has access to Regenerator, which is an objectively better Ability for a Tank/Wall? At the same time, I think it's important to understand what the real value of some of these Abilities may be, and how they can effect the metagame if they were used "correctly". If given everything they need to succeed, could these Abilities prove to be viable, or are they truly flawed? That is the crux of this Concept.
Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.​
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.​

Once again our Topic Leader Wulfanator will be in charge of this thread. Please pay close attention to his posts and follow his directions.
 

Wulfanator

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With typing and ability finally established for CAP 30b, it is time to figure out what role we want this form to fill in the meta.

As a reminder, the Role Compendium is a helpful tool to reference when discussing potential roles. It provides great meta-relevant examples that can strengthen an argument. Use this to get a better understanding of what type of relevant roles CAP 30b can fill.

There are 4 general categories relevant to the current meta: Utility, Offensive, Defensive, and Weather. The specific roles a mon can fill fall under one of these categories

Hazard Setting
Hazard Control
Clerics
Item Manipulation
Wallbreakers
Offensive Pivots
Choice Users
Priority
Set-Up Sweepers
Walls
Defensive Pivots
Boost Removers
Hail
Rain
Sand
Sun
Trick Room

REMINDER: There are additional roles that are not addressed in the Role Compendium for one reason or another. You can read about addition roles in the Smogon Pokemon Dictionary. Be aware that this is an old article published back during Pokemon Black and White and some information may no longer apply.

Questions:
What type of roles can CAP 30b reasonably fill? Does the pairing of Stamina with Poison/Flying make specific roles a better fit than others?

What roles, if any, risk creating competition with 30i? Should we care about both forms competing with each other?

In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?


After discussion, I will be sending the most agreed upon options to a poll.
 
What type of roles can CAP 30b reasonably fill? Does the pairing of Stamina with Poison/Flying make specific roles a better fit than others?
The most obvious role would be a Wall: if we have access to Roost (or some other recovery move), then Stamina combined with immunity to Toxic could be very useful for stopping physical attackers. Stamina also could be useful to a Set-Up Sweeper, since the defensive boost could help it find time to set up safely.

What roles, if any, risk creating competition with 30i? Should we care about both forms competing with each other?
A Wallbreaker or Choice User could create competition with 30i, especially if the forms are both physical attackers or both special attackers. I think we should try to avoid the forms directly competing with each other, since we could easily end up having one form completely outclass the other.

In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?
It is definitely possible to assign the base stats in such a way that 30b can be a setup sweeper and 30i can't; for example, 30i would have no use for Nasty Plot if it had stats similar to Darmanitan, nor would it have use for Swords Dance if it had stats similar to Alakazam.
 
What type of roles can CAP 30b reasonably fill? Does the pairing of Stamina with Poison/Flying make specific roles a better fit than others?
I feel that the route for us to take with 30b is to take a more defensive role compared to 30i. Roles like Wall and Tank seem to be good options, as they would in my opinion best be able to reliably take advantage of the boosts gathered through Stamina without risking blowing 30i wide open. Defensive Pivot could also theoretically work, but I feel this is a less desirable option since once we start getting boosts, we aren’t really going to be wanting to switch out a whole lot unless we absolutely know we are about to be vaporized.


What roles, if any, risk creating competition with 30i? Should we care about both forms competing with each other?
I feel that being some kind of wallbreaker, stallbreaker, or offensive utility Pokémon will be what really has 30b compete with 30i. That isn’t to say 30b shouldn’t use utility moves we give for 30i, but I get the sense that if we specifically work with offensive utility for 30b the two forms will conflict. I do personally believe we should care about the forms competing with each other, at least to a certain point. With abilities done with, this assessment and stats are the final competitive stages which will help us differentiate the two forms from each other. If they tend to run similar movesets, that is one thing. However, I feel we should not be giving similar roles to that of 30i in order to make sure the two forms are not at least directly competing for team slots with each other.
In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?
Personally, I believe setup should still be off the table. I feel that 30i getting access to setup moves will distract from it using other utility options, and considering how it is a Pokémon with Tinted Lens, I frankly am rather wary of giving it access to setup, as this could easily constrain stats in a way which may negatively impact 30b. Even if we have the two forms have different attack biases that effectively limit setup to only 30b, I do personally have reservations about making one, as I feel that compared to more defensive roles, making a setup sweeper is more of a gamble as to whether or not we will be able to properly optimize Stamina to make a viable Pokémon in the metagame. CAP has made various setup sweepers over the years with mixed success. 30i is going to be using Tinted Lens in a way that perhaps is not what immediately comes to mind, but frankly I feel the simpler options are better for 30b because of this.
 

spoo

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What roles, if any, risk creating competition with 30i? Should we care about both forms competing with each other?
Competition between roles has been a huge talking point for this process so far, and while it's a concern of mine as well, I think we don't need to worry about it to the extent that we currently are. I really don't like the idea of "if the two formes compete which each other and they aren't the exact same viability, we failed somewhere in the project," which, while slight hyperbole, is still representatitve of an attitude I've noticed a few times.

Competition between Pokemon of the same/similar type will always happen to some degree. This is completely fine and natural. It's only a problem when one Pokemon so thoroughly outclasses the other, eg Cinderace v Blaziken. Slowbro and Slowking are another obvious example to point to, but it's not impossible to imagine a metagame in which both are perfectly viable (i'd argue right now is a great example - slowbro is resurging and slowking has been dropping off for months). These Pokemon share the exact same typing, run the exact same moveset (most of the time), and even function in the same role, but are able to differentiate themselves on defensive bias alone. Pajantom and Dragapult are the other good example; both Pokemon are simultaneously viable within the same meta, even if one outclasses the other most of the time. If we end up with a "slowking / slowbro" or "pajantom / dragapult" analagous end product, I think that is fine, and not something we should see as failure. If we look to more examples, there are actually quite a few examples of two strong Pokemon directly competing with each other where one does not immediately outclass the other - eg, koko v zera, pex v fini/gking, gking v slowking, corv v skarm/scizor, etc. Granted, this is often the case because of a difference in movepool or typing, but not always - or rather, it may be a contributing factor, but not the only factor.

However, I feel like it's safe to say we will not be running the exact same moveset as 30i - we will not have an unresisted item-boosted flying-stab we can click with impunity. We will also probably not fall directly into the same role for this reason, even if we are offensively-leaning. Just the fact that we can hold boots is already huge for setting ourselves apart. Flying-type Tinted Lens wallbreaker is an incredibly hard niche to directly outclass. For these reasons, I believe we do not have to work hard to minimize competition - much of the work has already been done. Some degree of competition will probably exist regardless, and as long as both formes are viable on their own, we are totally fine.

What I am getting at is that offensive roles are fine for us to explore. I'm not pushing for an offensive role here, really just saying I don't think we should be afraid of it. It may be the case (and honestly probably will be) that stamina is better suited to a defensive role, so if we end up as a defensive wall/pivot, that's awesome. But if 30b is some kind of offensive tank/fast pivot/setup sweeper/literally whatever else, I don't see that as a huge problem; we will always fit on different team structures than 30i, we will always perform differently, we can always carve out our own distinct niche.

In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?
I think setup is fine to reallow. Poison/flying is a very weak offensive typing, and a bulky setup role could be very cool for 30b. I could even see SD being balanced on 30i as long as we limit our Attack stat and movepool accordingly (not personally suggesting it, just saying it would probably be okay). Not much more to say here; I feel that we should not shy away from setup on the grounds that it encroaches on the offensive territory of 30i and will thus lead to unhealthy competition, and I feel that we shouldn't disallow it on the grounds that it'll be too strong, because our typing ended up on the weaker side. We can also definitely design the two formes such that one would never want to use the other's setup option. At worst, we can reallow setup as a whole and then disallow specific options on a case-by-case basis if people believe certain things to be too strong or distracting.
 

Zetalz

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What type of roles can CAP 30b reasonably fill? Does the pairing of Stamina with Poison/Flying make specific roles a better fit than others?
Wall, Tank & Set-Up Sweeper stand out as obvious roles given 30b's kit at the moment. Wall is very straightforward and the safest option to go for imo, but there is something to be said for shaping 30b into a viable Tank might prove more interesting given it's relative absence in the meta over the year. The Set-Up Sweeper approach I think is the most obviously synergistic choice with Stamina which I'll talk about more in the last question.
What roles, if any, risk creating competition with 30i? Should we care about both forms competing with each other?
Was going to respond to this but then spoo dropped that handsome bombshell of a post that said everything I ever could've wanted to but far more eloquently <3
In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?
Allowing set-up is perfectly fine at this stage imo. There are definitely ways we can prevent 30b having competition with 30i, and likewise a slew of ways to prevent 30i from using 30b's potential set-up options if desired, such as shifted offensive biases or more limited/niche set-up moves. As I stated previously I think Set-Up Sweeper is a good route to explore with Stamina and I would hate it to see it denied out of overly exaggerated fears we would inherently compete too heavily with 30i.
 
What type of roles can CAP 30b reasonably fill? Does the pairing of Stamina with Poison/Flying make specific roles a better fit than others?
Poison Flying is a pretty solid defensive typing and Stamina is an ability that plays into this defensive approach.
Aside from boosting, which is inherently tied to Stamina as ability but could be expanded on with boosting moves, I think a defensive role fits a lot better with what 30b provides. Both a defensive pivot and straight up wall are possible ways here imo, although the latter benefits more from defensive boosts, as the former will often pivot out and lose them.
Both of these archetypes can branch into utility roles as well and I think 30b will be able to perform some sort of utility role fairly well.

What roles, if any, risk creating competition with 30i? Should we care about both forms competing with each other?
I think the only role that might veer into 30i territory is that of a wallbreaker. But even there the overlap should not be too big as tinted Lens provides such a distinct niche, that 30b will most certainly play entirely different.
The issue here would probably be, that we would have to compensate a lot with coverage and stats for 30b to not be entirely outclassed by its sibling.
I think the two forms competing isn’t an issue itself, but I think it’d be difficult in this scenario, where tinted lens pretty clearly is targeted at being a wallbreaker, whereas stamina provides very little in that direction, so I think it’s for the best to avoid that role.
In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?
I think that the roles can be distinct enough that it will work out if we give 30b boosting and given, that stamina already provides possible boosts for 30b, the role of a boosting sweeper is definitely relevant for this discussion.
The shared elements can easily be circumvented by choosing different attacking biases or creating the stats in a way, that only makes 30b a viable booster.

Also Tbh given our typing I’m not opposed to opening up the possibility of boosting again for both forms, but that is probably a seperate discussion.
 
Wulfanator said:
What type of roles can CAP 30b reasonably fill? Does the pairing of Stamina with Poison/Flying make specific roles a better fit than others?
Amongst "general defensive utility" abilities, Stamina stands out because it directly incentivizes staying on the field as long as possible. Our Poison typing is also fantastic for that-- we are immune to Toxic, a huge thing preventing most defensive (I am not saying 30b should be defensive, in fact I'm personally inclined to going offensive) Pokemon from staying out and doing things they like for as long as they'd want. Because of how Stamina works with this, 30b should not be a pivot. Wanting to pivot means we won't take advantage of Stamina boosts over a long time, and if we tank a hit then U-Turn/VS out, Stamina did literally nothing for us! It only takes effect after we get hit and then we've already left the field.

Considering this, I think set-up, wall, and tank are all roles that naturally fit 30b.

Set-up Pokemon like to stay in as long as possible, spending time boosting, recovering (if they can) if they got attacked while boosting, then staying in and punching things as long as possible. Stamina makes revenge killing and forcing us out a lot harder from the physical side. It also means that getting attacked while setting up helps us, if we're able to recover off the damage. Stamina's effect of only being useful after getting hit reminds me some of the idea behind Chromera (which I lurked throughout)-- as a set-up mon, we tank an attack, then our ability + accumulated boosts makes it easier to sponge future hits, and given the right tools, we could maybe even do this better than Chromera (though we'll probably have significantly worse stats) because we're immune to Toxic. I don't want to make "Chromera but worse stats and immune to Toxic", so if we are considering set-up, I think we should ask ourselves how we will distinguish ourselves from Chromera. The Chromera-like route seems like the most intuitive way to make a set-up sweeper that most naturally synergizes with Stamina, but I'm sure it's not the only one-- could Stamina still work on a more fragile set-up mon, that has more trouble tanking that initial hit? (I don't know very much at all about the CAP metagame, so please correct me if I'm misunderstanding how Chromera plays in real life here or if my comparison doesn't make sense.)

Wall and tank are both self-explanatory. Stamina has awesome general defensive utility and we'd love that as either one of these. Being a wall, we have more longevity and can do whatever utility things or dish out chip damage as we sit there absorbing hits. Should we go the tank route, a Body Press attacker, maybe even combined with other set-up, seems like the most appealing route, but we certainly don't have to do that.

Personally, I'm most in favor of 30b being a tank, and I'm very wary of set-up since, depending on how we go about this, it could end up being very strong. We'll have to be careful if we want 30b to be a set-up mon, but using more niche set-up moves, for example Hone Claws, would mean we can totally balance this.

Wulfanator said:
What roles, if any, risk creating competition with 30i? Should we care about both forms competing with each other?
Nothing to add here! I really appreciate and agree with spoo's post.

Wulfanator said:
In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?
We can absolutely consider set-up, and it seems like a really fun and strong route. Like I said under the first question, staying in and accumulating tons of boosts gradually over time fits Stamina like a glove. To prevent pushing 30i over the edge, we have no restrictions on stats other than same BST, so just make 30b a special booster and 30i physical with crap Sp Atk, or vice versa.
 

Estronic

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Going to go a little off the grid for these questions to prevent repeating anything from the posts above.

What type of roles can CAP 30b reasonably fill? Does the pairing of Stamina with Poison/Flying make specific roles a better fit than others?
Using Mudsdale as somewhat of a model, CAP30b could work very well as a defensive wall, though I could potentially see it being an unconventional mixed wall as well. For example, a specially bias wall that gets stronger physically defensively each time the opponent makes a less-than-optimal play can introduce a lot of depth to the metagame around it and how one will create a gameplan. There's obviously a lot of other things CAP30b could potentially do as well, but it's important to note that for potentially all of its possible movesets, Body Press being an essential for all of them should be something we should think about. Most notably, it gives CAP30b a nice option to Steel-types that would otherwise check it, but it's also important to note that how effective that option is dependent on the user of said Steel-types. Regardless of that, though, for all of the roles CAP30b could be able to perform thanks to Stamina, Body Press will most likely come into play for all of them (if we choose to give it the move, that is).

What roles, if any, risk creating competition with 30i? Should we care about both forms competing with each other?
Just based off of the difference between each forme's abilities, I don't think there will be any serious competition between between because I really don't see them performing similar roles. Tinted Lens is such a strong ability offensive-wise, and with the combination of the extra STAB damage from its item, CAP30i is always going to be running some offensive role for its team. For CAP30b, while it could be possible for it to run offensive sets as well, they would most likely function differently enough for it to hold a completely different niche CAP30i would otherwise hold. Additionally, with CAP30b's defensive-oriented ability, it's entire possible that both formes would straight up just have no overlapping roles. Therefore, when it comes down to teambuilding, one of them will be chosen over the other because that one can perform a role the other simply can't, rather than being chosen because while both formes can perform the role, the one chosen can perform it better.

In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?
I don't particularly have a solid opinion on this. Just to provide a suggestion, though, if we do want to want to make CAP30b be able to perform some kind of sweeper role but prevent CAP30i, from doing the same, we would most likely need to utilize Stamina and potential access to Body Press alongside setup moves like Agility. Again, my opinion on this isn't really to solid, but I at least wanted to provide something that potentially could be discussed.

Sorry if anything seems sloppy, pretty lazy today and my stomach is completely empty at the moment.
 
Given the outcome of the Ability stage, I am not nearly as worried about the CAP30 formes competing with one another. Given the typing and ability of 30b, it is safe to say that the forme is capable of punishing U-Turn.

I am not sure how I feel about trying to turn this Pokemon into a potential sweeper using Stamina. Body Press does not benefit from STAB, and set-up is entirely dependent on your opponent either making a really bad mistake, or being in a place where they have few options (mostly in the lategame). That sort of role is extremely gimmicky. Any set-up role would also have to take 30i into consideration, because the formes share their movepools. With Tinted Lens, it is incredibly easy for set-up sweepers to secure a win-condition if they have access to offensive boosts. It is for this reason that CAP30b would be better suited as a Wall, capable of making the most out of CAP30i's utility options within a context that is considerably different from 30i's use.

To give you an idea of what I mean:

+1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 186-219 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 147-174 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 204-242 (51.1 - 60.6%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 266-314 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 246-292 (64.2 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 260-306 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 204-240 (78.1 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 176-208 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

90 base attack really isn't a lot, but it becomes a lot after a boost and its STAB hits everything neutrally.
 
I don't really have much to add that hasn't already been said.

Defensive roles have an obvious synergy with our typing and ability (not to mention the fact that 30b can wear boots). The exception to this is defensive pivot, which loses it's defense boost when it switches out. The three roles which seem most relevant are wall, tank and bulky set-up sweeper (although we just did a poison-type bulky sweeper so I understand if people don't want to retread that role). Defensive mons are often the most reliable at filling certain utility roles too, thanks to their longevity (especially when we'll be adding utility to the movepool for 30i's sake). Offensive roles are certainly viable too, although without Tinted Lens and the custom item our offensive STAB is much less impressive.

While we don't want the two forms to overlap too much, I think the risk of this occuring is pretty low. Even if 30b also got the wallbreaker role, it would likely take a very different approach to wallbreaking, as the differences in ability and item are pretty substantial.

I think that a bulky set-up sweeper is fairly obvious route for 30b, as it's stamina boosts can grant it free turns to set up and make it more difficult to revenge kill. The fact that 30b is also immune to toxic is nice for this too. Giving 30b boosting moves will make things more complicated however, as boo836 mentions even a mediocre attack stat becomes scary on 30i after a boost. This means we'd probably want to make a strongly defined physical/special offensive split between the two forms if we go the boosting route.

Edit: one other obvious synergy between defensive roles and Stamina is the ability to use Body Press effectively. Fighting+flying offers good coverage that a tank for example could use quite well, as well a potentially providing physical coverage to an otherwise specially oriented tank.
 
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In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?
As others have mentioned, we can reintroduce setup sweeper roles for 30b as long as 30i cannot abuse them. This not only includes Calm Mind/Nasty Plot along with 30i with low Special Attack and Swords Dance/Bulk Up along with 30i with low Attack, but also Body Press and maybe Iron Defense/Acid Armor along with 30i with low Defense or only Attack-boosting moves and Stored Power (note that 30b can also use Defense boosts to pump Stored Power, but 30i cannot in this case).

In practice, we may need offensive stats as lopsided as Keldeo's in order for 30i to not bother with the boosting move that boosts its weaker offensive stat (note that Keldeo has access to Swords Dance and Aqua Jet and even has Justified and still doesn't go physical). Speed-boosting moves may need to be avoided no matter what, as 30i becoming an extremely fast cleaner may be something we want to avoid. (Speed-boosting has been so powerful at times that Latios even used Dragon Dance in at least one previous generation despite not taking advantage of the attack boost and only getting 1 speed boost stage.)
 
NB: i'm, aware that this post discusses moves, but I'm using this as the basis for why certain roles could be troublesome. This is in no way an attempt to poll jump, suggest that moves be banned/assumed present. If you'd like me reframe some points with less specificity, I'd be happy to do so, but I've kept as is for clarity.

One thing that we should watch out for when statting and making movepools is Assault Vest usage. Stamina triggers on every hit, Phys or Special, and Double Special Defense and no 4* weakness can snowball. Now, we dont get healing this way, even Grassy Terrain doesnt help, so its not a problem, but suggestions for a Pokemon as poor as Malaconda to get Stamina (during the updates) were pretty much instantly dismissed because of this.

There are two main moves that concern me slightly: Body Press, and Drain Punch. Body Press makes perfect sense, from Defense Stacking optic to be able to utilise that offensively, while Drain Punch provides HP Drain and is a way for AV CAP30 to get sustain.

If this is combined with Knock Off, allowing it to SE Ghosts, this puts quite a strong combination of an opponent switching in Steel to SE +X Body Press/giving HP back to CAP30, or switching Ghost in to take advantage of predicted Fighting, only to get zapped by a likely boosted Knock Off.

Because all of these are Physical Moves, if I am being very honest, i think that this encourages aiming more for a Physical Wall and being specially offensive instead on 30b. Knock off has its own utility, as does Drain Punch, and Body Press can allow a mixed/switch offensive set after some set up, so they arent useless just because they're not 120+ Att. There is no necessity for CAP30 to have all 3 moves (it's not a fighting type, after all), but I'm cautious that an overly physical offensive+special defenses can result in situation similar to Smokomodo not getting Flame Charge.

The other reason I quite like Stamina being Specially Offensive is due to Burn. We're already immune to Toxic, so the next way of triggering this is for trying to Burn: whether through Scaldfishing, or walking into wisps. As flying, there's no terrain to take advantage of, so Burn, if CAP30 is physical is on the dangerous side.

What type of roles can CAP 30b reasonably fill? Does the pairing of Stamina with Poison/Flying make specific roles a better fit than others?
Status absorber works rather well. It can already take Poison, and chip damage can be healed off potentially with access to Roost, even if it's Paralyzed, unless it's against a pokemon who can 2HKO it (hence concerns on Stamina+AV, where short of multi-parahax it could become a snowballed threat).

Perhaps the nearest pokemon who exists that I think provides a similar role is Milotic: it has Heal, Toxic, Status inflicting Damage moves, and then utility: whether with Refresh, Flip Turn, Haze, or just coverage.

What roles, if any, risk creating competition with 30i? Should we care about both forms competing with each other?
I slightly touched on this before I think: Tinted Lens scales better the more damage you do: Brave Bird and Gunk Shot are both physical. The higher 30b's attack the less 'unique' Tinted Lens will be, and risks 30i either needing stratospheric ATT to differentiate itself, or risk being left as too 1 dimensional and take up a valuable teamslot.

Giratina was the inspiration behind the concept, which thanks to Griseous Orb, went from a comparatively sluggish wall into Bulky Offense. Yes, we absolutely should care about either form stealing from each other. That inspiration for a roll change should be followed through.

They have the same moveset, same typing, so outside of ability and stats, if either mon performs the same primary task, we end up with a situation where only the best forme will be taken.

In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?
I slightly disagree with unhealthy, but agree that in order to highlight Tinted Lens, by relying on set-up it kinda negates the point of having that immediacy of power that Tinted Lens provides.
NVE +50%
NVE, Tinted Lens = 100% (+100% damage from ability)
Compared to:
NVE, +2 = 150%
NVE, Tinted Lens, +2 = +200% (+33% damage from ability)
Following on from question 2, should 30b have a similar physical offense, having the need for boosting moves to Wall Break on Tinted Lens means that Stamina using CAP30 can also Wall Break, except be tankier and have item flexibility
As for Speed Boosting, I genuinely think this can leave tbings a little schizophrenic and adding needless complications for an opponent: Citing Genesect pre-ban as overly centralizing due to its unhealthiness caused by multiple forms needing specific answers, CAP30 with Speed Boosting, whether it comes with additional riders should be treated VERY carefully: Speed Boosting with HP Regen (either directly through moves or Leftovers Stalling) AND stamina can be a scary prospect.
 

Voltage

OTTN5
is a Pre-Contributor
What type of roles can CAP 30b reasonably fill? Does the pairing of Stamina with Poison/Flying make specific roles a better fit than others?

Much like others who have posted in this thread, 30b can easily fit into the role of either a full-on Wall or a Tank. Personally, I think a Pokemon with an immunity to Toxic and means of reliably getting bulkier of the course of a match is hugely more defensive, and so naturally playing this completely different than Tinted Lens to me implies a more passive means of defense. Of course this has been discussed at length in the previous thread and by users in this thread. With proper play, it wouldn't be hard to switch 30b on a resisted U-turn to get an immediate +1 to its Defense which would then prevent opponents from getting the proper amounts of damage necessary to OHKO or 2HKO or whatever is necessary. This of course assumes that 30b will get some form of recovery and will be bulky enough to live special hits as well without a SpDef boost.

What roles, if any, risk creating competition with 30i? Should we care about both forms competing with each other?


Truthfully, given the incredibly different abilities, I don't really see any major opportunities for 30i to overshadow 30b or 30b to overshadow 30i. This is, of course, assuming that the roles that we choose for 30b skew defensively. I really don't like the idea of creating 30b to have much serious offensive presence, and would much prefer we preserve the defensive usefulness of Stamina on 30b. It's pretty simple in my mind, Tinted Lens essentially only has offensive presence, and it's only through either Body Press or Stored Power / Power Trip that Stamina gives us anything other than defensive presence. Seems pretty simple to me.

In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?


It would be very risky for 30b to get some kind of boosting capabilities without having to have them constantly checked against 30i. As a reuslt, I'm not really a fan of giving 30b active means of boosting its offensive stats, specifically through moves like Calm Mind or Bulk up. However, I think through moves like Cosmic Power or Iron Defense are more manageable since unless we're given access to moves like Stored Power or Power Trip, we don't have to worry about these moves giving 30i added offensive presence.

As for speed boosting, I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other. The primary concern I have is with Agility, but even then I think it is very rare and would likely waste a moveslot on 30b, but provide some potential sets on 30i. Of course, this is all speculation and I'm going to definitely be reading more posts about potentially boosting Speed here. Leaning on "don't give speed boosting options" but I'm keeping an open mind.
 
Generally agree with the Wall and Tank options, won't go into too much detail past what is shared here. I want to discuss Hazard Clearing and Cleric as roles as well, which are defined separately in definition but certainly overlap with Wall and Tank on plenty of viable mons, Corviknight, Zapdos and Cyclohm spring to mind, I've been seeing more Cleric Cyclohm. It's tricky to talk utility roles without going into specific moves but I'll do my best.

As for speed boosting, I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other. The primary concern I have is with Agility, but even then I think it is very rare and would likely waste a moveslot on 30b, but provide some potential sets on 30i. Of course, this is all speculation and I'm going to definitely be reading more posts about potentially boosting Speed here. Leaning on "don't give speed boosting options" but I'm keeping an open mind.
So, tricky to get around this one without chatting moves, but I think 30b is well positioned to be a Hazard Clearer, which means we need to consider Defog and Rapid Spin as options. Personally, I don't think assigning Hazard Clearer to the mon means we will definitely have Rapid Spin, but I think it could be an acceptable choice on 30b and 30i. A +1 speed boost is fairly substantial, but it fits both the Utility Wallbreaker and Wall/Tank roles in equal measure without slipping into set-up territory for 30i.

Hazard Clearer is a good utility assignment CAP 30 because both a Wall/Tank and the Utility Breaker can fulfill it, but it suits 30b better as we are attracted to taking HDB. I imagine this is similar to Defog Zapdos. Our great defensive typing allows for a lot of good switch-ins to hazard setters like Clefable or Landorus (minus stone edge variants). Plus even if we lose HDB to a Knock, we've gained a Stamina boost and can clear hazards in one go.

Cleric is also interesting as we are already Toxic immune. This would really let us shut down Toxic users, even if they hit another target. Burn and Paralysis are also interesting, as 30i doesn't want either option so being able to clear them benefits the Utility Breaker as well.
 
What type of roles can CAP 30b reasonably fill? Does the pairing of Stamina with Poison/Flying make specific roles a better fit than others?
Wall, Tank, and Defensive Pivot all make sense here.
  • For the Wall, Stamina's defense boosts give us a signifcant edge in fending off Physical Attackers. Attacks which don't do enough to KO after the +1 are going to be easier to take over time, keeping us relatively healthier and forcing the opponent out to get around our increased Defense stat.
  • For the Tank, Stamina works similarly, except we're more capable of dishinng out serious damage. Our Stamina ability can help in forcing in certain threats which look to bypass our Defense boosts, along with making it easier to stay in and fire off an Attack since we're harder to KO.
  • The Pivot gets the least of these from Stamina, but it's still good: once again our increased Defense can be used to force certain mons in or out, or incentive certain moves we can use bring another Pokemon in safely. The main difference is that a pivot generally wants to stay in for a few turns at max before leaving, which doesn't get the best synergy with an Ability that encourages you to stay in for maximum effect: I don't see Pivot as entirely out of the question, however, as we still can benefit from Stamina.
Our goal with Stamina should be to use our Defense boost to either stay in as long as possible or use it to get the opponent to switch as soon as possible, and take advantage of those situations to the maximum we can. "Optimally" we could manage to do both, though whether we want to is a different question.

What roles, if any, risk creating competition with 30i? Should we care about both forms competing with each other?
Stamina and Tinted Lens are pretty distinct for what they give to a Pokemon. We can't remove competition entirely as the forms are mutually exclusive and have obvious similarities, but if our roles are different then the only issues which arise are we didn't make one good enough to be worth using, or made the other too good to not be worth using, which can be mitigated by designing both forms well.

In the previous Role Discussion, we agreed that setup sweeper was an unhealthy option to pursue for 30i. Are we able to reintroduce this role for 30b or, given the shared elements of both forms, is this unavailable to us?
I will start off by saying this is possible and should be considered, and I say this because the following sounds like I'm saying otherwise.

Giving setup moves to 30b and indirectly giving them to 30i causes us to invalidate an important restriction we had placed on the latter. Generally speaking, this is the exact opposite of what we want to be doing. Is there any way to give one form setup that the other can't make use of? We have two sides of the attacking spectrum in Physical and Special, so we could give ourselves only setup moves of one side and have 30i go the opposite way. The problem, however, is that deciding our setup move(s) for the one side would prevent 30b from using that side of the spectrum, as it otherwise gets to use setup. Restricting 30i to one side of the spectrum can deny it of pro-concept moves it would otherwise be able to use. In turn, deciding if 30i is Physical or Special first can also deny 30b setup options that might be perfect for it. No matter which way we go, someone gets shorthanded.

Despite this, I think we can still explore setup on 30b, but it will take a fair bit of discussion. We'd need to come to a consensus on what bias our forms lean towards simultaneously. If it ends up that one form is better Physical and the other is better Special, we're good! If one form is better Physical and the other has no preference, we're good as well assuming our setup isn't Physical: the only instance where we run into a problem is when both forms have the same bias.

So if we wanted to discuss setup as an option, I believe it's important that we figure out whether being Physical or Special is the best way forward for both of our forms, and only then give setup to 30b if it doesn't affect 30i. If we aren't looking into a setup sweeper role going forward, then we can skip all that and move on. This is a bit awkward as we'd have to decide that we want to explore setup, and then go through a phase that can result in us not using setup anyhow, but I think it's worth doing.
 
Our goal with Stamina should be to use our Defense boost to either stay in as long as possible or use it to get the opponent to switch as soon as possible, and take advantage of those situations to the maximum we can. "Optimally" we could manage to do both, though whether we want to is a different question.
While others already have figured out what roles fit 30b, I think This is the clearest description of what 30b wants to do with the aid of stamina.
Being able to stay in for several turns while forcing chip onto the opponent, crippling mons with status and aiding its team with utility Options or setting up itself as a consequence of the stamina boost is the most straightforward way of taking advantage of stamina.
At the same time Stamina has the ability for 30b to come in and force an immediate answer, lest it spiraling out of control fairly quickly. Thus, This ability naturally plays into the role of a defensive pivot, that gains momentum through pivot moves or free space to perform utility, through forcing switches but never stays in for long itself. While switching out obviously removes the accumulated boosts, the threat of these boosts aids in forcing reactive play from the opponent similarly to intimidate.
 

Wulfanator

Clefable's wish came true!
is a Pre-Contributor
It has been 48 hours since thread opened, and we have had some solid discussion. It is blatantly obvious that there is near universal support for Wall and Tank, and both will be making an appearance in the poll. Other options like Set-Up Sweeper and Defensive Pivot have been split.

In the case of Set-Up Sweeper, some users have voiced issues with needing to constantly check against 30i to avoid accidentally creating an unhealthy mon. This pertains solely to offensive boosting moves. Those in favor of reintroducing boosting have suggested that we design each form around different offensive biases to mitigate the problem.

Stat bias is typically influenced by the Threats discussion and established in the Stats stage. If we want to pursue Set-Up Sweeper, should we select our offensive biases in this discussion?

In the case of Defensive Pivot, the main criticism is that it actively works against the mechanics of Stamina. These users want 30b to actively maintain the boosts and only switch out when it is necessary. In the Role Compendium, we see that mons can fill multiple roles. There are even mons that fill the role of Wall and Defensive Pivot simultaneously. This is why I used the term “primary function” in CA2. It was to distinguish the role we wanted to actively design for from additional roles our mon could fill.

Switching is going to happen regardless of what role we pick. Should we actively design with Defensive Pivot in mind, or should we select a different role while leaving room for Defensive Pivot as an additional role?


I will give the discussion another 48 hours to brainstorm additional roles as well as comment on the roles discussed thus far. In 24 hours, I will be back with the options I am thinking of sending to the poll as well as some clarification as to what these roles would entail.
 

Estronic

literally me in real life
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Stat bias is typically influenced by the Threats discussion and established in the Stats stage. If we want to pursue Set-Up Sweeper, should we select our offensive biases in this discussion?
I feel like we would need to establish if it is possible and plausible for us to make CAP30b a setup sweeper without making CAP30i an effective user as it as well (that is assuming that we still don't want CAP30i to have a setup role, though). There have been a couple of niche options that were thrown around in this thread already, all of which utilizing Stamina well and fitting into the initial concept of optimizing the ability. In this case, the most notable options are utilizing the Stamina boosts to have a more powerful Body Press or giving it access to defensive setup moves like Cosmic Power for it to utilize Stored Power or Power Trip well. The issue with this, though, is that we don't know if giving it access to these moves would cause CAP30i, which would have access to those moves as well, to be a formidable user of such moves too. We definitely want to make sure that both formes can perform their own individual roles without much of an overlap; otherwise, one will definitely be used over the other for certain roles, which is a risk that comes with wanting CAP30b to be able to perform a setup role while preventing CAP30i from doing the same.

Switching is going to happen regardless of what role we pick. Should we actively design with Defensive Pivot in mind, or should we select a different role while leaving room for Defensive Pivot as an additional role?
If we want to focus on CAP30b being able to utilize Stamina to a satisfaction, I feel like having access to a pivoting option should be up for consideration but shouldn't be the current priority. If anything, it should be a lesser optimal option over something else. This is kind of polljumping a little bit, but if we do want CAP30b to be a defensive pivot, Parting Shot would be the best option thanks to its nice synergy with Stamina. As its Defense rises, CAP30b would be able to pivot out the same turn a check or counter comes in and cripple it for whatever comes in after. I can definitely see this getting out of hand, though, so I would be cautious with this route. Going with a normal pivoting move like U-turn or Volt Switch could be plausible as well, but, as Wulfanator mentioned, it's counterproductive with how we want CAP30b to utilize Stamina. It's a very interesting and complicated dilemma, but in my opinion, we should shouldn't put it at the certain of attention and make sure CAP30b has more standard options that it would be able to utilize in more relevant scenarios over a pivoting option.

Edit: I misunderstood the initial question, my bad. We obviously don't need a pivoting move to be a defensive pivot, but if we do want it to perform that role well, it should be a topic of discussion whether or not it should have access to one.
 
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Switching is going to happen regardless of what role we pick. Should we actively design with Defensive Pivot in mind, or should we select a different role while leaving room for Defensive Pivot as an additional role?
My main worry is actually that any pivoting moves we give CAP 30b will also automatically be given to 30i, thus risking giving the Offensive Pivot role to 30i even more strongly than giving set-up moves to 30b risks giving 30i the Set-up Sweeper role. The impression I got from 30i's role-determining stage is that we do not want 30i to be an Offensive Pivot at all. Even if the pivot move uses a nonexistent offensive stat that 30i may have, it will see play - dry Baton Pass saw play in Sylveon in generations where Baton Pass is not banned from OU/UU.

As a result, I believe we should select a non-pivot role while leaving room for Defensive Pivot as an additional role. Any Defensive Pivot role with no pivot moves will probably need to be organically grown from stats and other movepool options (likely threatening ones so opponents start giving opportunities for 30b to pivot), so it will be harder to actively design. In addition, Stamina boosts are lost upon switching out, which makes a Defensive Pivot role not fit a Stamina mon on first blush. (However, any mon that does not want to make 30b nigh-unbreakable on the Def side but has to hit it with physical attacks to make progress is probably pivoting or switching out, thus making a Stamina mon fit the Defensive Pivot role deceptively well.)
 
The impression I got from 30i's role-determining stage is that we do not want 30i to be an Offensive Pivot at all.
On rereading the Concept Assessment 2 thread, I don't really get that impression. The consensus seems to be that, while 30i could accomplish the role of offensive pivot, a pivot would very much prefer to have Heavy Duty Boots instead of the orb it is stuck with, which is why the role did not perform well in the polls. However, there does not seem to be a sentiment that 30i should never be a pivot of any kind, and I can only find an isolated statement that is specifically focused on damaging pivot moves and not so much the role of a pivot altogether, and given that the Pokemon has been handed a different role, there are a number of avenues for pivoting moves that, even with the Tinted Lens boost, would likely not become obnoxious enough to reach the levels feared in this post. This is different from the stronger sentiment that people had around focusing 30i on being a setup sweeper, where there were more adamant calls to not allow that role.

I didn't post earlier because my sentiment mostly agrees with the consensus: I think fitting roles include Wall, Tank, Utility, Defensive Pivot, and Set-up Sweeper, and I am OK with reintroducing setup to CAP 30 as a whole, especially in the light of the offensively questionable Poison/Flying type we now have.

As for the current questions:

Stat bias is typically influenced by the Threats discussion and established in the Stats stage. If we want to pursue Set-Up Sweeper, should we select our offensive biases in this discussion?
I think we could actually just transition into Defining Moves and implicitly determine bias that way, like we did for Chromera, where the defining boosting move we picked served as the centerpiece for our bias, then develop a discussion of routes from there. If there are no fears regarding polljumping, then I am fine with starting on this topic in this discussion as well. I think Estronic raises an interesting point that we need to be able to judge how well 30i can use the setup strategy assigned to 30b and whether Tinted Lens pushes said strategy over the edge, even if the boosting is defensively oriented. I will say that I am less worried about 30i using a setup set effectively at all, as long as that set does not become obnoxious in the metagame or heavily overshadow the utility wallbreaker role we intend for it to fulfill.

Switching is going to happen regardless of what role we pick. Should we actively design with Defensive Pivot in mind, or should we select a different role while leaving room for Defensive Pivot as an additional role?
I'm not sure if I completely understand this question, but if Defensive Pivot is slated and wins the polls, then we should actively design for it, as it's the role we've decided to focus on. If we select a different role, then I don't see anything wrong with either shutting it out entirely or leaving room for it.
 

dex

As far as I know, I'm immortal
is a Pre-Contributor
I don't think that setup is a particularly great option for CAP30b to angle towards, but not because of its implications for 30i. Setup is totally balanceable between the two forms, even SD and NP can be easily worked around via stats and movepool. However, I do not think that setup is a particularly good idea because of the mons that already inhabit the bulky setup role in the current metagame. This is the same issue that Chromera has run into, that mons like Clefable, Tapu Fini, and Scizor are all incredibly good at their job already. Even though Stamina is a fairly strong ability, directly competing with these mons makes the process quite difficult, and I think that, for the time being at least, we should attempt to focus on the Wall and Tank roles.

I'd like to make an additional note about the "defensive pivot" role. You do not need to have a pivot move to be considered a defensive pivot. Arghonaut and Astrolotl are some of the best pivots in the current metagame despite not having access to pivoting. If we are to make an effective wall, it will essentially behave like a pivot. Furthermore, I don't think that pivoting moves are necessarily that bad of an option. Plenty of wallbreakers, Dragapult and Kerfluffle, for instance, have access to a pivoting move. I don't think it would be a bad idea to discuss U-turn and the like, as it doesn't even go against CAP30i's role.
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
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Switching is going to happen regardless of what role we pick. Should we actively design with Defensive Pivot in mind, or should we select a different role while leaving room for Defensive Pivot as an additional role?

I am going to be a stick in the mud here, but I think by virtue of typing and Stamina we have already slotted 30b into the defensive pivoting role. The typing is really good at pivoting into standard Lando-T, Jumbao, Clefable, etc sets (this is true for 30i as well.) Based on the direction this discussion is going, we are going to be somewhat bulky to utilize Stamina. This Pokemon is most likely going to be utilized as a defensive pivot regardless if we assign it that role or not unless we purposely try to avoid it, which sounds like a pitfall to me. Imo the question at hand is do we want to give it U-turn style moves to give the mon more momentum potential.
 
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Switching is going to happen regardless of what role we pick. Should we actively design with Defensive Pivot in mind, or should we select a different role while leaving room for Defensive Pivot as an additional role?

I am going to be a stick in the mud here, but I think by virtue of typing and Stamina we have already slotted 30b into the defensive pivoting role. The typing is really good at pivoting into standard Lando-T, Jumbao, Clefable, etc sets (this is true for 30i as well.) Based on the direction this discussion is going, we are going to be somewhat bulky to utilize Stamina. This Pokemon is most likely going to be utilized as a defensive pivot regardless of we assign it that role or not unless we purposely try to avoid it, which sounds like a pitfall to me. Imo the question at hand is do we want to give it U-turn style moves to give the mon more momentum potential.
I personally don’t feel you’re necessarily wrong, but I personally never thought defensive pivot was something to actively avoid as opposed to simply not building around it. I believe that since we are likely to fulfill a defensive pivot role regardless of what we do that we would be better off picking a role like Tank to both at least try to take advantage of staying in and accumulating boosts to more deeply explore Stamina and to generally expand discussion past the likes of pivoting moves.
 
I don't really understand why Defensive Pivot is being considered. While pivoting is something that Cap 30 will naturally do, like many other Pokemon including Mudsdale, it being our main role feels anti-ability, and by extension anti-concept. Stamina is a slow ability that requires us to be in the game long enough to expect 2 hits to even give any value, and that value increases the longer its in. A Wall or Tank is a much cleaner way to approach this, as each wants to take multiple hits throughout the match.
 
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