CAP 30 - Part 9 - Stat Limits Discussion

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Tadasuke

Tuh-dah-skay
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CAP 30 So Far

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This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is Lasen, so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. Lasen will be deciding the stat limits for CAP 30 at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.

These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 30. We will look at limits to CAP 30's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.

This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, we strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.

Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)
The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.​
Physical Sweepiness (PS)
The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.​
Special Tankiness (ST)
The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.​
Special Sweepiness (SS)
The rating of the Pokémon's special offense​

A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found here. To use it for yourself, create an editable copy with File > Make a copy. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice and Google Sheets are free.

If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then we suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!
 
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Lasen

Name's Pietre
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Hello everyone! I am very happy to be leading our stats stage. The process has been extremely cool to follow thus far and I hope that the Stat Limits Discussion follows suit. As I'm the only European on the TLT, the times that things go up or down may be a little bit odd but I hope you can bear with me!

Before moving on, I'd like to remind you that Base Stat Limits isn't the same as Base Stats, so if you're unfamiliar with the difference you should give the OP another read before posting here so you can understand what Stat Limits and BSR are.

Another important thing is deciding the order of operations, seeing how we have two formes to work with. I have decided we should work on the separately and start with 30b. Discussion on 30i's Stat Limits and BSR will follow soon.

As we're working with two formes, it's important to reach a consensus on what direction we want this project to be taken before jumping into Stat Limits as well. I've come up with a few questions to build up to our eventual discussion of BSRs and limits.

1. Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?

2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?

3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?
 

MrDollSteak

CAP 1v1 me IRL
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Oh boy stats!

1. Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?

I think that CAP 30b would likely benefit from primarily being a special attacker due to the power, reliability and utility of Sludge Bomb, especially considering that Body Press can effectively allow us to run a "mixed" set without investment.

2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is going to be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?


I think there are merits to both approaches. Starting off as specially bulky with average bulk means that we can only come in on special attacks or really weak or resisted physical attacks. I would argue this ensures that we are using Stamina to its full potential, as it becomes the main tool for us to take on physical attacks, whereas if we started physically bulky they'd likely swap before we could make use of the Stamina boosts and bring in Special attackers. That said, if we're really specially bulky, it might mean we don't have enough consistent counterplay.

3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?


I don't think we realistically need to be all that fast, especially if we're aimcing to make use of Roost and have Stamina soak up hits. Heatran is probably the main Pokemon we want to outspeed in order to make use of the Stamina boosts for Body Press to win the matchup. Things like Garchomp and Landorus-T for example will lose regardless of our speed tier, and much faster and we end up reversing some of our key offensive checks and counters in Weavile and Syclant.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
I need to calc stuff for Question 2 so I'll save it for later.

1. Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?
Based in part by our threats list I believe it makes the most sense for 30b to be special, although Body Press technically makes it mixed. A lot of our switch ins from the threats list tend to be more physical bulky as opposed to specially (the big ones being Hippowdon and Landorus-T) so leaning into the special side makes it easier to address them. There is also the fact that Sludge Bomb is a really great move for 30b due to the poison chance, and being able to leverage that as a tool would be great.

3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?
It's a pretty broad range but I think 80-100 is gonna be our butter zone here. I agree with MDS that at the very least we should be outspeeding Heatran since it's a pretty important Pokemon and Body Press does give us the ability to win against it if we are faster. It's a tougher bar but I think outspeeding Kyurem could be a solid investment as well since it'd allow us to turn that matchup a bit more in our favor especially since we have Body Press. Anything faster than say Garchomp I don't think is particularly worth it and anything faster than Syclant could make counter play against 30b difficult.
 
1. Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?
I Believe that 30b would fit a special bias better. Brave Bird recoil contradicts the way it wants to play, dishing out hits while staying healthy as long as possible and Gunk Shot having immunities vs itself on top of being inaccurate is not optimal. At the same time Drill Peck is just too weak, as 30b still is supposed to hit fairly hard. Hurricane even with its lower accuracy is it’s best flying STAB for this kind of play. I actually think that the miss chance will help stamina come into play more often, as it sometimes incentivizes staying in and try again.
Sludge bomb is also the most consistent poison move.
Additionally we’ve identified ice beam as a generally good coverage option, that hits ground types, which obviously needs a special bias. Fire type moves are also more consistent on the special side.
All in all Special moves seem more consistent for 30b.
2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?
I think, that the role of a tank technically wants a good amount of bulk at least on one defense.
Given it’s access to stamina though I think we can get away with less bulk, as even very moderate spreads around 85/85 physical defense are able to take on most physical attackers, except really strong super effective hits, with the aid of stamina’s boost. Considering, that 30b has the ability to switch in on a resisted hit (thanks to its great defensive typing) and gain a boost while healing off damage, means, that even these strong super effective hits might be unable to break 30b.
Even with only 70/65+ fully invested defenses 30b would be able to tank through Choice Band Syclants Icicle Crash, if it’s at full health with 1 boost and doesn’t get flinched.

252 Atk Choice Band Syclant Icicle Crash vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Crobat: 242-288 (70.3 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Syclant Icicle Crash vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Crobat: 182-216 (52.9 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(84-50+63-50=47)after the second turn 30b starts out roosting the damage of icicle crash.

These are a lot of ifs, but it goes to show, that physical attackers will have trouble to break through 30b. Which is why I think it’s crucial, that solid Special attacking counterplay exists.
I think at the very least 30b should be unable to roost off damage from attackers like Slowking (Galar) and Tapu Koko.
3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?
I think one could argue for everything from blazing fast to super slow.
I think how much speed we’re willing to give, depends a lot on bulk and offensive power. Ultimately I think being slower than Modest Tapu Lele should be a good starting point for bulky spreads, whereas I don’t see an issue with even outspeeding Weavile, if the spread is less bulky overall.
I would probably be happier with a slower spread as having to tank a hit first generally will provide more interactive play with 30bs ability and also fits the role of a tank better.
 
1. Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?
30b is Phys All Day, every day. HDB, Recovery, Boosting and boosting mitigates Brave Bird recovery and Gunk Shot negatives, while also stacking Body Press stages for Steel type switch-ins attempting to predict Poison.

2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?

With recovery, Def needs to be prioritized over SpD. Running SpD encourages AVest if it gets access to Draining. Stamina stacking with high SpDef is a concern, meaning you need to outspeed, knock off and hit hard Specially to counter. I'm on a break at work so cant run numbers, but the assumption should be that we are at 75% HP at all times unless HDB is the only item 30b is being build around (in which case we are screwed if knocked).

[will finish thoughts later]
 
1. Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?
I agree with the others that a special bias (+ Body Press) is a good direction for 30b. Our special kit is really solid, and a physical one would come with tradeoffs like having to worry more about burn and contact damage, recoil, etc., which isn't ideal.

2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?
3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?
I'm combining these questions because they're intimately connected. I believe we should be quite fat and very slow. Obviously I can see an argument for a fast but less bulky mon; slow mons are inherently worse in almost all circumstances. However, less speed allows us the freedom to have more bulk (and potentially power). I believe our role, our ability, and the way these things synergize with our typing point clearly to a slow, bulky attacker. A quintessential tank is meant to tank hits and hit back hard, not outspeed and KO things and come out unscathed. Stamina only activates on being hit. I think we should allow ourselves to actually take hits. Can we make a fast tank / fast Stamina abuser? Sure, but I believe that's the "generically good" approach. The slow, fat approach interacts in much more interesting ways with the choices we've made thus far.

So: I think, ideally, we should have moderately good physical bulk and quite good special bulk. Low speed in my opinion opens the door to very solid bulk for us. If we have poor physical bulk, we become entirely reliant on Stamina to check things, so strong initial hits become scary. A low defense stat also means Body Press, which has been widely discussed as a potential coverage option, becomes unreliable. Obviously this can be addressed with low HP and high Defense, but this has potential implications for 30i. More special bulk allows us to take neutral hits from mons like Dragapult and Heatran better, which I think is potentially pretty valuable, and again synergizes well with our role as a tank.

For speed tiers: I don't think there's much we inherently have to outspeed. I think we can absolutely take a Glowking / Melmetal approach and tank some hits instead.
 
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2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?
In my eyes, the best route for 30b to go for would be decent physical bulk paired with good(but not excellent) special bulk. While good physical bulk and poor special bulk would allow for specified strengths and weaknesses, it also has the issue of making Stamina more redundant imo. While stamina will still have use, mainly in using Body Press, a strong starting physical defense will make Stamina a nice extra addition, as opposed to a core part of the pokemons identity. A specially defensive bias would allow 30b a unique playstyle with Stamina, allowing it to have strength over special attackers while potentially being able to overcome physical attackers, even if it can't switch directly in on them. That being said, it's also important that its not too specially bulky, as too much strength in that department could cause it to easily spiral out of control once it gets a few Stamina boosts.

3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?
Truthfully, would agree with Vile and Base here that 30b should be bulkier and slower. While there may be some way to make a fast tank, the amount of fine tuning it would take in the stat department in order to make sure the pokemon not only fulfills its role, but is also not overpowered or incredibly overtuned seems taxing for a process such as this. A high speed paired with good defenses and a strong attack stat, combined with the ability to raise our defense easily with Stamina, also has the potential to negatively compete with 30i, whose lack of item choice means that 30i could outclass it due to better flexibility and staying power. Lower speed allows for a greater defensive bulk while still giving the pokemon weaknesses that it can fall victim to.
 
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dex

As far as I know, I'm immortal
is a Pre-Contributor
1. Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?

30b should absolutely be a special attacker. I want to focus on the STAB options. Sludge Bomb is simply better than Poison Jab and Gunk Shot from a defensive perspective and it’s a very spammable move. Hurricane is better than Brave Bird due to having no recoil, reinforcing the defensive aspect of 30b. I don’t see a whole lot of value in a mixed attacker since 30b will most likely have access to a strong

2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?


30b benefits greatly from having a higher Special Defense than Defense. This follows the same logic of CM boosters in that they invest in physical defense in order to achieve an overall great level of bulk.

3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?


I think I’m somewhat alone in this regard, but 30b actually would enjoy a higher speed tier. I think being outsped by base 100s is fine, but it gains a lot from outspeeding Jumbao and Tapu Lele, for instance. I think slower spreads are totally fine, but Speed is quite helpful and we shouldn’t be pigeonholed into a slower limit.
 
Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?
I’m gonna agree with the vast majority of the others here and say 30b should be a special attacker. This Pokémon running the likes of Brave Bird runs counter to what it wants to achieve; if you take recoil by acting as a tank, you’ll be taking fewer hits, which runs directly counter to its role as a tank, even with Stamina. Additionally, Body Press allows 30b to basically go “mixed” without even needing significant investment, depending on our stats. Therefore, there is no real benefit to being physical on 30b.
What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?
I frankly don’t have a good answer for the first question, but I do believe it would be better and more interesting to have a higher Special Defense. Simply put, Stamina boosts our Defense, and so a massive base stat is not as necessary. With that being said, I absolutely do not believe our initial physical bulk should be so pitiful to where we cannot come in on physical attacks at all, but we do not need absurd physical bulk by any means thanks to Stamina.
With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?
There are really three Pokémon I can see us wanting to aim for in terms of benchmarks regarding speed tiers: Arghonaut, Heatran and Kyurem. Argh isn’t an active threat to 30b like the other two, but Arghonaut is to me important as the threat of a Flying move could deter it from clicking Knock Off or setting a layer of Spikes on us. Heatran is slightly more threatening, as we are neutral to Magma Storm; outspeeding Heatran allows us to more easily switch into Heatran, especially if we are able to outdamage Magma Storm with Body Press or outheal it with recovery, given enough bulk. Kyurem is the shakiest, as even with large amounts of special bulk we are basically crippled if not OHKOed by Ice Beam, so we aren’t going to be switching in on it any time soon. However, outspeeding Kyurem does mean it cannot necessarily switch in for free, depending on our stats. Heatran’s current set clocks in at 220 speed, while Kyurem is at 289 when running Specs. At base 75 (no investment) base 77 (with 120 EVs in Speed) and base 95 (max neutral nature) respectively, I feel that realistically 30b has three choices.

1. Be outsped by all three Pokémon.
2. Outspeed Arghonaut, but not Heatran and Kyurem.
3. Outspeed Arghonaut and Heatran, but not Kyurem.
4. Outspeed all three Pokémon.

I believe all four possibilities should have room to exist in stats. In a sense, these are the four levels of speed 30b can realistically hit. Obviously, the faster 30b is, the weaker and/or less bulky it will be (in theory). I have my personal preferences, but they’re not important right now; all four options have validity for 30b. People have mentioned that being extremely slow will give us more room for a bulkier Pokémon, while others have mentioned outspeeding certain Pokémon we can pressure like Tapu Lele can do wonders for the offensive pressure 30b can place on teams. As such, I feel the best solution is to have limits that generally place the speed ceiling around outspeeding the likes of Kyurem or Tapu Lele, but not discouraging slower spreads from existing either. Outspeeding Jumbao is nice I suppose, but considering its best set is Scarf rn I’m not sure how plausible 30b outpacing Jumbao is, especially considering how we are weak to rocks and therefore are likely just gonna stick to boots for items.
 
I've haven't been contributing to the competitive side of this CAP, but I do have a few things to add here.
1. Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?
I'm with everyone else here on making 30b a special attacker. While Brave Bird is more consistent than Hurricane, suffering from recoil damage would be counterproductive since 30b wants to be sponging hits. Having BB in tandem with Gunk Shot also means that both of our STAB options have noticeable detriments (and I really don't think Drill Peck/Poison Jab/Cross Poison is gonna hit hard unless if we have Kyurem-B level Attack or have attained an SD or two).

Sludge Bomb honestly is preferable over Gunk Shot, it's much more reliable and it's got a real boon with its poison chance, making it even easier to wear down foes. Since Body Press is largely just coverage and should always hit hard after enough Stamina boosts anyway, 30b does not need a high Attack stat, so we should focus on making it specially offensive.

2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?
I actually think we should have mixed bulk, perhaps slightly leaning towards one Defense stat over the other. I say this because Stamina already makes this mon a physically defensive beast, or at least it should be tough to break after just one Stamina boost, so I don't believe we need a ton of physical Defense. But we still obviously need some so we can switch in and beat physical attackers in the first place. If 30b has enough Sp. Def, Heatran should be a comfy switch-in no problem. Since I'm advocating for mixed bulk, I doubt 30b will have enough Sp. Def to tank hits from Specs Dragapult in this case, but being a Tran switch-in in addition to still reliably handling physical attackers would work well for 30b imo.

3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?
I believe 30b should be in a low to medium Speed tier. Designing a fast tank would be pain, and I see no need for it. If we're talking about outpacing the mons we want 30b to check or counter: Jumbao can't touch 30b at all; while everything else requires coverage to fight back, which is obviously still a risk, but not enough of a risk to require outpacing them. Lower Speed also incentives sponging hits for Stamina.

I'm in agreement with MDS that being able to outspeed Tran would make it much easier to beat with Body Press + healing. Outpacing Tran will also allow 30b to outpace Arghonaut (which Reviloja mentioned) so we can nail that with Hurricane before it can Knock us Off (barring we miss lol).
 
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Brambane

burn the midnight oil
is a Contributor Alumnus
General consensus of far for question 1 seems to be special attacker, and I am not rocking the boat here. Its the most synergistic with Body Press, Sludge Bomb gud, and has the better coverage options.

2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?

3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?

For physical bulkiness, we are operating with both defensive and offensive benchmarks thanks to Body Press. Stamina lets us get away with lower immediate Defense and still ramp up to a physical tank eventually, but I would prefer something with more immediate defensive/offensive presence at +1. Bare minimum offensively would be 2HKOing Colossoil and Kartana with +1 Body Press without any EV investment; they are the lowest hanging fruit offensive physical attackers for us that aren't weak to Poison/Flying STABs (approximately 95 base Def for reference.) If you want to hit these two offensive benchmark with EVs, then you either need to go all-in on being a physical tank or have high enough/low enough stats elsewhere that EV investment isn't required to be viable. Physical bulk can be tweaked also by lowering or raising HP; Body Press calcs make things more interesting, utilize those offensive calcs effectively with your spread. Very much enjoying theorycrafting spreads because of it.

As for the other stats think 30b is a perfect project to apply the "want three, pick two" decision matrix. In business or development, its speed, cost, and quality. In the case of 30b, its Special Attack, Speed, and Special Defense. I do firmly believe we need to have some kind of innate weakness built into stats for 30b. I don't really care which combination we go with; they all seem viable to me. Bare minimum for Speed is capacity to outspeed Revenankh if we want to (holy shit talking about Rev in a CAP process, what is this.) I am not opposed to anything higher; I am not even opposed to outspeed Pult. High Speed is a viable pathway for us so long as we hamstring SpD or SpA purposefully. Heatran and Scarf Fini Hydro Pump would be a solid benchmarks for our SpD if we decide for good special tankiness.
 
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1. Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?

Basically agree with what most others have been saying, special looks better for 30b. Brave-bird recoil limits its ability to tank hits, while the poison/confuse chance on Sludge Bomb and Hurricane are really nice on a mon that aims to stay in on the opponent and get off a decent number of attacks. Pair also pair really nicely with Body Press, both in terms of hitting steels and giving us a pseudo-mixed attacker.

2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?


Again largely gonna agree with what everyone else has posted. I think that fairly balanced bulk that leans towards spdef would be best. We still want a decent PhysDef so that Body Press isn't reliant on multiple boost before it starts dealing good damage. We also may not want too low of an HP stat, as forms typically share the same HP and we don't wanna screw 30i over with a low HP stat (not that we're locked into this as far as I know, but it's worth considering). For Special Bulk, I'd say we want to be at the level where we can sponge common strong neutral attacks (Pult's Shadow Ball, Heatran's Magma Storm, etc), while still being 2hko'd by supereffective special hits from the likes of Kyurem, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele etc. This allows us to pick up Stamina boosts fairly easily without becoming unkillable after gaining those boosts.

3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?

Personally I like the idea of really leaning into the tank role, with strong SpA and bulk but poor speed. That said, I think there's a pretty wide range of viable speed tiers to hit that other posters have brought up. So long as we balance higher speeds out with less bulk/attacking power it shouldn't be a problem. That said, we don't to be so fast that we end up either a) overpowered or b) dropping so much bulk/offensive pressure that we're no longer fulfilling the tank role.

EDIT: just to clarify I'm not saying that we can't make a fast tank, that's a viable route that Zetalz make a good case for below. I was just making the point that we do have to balance out higher speeds by dropping bulk or offensive power, and at some point this means we aren't really a tank anymore (even with a generous interpretation of the role). It's also worth noting that while there haven't been many truly fast CAPs, there also haven't been many truly slow CAPs either, and Melmetal is really the only archetypal tank around (exceptionally bulky and hard hitting but very slow), so there's plenty of reason to go the slow route as well.
 
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Zetalz

formerly Zetasniper
is a Pre-Contributor
short-ish post cuz I got a huge migraine
1. Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?
Adding to the special bias bandwagon not much to say that hasn't already been said. Hurricane might be a lil stinky but it's better in the long run.
2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?
30b's resistances + Stamina gives it a fair amount more leeway when it comes to Defense. Generally of the same mind as Brambane that decent but not incredible physical bulk is very passable and gives a bit more room for strength in other areas. SpDef is always a good investment especially given our typing but Speed is also a fun direction to dump into which I'll go into below.
3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?
This is where I think my opinion diverges heavily from most others. If you're a discord user you might know I've been a proponent for a very fast 30b for a while now but haven't really explained in depth why I think it's such a fun direction to go down. I know the initial reaction a lot of users will have to the idea of fast 30b is something along the lines of "you're not really a tank if you're outspeeding a bunch of things/you don't take hits when you're faster". I think this is a flawed mindset. To say that 30b wouldn't be a true tank if it takes overall less hits misses the mark on what makes a viable Tank.

A Tank does not have to take every single hit it possibly can to be considered a tank. A viable Tank is something that can take enough hits while leveraging it's power (or in this example power+speed tier) to threaten back. I think people have gotten a bit absorbed in the literal definition of the role and lose the forest for the trees in a sense. A Tank's ability to take hits is a combination of it's resistances, bulk, and in our case also ability. The fact of the matter is that with Poison/Flying's resistances affording good switchin opportunities + how ridiculously easy it is to get at least 1 Stamina boost on predicted U-turns, moonblasts, etc. 30b is going to be used to tank hits pretty much no matter what direction we go down, even with a fast spread that would have overall less bulk than a slow one.

The speed tier I've been eyeballing the most for this idea is something in the 120-ish range, something that preserves our offensive checks like :syclant:, :weavile: & :tapu koko: while giving it more of a leg up vs things like :astrolotl:, :garchomp: & possibly :tornadus-therian: (also incidentally makes it an okay :cawmodore: check with Fire coverage lol). By nature of having less bulk to work with it does make things like :heatran: a tougher MU but I think that's fine, there's always going to be give and take when deciding on a spread. Overall I think our STABs + coverage heavily benefit from a higher speed tier, and 30b can still function as a viable Tank even with less overall bulk backing it up.

Now I'm not saying that going down the traditional Tank route wouldn't be viable, far form it, but there is a real opportunity here to do something different and fun. There hasn't been a truly fast CAP in a long time (the 'fast' caps have been getting progressively slower since Strata), and I'd hate to see the opportunity squandered by taking the most stereotypical direction of our intended role as possible when it's very possible to take it in this kind of direction without sacrificing the core principles of being a Tank.

tl;dr: Fast 30b is good and can still be considered a tank, free the CAP project from the shackles of the cursed 90s speed tier.


Holy shit guess I lied about that being a short post LOL. Also forgive if I missed any crucial words or if anything seems jumbled, as I said I have a giant migraine while writing this but still wanted to get my thoughts out before we moved on.
 

quziel

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Short post:

I agree with Brambane:

We should pick 2 between SpA / SpDef / Spe. I can see spreads that are incredibly fast (up to 120) being very valid if they either dump spA or spdef (like 70 for one of them). The danger is really when we have good spdef (bulk equal to clef) with good SpA and good Spe. Basically I want us to have relatively high SS limits, average STank (100 ish), and to set our BSR fairly low to ensure that this mon isn't an overall monster. I'd also request again for us to have a relatively high T value because this mon is going to excel over very drawn out sequences, so its speed factor isn't incredibly important.

More Broadly I think we should consider either fast with average SpA and lowish spdef, average or low speed with giant def and lowish spdef, or average or low speed with average def and good but not great spdef.

Also please let people to set X for dump stat to help the other forme out.
 
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snake_rattler

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I think CAP30b should be a special attacker.

After reading this thread, I think this has been the best way to view CAP30b's stat spread variations:

As for the other stats think 30b is a perfect project to apply the "want three, pick two" decision matrix. In business or development, its speed, cost, and quality. In the case of 30b, its Special Attack, Speed, and Special Defense.
CAP30b's Defense should be decent enough to take advantage of Body Press, but beyond that, it should have a weakness in its SpA, Speed, or SpD. Here's how I see these playing out, in no particular order:
  • By choosing SpA + SpD, we can make a classic tank route: powerful and bulky but vulnerable due to its speed. We're set up very well to have great 3-move coverage between CAP30b's STABs and Body Press, especially factoring in potential coverage from our optional defining moves, so that we have room for recovery.
  • With SpA + Speed, it's a faster Pokemon that can tank physical hits well and can use its Speed to return hits hard hits with its special attacks or Body Press rather than its bulk. I'm imagining a build similar to Kartana (which has a high offense stat, good speed stat, and an awful SpD stat) but with a less extreme with the difference between CAP30b's higher Special Attack stat and its lower Special Defense stat. While you might not classify Kartana as a "tank," Stamina + reliable recovery means that CAP30b would play much more like a tank, even with a lower Special Defense stat.
  • With SpD + Speed, we make an interesting "fast wall." While usually fast walls are a bit awkward (especially when it comes to EV investment), with Stamina, CAP30b can tank hits and then use its Speed to use recovery moves and return damage with boosted Body Presses. It can also pick off weakened foes with its special attacks - I think Sludge Bomb is a good move to due to having the Poison chance. Ultimately though, its main form of damage will be Body Press.
Overall, I think any of these three paths will fit the concept. I am a bit partial to the spreads that prioritize speed because it's been a long time since we've made a "very fast" Pokemon, but I'm also a fan of slow tanks too. Overall, I think we should let CAP30b's stat spread to be flexible - that is, set high individual PT/SS/ST ratings and a restrictive overall BSR so that we actually enforce the "want three, pick two" triangle.
 

Estronic

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In a seemingly unfortunate scenario where everything I want to say has been said already, snake_rattler gave me the wonderful idea on commenting on the three proposed pathways described in his post.

SpA + SpD definitely is the most flexible route when it comes to the desire to run an additional coverage move alongside Body Press. Ice coverage would most likely be the most useful one, but running Fire coverage or another STAB option in a Flying-type move still has some merit for running them; Fire coverage would most likely give a stronger option against Steel-types while still having an option for Heatran in Body Press, while running Hurricane for another STAB move is an option if you want to prioritize damage over consistency in Sludge Bomb. Unfortunately, though, other moves besides coverage is harder to justify, since 30b would only have one attack to take advantage of its Special Attack. Its Speed would probably need to be relatively low as well so 30b can't easily roll over walls because it's faster; this general pathway already really gives it a good advantage in forcing certain Pokemon to either switch out or try to wear it down, and in the end, 30b would most likely benefit from either interaction.

With SpA + Spe, like snake mentioned, I can see 30b as a less extreme special attacking Kartana that could somewhat offer to run utility moves a little more. It would still probably prefer running an additional coverage move, but I don't think moves like Rapid Spin and Toxic automatically become unaffordable to run, forcing out certain Pokemon for 30b to either get a free turn to clear entry hazards or cripple a likely check to switch in, respectively. I also potentially think that with this route, 30b would be able to be much more flexible with its item; besides Heavy-Duty Boots, perhaps it can work around a Choice Scarf set where it can late-game clean up while still being able to take some hits incase it doesn't cleanly KO some targets, for example. This definitely could be just a stretch, but it's interesting to think about, at least.

SpD + Spe is definitely the most flexible pathway for 30b, pretty much opening it up to run any utility move alongside its core three moves for very likely success no matter what. Coverage moves, may not do as much damage to its targets, but getting chip on the targets that are relevant for the respective coverage move is always good for 30b and its team in the long run. Thunder Wave becomes more justifiable for its projected low Speed, Toxic will always be great for crippling switch-ins, and Rapid Spin becomes more useful for boosting its Speed alongside clearing entry hazards. In a sense, it'll be an overall better all-rounder than the other two pathways.

tl;dr:
- SpA + SpD let's 30b be flexible in choosing what Pokemon it wants to hit with its one flexible slot for a coverage move, though running anything else in that slot would seem like a waste of its good Special Attack.
- SpA + Spe let's 30b potentially act as a much tamer variation of Kartana and could also potentially afford to run more unique sets like a late-game cleaner that can tank at least some hits with a Choice Scarf.
- SpD + Spe doesn't make 30b excel is anything in particular, but it allows it run any move, coverage or utility, in its one flexible moveslot for equal success in different aspects depending on the move chosen.

Sorry if this is a bit messy; I had only a little less than a hour to crank this out, and I wanted to at least comment on something before the next discussion slate.
 

Brambane

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Tiny post, but an advantage and direction that high Speed/SpDef 30b gives us is being able to utilize fast Roost to offset three of our weaknesses in exchange for gaining one. Obviously there are different speed benchmarks, but a fast Pokemon that can Roost on i.e. Krilowatt Volt Switch or Kyurem Freeze-Dry for minimal damage would be, as the kids say, tubular. Building around the interaction of 30b's Speed and Roost is another layer of depth and consideration for stat submitters.
 

snake_rattler

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SpD + Spe is definitely the most flexible pathway for 30b, pretty much opening it up to run any utility move alongside its core three moves for very likely success no matter what. Coverage moves, may not do as much damage to its targets, but getting chip on the targets that are relevant for the respective coverage move is always good for 30b and its team in the long run. Thunder Wave becomes more justifiable for its projected low Speed, Toxic will always be great for crippling switch-ins, and Rapid Spin becomes more useful for boosting its Speed alongside clearing entry hazards. In a sense, it'll be an overall better all-rounder than the other two pathways.
Tiny post, but an advantage and direction that high Speed/SpDef 30b gives us is being able to utilize fast Roost to offset three of our weaknesses in exchange for gaining one. Obviously there are different speed benchmarks, but a fast Pokemon that can Roost on i.e. Krilowatt Volt Switch or Kyurem Freeze-Dry for minimal damage would be, as the kids say, tubular. Building around the interaction of 30b's Speed and Roost is another layer of depth and consideration for stat submitters.
This isn't really a criticism of these two posts, but I do want to emphasize that with the SpD/Spe route, it should be assumed that CAP30b isn't going to be hitting very hard outside of boosted Body Press. For the other two routes that emphasize SpA, we should imagine some pretty hefty hits from STAB special attacks (or other potential coverage). However, for this route in particular, CAP30b will be a lot more passive, relying on utility/status (including Sludge Bomb poison) and Stamina boosts for Body Press.

Basically, I caution imagining CAP30b with high Special Defense and Speed without specifically imagining that CAP30b will ALSO be quite weak offensively due to lower Special Attack. After all, if we don't specifically imagine the Special Attack being weak, then we're not building with "want three / build two" philosophy.

With that being said, while I think the SpD/Spe is a certainly viable path, I believe that I will be working with either the SpA/SpD or SpA/Spe routes when I make a stat spread, assuming we move forward with this model. At the moment, I think I'm more interested in these builds.
 
I believe we should emphasize Special Attack and Special Defense. Given our status as a tank, we should be able to hit hard and tank hits. Stamina allows us leeway with our Defense Stat, so the focus should be on offense and special bulk. Sludge Bomb high power and status chance fits nicely with our offense/defense focus, so special will work better than physical in the long run.

I am against focusing on high Sp. def / speed. For us to be a tank, we want to be able to hit hard, but if we're running a set like max HP max Speed we won't be investing in an offense stat. Assuming we follow the generally agreed upon Brambane method of choosing 2 stats, we won't have a high enough offense stat to deal significant damage uninvested. While it is true that accumulating Stamina boosts will increase the power of Body Press over time, this is a slow and less direct method of dealing damage that I'd rather not focus on (it's an 80 BP non-stab uninvested move, after all).

There are also very few competitive Pokémon with very high speed that don't invest in it, so the argument that it allows us higher uninvested speed and more room to invest in bulk is flawed. If our highest stat is speed we'll be investing in it, even if that wasn't the intention. As such I believe this is not a route we should take.

Edit: I want to clarify that I don't think investing in speed at all is bad. I think that giving 30b high speed for the sake of fully investing in bulk (and not investing in that high speed) is unrealistic and not an approach we should take.

Edit 2: Added some more of reasoning to not do speed investment
 
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The conversation has kind of drifted away from this, but I just wanted to mention that high base Defense is a near essential aspect of 30b in my eyes. While it is true that accumulating boosts can patch up low Defense from a defensive standpoint, Body Press complements our Poison/Flying STABs so effectively that leveraging immediate power with Body Press is necessary for us to be an effective tank. Although coverage options are on the table, I believe that leveraging Body Press offensively is generally more engaging and is the best realization of optimizing Stamina. Without a high defense stat, a boosted Body Press is still a mediocre 80 BP move that can't immediately threaten mons such as Heatran or Melmetal.

That being said, I fear the power that focusing on SpA/SpD offers us. Tanks specialize in trading hits against opponents, but our access to 50% recovery and Toxic Immunity means that going this route puts a lot of limitations on us. The two most notable tanks in the meta right now are Melmetal and Buzzwole; Melmetal's weakness comes from its lack of reliable recovery and Buzzwole lacks Special Defense and is susceptible to Toxic. 30b has neither of these weaknesses. Outside of defensive checks, it feels like the only mons that can reliably threaten OHKOs on 30b are Tapu Lele and Kyurem, which I'm not personally too fond of. As such, a focus on SpA/SpD puts us in a scary position where we can trade positively into most physical and special attackers alike, find an opportunity to heal, and then continue trading.

This fear carries over to the SpD/Spe route, but overall I am far less concerned here. Without a proper SpA stat, 30b is less able to trade hits as reliably, and its overall passivity means that it won't be making as much progress as it would otherwise, making the potential unkillableness less of an issue. The only problem is that this kind of strays away from fulfilling the role of a Tank, which probably isn't the most desirable for our purposes.

Then, I do find a lot of merit through focusing on Spa/Spe. This route in particular is most engaging to me because I feel it best utilizes Stamina because of how it mainly relies on Stamina to fulfill the role of a tank versus its sheer bulk alone. Theoretically, 30b would be able to function as a solid Special fastmon while leveraging its Tankiness against physical threats, while also leaving SpD as a built-in weakness to ensure that 30b doesn't snowball out of control. This unprecedented playstyle makes this route really interesting and I really hope it's how we decide to go.
 
Should CAP 30b be a physical or special attacker? What are the pros and cons of each offensive bias with respect to current metagame trends? Is there merit to making it a mixed attacker?


As isn't surprising to anyone that's read my previous posts, I really, really, REALLY think that CAP30b needs to be a special attacker.
Special attacks +Body Press is phenomenal, being a limited form of mixed offensive capabilities. I'm extremely supportive of making 30B specially focused when it comes to offense, in large part due to a specially-focused 30i being reliant on Hurricane for a consistent Flying STAB. That said, I think our focus on 30B should be in HP, Defense, SpAtk and Speed. With the latter considered below, i would like to suggest an SS range of 125-135. Given the Giratina framework, I've been assuming that CAP30 will be a Legendary and have an appropriate BST ranging at 550 (Urshifu precedent) or 600. With that spread, we will be capable of hitting the right numbers to check the mons we're supposed to.



2. What amount of bulk is necessary for 30b to be successful in its role?
Given that Stamina is gonna be boosting our defenses should we aim for high physical Defense? or better Special Defense to make it more balanced defensively?


I strongly think a very high HP (140+) stat paired with good defence (80-105) is ideal to use Stamina effectively. HP will be the biggest determinant of our survivability when we are factoring Stamina, so I think it will be more important. I feel most comfortable giving 30b between 125-135 PT and <60 ST. Special attacks should be considered as an Achilles' Heel for balancing considerations. I am strongly against "balancing" defenses and making this mon too difficult to take down, especially because of how HP stats affect general bulk. We already fulfill a tank role with high defense and Stamina and strong Special offensive capabilities. While Krilowatt is a good example for using HP to maximise defensive bulk, I am very strongly against its balanced approach to special bulk. We have the opportunity to create a really unique tank option that takes defensive hits and strikes specially. Given how most Pokemon favour either side of the split, I think going this route would make 30b a fascinating tank option with really neat meta-relevant matchups.


3. With regards to our Speed, what Speed Tier should we aim to hit? What can we afford to be outsped by?

I am going to cut against the grain with Zetalz and dex and suggest 30B have a higher speed stat to switch in to Garchomp completely. But I think it would be nice to go so far as outspeeding Astrolotl. My ideal range would be 115-122 to also allow 30B to potentially check Cawmadore and Tornadus-T.


Having a really average attacking stat would be key to draining some stat points from other stats if we go with 600 BST, making sure it's not enough to be relevant in any calculations.
 

Brambane

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I 95% agree with the sentiment of CAP30b being special attacker, but there is one scenario where leaning physical might be beneficial to us that we shouldn't really ignore. The below calcs use base 90 Atk/SpA respectively.

0 Atk Vileplume Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Clefable: 218-260 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Vileplume Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 164-194 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 96-114 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 74.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you are submitting a spread that has passable offenses, but want to leave room for not needing to invest too heavily in offenses, going physical means CAP30b can better answer CM Clef/Fini with Gunk Shot. I think this is a significant point in physical's favor, if not the ONLY point in physical's favor. We should allow either Attack or Special Attack to be set to X for stat dumping, depending on the specific interactions with these MUs you want your spread to have.
 

Lasen

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I do really enjoy the discussion that was held here in the past 3 or so days. There is a pretty clear desire for a special bias when it comes to offensive prowess with a good Defense stat to take full advantage of Body Press, and there seemed to be a bit of a bias towards high Special Defense earlier in the thread. There is a bit of divide on how we want to budget our remaining stats, so in spirit of respecting most people's individual slates, I'll be setting flexible individual limits in the near future.

For now, I'd like to take a look at 30i, our utility wallbreaker. I've prepared some questions for us to discuss:

1. What should our offensive bias be?
2. Tinted Lens makes balancing 30i's offensive stats very delicate, as we don't want it to be able to burst through its potential checks and counters. How can we achieve this?
3. A huge part of 30i's identity is utility. Should we go for a fast or slow 30i?
4. Should the HP between the two formes be the same, considering there is precedent in most forme changes and especially so on the Pokemon we're based on, Giratina and it's Origin forme?


as a reference and for convenience, here's the defensive switch-ins for 30i, as defined earlier in the process.

Switch-ins:
(safe) :arghonaut: :clefable: :colossoil:(utility) :hippowdon: :jumbao: :landorus-therian:(defensive) :rillaboom:
(shaky) :slowking: :slowking-galar: :tapu fini: :toxapex:

Pressure:
:dragapult: :kyurem: :syclant: :tapu koko: :tapu lele: :urshifu-rapid-strike: :weavile: :zeraora:
(if physical 30i) :heatran:
(if special 30i) :melmetal:

Checks:
:Arctozolt: (in hail) :syclant: :tapu koko: :tapu lele: :weavile: :zeraora: Steel-types w/o recovery

Counters:
(if physical 30i) :skarmory: :slowbro: :toxapex:(physdef)
(if special 30i) :blissey: :slowking: :slowking-galar: :toxapex:(spdef)
 

Zetalz

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Might respond to the other questions later but for right now just want to answer question 4 since it's a pressing matter we haven't gone over yet.
4. Should the HP between the two formes be the same, considering there is precedent in most forme changes and especially so on the Pokemon we're based on, Giratina and it's Origin forme?
Initially I was all for keeping HP between the formes because of precedence set but over time I've really fallen out of love with the idea. By not restricting our HP to a hard limit it gives more freedom in stat spreads, which can be particularly beneficial for CAP 30 as a whole. 30b might enjoy having an HP/Defenses balance that favors lower HP and higher Defense to raise the power of Body Press, while 30i would enjoy the opposite, having high HP to reduce Brave Bird recoil. I know we like our precedents here in CAP but I strongly feel that pidgeonholing ourselves into a locked shared stat will have an overall negative impact between our stat submissions that isn't worth the trouble.
 
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