CAP 30 - Part 8 - Defining Moves

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Tadasuke

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CAP 30 So Far

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In this stage, we will develop sets of moves that will meaningfully affect future stages of the process for this CAP. These moves will need to be addressed in the stat limits and stat submission stages in order to contextualize submitted spreads. For example, a stat submission that elects to choose stronger Defining Moves will be put under heavier scrutiny than those without them. The chosen Defining Moves should be considered essential to the CAP's concept and/or chosen role. Defining Moves does not necessarily exclude moves from consideration in the Movesets Discussion, so not all of the CAP's viable moves need to be decided in this stage. The Movepool SL will organize these moves into the following lists:
  1. Required: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for this move, these moves, or a choice of moves.
  2. Optional: Stat spreads (or other future stages) can elect to use this move, these moves, or a choice of moves.
Moves that can be chosen as Defining Moves should be in the following categories:
  • Boosting Moves
  • Recovery Moves
  • Extraordinary STAB Moves (only moves with strong ability interactions, moves with strong secondary effects, and high-Base Power moves that might be relevant for stat calculations)
  • Extraordinary Coverage Moves (only moves with strong ability interactions and moves that directly affect our concept)
  • Strong Priority Moves
  • Strong Utility Moves (self-switching moves, hazard setting/removing moves, status-inflicting moves, etc.)
The TLT has the final say over which moves fall into which category, if they belong to one at all. Controversial moves or placements in lists can be sent to poll if the Movepool SL deems it necessary.

Please do not polljump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggest specific abilities.
 
Welcome to CAP's second ever Defining Moves stage. We have some more categories this time around, which you can see in the OP. Keep in mind that we will not be determining stat bias until, well, the stat limits and stat submission stages, so while you are free to argue that certain STAB moves fit better than other moves, I will ask that you evaluate both sides of the physical/special spectrum and provide options for each side, unless one side's options are very anticoncept.

For my part, I will structure the required and optional lists to give stat submitters options while avoiding weird implications down the line. Here is an example:

Required: at least one of (Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick / Overheat / Fire Blast), at least one of (Psychic / Psychic Fangs), Agility
Optional: Psyshock, Leech Seed, Defog, First Impression, at least one of (Hydro Pump / Surf / Liquidation)

In this case, you would be expected to factor in at least one of Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick / Overheat / Fire Blast in your stat submission, while you have the option of including at least one of Hydro Pump / Surf / Liquidation.


We'll be starting by looking at Recovery and Extraordinary STAB moves. Between 30i being forced to take Stealth Rock damage due to being locked out of Heavy-Duty Boots, and 30b having been given the primary role of tank, the existence of recovery and what kind of recovery we will have has a significant impact survivability of this Pokemon. In addition, both forms of CAP30 have primary roles based around landing big damage at opportune times, and this is emphasized for 30i in particular due to the STAB-boosting item it carries at all times, so determining what is on the table for STAB seems like a big priority as well.

Should CAP30 have access to recovery? Feel free to look at each form individually when discussing how necessary recovery is.

If CAP30 should get recovery, what kind of recovery should it receive? We have the standard 16 PP forms of recovery, more conditional moves like Synthesis, or alternative forms like Rest or Leech Seed.
  • If 16 PP is your choice, what impact does Roost have versus other forms that do not take away CAP30's Flying type?
  • Are there any conflicts between the recovery 30b might want and the recovery 30i might want?
What STAB options would each form prefer to use? Does one form's preferences have problematic implications with the other form?

Are there any STAB selections outside of the usual damage-dealing options that either form could find useful?
For the purposes of this question, the "usual damage-dealing options" is the following list:
Gunk Shot
Poison Jab
Sludge Bomb
Sludge Wave
Brave Bird
Drill Peck
Hurricane
Air Slash

I am putting a soft limit of 48 hours on these questions, then I will be back with more questions.
 
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Should CAP30 have access to recovery? Feel free to look at each form individually when discussing how necessary recovery is.

If CAP30 should get recovery, what kind of recovery should it receive? We have the standard 16 PP forms of recovery, more conditional moves like Synthesis, or alternative forms like Rest or Leech Seed.
  • If 16 PP is your choice, what impact does Roost have versus other forms that do not take away CAP30's Flying type?
  • Are there any conflicts between the recovery 30b might want and the recovery 30i might want?
To follow our concept of Optimized Ability, 30b (and by extension 30a) should have access to reliable recovery.

Stamina as an ability demands that the pokemon in question remains for multiple turns on the field, to be able to abuse it's boosts, not to mention that we've given ourselves the role of tank, a reliable 16pp recovery move should definitely be considered due to these reasons.

On the roost vs standard recovery side of things, standard recovery is generally better, since having roost puts us at a 50/50 in low hp scenarios against ground types, which we are supposed to safely/situationaly switch into, this is exceptionally harder for 30b, since lando-t now completely shuts it down, since the threat of eq denies it's recovery, while it can pivot safely into a strong special threat, or knock off our item (usually boots).

On the coverage side of things, not much to be added, I believe we should have access to the strongest stab options avaible + at least one more accurate / no recoil version of that coverage.

I suggest the following structure:

Required: Brave Bird, Hurricane, Gunk Shot, at least one of (Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave), at least one of (Drill Peck, Dual Wingbeat), at least one of (Poison Jab, Cross Poison), at least one of (Milk Drink, Recover, Slack Off, Soft-Boiled, Shore Up)
Optional: Roost (still has a niche of removing electric and ice type and rock weaknesses against slower foes), Acrobatics, Fly, Sky Attack, Bounce, Venoshock
 

MrDollSteak

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Should CAP30 have access to recovery? If CAP30 should get recovery, what kind of recovery should it receive?

I think that locking in recovery is really quite important for both forms. While I don't think recovery is mandatory for 30i, I think it is incredibly important for the viability of 30b and making use of Stamina. I think that 30i also will like Recovery a lot and since it is important to factor into the power budget, I think it is important for us to mandate it now for both forms. I don't think there's any major balancing requirements for us in regards to the recovery we receive. I do think that 16 PP recovery is ideal for 30b in order to keep healthy as it tanks hits to build up Stamina boosts. I think Roost is probably ideal in that there is a potential downside to losing our Flying type in the face of slow Ground type Pokemon particularly on 30i.

Simply put, yes, I think 50% recovery in the form of Roost should be required.

What STAB options would each form prefer to use? Does one form's preferences have problematic implications with the other form?


I think that 30i in particular will want to prioritise its Flying stab. I think that we should really do our best to ensure that 30i has the most reliable and high power Flying STAB that it can use, which I would suggest is Brave Bird. That being said, 30b will probably not want to use Brave Bird because it reduces health and has anti synergy with tankiness in general. That being said, Corviknight runs it so I think it feasibly fits both. For 30b, however I think that it will realistically want to use reliable STABs with added effects such as Sludge Bomb and Air Slash, and possibly Gunk Shot as another high power option. While Hurricane and Gunk Shot are viable routes for 30i to take for their power as well, I think the low accuracy is going to be a problem with Tinted Lens, particularly in ensuring consistent 2HKOs.

Therefore, I think Brave Bird is absolutely the most important move for us to decide on as it will be quite important for our power budget in regards to stats for 30i. I would personally suggest that we require it. As for 30b, I think pretty much any reliable STAB option will find use and won't affect 30i too much.

Are there any STAB selections outside of the usual damage-dealing options that either form could find useful?

Acid Spray has some potential in terms of enabling some interesting special sets, but will realistically just be a meme option. Dual Wingbeat could also potentially be used for breaking subs but is otherwise outclassed by Drill Peck, so probably not, and therefore doesn't really require being mandated.
 
Should CAP30 have access to recovery? Feel free to look at each form individually when discussing how necessary recovery is.
As shown during threats discussion, stamina plus recovery will make physical counterplay incredibly difficult, even with SE STAB moves from strong breaker like Weavile:Weavile:, Syclant:Syclant:and Zeraora:Zeraora:. Obviously this is the best way to make stamina shine and Pokémon, that eat even Strong SE hits on their stronger defensive side exist.
The more reliable the recovery is, the better 30b can make use of it, to boost through physical attacks and shrug off resisted special hits.
As long as 30b remains in ko reach from some special attackers and struggles to break past more sturdy walls, reliable recovery is fine and unproblematic. We should still definitely be alert during stat limits, so we don’t build an unkillable behemoth, considering that 30b also can’t be worn down through toxic.

I think giving cap 30 reliable recovery is moreso important, because of how easy it is to wear down 30i through rocks and - if physical - recoil damage from Brave Bird, Rocky helmet and contact abilities.

An argument in favor of not giving reliable recovery would be, that we might be more lenient during stats limit and make the Pokémon stronger in other stages. (Although that’s not what I prefer)

Are there any conflicts between the recovery 30b might want and the recovery 30i might want?
In general both forms love recovery (the stronger the better). 30i wants to stay healthy despite its susceptibility to chip damage and 30b wants to stay healthy as long as possible to accumulate boosts.
Since recovery is strictly pro concept for 30b and also helps 30i getting more value out of its ability regardless of offensive bias, Cap 30 should have access to some form of reliable (16pp/50%) recovery.
If 16 PP is your choice, what impact does Roost have versus other forms that do not take away CAP30's Flying type?
Roost removing flying type has some interesting implications for cap 30.
On one hand it removes flying type weaknesses, which can come in handy and on the other hand it makes this typing weak to ground moves.
If we’re realistic though the former only has an impact if the speed of cap 30 is at least >95 (making it maybe possible to roost vs. Kyurem) or above 130 to take neutral damage from mons like Koko, Weavile and Syclant.
I think this seems unrealistic - at least for 30b - and even if one of CAP 30 were that fast, simply attacking these frail mons would probably be better anyway.

This leaves the Ground type interaction, which I think is fairly interesting.
In general This too would come down to speed.
A slow roost would deny ground types the option of predicting and hitting for super effective damage, but might also give them the chance to pivot out unhurt (Lando, Swampert), use utility or remove 30bs item, etc, before the form(s) can act.
A fast roost on the other hand, could potentially be abused to hit the form(s) SE, opening another way of counterplay, but also would mean, that a faster CAP 30 might be more threatening offensively, to Pokémon using ground moves.

Imo roost creates very interesting interactions with this typing and as it is a staple on flying types, it should be our first option, although other recovery might work as well.

What STAB options would each form prefer to use? Does one form's preferences have problematic implications with the other form?
I don’t think that the STAB options are mutually exclusive to any form. Both could run physical or special options.
Some say that, 30i might prefer physical, just bc Hurricane as the highest power STAB on the Special side is pretty unreliable, while Air Slash is simply too weak and reliability goes a long way on a mon, whose ability gives it incredibly reliable damage output already.
Brave Bird has the caveat though, that HP management will be Uber important for 30i, since chip from rocks, recoil, rocky helmet and contact abilities will stack up fast and might end up very crippling.
Im still torn between the unreliability of special moves and the Self crippling potential of physical attacks.
I think one thing to consider for 30i as a Wallbreaker is, that some of the strongest wallbreaker are balanced bc they will waste turns vs. walls if they mispredict a move (Eg Kyurem clicking ice beam vs. Heatran).
Picking between missing a hurricane and having to roost, is essentially us deciding, how we substitute these interactions on 30i, since misprediction will basically never happen.

Ultimately I like physical a tiny bit more, bc it puts this interaction into the players and the designers hands and doesn’t rely on luck for balancing.


30b On the other hand, I think, could work with both physical and special spreads.
If anything not being susceptible to chip damage and getting crippled by burns, seems nice for 30b, so I’m leaning slightly Special for it.
Are there any STAB selections outside of the usual damage-dealing options that either form could find useful?
I don’t think, that these moves are replaceable for both forms unless we’re willing to discuss legendary exclusive moves.
Moves like dragon ascent and aeroblast, would remove the biggest issues of flying STAB, so they could be interesting for especially CAP 30i but I don’t think they are necessary and actually remove an interesting balancing tool.

If anything Venoshock might be a cool tech on 30i, as it doesn’t have the traditional steels types as counterplay of its Flying and poison moves and it could enable it to break past poisoned checks.
Another move that could be cool for both forms is shell side arm, as it helps both Wallbreaker and tank to deal as much damage as possible.
 
I suggest the following structure:

Required: Brave Bird, Hurricane, Gunk Shot, at least one of (Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave), at least one of (Drill Peck, Dual Wingbeat), at least one of (Poison Jab, Cross Poison), at least one of (Milk Drink, Recover, Slack Off, Soft-Boiled, Shore Up)
Optional: Roost (still has a niche of removing electric and ice type and rock weaknesses against slower foes), Acrobatics, Fly, Sky Attack, Bounce, Venoshock
I appreciate you jumping right into the discussion, although I would like to point back to the OP (emphases mine):
In this stage, we will develop sets of moves that will meaningfully affect future stages of the process for this CAP. These moves will need to be addressed in the stat limits and stat submission stages in order to contextualize submitted spreads. For example, a stat submission that elects to choose stronger Defining Moves will be put under heavier scrutiny than those without them. The chosen Defining Moves should be considered essential to the CAP's concept and/or chosen role. Defining Moves does not necessarily exclude moves from consideration in the Movesets Discussion, so not all of the CAP's viable moves need to be decided in this stage.
In short, the moves need to be fundamental to the functioning of the CAP, and should also be relevant to stat calculations down the line. This means that moves like Fly, Sky Attack, Venoshock, and Bounce, which do not see much competitive mileage, should come with justifications for why these moves are important to the CAP. Similarly, I'd like to see context on some of the "at least one" options, such as why a move like Cross Poison, widely considered inferior to Poison Jab except for specific conditions, is listed under Required, and if there is a meaningful difference on Sludge Bomb versus Sludge Wave. If you're still a bit unsure, it may be helpful to refer to how Defining Moves was run last CAP; there will be some differences, but I'll take a similar approach in sticking to the necessities.
I hope this post doesn't come across as calling you out. Defining moves is still rather new as a stage, so I wanted to take this opportunity to establish some more ground.
 

Estronic

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Sorry, if this post is a bit hard to read or follow; I did this in a rush.

Should CAP30 have access to recovery?
We should have at least some type of recovery just because CAP30 as a whole demands it by virtue of its typing and the fact that 30b's and 30i's roles need it in order to be a viable option over other Pokemon. CAP30's Flying typing means that for CAP30b, it's most likely going to be forced to run Heavy-Duty Boots, so there's no room for Leftovers, and for CAP30i, it's going to be forced to hold an item, so it'll be taking Stealth Rock damage no matter what. CAP30b will benefit from recovery because, as a defensive Pokemon, it's going to be switching into attacks often, especially considering that Stamina will help it a lot with that. Likewise, CAP30i will benefit from recovery as well because as it breaks through other Pokemon, there's no doubt that it'll be taking chip damage from those Pokemon as it does. Its weakness to Stealth Rock I feel definitely is the reason why I would be in full support of recovery, though.

If CAP30 should get recovery, what kind of recovery should it receive?
Roost is probably the best option here simply because both formes benefit from it enough compared to other forms of recovery; CAP30i wouldn't benefit as much from recovery like Leech Seed, for example. Plus, it could introduce some counterplay for matchups against Pokemon with Ground-type moves, but perhaps I'm thinking too far ahead.

In terms of other options, going with an 8 PP recovery move like Synthesis or Morning Sun could make sure that CAP30i would have be more careful at finding opportunities to recover, but that kind of screws over CAP30b and its longevity. Strength Sap also sounds pretty funny, especially for CAP30b, but it'll probably make fighting against them incredibly overwhelming.

What STAB options would each form prefer to use? Does one form's preferences have problematic implications with the other form?
CAP30i would want to probably use the most powerful STAB options it can get, being Brave Bird, Hurricane, Gunk Shot, and Sludge Wave. Brave Bird I guess could be swapped out for Drill Peck if the recoil damage would be rough to manage, but with access to recovery, it shouldn't be that much of a pain. CAP30b would probably want to stick with the more weaker moves but have additional effects it can use to its advantage. Air Slash's flinch chance is always useful, while Sludge Bomb's and Poison Jab's increased poison chance can make it great at wearing down the opposition.

Are there any STAB selections outside of the usual damage-dealing options that either form could find useful?
Clear Smog could potential be a very useful move for CAP30b, especially when combined with its Stamina boosts (Clear Smog only resets the stats of the target, unlike Haze), reinforcing its role as a wall and supporting our concept goal to optimize its ability the best we can. I saw Shell Side Arm got mentioned before, and while I think it's a pretty cool move, I don't particularly see any use for it for either forme. Sure, for CAP30i, it might do more damage to like, one or two Pokemon, but it'll probably be better for it to maximize its damage output for whatever attacking spectrum it happens to be. That's really it for Poison-type moves; the selection is pretty scarce.

Our selection for Flying-type moves isn't all that better, either. I guess if it's allowed, Oblivion Wing could be an interesting move to give to CAP30 as the form of recovery, since both formes could benefit from it well. Besides that very unlikely scenario, though, I don't have anything else to say regarding other Flying-type moves.
 

spoo

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Should CAP30 have access to recovery?
Yes
If CAP30 should get recovery, what kind of recovery should it receive?
Anything with 16 PP. The key difference here being that Roost is a little more interactive, possible to abuse, and arguably more interesting, while Recover is simply more reliable overall. I'm inclined to prefer Recover right now because of its consistency, because Roost mindgames are really annoying, and because we don't really "need" the downside it adds -- ie, it doesn't lower our power budget enough to then use a strong option we wouldn't have been able to use otherwise, and there's nothing about our inherent strength that needs that kind of balancing weakness -- but this isn't a hill I'm going to die on. Roost mindgames are still annoying though.
What STAB options would each form prefer to use? Does one form's preferences have problematic implications with the other form?

30i Wants to use its Flying-type STAB, full stop. It may use Poison moves as a more reliable option -- if we're a special attacker then Poison STAB will be more accurate than Flying, while if we're physical we can use Poison moves to avoid dying to recoil -- but it will primarily be spamming its strongest Flying-type move, likely Brave Bird or Hurricane. 30b Is more complicated, but I think it will prefer Poison-type moves. The reliability and secondary effects of Poison-type moves make them a bit easier to spam for a tank like us, and Flying-type moves aren't dramatically better against almost any of the mons that we are naturally suited to answer by virtue of our typing and ability. I don't immediately see any troubling implications that arise between these two preferences.
Are there any STAB selections outside of the usual damage-dealing options that either form could find useful? For the purposes of this
I don't think so? Shell Side Arm was mentioned, but I don't believe it's necessary. I feel that a large strength of this move is that it allows 30b to be a special attacker while still checking CM Fairies, but we require a significant Attack stat to do so anyways (if we wanted to spend all our EVs in bulk or SpA then ~120 Atk is what it takes to 2HKO Clefable). So like, we might as well just be a physical attacker at that point anyways y'know. I guess it also lets us be a physical attacker that can break Buzzwole but that feels like an overly niche use. Outside of these scenarios, it's more or a less a generically high-powered option that lets us optimize damage against our opponent, but I'm not sold on how it lets us accomplish something fundamentally different than other options like Gunk Shot and why that is needed for our success.

Clear Smog is cool for CM Fairies and not much else. Maybe rev/tornadus/volcarona if our bulk is exceptional? I think it's ultimately an underwhelming option compared to something like Gunk Shot or Sludge Bomb. It would also have very little impact on stat limits and calculations for spreads, which is primarily what this stage is for; I think this would be better left to the broader movesets stage. Other Flying-type STAB is also unnecessary. It's basically just Oblivion Wing, and I'm not anywhere near convinced on why that's something we need.
 

Brambane

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Should CAP30 have access to recovery?
If CAP30 should get recovery, what kind of recovery should it receive?

Yes, and I think Roost is the most logical choice. Maybe sometimes you Roost against something that slow EQs you, but other than that the removal of Flying-typing is a net positive. You overall shed more noteworthy weaknesses by Roosting than resists you lose. We have seen this interaction at work with Zapdos, and it makes Zapdos arguably a more interesting Pokemon because of it, so I am all for it.

What STAB options would each form prefer to use? Does one form's preferences have problematic implications with the other form?
Are there any STAB selections outside of the usual damage-dealing options that either form could find useful?
Flying is the objectively better type for Tinted Lens. 30i has less survivability due to SR weakness, so it would 100% prefer strong reliable STABs that don't inflict recoil. That doesn't exist for Flying.

OR DOES IT?

Humans and Pokemon of the Forum, allow me to present to you the VAST ARRAY of marvelous moves extracted from the finest fliers across Ubers. We shall take to the skies and break the imposed restrictions upon creativity. Power! Consistency! The breath of legends as the wind to our backs!

Aeroblast: A formidable 100 BP move with near perfect accuracy and increased critical hit chance for EXTRA BULLSHIT. The size of its PP will leave you as disappointed as my prom date, but this does make Corviknight more interesting with Pressure. This move enables a special attacking spread without the innate horseshit everyone hates about Hurricane!

Dragon Ascent: A Flying-type Close Combat is exceptionally strong, although it too has poopy PP and arguably even worse against Corviknight due to its higher physical Defense. This move would make 30i more able to click the funny button without having to pause to heal, which is better or worse for design based on perspective. Honestly, I think having a wallbreaker more limited by PP than HP is probably going to lead to a more successful and viable product, but perhaps a less interesting one, both to use and to play against.

Oblivion Wing: Who cares if its only 5 BP more powerful than Air Slash, this move fucking rules. 75% lifesteal healing off of a Tinted Lens STAB move? LUDICROUS. Which is why I think this is a pretty miserable choice for us on 30i, but a solid one for 30b. There is some mouth-watering value from a tank that can deal damage, heal, and increase its Defense on literally the same turn. Such disgusting tempo is the kind of "unfair bullshit" a lot of viable Pokemon embrace in the current meta.

Poison is overall shite, but serviceable with Sludge Bomb/Gunk Shot alone.
 

Wulfanator

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Should CAP30 have access to recovery? If CAP30 should get recovery, what kind of recovery should it receive?
Yes. Both forms want recovery and the 16pp recovery options fill that need nicely. I agree with spoo in regards to 16pp options like recover, slack off, and milk drink being better over all compared to roost. The removal of mindgames allows both forms to better abuse the ground-types they can switch in on. I do think there are some situations that 30b would prefer roost compare to the other options so allowing both roost and another form of 16pp 50% recovery could be a good option. I do think it goes without saying that shore up should not be considered in the 16pp recovery since it can be slightly better than the others.

I will say that I would be in favor of including leech seed. I am a fan of aggressive leech seed strategies, but that is less recovery and more utility.

What STAB options would each form prefer to use? Does one form's preferences have problematic implications with the other form?
Will agree with spoo's comments yet again. I will add that we can probably determine the offensive bias for 30i now by looking at the threats discussion. 30b is less obvious because the reliable secondary effects may be more valuable.

Are there any STAB selections outside of the usual damage-dealing options that either form could find useful?
I think legendary exclusive moves are out of the question. I think allowing them would over compensate for the "flaws" of each form and would hurt the final product when trying to balance for them. Of all the moves not already assumed, I think shell sidearm could be an interesting way to have a special offensive mon that can still reliably break the CM fairies.
 
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Should CAP30 have access to recovery?
Yes. The primary concern I feel behind recovery is putting it on Stamina mon with the possibility of significant Bulk with a decent defensive typing. However, Mudsdale has a pretty good defensive array, yet struggles to make use of Stamina effectively IMHO. Mudsdale resist Rocks, and is Immune to Electric - due to a lack of Recovery it still can't leverage itself effectively. Recovery access is a strong yes.

If CAP30 should get recovery, what kind of recovery should it receive?
Conditional. Roost is fairly traditional for Flying types, but not required (Celesteela, Lando/Thund, Rayquaza, e.g), however being able to remove Flying weaknesses, healing and combined with Stamina could be tilting, although recognise the impact of losing Earthquake immunity. Given EQ Immunity anyway, if you're in a position to be EQ Immune and click attack, or not be EQ Immune and heal, it would be better to hit "attack" regardless, no?

Conditional healing like Synthesis/Moonlight, with their reduced PP and ability to be reduced in effectiveness I feel allow for more potential counterplay options without completely gimping CAP30. One interaction is Rain Teams granting Perfect Accuracy Hurricane to abuse with Tinted Lens, and adding Fire Resistance to try and take advantage of - however, it does impact how much healing CAP30 can take advantage of if it does so. Shore Up could also work for 30b on Sand Teams - you take chip damage, but have a excellent healing on top of the Stamina.

Are there any conflicts between the recovery 30b might want and the recovery 30i might want?
30i, with Tinted Lens has a quite a lot of Freedom with its role compression - and I feel that Drain Healing could assist with that as an additional way of utilizing Tinted Lens. I'm a little concerned about Drain Punch specifically though, which is SE against Steel Type switch-ins, which if combined with other healing sources on top of Stamina in particular could prove troublesome. I also don't think there's a place for Leech Seed - the combination of Leech Seed, Black Sludge, and Stamina could quickly get out of hand.

What STAB options would each form prefer to use? Does one form's preferences have problematic implications with the other form?
30b's most notable interaction is Defense stacking. To make defense stacking actually threatening outside of stall, we can use Power Trip or Body Press, both of which are physical. Neither of these are STAB, but to make use of STAB effectively AND the defense stacking mechanic on the same profile, it would make sense to be physical in nature. 30i doesn't have a problem with this; although Gunk Shot in 80% Accuracy is likely to encourage Poison Jab, and Brave Bird can necessitate healing, so having access also to the special spectrum via Sludge Wave/Hurricane would be ideal.

30i can also operate with single STAB if it has additional moves in its pool for its own utility, and multiple threatening moves with which to take advantage. As others has mentioned; Flying is the better out of the two STABS for this purpose, but 4x Effectiveness with Poison against the likes of Jumbao and Tinted Lens offsets many of its own weaknesses as an attacking type.

Are there any STAB selections outside of the usual damage-dealing options that either form could find useful?
Venoshock
. Inflicting Toxic on a switch, and then hitting with a 130BP Special Attack, especially when boosted by Tinted Lens is quickly going to rack up damage on all except Poison Immunes. Sky Attack with Power Herb gives a big nuke option. Clear Smog is a good option to prevent Haze prevention via Taunts. Beak Blast is a weird one generally outclassed; but Arghonaut/Steel types could find themselves earning a Crippling Burn. Special mention I think also for Oblivion Wing (caveat aware that as a Legendary exclusive it may recieve some pushback) as a special type of Drain Healing specifically catering for a Special Attacker. If it's not obvious, I'm in the camp of 30i = Special Attacker/30b = Physical currently, and therefore Oblivion Wing as a Special Draining move in conjunction with Tinted Lens would work very well to offset Rocks damage without snowballing with Stamina.

Mod Edit: Removing Power Trip / Body Press discussion as it is not time yet.
 
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Should CAP30 have access to recovery?

If CAP30 should get recovery, what kind of recovery should it receive?
Given the inherent weaknesses of our typing, the role we've given 30b, and 30i's inability to hold items beyond its own, having Recovery feels vital for success.

16 PP 50% Recovery moves are the best and simplest way of accomplishing this. There is some nuance between Roost and other options but for the most part these are the same and any of them bar Shore Up are perfectly fine.

What impact does Roost have versus other forms that do not take away CAP30's Flying type?
Oh, right, well essentially if we're faster we are liable to hard reads leaving us thrashed, but can also block some SE hits from happening, which is cool. Unfortunately there's not as many situations where an incoming Electric or Ice attack is from a slower mon compared to a faster one, while moves like EQ or Earth Power have plenty of slower users that can threaten us on the Roost.

Overall however Roost feels like a fine addition that isn't any better or worse than other options, and using a Ground move on a predicted Roost is always a risk one has to take.

Are there any conflicts between the recovery 30b might want and the recovery 30i might want?
The only thing I can think of that's reasonable is Oblivion Wing, whose legality for this concept is questionable. I could see both forms appreciating it as a reliable Special STAB move, but it might be a tad much on 30i given the HP restored and its lack of resistances.

What STAB options would each form prefer to use? Does one form's preferences have problematic implications with the other form?
30i wants to spam Flying STAB as much as possible as it faces zero immunities, unlike Poison. In terms of bias, Physical is more consistent and generally a bit stronger but worse for longevity, while Special keeps us healthier at the cost of missing Hurricane or Air Slash (assuming Obivion Wing is off the table).

30b goes either way honestly. Flying is good neutrally so it's easy to slot in, while Poison isn't as offensively applicable but much better on a Pokemon that prioritizes crippling the opponent long-term due to the Poison chance of our most reliable attacks. You also have Poison moves generally being better than Flying in terms of stats.

I don't see any real issue between the two, but I will say we should focus on 30i first as I don't think 30b is going to care about being Physical or Special nearly as much, seeing how Poison Jab and Sludge Bomb are two great moves on 30b that, for all intents and purposes, are exactly the same regarding our power budget.

Are there any STAB selections outside of the usual damage-dealing options that either form could find useful?
As far as Defining Moves go, not really. Stuff like Clear Smog, Shell Side Arm, and Sky Attack might be interesting but are by no means necessary to function. Again, the only outlier here is Oblivion Wing due to its perfect accuracy and HP draining effect, but it's certainly going to be (or already is) a controversial topic.
 
If CAP30 should get recovery, what kind of recovery should it receive? Recover. Roost doesnt grant any benefits that recover doesnt, 99% of electric, rock, and ice type move users are heavy speed investment and/or fast to begin with and mons like Landorus, Hippo, and Colossoil are key things to reliably beat that would otherwise be able to kill us with EQ if we outspeed (more impactful than it perhaps teching stone edge). I think "power budget" is pointless to bring up here between the two. Recover just adds consistency to help the mon get usage.

What STAB options would each form prefer to use? Does one form's preferences have problematic implications with the other form?
Brave Bird is the most consistent STAB move in a vacuum. However Hurricane is way more preferable for Tinted Lens. most of the steel types in the tier are heavily physdef, so Hurricane has impact vs Melmetal, Skarmory, Corviknight, Cawmodore, as well as other Flying resists like Zapdos at lower SpA, whereas Brave Birds should realistically never get through the birds with recovery. I noticed that there's only one conditional mon that interacts with Tinted Lens on the threats list (one steel type, either melmetal or heatran) which is pretty disappointing tbh. Here's an easy way to rectify that.
Sludge Bomb is a really good reliable special attack to pair alongside it, with a helpful poison chance.

I think both mons benefit from Hurricane- both are likely to have no recovery so will really appreciate not chipping themselves, and it also makes the process easier by requiring less SpA for tinted lens. While missing Hurricane is annoying for 30i who has limited switchins, they have the freedom of a more reliable and incredibly useful poison stab in Sludge Bomb, which if switched in on by a Corv, Skarm, or Cawmodore, would lead to being destroyed by Hurricanes and losing 1v1 anyway, so the critical miss seems less bothersome in practice. Hurricane is a good move and mons often are willing to use it. So I dont want to overdramatize its miss chance.
I think if it gets Brave Bird and loses to common switchins to Flying and Poison types with its stab moves then Tinted Lens does nothing for it (which is a concept fail), meanwhile the logistics of Brave Bird needing 130+ Atk to start having a decent chance to 2hko Corv after SR sounds messy.

Stamina's choice I think is less important, because it doesnt seem to have that much offensive impact, however itll be more likely to force out Arghonaut with Hurricane without any investment, whereas a decently high atk Stamina mon with Brave Bird would be able to threaten Slowking-G better.
 
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I'm coming in at (around) the halfway mark of this particular discussion to give an update of where my mind is at right now, based on how discussion has gone so far. Keep in mind that this is a WIP, and I am perfectly willing to change things based on what happens in the future.

Required: At least one of (Gunk Shot / Poison Jab / Sludge Bomb), at least one of (Brave Bird / Drill Peck / Hurricane / Air Slash), only one of (Roost / non-Roost unconditional 50% recovery)
Optional: None at the moment

Although it's fairly clear that the majority is for unconditional 16 PP recovery, the type of recovery is a bit split at the moment. Some people have advocated for Roost because of the potential interactions with Ground type and the ability to remove some weaknesses, and others have advocated for Recover because they prefer its consistency and see Roost's interactions as unnecessary. At the moment, I'm inclined to allow a choice between Roost and non-Roost consistent recovery as a sort of compromise. If you have any thoughts about Roost vs Recover, make sure to say so!

For STABs, Gunk Shot and Sludge Bomb as Poison STAB alternatives, and Brave Bird and Hurricane as Flying STAB alternatives were obvious picks, based on how much they've been pointed to in this thread. I added Poison Jab as an alternative to Gunk Shot, Drill Peck as an alternative to Brave Bird, and Air Slash as an alternative to Hurricane. Sludge Wave does not differ enough from Sludge Bomb that I find it necessary to list, and people seem to prefer Sludge Bomb's higher Poison chance to Sludge Wave's 5 base power increase. Shell Side Arm has been generally viewed as a potentially nice bonus against certain CM Fairies, but ultimately unnecessary, so it was not placed on here. I need more arguments for it for me to consider Oblivion Wing, as many of the mentions of it don't see it as particularly necessary either. Everything else has only been talked about sparingly, including moves like Venoshock and Leech Seed.

If you think something should be left off or added, or if you just want to answer the original discussion questions or respond to someone else's post, make your voice heard by posting in the thread. I will be back in about 21 hours, as initially promised.
 
I'm just going to throw out there that I don't think talk about Oblivion Wing is so much about whether or not CAP30 "needs" it, as it is about optimizing the Abilities of both CAP formes and emphasizing their tank/wallbreaking roles. Simply put, Oblivion Wing's recovery can potential help 30i out-muscle walls and gain further Stamina boosts. I think either forme (if not both) will have a lot of doors closed to it without Oblivion Wing.

Roost obviously makes slow (and likely strong) Ground type attacks a punishing play. I am going to be forward and say that I am pretty concerned that CAP30 will have a difficult time making it in this metagame. A dependence on Roost will harm selected match-ups discussed in the previous stage, several of which being Ground-types, whereas Recover enables CAP30b to potentially check Ground types without strong rock coverage. And since this Pokemon has such an atrocious typing for what it wants to accomplish, I think we're better off lending competitive niches to this Pokemon and not give it a difficult time checking what it's already supposed to.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Should CAP30 have access to recovery?

Both forms really like recovery here, mostly for the sake of longevity. 30i has to take Stealth Rock damage if they are still up and that will eat through its health quickly if not smart. There are other factors as well that could very quickly wear it down as well (burns and recoil if using Brave Bird). Having an option to be able to recover that lost health just offers more opportunities for it to wallbreak, which is very in line with what CAP30 is seeking. 30b similarly likes recovery just to bolster it's ability to wall physical threats and synergizes well with Stamina. More time on the field without switching means more boosts. I dont really see any scenario where recover becomes a negative thing for either to have.


If CAP30 should get recovery, what kind of recovery should it receive?

Both I think would like consistency over anything else, especially 30b, so I think the 16 PP moves will be the best to invest in. Something like Synthesis could still be decent option on 30i considering it will be using less recovery, but since they are grouped together and 30b absolutely wants 16 PP moves so it can stay in longer, I dont see the point of 8 PP overdue to its redundancy. Pain Split could also be a fun form of pseudo-recovery, but I'm skeptical of its ability to keep 30i's momentum and it's hard to lock into with knowing our HP ranges. Could be an interesting optional move but not at all required.

What impact does Roost have versus other forms that do not take away CAP30's Flying type?

Its dependent on speed tiers for its validity but Roost could allow for some mindgames against mons like Zapdos, Kyurem, and Thunder Punch Melmetal to try and turn their super effective hits into neutral hits. I think it's not the most important deal to have and other recovery is fine, but Roost is still quite neat.

Are there any conflicts between the recovery 30b might want and the recovery 30i might want?

Not really. I do think that 30b wants 16 PP recovery more than anything, but 30i doesnt really want anything different so it work out solidly well for it.

Are there any STAB selections outside of the usual damage-dealing options that either form could find useful?

I think the given eight work well enough as is. Shell Side Arm is an alternative I guess for physical biased 30 sets as stronger than Poison Jab whilst more consistent than Gunk Shot but I think both are effective enough as is that a middleman option really isnt that neccessary. The Photon Geyser bias targeting is interesting but if it turned special I think 30 would rather just run Sludge Bomb.

Please do not give this Oblivion Wing, it seems completely unnecessary. Aside from the optics issues it presents, 30i is already likely to get recovery through Recover or Roost so any matter of longevity is mostly solved. There is the matter of momentum that Oblivion Wing maintains better, but that I feel is centralized around 30i only and 30i already has some solid options wrt Tinted Lens Flying-type STAB. It's a fun gimmick, but I really dont see why we should give something access to Legendary exclusive moves so flippantly when solid options like Hurricane and Brave Bird are on the table.
 

snake_rattler

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For STABs, Gunk Shot and Sludge Bomb as Poison STAB alternatives, and Brave Bird and Hurricane as Flying STAB alternatives were obvious picks, based on how much they've been pointed to in this thread. I added Poison Jab as an alternative to Gunk Shot, Drill Peck as an alternative to Brave Bird, and Air Slash as an alternative to Hurricane.
Here's something I've been thinking about since Tinted Lens + Flying typing was chosen. I think Hurricane is a poor STAB choice of Flying-type STAB from a project perspective. Tinted Lens Flying-type STAB is incredibly potent: basically every Pokemon except for Magnezone gets hit neutrally. Given that CAP30i has such the strong asset of unresisted Flying-type STAB, I think the key component to CAP30i being healthy is knowing what it is going to do. With a relatively accurate STAB, you know that if CAP30i is going to use its unresisted Flying-type STAB move, it's going to hit and do damage. In other words, I don't want the counterplay to CAP30i's strongest move to be "I hope Hurricane misses" or a balancing factor to CAP30i's creation to be "oh, but Hurricane will miss a lot." I just think it's going to be better for both sides of the field when CAP30i is on the field.

Given this, it's my opinion that the best STAB option is Brave Bird. Again, when CAP30i hits the field, you know that CAP30i's strongest move will be Brave Bird, you know that it will hit, and you know that it will take recoil damage. I'm not sure if it's necessary to remove Hurricane from the defining moves list, but it might be worth considering.
 
Not much has changed since my last post, so we are mostly sticking with my WIP list. I am making one edit to disallow Shore Up because it is better than the other non-Roost forms of 16 PP recovery.

Required: At least one of (Gunk Shot / Poison Jab / Sludge Bomb), at least one of (Brave Bird / Drill Peck / Hurricane / Air Slash), only one of (Roost / Recover / Slack Off / Milk Drink / Soft-Boiled)
Optional: None at the moment

It has come to the attention of the CAP mod team and the TLT that the legendary signature move provision (which you can find in the moveset submissions OP here), was not addressed properly. While previous discussion of legendary signature moves will stay, Wulfanator and I have decided that we will not allow further discussion of legendary signature moves, including Oblivion Wing, Aeroblast, and Dragon Ascent, as none of them seem particularly relevant to the CAP with respect to the rest of the categories.

We'll be moving onto strong utility moves and extraordinary coverage moves. 30i is a utility wallbreaker that uses Tinted Lens to help compress moveslots for an extra utility move, and chances are that 30b as a tank will look to run a utility option if given the chance, so getting an idea of what these forms would be looking to do in their extra moveslot is useful in thinking about of how matchups might go in stats. The question of coverage also bears importance in that 30b may seek tools that could become disproportionately strong with 30i's Tinted Lens if stats are not tuned properly, so deciding on what 30b needs will allow us to properly account for that in stats.

What kind of utility moves would each form make use of? What impacts do one form's proposed utility moves have on the other form?

Given the boosted power of its STABs, does 30i need any coverage? If so, how does the coverage interact with Tinted Lens?

What kind of coverage would 30b prefer? Are there any moves that have particular interactions with Stamina?

Do the proposed coverage moves of each form have problematic implications with the other form?


I will give another 48 hours for these questions, then come back with more questions.
 
What kind of utility moves would each form make use of? What impacts do one form's proposed utility moves have on the other form?
Taunt could be used on both forms, 30i to shut down more passive defensive Pokemon and break through them and 30b to force opponents to attack it and activate Stamina.
Item manipulation in the form of Trick or Knock Off could cripple an opponent and make them easier to break (30i) or if the mon relied on its item for high damage output 30b could tank them more easily. This also goes for status moves such as Glare, Toxic or Will-O-Wisp, especially burning for 30b, who could also utilize Haze or phazing moves for set-up sweepers.
There's Rapid Spin/Defog for hazard control which is sometimes used on Utility Wallbreaker Kartana (who also uses Knock Off), though having a hazard controller weak to hazards might not be optimal.
Overall I think one of Taunt, Trick/Knock Off, Toxic and maybe Will-O-Wisp should be required and Haze, phazing and hazard control can be optional.

Given the boosted power of its STABs, does 30i need any coverage? If so, how does the coverage interact with Tinted Lens?
Looking at its STABs, 30i can hit Fairy, Bug, Grass and Fighting-types super-effectively and Ghost, Ground, Poison, Rock, Electric and Steel-types are hit with a Tinted Lens boost. Even if you don't count Electric and Rock since they can hit back, that's still half the type chart, and only Psychic and Ice out of the remaining types can hit back super-effectively. I'm inclined to giving it mostly redundant coverage that might cover a few more neutral matchups it has with only STAB, and Dragon or Fairy seem like solid choices to me, giving better matchups against Dragon or Dark and Fire, respectively. A problematic matchup I can see with this is beating Weavile, which is currently a check for 30i, so i'm a bit hesitant on Fairy.
Specfic moves would be Dragon Claw, Outrage and Play Rough on the physical side and Dragon Pulse, Dazzling Gleam and Moonblast on the special side.

What kind of coverage would 30b prefer? Are there any moves that have particular interactions with Stamina?
The moves that come to mind here are Body Press, Stored Power and Power Trip, all of which have good synergy with Stamina, especially Body Press, and as such would be pro-concept.

Do the proposed coverage moves of each form have problematic implications with the other form?
Body Press, Stored Power and Power Trip won't really affect 30i as long as we don't give it a strong boosting move and again, Fairy coverage for Weavile might be problem.
 
What kind of utility moves would each form make use of? What impacts do one form's proposed utility moves have on the other form?
Toxic
; 100% Accurate toxics significantly improve the utility of Tinted Lens; it racks up additional chip damage, and means that switch-ins otherwise able to take a resisted hit are even more threatened by its neutrality.
Hazard removal, particularly Defog, works well with the low accuracy of some of the higher powered STAB moves, and the turns generated by the momentum. I feel that Tinted Lens as an ability gets the least utility out of this - Tinted Lens punishes those switching in because it mitigates resistances, so opponents will likely be tempted to suicide their mon to do extra damage - especially if there's a chance you click Defog and have taken Rocks damage.
Taunt synergises excellently with Stamina; not only do you prevent being Hazed, but you can force a passive pokemon to generate free Stamina damage.
Haze ironically can work particularly well - outspeeding an opponent, hazing them, and taking unboosted damage to trigger Stamina.

Given the boosted power of its STABs, does 30i need any coverage? If so, how does the coverage interact with Tinted Lens?
Tinted Lens is hard to suggest coverage moves for, unfortunately. Tinted Len's only interaction is +1 Stage vs NVE attacks. Taking coverage means then being able to target SE, reducing the utilization of Tinted Lens - the only time at which Tinted Lens could be identified as being utilized is if the specific combination of TL-boosted STAB + SE non-STAB grabbed a kill that NVE STAB+SE non-STAB couldn't get.

What kind of coverage would 30b prefer? Are there any moves that have particular interactions with Stamina?
Sorry, jumped in a bit with this a bit too early, but it makes sense to jump on it right now - Power Trip, Stored Power and Body Press. Both have the same basis, but affect different proposed answers for CAP30. Power Trip targets Psychics, Body Press Steels - it should be noted that Power Trip can hit Ghost switch-ins to a predicted Body Press quite hard, but that would likely mean that 30B is running 4 attacks between it's STABs and the coverage.

PT and BP are both physical, which I think plays nicely into one of Poison-types unique moves in Coil. Coil after 1 turn of Stamina gives +4 Stages and +1 100BP Power Trip, or +2 80BP Body Press. Coil's accuracy increase plays nicely with Gunk Shot, boosting it to 100% Accuracy. Power Trip, Stored Power and Body Press in particularly are not "only" pro-stamina utilization, they are intentionally designed to work with offense boosting using alternative stats.

Coil is not required, but thought it important to mention with regards to the domino effect relating to Body Press+Stamina and STAB Poison Phys moves. Coil is also reasonable at off-setting low accuracy Hurricane to in theory allow mixed-sets.

There is Drain Punch also. This is possibly one of the most concerning inclusions I think for CAP30b. Stamina provides Defense stacking, STAB, Power Trip generates from Defense Stacking while Drain Punch off-sets damage and puts additional damage on Steel-types; as well as enabling assault vest. Stamina was recommended as a fix for Malaconda, but the combination of healing and stat bulk was considered to be too much.

Do the proposed coverage moves of each form have problematic implications with the other form?
This depends on offensive stat focus for each type. One of the concerns about Tinted Lens optimization is that Tinted Lens has a fairly proscriptive window within which to operate; the easier it is to generate +X Att/SpA stages for Tinted Lens, the less valuable Tinted Lens is, becoming a wasted opportunity cost of an ability, and puts more weight on the stat array. However, Power Trip in particular gets a double dip benefit from Att Stages.
 
What kind of utility moves would each form make use of? What impacts do one form's proposed utility moves have on the other form?
With the proper stat spread, 30b can likely make use of any utility move (with plausible distribution) it wants due to having the tanky spread (and Heavy-Duty Boots) to use them.

A major type of utility move not already mentioned is hazards. Even with no recovery, 30b can set up any hazard quite well TankChomp-style, especially when forcing switches with the threat of Stamina. 30i can also pull a Greninja and set hazards on predicted switch-ins to mons that wall it.

Sticky Web is likely the most concerning of the hazards, as it can enable 30i to outspeed more than it really should (even if some checks like Zeraora wear Heavy-Duty Boots themselves, there's always the risk of Knock Off support).

Speaking of Sticky Web, 30b can be a resilient Trick Room setter even if it shares some weaknesses with Fidgit. 30i just might become an offensive Trick Room setter if it is slow enough, although it might be better to balance 30i out by making it too fast for Trick Room.

Another not-yet-mentioned utility option is Encore, which does run the risk of being maddening to play against (e.g. a mon such as Chromera thinks 30b is set-up bait and Calm Minds on it, you predict that Astrolotl will use Fire Lash because at least it effectively doesn't trigger Stamina and might force 30b to use recovery, you predict a physical attacker will use hazards/hazard removal/Leech Seed and then high-tail it out of here against 30b, etc.). A fast enough 30i can also use Encore effectively, especially if it can tank a hit or two.

A weird, last-ditch option for utility moves is self-KO moves. These behave like one-use pivot moves that KO the user and make opposing moves such as Defog miss. Damaging self-KO moves such as Explosion or even Misty Explosion can deal consistent damage in the process in 30i's hands (unless it hits an immunity). Final Gambit's usability depends on speed and HP (unless we pull a Zygarde, base HP will probably be the same for both forms, though). Memento can open up a one-time set-up opportunity, while Healing Wish can refresh an injured team member if 30i otherwise will get KOed before it accomplishes much or 30b no longer walls anything remaining on the opposing team.

Both forms can obviously make use of pivoting, even if 30i may not want to do that as often because of its unavoidable weakness to Stealth Rock, although if we still want to avoid a pivot role for 30i, we probably should not give CAP 30 a pivot move at all (I'll repeat the older-gen Specs dry Baton Pass Sylveon example again for an example of an offensive pivot with a completely harmless, 0-priority pivot move).
 

Zetalz

formerly Zetasniper
is a Pre-Contributor
What kind of utility moves would each form make use of? What impacts do one form's proposed utility moves have on the other form?
Defog, Taunt & Status (not necessarily just Toxic) are the most obvious forms of utility for both forms. Defog I think is the most usable option for 30i as it can capitalize on it's offensive presence to force switches by removing rocks from the common grounds it checks. Both forms get pretty great value out of Taunt as a way to maintain pressure on fatter teams, while Toxic is just a generally great button to click in a lot of situations.

Given the boosted power of its STABs, does 30i need any coverage? If so, how does the coverage interact with Tinted Lens?
If 30i was to run any non-stab options there's really not much coverage that lets it do more than it's STABs do already, if anything 30i would like to use coverage slots for utility attacks like Knock, U-Turn, etc. In the instance of moves like that there's really not much to say, unresisted Knock might sound strong on paper but given it's non-STAB and most of the things it gets the TL boost on are already getting turbo-dunked on by our STABs I don't think there's too much concern on the damage front there.

What kind of coverage would 30b prefer? Are there any moves that have particular interactions with Stamina?
Body Press is move numero uno when it comes to Stamina interaction and does fit quite well with 30b as it stands, but given it's already been talked to death even before this stage I don't really have much more to add. The topic of other coverage I think is more interesting as at the moment I feel like the kind of coverage 30b would desire changes quite a bit depending on how it's stats come out. Obviously talking about that gets a bit polljumpy thougt so in an attempt to not do that I'll vaguely say that of any one option Fire coverage gives 30b the most wiggle room. A set of something like Flying-STAB, Poison-STAB/Body Press, Poison-STAB/Fire-coverage, Recovery I think is an ideal kind of build to shoot for.

Do the proposed coverage moves of each form have problematic implications with the other form?
The only conceivable way I can see this happening is if we chose to give both forms the same offensive bias but I think that has become incredibly unlikely at this stage. That said a problem I could see arising is having Knock available on both forms. As it stands 30b is looking to have most of it's checks be susceptible to it and while not a dealbreaker I can see it causing issues if those checks end up being more shaky than first thought. Again though, I feel like we're in a pretty good place where overlap of moves won't be causing us any issues.
 
What kind of utility moves would each form make use of? What impacts do one form's proposed utility moves have on the other form?
As I have mentioned previously, I think, that 30i will be an excellent hazard control.
While I have heard compelling arguments, that it might not be as reliable as a primary defogger, as it rather wants to throw out damage, its typing and knock off immunity as well as it’s offensive presebgive it a perfect matchup into almost all current hazard setters in S, A and B tiers barring Ttar:Tyranitar:,Astro:Astrolotl:and Tran:Heatran:.
Thus I believe providing (secondary) defog support for teams, that like more than one defogger but rarely have room to run them (think Life orb Weavile, Specs Kyurem or Blacephalon or even hail teams), is one form of utility, that is appreciated and will see use.
Options for hazard removal would be Defog, Rapid Spin and Court Change.
I do think, that of these Rapid Spin has the best synergy with its role and ability as it only removes hazards on its own side, while keeping them on the opponent’s field. Additionally it makes it harder for offensive mons to take advantage of the low tempo turn.
While we have ruled out set up bc it might become too strong, Flame orb Colossoil:Colossoil: which is an incredibly potent Wallbreaker is a good example of a balanced mon, that can set up but rarely becomes a sweeper.

I don’t really know if 30i would start running Cleric moves as it already is immune to Poison and running two healing options seems like it would sink a lot of momentum for a Wallbreaker, but on the other hand it can help mitigate burns for physical builds, so I think it might be a cool inclusion on physically inclined spreads.

Knock Off is obviously a big contender, as it helps in wearing down its own checks and those of other team members.

Other than that I think Status is something that will help it wear down its checks, as well as helping its teammates.

Taunt would also be an incredibly potent option but I think thisroad should only be taken if we find, that 30i is incapable of breaking the walls it’s supposed to.

I actually think that 30b might prefer 3 attacks sets as it otherwise lacks the coverage to beat especially steel type checks or would struggle to beat the fairies it wants to check.
If anything I think status and knock off will be an option that will help it wear down tanky switch ins.
But I also wouldn’t see it as a failure if 30b would start running entirely defensive sets with utility borrowed from 30is toolkit

Given the boosted power of its STABs, does 30i need any coverage? If so, how does the coverage interact with Tinted Lens?
With 30is item boosted and almost always at least neutral STABs, only a select few moves will have the Power to serve as viable coverage options.
Considering the mons it wants to hit and those, that are currently likely to take it on, these are the options, that Make a difference:
MovePokémon
PhysicalTriple Axel:Landorus-Therian::Garchomp::Hippowdon:
Earthquake:Heatran::Magnezone:
Close Combat/Superpower/
High Jump Kick
:Heatran::Melmetal::Ferrothorn::Magnezone:
Flare Blitz/Heat Crash:Corviknight::Scizor::Ferrothorn::Melmetal::Magnezone::Skarmory:
Power Whip:Hippowdon::Slowbro:
Megahorn:Slowbro:
For Special we have these options:
MovePokémon
SpecialBlizzard,(Ice Beam vs. Lando and Chomp):Landorus-Therian::Hippowdon::Garchomp:
Earthpower:Heatran::Magnezone:
Focus Blast:Heatran::Ferrothorn::Magnezone::Melmetal::Blissey::Tyranitar:
Fire Blast/Overheat:Corviknight::Scizor::Ferrothorn::Melmetal::Magnezone:
Leaf Storm:Slowking::Hippowdon:
Thunder:Corviknight::Toxapex::Slowking:
Hydro Pump:Landorus-Therian::Heatran::Hippowdon:
Even if they are capable of improving some match ups, most of these moves come with an increased opportunity cost as the power drop between a neutral STAB and one of these coverage moves on a neutral hit is almost like the difference between neutral and resisted hit. Additionally a lot of these moves come with reduced accuracy and low pp or power drops, making them much less desirable to click compared to our flying STABs.
Im not sure if the increased power is enough to make any of these moves pickable for a moveset. If anything I think Fire moves might work pretty well, as they have a good amount of additional mons they hit and are comparably spammable especially with tinted Lens.
 
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Here's something I've been thinking about since Tinted Lens + Flying typing was chosen. I think Hurricane is a poor STAB choice of Flying-type STAB from a project perspective. Tinted Lens Flying-type STAB is incredibly potent: basically every Pokemon except for Magnezone gets hit neutrally. Given that CAP30i has such the strong asset of unresisted Flying-type STAB, I think the key component to CAP30i being healthy is knowing what it is going to do. With a relatively accurate STAB, you know that if CAP30i is going to use its unresisted Flying-type STAB move, it's going to hit and do damage. In other words, I don't want the counterplay to CAP30i's strongest move to be "I hope Hurricane misses" or a balancing factor to CAP30i's creation to be "oh, but Hurricane will miss a lot." I just think it's going to be better for both sides of the field when CAP30i is on the field.
This doesnt make sense to me, Hurricane can afford to be considerably weaker to begin with when calcing on steel types like Corv and Melmetal and Skarm, and the counterplay can be things like switching to Slowbro-Galar and high spdef walls. Making the assumption that Hurricane needs to be so strong that it has no counterplay when it hits mons doesnt really fit a reasonable scope and itd be the same as saying "the only way to counter Brave Bird is letting it take kos every switchin and just die to recoil"
 

spoo

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What kind of utility moves would each form make use of? What impacts do one form's proposed utility moves have on the other form?
I really like Thunder Wave as status for 30i - I feel that in many ways it can be abused as a weaker, more conditional form of Taunt, in that you can effectively use Thunder Wave to fish for paras on Pokemon like Corv/Pex in order to beat them 1v1. As for Taunt itself, this is absolutely an option that would affect our power level going forward, but that's not necessarily a bad thing; a Pokemon like Taunt + Heat Wave/Knock/Cane Tornadus-T has already shown us that Taunt on this kind of build doesn't have to be inherently broken. It's an option I'm wary of, but I think we could absolutely make it work, and frankly I think that 30i could use a clear high-powered option at this stage. Defog is a decent final option on both 30i/30b, although I'm not as enthusiastic about it as other things. I think 30i doesn't make an ideal hazard remover given its weakness to Rock, and while 30b still matches up quite nicely into many hazard setters, the mon feels like it will struggle a bit with moveslots as is. I don't think any of these utility options would severely impact the other forme too much.

Given the boosted power of its STABs, does 30i need any coverage? If so, how does the coverage interact with Tinted Lens?
Honestly no. The only coverage I could conceive this running is Knock Off, though that's not something I want to advocate for either. Otherwise I imagine we will be running mono flying / dual stabs.

What kind of coverage would 30b prefer? Are there any moves that have particular interactions with Stamina?
The obvious answer here is Body Press. This is a great tool against Pokemon like Heatran and Melmetal that we already match up well against, and is the single most interactive option with Stamina that we could give out. I'd also really like to advocate for Ice-type coverage on 30b. Looking at the Pokemon that we have good matchups against due to Stamina + our typing (almost every Ground-type and many Grass-types), as well as Pokemon that we are capable of potentially checking through our stat spread (namely Dragapult, potentially other dragons), Ice coverage slots into our moveset quite comfortably, as well as having incredible synergy with Body Press + our STAB options. In general, powerful coverage options such as Ice feel really great on 30b as alternative ways to manufacture an offensive presence without necessarily pumping its offensive stats super high.

Do the proposed coverage moves of each form have problematic implications with the other form?
30i Could potentially run the Ice-type move(s) intended for 30b, but I don't see that as too problematic at the end of the day. It really only impacts the Garchomp and Landorus-T matchup, but I doubt 30i will be consistently taking Garchomp on anyways, and the Landorus-T matchup should already be one we trivially win. Maybe 30b would run Knock if we give it out but I don't really see it tbh.
 
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