CAP 32 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

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spoo

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CAP 32 So Far

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It's time to discuss one of the most important decisions for CAP 32, its type! Please follow dex's posts carefully and DO NOT immediately propose type combinations until he says so.

Below is the final post from the Concept Assessment thread:

Alright, I think the last two questions have been sufficiently covered. I don't see anything crucial left for us to discuss before moving on, so Concept Assessment will be coming to a close.

The clear majority of us believe that offensive builds will be the most effective as potential roles. This is where the design space seems the most open, and through tools like high-BP STABs and unique boosting abilities/moves, we have a lot of room to work around lackluster stats and set ourselves apart from competition. Support for defensive roles was also decently high, though, and I agree that they have a lot of promise; while a defensive mon's stats may be comparatively harder to compensate for, we also established earlier that the bar for average stats is much lower for defensive mons in general, which helps to alleviate this issue. As for purely support-based roles, it seems our faith in them is the lowest. Still, because support options provide utility independent of our stats, certain abilities and moves could complement a more offensively or defensively inclined build very effectively.

Now onto the more divisive topic of stage order. I've waffled back and forth on this for the past couple days, but ultimately I'm confident that this is our best choice moving forward.

Concept Assessment => Typing => Concept Assessment 2 (choosing a role) => Defining Moves (very loose, all-encompassing list) => Ability => Defining Moves 2 (standard operation) => Threats => Stat Limits => Stats => Movesets

I talked this decision over with the TLT and received a majority support for this order of operations. Both SLs for Ability and Moves, the stages most affected, preferred this order as well. There was some dissent for the placement of DM before Ability earlier in this thread, as well as choosing our typing before role, so I want to be as transparent as possible about my thought process.

Typing before CA2
Just as our typing heavily informs our role, a few users pointed out that our role can easily inform what typing we choose, which makes it difficult to choose which one to go first. In the vast majority of CAP processes (I think everything before Gen 8?), we didn't explicitly identify a role before the Typing stage or even at all, so I don't believe that we would inherently be without a clear goal in Typing by doing so. My intention for placing Typing before roles is to restrict our options during the former stage the least possible amount; while we could likely make just about any role work (some will be better than others), our typing is absolutely crucial to our success and I'd argue there is a much slimmer margin for error in choosing a good one. As such, I believe it is better to conduct the stage without a role that restricts what options are available.

Defining Moves & Ability
Historically speaking, polljumping is not uncommon in the Ability stage. (For anyone unaware, polljumping refers to arguments that are based on polls that haven't happened yet, e.g. arguing for Electric/Steel because it would make a good defensive Pokemon that has Levitate.) During Jumbao, some of the discussion around Drought was based around wanting options like strong Fire-type coverage and Growth later on, while the most it ended up getting was Flame Burst. During Smokomodo, much of the discussion around Technician was implicitly about Bonemerang and Flame Charge, but those options ended up being denied later on. These CAPs led to the creation of the Defining Moves stage in attempt to remedy this issue, which it largely did. But even as recently as our last CAP, Saharaja, we saw people arguing for Serene Grace as its Primary Ability who assumed that we would learn additional moves with strong secondary effects -- of course, we were unable to know this, because a proper discussion about moves hadn't happened yet. Additional minor examples of this phenomenon can be found in a number of other processes. I don't agree that we should carry on as normal and simply relax the rules around something that has shown to have negative impact on the CAP process.

In my opinion, it will be easier to conduct a successful Ability stage if we have some idea of what our best moveset options are. Whether this is a comprehensive list of relevant STABs, good status/general utility moves, or anything else, these are things that can influence what ability we choose. By discussing moves earlier than normal, we can reduce the impact of polljumping and make more informed decisions at a crucial step of the process. I believe this is key to our goal of building with synergies between each stage in mind. The flip side of this, as a few users were keen to point out, is that it could negatively warp the Ability stage in its own way. If we already have a list of good moves in front of us, we may unfairly ignore abilities that interact with moves not on the list, despite how exhaustive or inclusive the initial list aimed to be. There could also be new moves enabled by our ability that weren't discussed in the initial DM stage and find themselves left out during the Stats stage as a result. The solution to the latter issue is to have a Defining Moves 2 stage, conducted as normal post-Ability, but the former issue remains. We will need to be proactive about considering the full breadth of Ability options and not hyperfixating on our list of Defining Moves. I fully trust Scizivire to ensure that this happens, and I trust the CAP userbase to not fall into this trap as well.

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That covers everything I have to say. Thanks for making this stage run as smoothly as I could've hoped, and for all the great insights that will guide us during the rest of the process. The Typing stage should be soon underway, so I'll hand things over to dex to take it from here!
This thread will open after the Typing Leader, dex, makes his first post.
 

dex

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Hello, and welcome to the typing stage! I'm dex, your stage leader for typing. Our concept, Bang Average, has a ton of available design space for us, so I'm looking forward to the variability in our future! This stage will be doing a lot to refine what we want to get out of this concept, so keep an open mind. At this moment, discussion around specific typings is not open. Instead, I've prepared some questions that should help guide the rest of the stage.

1. How much should we value a typing narrowing (or not narrowing) the playing field for what roles CAP 32 can inhabit?

2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?

3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?

4. Are there STAB types that don't require a good statistical backing to operate well?

5. Does the BP of STAB moves play a roll in compensating for stats? What types have commonly distributed, powerful STAB moves?

Because I am an SL again, you all get to have interesting bird facts.

Bird Fact of the Day: The Killdeer is an incredibly crafty and protective bird. Adult Killdeer will often fake a broken wing or other injury to lure predators away from their nests and eggs.
 

ausma

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2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?
We need more resistances, 100%. As I said in the previous stage, resistances often make a lot of a difference for defensive Pokemon, and given that our bulk will not be particularly stellar, having resistances to take advantage of will give us much more leverage to come in and do our job. Less weaknesses is ofc nice as it means we have less room to be directly exploited, but having more resistances with more weak points is more effective imo as it gives us the ability to actually do well in more matchups to make up for the fact our ability to take neutral hits will be relatively shaky.

3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?
Pretty easy; ones that pack relevant resistances and immunities to important attacking types in SV, namely Fighting-, Dragon-, Ice-, and Ground-type attacks. The obvious candidates are Fairy and Steel, the former especially in a format with limited Fairy-types, but a couple other big ones that come to mind are Flying and Water. Immunities always cancel out damage regardless of stats so I think taking advantage of those is also worth considering regardless of our role. I believe Fairy and Water are the best candidates here because of their great resistance pool and general dearth of easily exploitable weaknesses.

4. Are there STAB types that don't require a good statistical backing to operate well?
5. Does the BP of STAB moves play a roll in compensating for stats? What types have commonly distributed, powerful STAB moves?
Going to loop these in one response because I think these are both relevant to one another and important to consider interchangeably.

Essentially, types that pack high BP STAB options that can somewhat consistently threaten super-effective damage are really nice to consider here, namely Fighting due to options like Focus Blast and Close Combat, but types like Ground and Fire also come packed with options like Headlong Rush and Flare Blitz.

I believe BP makes a massive difference for our damage output, particularly due to BP's role in damage scaling. Having 10 more points in our offenses pales in comparison to having 10 more points in our BP. STAB Draco Meteor and Boomburst sting like all hell, even from Pokemon that don't have particularly flashy offenses, just because of how powerful these moves naturally are. I believe that considering STAB-types that have genuinely good, if not great, BP options is really important to consider if we want to pose any kind of natural threat. Our ability will of course make a difference here, but my point stands.
 

MrDollSteak

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1. While it's quite possible that some types would completely limit our roles, there is a surprising amount of intrinsic flexibility for others. Both Nidoking and Clodsire are Poison/Ground types that have been discussed as 'somewhat' Bang Average, although of course Clodsire's STankiness is more on the extreme end. The point is that they both make their type work, or at the least, circumvent the restrictions of their typing. Nidoking often doesn't run Poison STAB, and Clodsire has a pretty essential Immunity to a key weakness. Put simply I think we'd be surprised by how flexible our role can still be.

2. I think it's probably the latter. Many of our successful Bang Average examples like the Rotom Appliances and Clefable survive with not a massive amount of resistances, but only a few weaknesses. While switchin opportunities afforded by resistances are important, they can to a large extent come in on some neutral hits too.

3. I think most can to some extent, but the key is having a generally low weakness count, at least one key resist or immunity, and some sort of in-built utility. Poison, Ground, Steel, Electric, Ghost, Dark and Flying and to a lesser extent Normal, Grass and Fire, all feature an immunity to a status condition, ability or other typing that enables flexibility in the ability stage and brings utility that can be taken advantage of. Even those with weaknesses to common attacking types often pack some key resistances, or at the least a lot of neutral options such as Electric, Poison, Ghost. Other options that historically succeed are generically powerful types like Fairy, Dragon and Water which simply have very powerful resists and a relatively low weakness count in terms of common attacks.

4. I'm unclear about exactly which statistic is being referred to here, but in terms of some previous examples of Offensive builds such as Nidoking and Breloom, it's clear that at least one spammable STAB option with a good spread of Super-Effective to resisted ratio, Ground and Fighting respectively is important. Neither Poison nor Grass are historically seen as the most effective offensive STAB options but with the support of another powerful STAB, or in Nidoking's case 'pseudo-STAB' from Sheer Force, historically average attacking types are circumvented or harnessed. Breloom mostly consistently runs Grass moves that form a key part of the kit, even if it isn't the most obvious offensive type because of the STAB power, and its synergy with its most common ability.

5. I think this definitely comes in to things to quite a large extent. Our Bang Average examples are often carrying reliable, spammable and decently powerful attacks - although the specific BP range naturally will probably be determined by later stages. To return to Nidoking and Breloom, they carry quite different moves as a result of their ability needs. Functionally they are mostly over 100 BP after modifiers but at the same time it is primarily the accuracy that is significant in order for reliability. Even Defensive Bang Average examples have access to reliable and spammable attacks that Chip Away and provide Utility to some extent, such as Clefable's Moonblast, Rotom's Volt Switch and Hydro Pump and various historical examples from other Gens that packed Earthquakes or Scalds (not even always in a STAB capacity).
 
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1. How much should we value a typing narrowing (or not narrowing) the playing field for what roles CAP 32 can inhabit?
I think it's nice if we allow a certain degree of flexibility. Even within larger roles there are a lot of different "sub-roles" (an offensive mon can be a wallbreaker, sweeper, offensive pivot, offensive utility mon, etc.– often being able to choose amongst several of these with the same overall kit) and I think it's nice if we at least leave several of these sub-roles open.

Typings that allow for role flexibility even on the same set, for example an offensive mon that has some useful resistances to allow for switching in, or a defensive mon that has a useful STAB typing, are often quite valuable. Typings that allow for flexibility, offering both offensive and defensive benefits, are very good here in my opinion.

2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?
Numerous resistances is more valuable than few weaknesses when you have only average or below average bulk. Defensive mons that get by with defensive typings that are broadly neutral against the metagame, like Blissey and Dondozo, usually have monster stats to allow them to take neutral hits easily.

3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?
Steel is incredibly good for this, offering a ton of resists and few weaknesses. Fairy, Water, Flying, and Dragon are pretty good too when paired with typings that grant extra resistances.

4. Are there STAB types that don't require a good statistical backing to operate well?
Any typing with high base power STABs like Fighting, Poison, and Ground requires less stats to hit hard. Alternatively, typings that are "spammable" against the metagame, offering really useful super effective or neutral coverage against a range of threats, like Ice and Ghost, are extremely helpful too.

5. Does the BP of STAB moves play a roll in compensating for stats? What types have commonly distributed, powerful STAB moves?
Yes. Fighting, Poison, Ground, Fire, Water, Grass, Normal, etc. offer high powered STABs on both sides of the spectrum. Most other types have strong STABs on at least one side.
 
Regarding Question 2, it would definitely make sense for a mon with lower stats to have more resistances than fewer weaknesses, especially if it is expected to take hits before attacking. We cannot afford to pull a Blissey or Dondozo, so Normal and Water are (mostly) our of the question here.

Question 5, BP of reliable STAB moves is also very important, which Fighting, Poison, Ground, and several others have plentiful access to. Close Combat, Headlong Rush, Gunk Shot, and so on are excellent examples of the types viol mentioned above.
 
1. How much should we value a typing narrowing (or not narrowing) the playing field for what roles CAP 32 can inhabit?
I think we shouldn't shy away from constraining our role selection by picking an optimal typing for a specific role. CAP 32 is going to need to set itself apart, and a typing without a standout use case is going to cause us to have to compensate with raw power in later stages. Versatility is good and welcome, but we should be sure that we're making something exceptional to make up for our restrictions.

2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accommodate for lackluster bulk?
As others have said, more resistances is better, but I'd actually like to use this question to talk about what I find more crucial to CAP 32, immunities. Just about every successful of bang average packs a leverageable immunity, either from typing, ability, or both. Clodsire, Gliscor, Clefable, Corviknight, and even Breloom all massively benefit from being able to avoid Toxic, and looking at their peers such as Mandibuzz and Quagsire you can see how helpful this is in practice. Typing immunities to common STABs are also similarly important, the likes of ground immunities on Rotom, Pelipper, and Corviknight, or water immunity abilities on the likes of Clodsire. All of these examples provide these Pokemon free turns to switch in, and in some cases let it avoid counterplay that would be otherwise crippling. I propose that, while not strictly necessary, we pay special attention to typings that grant us relevant immunities, as without one or more we may be placing certain pressure on our later stages.

3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?
Steel, Water, Fairy, going down the straight up tierlist of the type chart is an easy place to start. Given my answer above, I would really like to look at typings that include immunities, namely Flying, Steel, Poison, Fairy, and Grond.

4. Are there STAB types that don't require a good statistical backing to operate well?
Individually? Honestly, probably not. Unless we're making a Dracovish, a single STAB isn't going to take us very far. What's far more likely to matter offensively is good two-type coverage, this concept is both a free pass and a demand for us to look at coverage pairings that would be considered far too strong normally.

5. Does the BP of STAB moves play a role in compensating for stats? What types have commonly distributed, powerful STAB moves?
Yes, absolutely high BP and stacking multipliers is going to be very important offensively. Dragon, Fighting, Fire, Ground are the clear standouts here but I'd like to make a case for Steel as well, while not the best coverage it has access to a lot of "build-around" high power moves.
 
1. How much should we value a typing narrowing (or not narrowing) the playing field for what roles CAP 32 can inhabit?

The typing of CAP32 should ABSOLUTELY narrow down the playing field for what roles it can inhabit. Typing defines a Pokémon’s weakness, resistances, offensive advantages, and disadvantages. I think these factors define what CAP32 will be able to do in the metagame.

2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk? (Not saying these answers exist just go with me here)

This one’s hard. If you have two weakness per say, but if they’re Ground and Fairy that’s kinda useless. However, if your resistances are Grass, Bug, Rock, Ice and Normal, how effective is that really? But at the end of the day, I do believe that more resistances is more important, as the less threats you have to be checked by, the more defensive pressure you can possess.

3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?

Flying: I think Flying is a very strong candidate here. Resisting U-Turn (not allowing as much momentum), Close Combat, and being immune to Ground in general are great for a defensive Mon. However, you are weak to Volt Switch, BoltBeam, and Rock Moves (inconsistent at best but still good) aren’t ideal, but paired with the right typing, does make a great defensive threat.

Steel: The unopposed best defensive typing, if we are saying that more resistances is important, fingers should be pointed here. However, you are weak to amazing moves in Close Combat, Flamethrower, and Earthquake.

Fairy: Fairy, in my opinion, is the main argument for why few weaknesses is more important. Weak to only Poison and Steel, not ideal offensive typings, Fairy has a great defensive profile. Fairy also resists common types like Fighting and Dark, and are immune to Dragon, another common type.

Water: Another great defensive typing, Water is only weak to Electric and Grass types, and plenty of resistances, like Fire, Steel, Ice, and other Water types. This would definitely make a great typing for a defensive route for CAP32.

4. Are there STAB types that don't require a good statistical backing to operate well?

5. Does the BP of STAB moves play a roll in compensating for stats? What types have commonly distributed, powerful STAB moves?


I’m grouping these two together. For STABs that don’t need good stats, I’d say Fairy, Ground, Fire, Fighting, Water, Electric, Bug, Flying, Ice, Dark, and Dragon all have merit. I’d also say these typings (except Bug, Ice, and Dark) have powerful STAB moves that are worth using as well as Poison. I also think that STAB does indeed play a role into compensating for low stats.
 

Brambane

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If we wish to pursue a more defensive option, a typing with few weaknesses seems more important. Most Bang Average defensive Pokemon also have typings or abilities that complete mitigate some degree of passive damage (think Levitate, Magic Guard, SR resistance) in order to maximize their ability to switch in and heal from Leftovers. This is obviously more important when your defenses are middling; your margins are smaller for damage you can take overall, so you need every scrap of HP you can salvage.

No singular type combination can carry poor stats alone though. Every defensive option has had some defining ability that made the Pokemon relevant, usually in combination of its typing or even independent of it. Clefable is one the of the best defensive Pokemon in OU in DPP while still being a Normal-type; Magic Guard is that good (as is Knock Off.) Both Fairy and Normal lack many weaknesses, which reinforces the idea above. This is also true for Water/Ground, which both Quagsire and Gastrodon have put use into OU before.

Every type at this point has strong STAB options, or at least options that could be made absurdly strong once we get to the ability stage. Sometimes the stat split isn't very fair, i.e. Electric still isn't doing great for physical options. I would rather focus on "unfair" specific moves that require STAB to operate effectively. Think of stuff with really strong unique effects we can exploit, i.e. Freeze-Dry, Lumina Crash, Ceaseless Edge, Torch Song, that sort of thing. This will cause defining moves to inevitably leak into typing stage, but such is the design process and considering the discourse on the CAP Discord (https://discord.gg/c83j7zQBEV) usually dives deep into STAB options during the type stage anyways, there is little point in ignoring it.
 
5. Does the BP of STAB moves play a roll in compensating for stats? What types have commonly distributed, powerful STAB moves?
Why is "commonly distributed" relevant here? I know we typically don't give out exclusive moves, but there are powerful options like V-Create, Last Respects, Bolt Strike, and Blue Flare (and Revival Blessing, if we include status moves) that are rare but not exclusive to any one mon or evolutionary line. It might be difficult to balance Last Respects even with bang average stats, and I'm not a fan of Revival Blessing, but the others seem like interesting options to consider.

If we stick to more common moves, Normal stands out for its access to Boomburst. Fighting, Poison, Flying, Bug, Fire, Water, Electric, Grass, and Dragon also have access to decent moves with 120+ BP (leaving out Rock and Steel due to the massive recoil of Head Smash and Steel Beam).
 
2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?

It depends on our role, really. If our role is more offensive, having numerous resistances/few weaknesses won't be as necessary. That being said, even with offensive roles, it couldn't hurt. And if our role isn't anything other than offensive nuke, we absolutely need numerous resistances and few weaknesses. They will play a big part in carrying our potential defensive profile, as we are probably not gonna end up with the bulkiest mon.

4. Are there STAB types that don't require a good statistical backing to operate well?

STAB types with high BP moves will likely take us farther with worse stats. That alone won't make a mon with bad stats good though. Types like Bug and Poison aren't particularly great STAB types despite having high BP moves we could choose from. Types that could take us far include Fire, Flying, Ground, and Dragon, as they are all good offensive typings with high BP options.

5. Does the BP of STAB moves play a roll in compensating for stats? What types have commonly distributed, powerful STAB moves?

I'd say it does. By opting for high power STAB options, we can more easily get away with bad offensive stats. Types with high power moves include Normal, Fighting, Dragon, Flying, Ground, and Fire. Probably others that I'm forgetting too.
 

dex

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Why is "commonly distributed" relevant here? I know we typically don't give out exclusive moves
It seems you’ve figured out what was meant by “commonly distributed” already. Furthermore, the “unlocking” of moves like that will have to wait for Defining Moves, which is, notably, not our current stage. For now, I’d like conversation to be focused on typing, and while you can assume access to “commonly distributed” moves, you can’t assume access to others without polljumping. Let’s keep conversation focused on typing, please.
 
1. How much should we value a typing narrowing (or not narrowing) the playing field for what roles CAP 32 can inhabit?

Regardless of narrowing done/not done in the typing stage, at some point the mon will be restricted to the one (or so) role it actually has in CAP, worrying too much about typing doing some of that narrowing doesn't seem needed.

2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?

I'm in agreement with people here that more resistances here are the better path to take.

Outside of very few specific combinations of types/abilities, you can't remove all weaknesses - and with poor stats, even a neutral hit can still pack a punch. Having many resistances will give the mon way more space to switch and act.
 

Gekokeso

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1. How much should we value a typing narrowing (or not narrowing) the playing field for what roles CAP 32 can inhabit?

The typing we choose can absolutely narrow down our options which are usually very numerous in a concept like this. Choosing a type with a steel type narrows our options due to steel not being an optimal typing offensively, while a type like Ice will take defensive roles out of the question. Do consider that there are a couple of typings and typing combinations that are considerably more flexible due to being good both offensively and defensively, such as water and ground.

2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?

I do believe that fewer weaknesses is more key than numerous resistances here. I shall once again refer to Clefable here, but Gliscor and to a lesser extent Rotom-wash also apply here. Clefable, despite only having resistances to fighting, dark and bug alongside it's dragon immunity, is able to compensate by being weak to poison and the relatively unseen steel type. This is because it is able to match well against what little it takes on and in some metas it can take on nearly any special attacker thanks to calm mind. In a similar vein, Gliscor and Rotom-Wash are able to check certain threats that might even not even have attacks resisted by them. I think people really underrate how bulky a Mon can be with the right investment and right resistances, even if it doesn't resist that much.

3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?

As mentioned in the previous segment, types with few weaknesses tend to do well, but consider that any type with a good immunity is also a superb option to guarantee being able to wall certain Mons. Flying, Ground, Steel, Fairy, Dark and to a lesser extent Normal and Ghost can archeive this.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?
Generally both are important but leaning towards more resists, for the reasons ausma put. I do want to bring specific mention that immunities are super valuable as well, as it means we take generally less hits onto our weaker-than-average defenses. Of what people would qualify as "bang average" Pokemon, a majority tend to utilize at least one immunity either due to typing or ability. There are a few exceptions to this, namely Breloom, but these exceptions usually incorporate other tools to compensate. I don't think there is immediate pressure to ensure an immunity in this stage as we do have Ability to go through, but I do believe that getting at least one is a very important tool for most bang average 'mons, and CAP32 could definitely benefit as well.
3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?
The more resists the better generally. This obviously brings up mention of Fairy, Steel, and Water, which are absolutely loaded with useful resistances, but Fire is another that springs to mind due to its surprisingly large number of resistances.

I'd be remiss not to bring up immunities again, of which Dark, Flying, and Ground are the most important in my humble opinion. Ghost is another, but I do have concerns about its strengths when so much of the metagame is already Ghost heavy, so it may struggle to find a niche with Dragapult and Gholdengo about as well as Equilibra and Garganacl to stop them.
 

Da Pizza Man

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1. How much should we value a typing narrowing (or not narrowing) the playing field for what roles CAP 32 can inhabit?
I honestly don't really think we necessarily need to focus on narrowing down a role at this point of the process to be honest, so I don't really think there is a whole lot of importance on choosing a type that does and/or doesn't allow us to do so.

2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?
If we want to value the defensive strengths of a typing, having a good number of valuable resistances is going to be absolutely critical, as many users here have already pointed out. That being said, one thing I want to bring up is that in terms of resistances, we should be valuing quantity over quality. To demonstrate my point, I think looking at why Fire is often considered to be a fairly mediocre defensive type, despite being second to only Steel for having the most resistances out of any type in the game. While it is true that Fire does have a lot of resistances, when you really look at what those resistances are, you see that most of them are for types that are either just not very good offensively in general (Bug, Grass, Steel), or aren't super common offensive types right now (Ice), which heavily diminishes the value that the type ends up bringing to the table. On the flip side of things, Dark, despite being weak to a very common type (Fighting) and not having a whole lot of resistances, is often considered to be a fairly good defensive type thanks to the value that its resistances to Ghost and to a lesser extent itself bring to a team (Having a Dark-type on a team automatically gives you some sort of decent switch-in to Pult, doubly so if it is paired with Steel and/or Fairy to prevent it from taking a whole lot of damage from Draco Meteor as well).

3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?
As I said before, types that have a strong number of solid valuable resistances can make use of poor defensive stats. In terms of specific types though, Steel stands out to me the most just due to it's sheer defensive strength (Resisting Dragon and Fairy is absolutely huge in this metagame, and having a resistance to Rock is also very nice since obviously Stealth Rock is always going to be something that needs to be taken into account). Another typing that I really like at the moment is Flying, as the resistance to Fighting and the outright immunity to Ground make it extremely valuable in a metagame where Great Tusk is absolutely everywhere.

4. Are there STAB types that don't require a good statistical backing to operate well?
5. Does the BP of STAB moves play a roll in compensating for stats? What types have commonly distributed, powerful STAB moves?
Grouping these two questions together since they are covering the same ground.

I would say that the value of an offensive type in general, but especially on a mon that can't really rely on it's sheer offensive strength to do the heavy lifting for it, comes down to two basic things

1: Has access to high BP moves
2: Has a low number of resistances

The first criteria is fairly obvious here. Types that have access to powerful attacks, such as Fire, Ground, and Fighting, go very well with mons that don't have the highest offensive stats, since the high base power of the moves that they have access to is usually enough to offset having weak STAB.

The second criteria listed, on the other hand, is where types such as Ghost and Dark get a lot of their value from, despite not really having access to a whole lot of high power moves. Shadow Ball from Dragapult for instance, is such a powerful attack despite Dragpult having only decent special attack (100 is not a whole lot in the grand scheme of things) and relying on a fairly weak move for STAB, because there is just a complete drought of mons in the metagame who resist the move, meaning that it is hitting pretty much everything in the metagame for full power.

Because I am an SL again, you all get to have interesting bird facts.

Bird Fact of the Day: The Killdeer is an incredibly crafty and protective bird. Adult Killdeer will often fake a broken wing or other injury to lure predators away from their nests and eggs.
Birds aren't real, they are government drones.
 
People have been offering up some great opinions and discussion, so it's about time I dragged things down with my own.

There have been lots of comments so far about typings that are good. Great even. "The best" even. However, being good, great, or even the best isn't the point of a cap. It's to explore what can be done with both freedom and restraint. Steel and Fairy have been brought up together as an example, and while it's true that they're amazing typings that are arguably even better when paired together, there isn't a lot to explore when pairing them together.
Steel/Fairy is a great typing. That's it. Great, even. Possibly the best. But there's not a whole lot to explore within that typing that hasn't already been explored.

I think this cap's concept is the perfect opportunity to really try something new, and this ties directly into its concept. A Pokemon that's mostly average or even middling across the board can see usage in formats above its official rank when they fill a niche. Although there are many ways cap32 can fill different niches, one of the best ways to make it stand out against the entire rest of the metagame is to give it a unique typing. Not necessarily one that has never been seen before -- ice/poison as an example would be doodoo both offensively and defensively and would be nearly impossible to make shine on an already average Pokemon. But there are many typings that exist outside of OU (and CAP) that could shake things up just from their very presence and, by extension, the need to prepare for them and their ability to put teams that were unprepared for them onto the back foot.

ORAS Talonflame came up in concept discussion several times, but you know what one of the best Talonflame counters was? Rhyperior. Needless to say, it's a mon that would normally never see the light of day in OU, especially with its easily taken advantage of typing, but it's a Pokemon that would run a train on teams that didn't think it would be a threat during the teambuilding stage.

Having said that, there are several completely unique typings comprised of solid types in their own right. On the opposite end of the spectrum from the awful and probably useless ice/poison, there's the excellent fairy/ground that boasts the kind of immunities, resists, offensive potential, defensive potential, and niche fulfillment that people in this thread have been talking about. This isn't a formal submission of that type, by any means. I'm just writing a small essay to say I think a unique typing would be more conductive towards exploration of the metagame and the creation of a new Pokemon as a whole, than something we already know is good (or great) (or even the best).
 

SHSP

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1. How much should we value a typing narrowing (or not narrowing) the playing field for what roles CAP 32 can inhabit?
I think a little bit of narrowing down is helpful, but this is one of those questions that has a goldilocks zone built into it. Ideally, we can look at typings that don't exactly mandate a role or a specific build right off the rip, but also don't give us just one plausible option or route to finishing the CAP. Tough answer to find, but I do think if there's a side to lean towards, its towards more narrowing down.

The other questions have been answered half to death at this point, so there's not much original thought I've got to put down here. More resistances are likely the best route, and high-BP, threatening STAB options are also a great boon.
 
2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?

Both are good, but I'd say immunities are far more important. Giving a Pokemon 1 or 2 immunities can have them be wonderful defensively, and 3 immunity pokemon are usually really good.

3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?

The two most important types in this regard is Steel and Water. Bulky water has been an archetype forever.
 
2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?
Any type combinations that has immunities or x4 resistances are going to naturally provide opportunities for switch ins. The number of actual resistances doesn't matter if the types they resist are irrelevant or the stats of CAP32 is so low that a x2 resistance still takes a chunk of health. If the stats are high enough however then a high number of resistances might allow it more opportunities to preform

3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?
Flying and Ghost both have good immunities; Steel, Water, Fairy are good if you want solid resistances. Most defensive typings still work well.

4. Are there STAB types that don't require a good statistical backing to operate well? /
5. Does the BP of STAB moves play a roll in compensating for stats? What types have commonly distributed, powerful STAB moves?

Moves with inherent downsides naturally have higher base power which can mitigate low stats. Pseudo-Legendaries can hit hard using their weaker Special Attack thanks to Draco Meteor, Talonflame was weaker then most walls with 81 Attack but still did ridiculous damage when it was OU thanks to Brave Bird/Flare Blitz, Contrary allowed Serperior to be a menace when it was in the game despite its pitiful 75 Special Attack, etc etc.

There are dozens of other examples I haven't mentioned from other metagames due to redundancy but practically every type has the means to do solid damage even with low offensive stats. If it weren't possible to do solid damage despite low stats, most defensive mon would be nothing but setup fodder. Most types have moves with high BP but STAB inherently matters to make up the difference in damage with mon with higher stats.

Fire, Flying, Fighting and Dragon are stand out types for high BP. Dark is a special mention since it has access to Foul Play with allows us to use our opponent's higher attack stat and ignoring the lack of stats all together.
 
Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?
Resistances (and immunities) are much more important here than having few weaknesses as the resistance aids in taking a hit, whereas a neutral typing has to rely on sheer bulk.
Taking half damage from some hits is much better for a frailer build than not taking double damage from many attacks. That said, not being fodder for too many attackers is definitely beneficial overall.
Resistances are key but having few weaknesses is still valuable.
What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?
Generally typings with immunities can make the best use of poor stats, as they don’t even have to rely on them to have switch in opportunities. Additionally the more important resists they have, the easier it will be to use CAP32 defensively. Consider Levitate Gengar, which while not average offensively was certainly lackluster defensively. Still it wrought immense defensive value from its frail build through its three immunities. Similarly Bisharp can use its immunities and resists to find openings that allow it a safe switch.
I want to bring attention to the idea, that some defensive types while great, might hinder CAP32 because of competition with generally stronger mons. While most bang average defensive mons have solid defensive types, a fair few of them don’t have the types with the most resists or fewest weaknesses but they also always have additional traits that will set them apart entirely and grant them niches that are almost impossible to replicate. Pre fairy Clefable was able to play important defensive roles despite not great bulk and defensive typing bc it was immune to any form of passive damage and was hard to wear down through common spikes sand strategies, while being able to cripple the opponent with knock or Twave.
Similarly no one would ever consider Lanturn in the same way as Rotom-W even though it shares the typing and has similar bulk.
4. Are there STAB types that don't require a good statistical backing to operate well?
there are certainly stabs that are more Spammable than others. Moves with high BP and/or added utility are a great way to still be potent even with less strong attack stats. Toxapex was one of the hardest to switch into mons in previous gens thanks to knock and Scald. And we’ve already talked about how Victinis Vcreate puts it on par with Kyurem B despite 70 points difference in Atk
Does the BP of STAB moves play a roll in compensating for stats? What types have commonly distributed, powerful STAB moves?
Obviously high bp helps mitigate low attack. That said I think the typing of the attack will be more important than the base power as In general I think in newer gens it’s hard to find a type that doesn’t have a spammable strong move or two.
I agree that reliability (in making progress) is more important than power as well. The opportunity cost for a weaker Mon missing a move is much higher as it’s harder for it to come in on the field, stay in and achieve meaningful damage. Accuracy as well as reliable additional effects often are better at forcing progress for weaker Pokémon. Again Clefable pre fairy is an interesting example as it runs Seismic toss for reliable damage and knock off to force progress over time.
Another aspect of stabs that seems fairly important for especially weaker attackers is stab priority as it ignores poor speed stats and gives them something to threat frail offensive mons.
 
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1. How much should we value a typing narrowing (or not narrowing) the playing field for what roles CAP 32 can inhabit?
We shouldn't, really. But then again, this is something that can't exactly be helped. While bulky Grounds and offensive Waters do exist in the metagame, Ground is usually seen as the offensive typing and Water as defensive. Ice & Fighting types also really want to be offensive, and Poison & Steel types really want to be defensive. I could go on, but I'd be here forever.

2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accommodate for lackluster bulk?
Short answer; Yes. Of course you want lots of valuable resistances on your not-so-bulky mon; those are what help it take attacks in the first place. But if it comes at the cost of one too many key weaknesses, that just gets it murdered :/

The most prominent types that you'd want to be resistant to, iirc, are Fire, Water, Electric, Fighting, Ground, Ghost, Dark, Fairy and maybe Ice and Dragon. Immunities to any of these are even better of course.

3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?
Water, Fairy and Poison types spring to mind. The latter in particular comes with a handy immunity to Toxic, which will help its ability to stay on the field for as long as it needs to, whereas the Toxic timer may otherwise force it out or make it have to stay in as a sac.

Aside from those, I feel like Dragon is being undersold as a defensive type. It packs resistances to Fire and Water like Water, but also an Electric resistance. Fairies are a pain but other than that...

Also, I'd err on the side of caution for Steel. Yes, it has the most resistances in the entire game, but almost none of them are very common. And in the meantime, you have to worry about stray Fire attacks, Fighting attacks, EQs or any combination of the three.
 
Hello! Hope everyone is having a lovely day so far :)

2. Is it more important to have numerous resistances or few weaknesses to accomodate for lackluster bulk?
Resistances are definitely more important. If a Pokémon has lackluster bulk with no resistances, then they have to rely on that lackluster bulk. Not much to say that hasn't already been said.

3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?
The top types in my mind are Flying, Water, and Ghost. Immunities are always great, and being immune to common types like Fighting & Ground is invaluable. Won't go more in depth about Water here, since we all seem to be in agreement that its a good option defensively. With that being said, I'm leaning more towards Flying due to the its common access to Roost as well as its immunity to spikes, which will help a lot in a defensive role.

I'm also going to be a little bit of a devil's advocate and say that we should avoid the Steel type. Though it's wide number of resistances is undeniably useful, Steel types are oftentimes good because they have phenomenal bulk in combination with those resistances. Plus, the Steel type's weaknesses are all common offensive types.

Fairy is also good defensively, but the immunities that Flying and Ghost provide are definitely more useful and common.

4. Are there STAB types that don't require a good statistical backing to operate well?
Fire, Electric, and Dark are all good options for STAB since their go to moves tend to have good secondary effects. Fire is a really good offensive type and a good amount of Fire type moves have at least some chance to burn; Electric is good for all the same reasons, with most good Electric STAB having at least some kind of chance to paralyze. Additionally, a sun boosted Fire STAB from any Pokémon will always deal significant damage. Dark has great utility in its STAB moves such as Knock Off and Foul Play. Foul Play in this case being particularly useful since it doesn't depend on the user's stats at all. In my opinion, Dark is the best of these three options since it provides really unique utility in its common STAB moves.

Additionally, Water is another great option since, just like Fire, a rain boosted Water STAB from any Pokémon will deal a good amount of damage.

5. Does the BP of STAB moves play a roll in compensating for stats? What types have commonly distributed, powerful STAB moves?
The BP of STAB moves will definitely play a role in compensating for stats. Pokémon with just pretty good offensive stats can be an offensive threat if given high BP moves. For example, Nidoking prefers special attacks even though its special attack is just pretty good compared to its attack stat, all thanks to its ability giving Nidoking's special moves a higher BP. On the contrary, a Pokémon like Mega Gyarados can be subpar despite a great attack stat thanks to its lack of high BP STAB options to match its attack stat.

Flying, Water, and Fire all have very very good distribution of high BP STAB moves. If I'm not mistaken, every Water type except for Urshifu Rapid Strike, Paldean Tauros Aqua Breed, Manaphy, and Phione can learn Hydro Pump. Similarly, nearly every Fire type can learn Fire Blast. Plus, all three of these types have a good physical STAB and special STAB option, so their types are less limiting in future stages such as deciding role, moveset, etc. Other types that almost always have commonly distributed STAB moves are Electric, Dragon, Ground, Fighting, & Psychic, though I'm less enthusiastic about these since they all have no effect on at least one type.

Bird Fact of the Day: The Killdeer is an incredibly crafty and protective bird. Adult Killdeer will often fake a broken wing or other injury to lure predators away from their nests and eggs.
Haha I learned this from the board game Wingspan :)
 
3. What types can make use of poor stats in a defensive capacity?

One thing I would like us to consider when designing CAP32 is that, especially in a meta where hazards are harder to remove than ever, this Pokemon is never gonna have an easy time switching in. Switch moves definitely help, but even then, you're rarely ever gonna get onto the field on your own. With that in mind, I think that giving this Pokemon a set of important resistances and immunities that it can use to get onto the field safely.

A Rocks resistance would do wonders for this thing, allowing you to come in way more often over a course of a game than you otherwise would. Of all the types that resist Rock, I think that Ground ans Fighting are gonna be out best bets here. While Steel would grant you the most defensive utility by far, Ground and Fighting are just so much more threatening in comparison. Ground even affords you with an much more relevant immunity in Electric, which dwarfs the relevance of Steel's immunity to the relatively uncommon Poison. Other types like Fairy, Flying, Dark, and Ghost similarly afford you with useful immunities while also allowing you to be offensive threatening in turn.

While primarily defensive types like Poison and the aforementioned Steel may not be ideal picks for a Pokemon that already needs all the power it can get, the sheer amount of security these types provide is immesurable. Poison's resistances to Fairy, Fighting, and U-Turn are invaluable in a metagame dominated by threats like Jumbao, Iron Valiant, and Revenankh, and Steel's resistances to damn near everything is never not gonna be useful in some capacity. However, if we do wanna build CAP32 around a strong defensive type like Steel or Poison, giving it a strong secondary STAB is imperative lest this Pokemon's offensive efforts fall completely flat (The Nidos and Excadrill do this to great effect). While we should be aiming to make CAP32 as threatening as possible to compensate for its poor stats, giving it the ability to switch more reliably into Stealth Rock and/or direct attacks would still go a long way.

4. Are there STAB types that don't require a good statistical backing to operate well?

Dark
, without a doubt. Not only is Dark incredibly difficult to resist in its own right, but it also has a selection of some of the best attacking moves in the game. Knock Off, Ceaseless Edge, Crunch, hell even Sucker Punch are all outstanding moves that, in addition to being remarkably strong, also have outstanding utility that ensures that you're almost always getting value out of clicking your best move. Bug is similarly blessed with fantastic attacks that, while being less immediately threatening on account of the fact that Bug is kinda fucking shit, pack even more utility than Dark's best moves, with U-Turn and First Impression being among the best moves in the game.

Other types like Fighting, Ground, Flying, Ghost, Fairy, and Dragon either have a) astonishingly powerful STABs with little to no drawbacks, or b) excellent neutral coverage that ensures that your attacks are stinging whatever comes in. Considering that CAP32's low stats are undoubtedly gonna impede its ability to enter the battle in the first place, giving it a STAB that'll almost always accomplish something of note is a must.
 
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