CAP 34 - Part 6 - Stat Limits Discussion

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spoo

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CAP 34 So Far

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This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is shnowshner, so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. shnowshner will be deciding the stat limits for CAP 34 at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.

These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 34. We will look at limits to CAP 34's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.

This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, we strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.

Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)
The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.​
Physical Sweepiness (PS)
The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.​
Special Tankiness (ST)
The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.​
Special Sweepiness (SS)
The rating of the Pokémon's special offense​

A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found HERE. To use it for yourself, create an editable copy with File > Make a copy. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice and Google Sheets are free.

If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then we suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!
 
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shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
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Hello all, I'm happy to announce that my body finally decided to stop being sick, just in time for us to delve into the Stats section of 34's process! To start, we need to work out our stat limits to help guide users towards submitting balanced yet effective stats spreads. Do not submit any stat spreads during this stage, but feel free to mention specific benchmarks/ranges as needed for the following discussion questions.

With Clangerous Soul as a key defining move and the express way we interact with Throat Spray, our effective stats are projected to be much higher than the average CAP operates with. How does losing 1/3 of our HP, and the subsequent +1 to all stats (+2 to Special Attack) influence our individual stats?

What range does our Speed stat best fall into, when considering both the +1 boost from Clangerous Soul and our priority-immune Ability? Is there value to outspeeding certain Pokemon before boosting?

How high are we comfortable letting our Special Attack and overall Special Sweepiness reach?

Our Attack and Defenses are not within our primary focus, but still receive a +1 boost from Clangerous Soul. Is there any merit to exploring these stats further and how we might use them to our advantage? For Attack, is it worth investing into when we're likely to run a -Attack nature? For bulk, can we at all take advantage of our heightened defenses when Clangerous Soul cuts into our HP?


I'm instating a soft 72 hour limit for discussion here. It may end up longer depending on how exhausting I am during the work week, but I'll try to keep things moving as best I can.
 
This has been said on Discord, but there are really two things which sweepiness let us do: outspeed revenge killers, and break through walls. For balance purposes, 34 should pretty clearly be able to do one or the other but not both, i.e. if it has the SpA to break through walls it should be weak to revenge killers, and if it has the speed to outpace revengers at +1 it shouldn't be too powerful that it is borderline unwallable. I think that these pose interesting contrasting issues: Speed has discrete numbers that we have to keep on eye on (e.g. can it outspeed pult at +1, can it outspeed booster gouging flame, etc etc) whereas power is much more fluid (is 125 SpA too strong because it can two-tap vest Glowking with Clanging Scales, and if not then how close to OHKO is too strong, etc). I think in general focusing on more speed would make 34 overall stronger especially since it already nullifies priority and +1 or +2 SpA is going to be strong even on a relatively low SpA stat like 100; I also wonder if more power will just make a choice item stronger than the throat spray build we are trying to encourage.

I have been swayed by the anti-fighting arguments in the previous thread, and I think that this thing is basically always going to be dumping attack and there is probably no circumstance where higher attack is ever useful. Bulk is a more complicated issue that I'm still running calcs on.
 

Samirsin

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:snom::ababo:
What range does our Speed stat best fall into, when considering both the +1 boost from Clangerous Soul and our priority-immune Ability? Is there value to outspeeding certain Pokemon before boosting?
I think Dragapult:dragapult:is one of the most defining opponents. Should we outspeed it after the boost? Speed tie it? Be slower than it? With or without investment?
For CAP 34 to outspeed Dragapult Timid Nature and 252 evs (421 final stat, 142 base) Poison Dragon would need 79 base speed stat and then invest +speed nature and 252 evs to outspeed after +1; and to outspeed after +1 without 252 evs and without +speed nature it needs 123 base speed stat.
(not taking Scarf pult into account, that thing is very fast)

79-123, very wide range. I suggest we force a max speed evs requirement, so a quarter of the range would be from 79 to 90 base Speed, which is perfect as it allows to outspeed many Knock off before boosts mons while forcing it to use Clangerous Soul for the Speed.

Do we want to outspeed Scarf/Booster energy users after boosts?

If Hemogoblin:hemogoblin:retains Taunt after nerf, we should definitely outspeed it before boosts. Being able to outspeed common Knock Off users before boosts is crucial for the concept. Fortunately they are not as fast, but Gliscor:gliscor:has a not so low Speed stat, same with Rillaboom:rillaboom: so probably we should prevent that Knock Off as well.

For example, 90 base Speed stat on CAP 34 (after +speed nature and 252 evs) outspeeds +Speed 252 Rillaboom and Gliscor without Speed investment.
 
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Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
What range does our Speed stat best fall into, when considering both the +1 boost from Clangerous Soul and our priority-immune Ability? Is there value to outspeeding certain Pokemon before boosting?
I personally believe we at the very least need to outspeed the entirety of the unboosted metagame after a Clangorous Soul with a speed boosting nature, I'm in essence saying we need to at least outspeed Dragapult at +1. A dragon type that needs to use ClangSoul twice to outspeed the current premier Dragon type simply has no chance of being viable in my eyes.

I think there's also merit to having it outspeed Dragapult with a non-speed boosting nature at +1, but we'd have to heavily finetune the threats it does not outspeed as a result. Like being able to outspeed +1 Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant, Walking Wake or Gouging Fire with a speed boosting nature, but not some of these with let's say a Modest one. I personally quite dislike the idea of forcing a Pokemon that boosts ALL of it's stats with Clangorous Soul to be pigeonholded into running max speed on every set just to outspeed Dragapult.

My ideal range would be 92-141 Speed, with 92 speed guaranteeing an outspeed on it with 252 speed EV's and a non speed-boosting nature, while 141 obviously being a cap so we get outsped even when 252+ by standard Dragapults.

Obviously we're probably not going to really be exploring that upper echelon, although there could certainly be some merit in guaranteeing speed to outspeed +1 Iron Boulder, Meowscarada, Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant, though that'd obviously require a heavy blow in our tankiness.
 
I don’t have much time right now, so I’ll be brief, but given how our ability denies revenge killing through priority, I’d rather hit a speed, that lets some speed boosted mons outpace CAP34, so that Offense still has leverage against CAP34 if it ever gets a boost. Otherwise letting 34 set up vs an frail and fast team, basically means you lose.
For that reason I’d also prefer higher breaking power overall, allowing 34 to be good against offensive teams that lack the speed to revenge it AND bulky teams that don’t bring enough bulk.
 

Samirsin

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I’d rather hit a speed, that lets some speed boosted mons outpace CAP34, so that Offense still has leverage against CAP34 if it ever gets a boost.
I completely agree with Amamama said. We don't want to build a Pokémon so oppressive that nothing can revenge kill it. It still has to have a weak point, and that could perfectly be very fast Pokémon, as our offense is not our Speed, but our Special Attack.
 
I wonder if being difficult to revenge kill is more oppressive than having no switch ins. Being hard to revenge but not having high enough SpA to break walls (e.x. having like 90 SpA and 121 Spe, to use a very high speed stat example) lets us do stuff like:

+2 252 SpA CAP34 Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 151-178 (39.9 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 132-156 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Naganadel Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Naganadel Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 169-199 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

etc. In general it just makes it a lot easier to switch in to and therefore a lot easier to deal with, especially for a mon which (assuming soul does end up being the strongest set, which I think we're aiming for anyway) really does not want to switch out once it gets going. Tbh I think we can go as low as 90 if this thing is a mid-late game cleaner, +2 is a really high boost and a +2 clanging has a decent chance of OHKOing Gliscor, which is a key interaction. I also generally just think that making 34's usefulness reliant on getting that +2 SpA is really pro-concept in a way that just more breaking power isn't. I don't know, I understand why high power and low speed feels easier to balance around but I think that a speed that's fast enough to outspeed most things at +1, and at most slow enough to be outsped by booster valiant with a somewhat lower SpA has merit.
 

Anchor9

#ampharosforou
is a Pre-Contributor
I think it’s important for several Booster Mons to outspeed CAP 34 after a Clangerous Soul with Booster Speed such as Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon. CAP 34 is supposed to be a late game sweeper. It shouldn’t be able to lead and sweep the game from there, like if the opponent unfortunately leads with Hemogoblin. Late game sweepers are supposed to have plenty of checks, yet become near unstoppable once those checks are strategically removed or weakened. By allowing Booster Energy Mons to outspeed CAP 34, it forces the player with CAP 34 to force out Booster Energies from Iron Valiant / Roaring Moon prematurely, while the opponent tries to preserve them. This increases the skill needed to play with and against CAP 34 while allowing it to be powerful, balanced, and fit its role as a late-game sweeper.
 

dex

I spoke to the devil in Miami
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What range does our Speed stat best fall into, when considering both the +1 boost from Clangerous Soul and our priority-immune Ability? Is there value to outspeeding certain Pokemon before boosting?
I think this is a really interesting question in particular. Dazzling has effectively removed a lot of revenge killers from the pool, which is a good thing for a set-up sweeper but a bad thing for balancing it. I feel like the highest Speed CAP 34 realistically should get assuming you want to use revenge killers as the best means of dealing with it is 115. This ensures the following Pokemon/sets can still outspeed positive nature +1 CAP 34: Booster Energy Iron Valiant, Choice Scarf Roaring Moon, Basculegion under rain, Choice Scarf Dragapult, Excadrill under sand, and Unburden Hawlucha. While this may seem like a long list, the only truly common set among these is Booster Energy Iron Valiant. As for a lower bound, there's quite a lot you can work with. Going lower than base 106 lets Deoxys-S outspeed +1 CAP 34, which is a little spooky, but I think you can use that as a balancing factor to justify a higher SpA spread. I think the absolute minimum Speed CAP 34 should have is base 79 to ensure that with a positive nature you still outspeed Dragapult at +1, but that is super low and would definitely need other concessions in the form of bulk and special attack.

However, I do think it is possible to create stat spreads with a much higher Speed stat than 115 if it comes with some BSR penalty. Iron Valiant is a huge breakpoint for this Pokemon (and any set-up sweeper), but you could also feasibly make this a Pokemon like Cawmodore that you just want to outbulk the fast hit and KO back.

Because Clangorous Soul is effectively a net neutral gain of bulk due to its HP cost, setting up before taking a hit is imperative. If a hit were to do 70% to CAP 34 before Clangorous Soul, it would do around 47% after assuming my head math is ok. The difference between those two scenarios is that if you are faster you get the boost while if you are not you just lose. I'm not sure what Pokemon are best to target due to this interaction, but this is something very important to keep in mind for when we do come to defining Speed limits.

Overall, I am not sure where the limits should be just yet; I think there are quite a few varied stat subs one could make, and Speed is varied with them. Looking forward to what everyone else has to say!
 
My ideal range would be 92-141 Speed, with 92 speed guaranteeing an outspeed on it with 252 speed EV's and a non speed-boosting nature, while 141 obviously being a cap so we get outsped even when 252+ by standard Dragapults.
I think 92 should be the ideal ceiling and urge people not to underestimate omniboosts. Psyshock only does

252 SpA Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def CAP34 (100 Base HP 73 Base Defence): 144-170 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

55% Damage is the benchmark for OHKOing 1 Hazard layer+Clangorous Soul. We're going for a priority-immune omnibooster, making it so scarfed 95+ pokemon and Dragapult can't outspeed takes Scarf Colossoil off the table. 92 outspeeds Scarf-Landorus. 67 outspeeds unboosted Boulder, Ribombee, and Meowscarada but not neutral Dragapult or Jolly Weavile. I think this thing should have to respect Rapid Spin Great Tusk. dex's 79 is probably the best one so far because of this.

Also, fun fact: Modest 160 Base Special Attack guarantees +2 34 OHKOs Equilibra with Fire Blast after Rocks.
 

spoo

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The question of "what's more oppressive, mid Speed + high SpA or high Speed + mid SpA" isn't easily answered without further context; we need to also be clear on what, specifically, we are "oppressive" against. The former build is harder for balance to deal with, while the latter doubles down on our anti-offense traits.

Given we're already immune to priority––the most common & effective method of revenge-killing setup sweepers in this tier––a high Speed stat that lets us bypass the little offensive counterplay remaining means we're insanely oppressive into structures that are frail and fast, aka most offense. This comes at the direct cost of a higher SpA, meaning we could end up whiffing into bulkier structures altogether. I think this is a direction with a high ceiling and a low floor.

A higher Special Attack at the cost of some Speed obviously does the opposite; we're better at breaking balance/fat, but offense––which we're naturally strong into already––has a couple more tools to handle us. Neither route is objectively more "oppressive" than the other in the general sense. That said, I imagine higher SpA + lower Spe results in a way less feast-or-famine matchup spread, so I really prefer it for that reason. Also consider that the offense teams that CAP 34 arguably looks to be best suited for, Grassy Terrain offenses, already have many strong anti-offense tools at their disposal like Hawlucha, Rilla's Grassy Glide, often other priority mons like Hemo/Gambit, and often a Booster Speed mon like Iron Moth or Great Tusk. Committing hard to the anti-offense role with high Speed here just doesn't feel necessary or smart.

I agree with dex that, at minimum, we should outspeed Dragapult after using Clangorous Soul, and never outspeed Booster Speed Iron Valiant (79 - 115 Speed). Still, despite my personal preferences, stat submitters should be able to pursue their preferences as well; hard capping Speed at 115 doesn't quite feel right, or really hard capping Speed in general. I think we just can pick a relatively restrained Special Sweepiness limit and more or less ensure what N-Manifold said in their first post––that we shouldn't be able to simultaneously outspeed every form of offensive counterplay and break through defensive checks without much help.
 

kenn

Prince of the Halidom
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With Clangerous Soul as a key defining move and the express way we interact with Throat Spray, our effective stats are projected to be much higher than the average CAP operates with. How does losing 1/3 of our HP, and the subsequent +1 to all stats (+2 to Special Attack) influence our individual stats?
With the cut into HP and Throat Spray, Clangorous Soul effectively is a +1/+0/+2/+0/+1 which doesn't feel as "broken" as an omniboost would have us to believe. I feel like overall the stats most affected by this are gonna be our Special Attack and Speed in terms of where we want CAP 34 to land; however, CAP 34's bulk should be naturally enough to tank what it needs to as the +1 to Defense/Special Defense don't make it any more or less tankier with the 33% cut into it's HP.
What range does our Speed stat best fall into, when considering both the +1 boost from Clangerous Soul and our priority-immune Ability? Is there value to outspeeding certain Pokemon before boosting?
I am fairly certain quite a few people have mentioned the bare minimum with is to outspeed Dragapult at +1 at 79 base Speed and I have to agree. That feels like a solid floor to work with and could allow for a hefty SpA if one so chooses. I also agree with the ceiling being below Iron Valiant as outspeeding it puts CAP 34 in precarious situations and forces the opponent to potentially do more work than they should have to when trying to take out a CAP that is not only iber fast but also is immune to priority. So a range of 79 to 116 sounds good to me, however...
How high are we comfortable letting our Special Attack and overall Special Sweepiness reach?
I also agree heavily with the points spoo and N-Manifold brought up that we shouldn't hard cap Speed but rather make sure Special Sweepiness isn't able to wallbreak AND be super fast but rather be one or the other. We can definitely have a higher Special Attack but at the cost of not outspeeding potentially key threats such as Deo-S or Miasmaw or vice versa.
Our Attack and Defenses are not within our primary focus, but still receive a +1 boost from Clangerous Soul. Is there any merit to exploring these stats further and how we might use them to our advantage? For Attack, is it worth investing into when we're likely to run a -Attack nature? For bulk, can we at all take advantage of our heightened defenses when Clangerous Soul cuts into our HP?
I don't think there is too much merit in exploring having a decent Attack stat as it takes way too much investment into it to be able to anything notable imo (for ex. You need 131 Attack with max EVs and a neutral nature to OHKO Libra with Close Combat). For bulk, however, I think there is good reason to look at how we can survive key hits to 2HKO some things or just survive hits after set up so CAP 34 doesn't have to worry about not having ample opportunities to get Clangorous Soul to pop off.
 
That said, I imagine higher SpA + lower Spe results in a way less feast-or-famine matchup spread, so I really prefer it for that reason. Also consider that the offense teams that CAP 34 arguably looks to be best suited for, Grassy Terrain offenses, already have many strong anti-offense tools at their disposal like Hawlucha, Rilla's Grassy Glide, often other priority mons like Hemo/Gambit, and often a Booster Speed mon like Iron Moth or Great Tusk. Committing hard to the anti-offense role with high Speed here just doesn't feel necessary or smart.
I don't know if that's true; I can see CAP 34 being a good late game cleaner in balance à la volcarona. If it sees use in Gterrain offense all the better, but either way I think that "mid-late game cleaner which can set up very quickly with soul+spray" is a pretty generally useful tool, and I don't totally agree that it's too matchup-fishy, although the comparison to volcarona is not helping my case...

I suppose I just don't know how useful a breaker which can only really do its job once is, while a cleaner only needs to be able to set up once. A fast mon without enough power to break checks on its own can rely on its teammates to weaken walls before setting up, but a breaker which gets revenged will have to switch out, and I fear that a strong slower cap34 will either be unviable or want to run another item than throat spray.

But I'm verging on poll jumping here, I'll cut the specifics short. I agree that keeping an eye on speed and sweepiness should be enough for now.
 
With Clangerous Soul as a key defining move and the express way we interact with Throat Spray, our effective stats are projected to be much higher than the average CAP operates with. How does losing 1/3 of our HP, and the subsequent +1 to all stats (+2 to Special Attack) influence our individual stats?

What range does our Speed stat best fall into, when considering both the +1 boost from Clangerous Soul and our priority-immune Ability? Is there value to outspeeding certain Pokemon before boosting?

How high are we comfortable letting our Special Attack and overall Special Sweepiness reach?
A high special sweepiness limit is of course ideal for a special sweeper, but with an effective +2 SpA / +1 Speed to work with it doesn't need to be *that* high. If we are outspeeding booster valiant, offensive counterplay is largely already off the table, so a limit set in place to preserve defensive counterplay by making certain offensive benchmarks inaccessible at higher speeds is probably ideal.

+2 252 SpA Naganadel Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 230-272 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's 88 SpA. And with 117 Speed that hits 118.01 Special Sweepiness.

For comparison of a different speed and a similar Sweepiness rating, 79 Speed and 124 Special Attack hits 118.12 Special Sweepiness.

+2 252 SpA (Base 124) Naganadel Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 290-342 (56.4 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA (Base 124) Naganadel Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 238-280 (46.3 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I definitely haven't done enough calcs yet to know where I personally stand on the limit, but I figured this is worth noting in regards to preserving defensive counterplay. I'm also for an overall BSR penalty on a >115 speed benchmark, and/or disallowing access to hydro pump/fire blast for faster spreads.

Our Attack and Defenses are not within our primary focus, but still receive a +1 boost from Clangerous Soul. Is there any merit to exploring these stats further and how we might use them to our advantage? For Attack, is it worth investing into when we're likely to run a -Attack nature? For bulk, can we at all take advantage of our heightened defenses when Clangerous Soul cuts into our HP?
The bulk boost / HP cut situation is interesting in that the bulk boosts are effectively negated to the point where the only thing that actually affects CAP's bulk in regards to clangorous soul is its speed stat on the setup turn. We know intrinsically that whether boosted or not, CAP takes the same percentage of total effective health to an attack. Because of this interaction however, we're taking MORE percentage out of our effective max HP if attacked before the boost, so our speed stat could have a large effect on what mons CAP34 can actually set up on.
 
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a fairy

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With Clangerous Soul as a key defining move and the express way we interact with Throat Spray, our effective stats are projected to be much higher than the average CAP operates with. How does losing 1/3 of our HP, and the subsequent +1 to all stats (+2 to Special Attack) influence our individual stats?
I think it lets us be a lot more flexible with a lower BST than perhaps modern CAP metagame viable Pokemon tend to be. An unboosted CAP34 should not be much of a threat, but a boosted CAP34 should be something that an opponent needed to have planned for when seeing it on Team Preview. I think our HP specifically is something we need to consider, because there's going to be a lot of games that CAP34 once they finish setting up is going to be around or below half health. Bulk and a boost can go some ways to patch that up, but the problem with Deoxys-D and Shuckle as defensive walls are not that their defensive stats aren't strong enough, but that their HP stat mostly negates their monstrous stats.

What range does our Speed stat best fall into, when considering both the +1 boost from Clangerous Soul and our priority-immune Ability? Is there value to outspeeding certain Pokemon before boosting?
I think I'm becoming more of a speed fan now that things are more falling into place. I don't think we should be super fast, for example, I don't think Dragapult should need a Scarf (or maybe even a boosting nature...) to outspeed CAP34 before a boost, but I also think after a boost our opponent should be relying on defensive or other specific measures planned through the battle to prevent CAP34 ending the game. I think that there should not be some large group of naturally speedy 'mons that can just come in and force CAP34 out once it does boost, but something like a unique Booster Energy or a Scarf as a means of outspeeding, or a defensive measure like Chansey should also be accounted for by the CAP34 player before moving in.

All this to say, I think that our speed is important, and probably should be higher than I had initially been thinking about.

How high are we comfortable letting our Special Attack and overall Special Sweepiness reach?
In my mind, CAP34 should be coming in towards the end of the game to set up, punching through whatever things are left of the opponent, as well as being able to take out whatever one or two things are left healthy by the time it's ready to sweep. As such, I don't actually think that SpA should be sky high, since we don't need to be like Porygon-Z and OHKO Blissey with a Special Attack move in some bizzare specific circumstances (does anyone else remember that from when Platinum was just coming out?). A boost, an opposing team already bruised up by a battle - this should be a recipe for success. Overlooking or missing a defensive cornerstone in the opposing team should be catastrophic for CAP34, it shouldn't just be able to muscle past a special wall off the back of a notably high SpA.

Our Attack and Defenses are not within our primary focus, but still receive a +1 boost from Clangerous Soul. Is there any merit to exploring these stats further and how we might use them to our advantage? For Attack, is it worth investing into when we're likely to run a -Attack nature? For bulk, can we at all take advantage of our heightened defenses when Clangerous Soul cuts into our HP?
I really don't think we should be investing in Attack. It feels incredibly anti-concept to me to encourage a direction that could lead to a mixed attacker. Other omniboosters (Z Celebrate, No Retreat, etc) focused on one stat just fine, and the end result of a mixed attacker could encourage players to invest in items that improve longevity (like, for example, HDB or Leftovers) rather than Throat Spray. As for bulk, given that we're taking hazards and then losing a third of our HP, I think the boost to bulk is very useful here and isn't something we should just count the +1 as satisfactory and move on from. I'd like to see us not neglect our bulk, though I won't lie - I'm much less knowledgeable on how bulk should be structured, where numbers are placed ideally.
 

Rabia

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hi shnow
Hello all, I'm happy to announce that my body finally decided to stop being sick, just in time for us to delve into the Stats section of 34's process! To start, we need to work out our stat limits to help guide users towards submitting balanced yet effective stats spreads. Do not submit any stat spreads during this stage, but feel free to mention specific benchmarks/ranges as needed for the following discussion questions.

With Clangerous Soul as a key defining move and the express way we interact with Throat Spray, our effective stats are projected to be much higher than the average CAP operates with. How does losing 1/3 of our HP, and the subsequent +1 to all stats (+2 to Special Attack) influence our individual stats?

What range does our Speed stat best fall into, when considering both the +1 boost from Clangerous Soul and our priority-immune Ability? Is there value to outspeeding certain Pokemon before boosting?

How high are we comfortable letting our Special Attack and overall Special Sweepiness reach?

Our Attack and Defenses are not within our primary focus, but still receive a +1 boost from Clangerous Soul. Is there any merit to exploring these stats further and how we might use them to our advantage? For Attack, is it worth investing into when we're likely to run a -Attack nature? For bulk, can we at all take advantage of our heightened defenses when Clangerous Soul cuts into our HP?


I'm instating a soft 72 hour limit for discussion here. It may end up longer depending on how exhausting I am during the work week, but I'll try to keep things moving as best I can.
I think we can afford a more balanced stat distribution than usual with our defining moves set in stone. Bumping Special Attack up too high is probably not the play given our omniboosting nature, but I also think we're likely to have limitations in coverage that can let us avoid nuking it too low ya feel? The key part imo here will be figuring out a good balance to our defenses, as revenge killing CAP34 is going to be A PAIN... Speed boost + defenses boost + priority immunity + Terastallization is... quite trifling... and we may want to avoid going too bulky as a result.

I could see us going as fast as outrunning Gholdengo (ie literally Kommo-o base Speed) to give players the option of attacking it outright instead of boosting in its face. Part of me wants to say even Gliscor is reasonable here, and that's mostly because we're getting a 2x boost to Special Attack; we do have some power cutting from Special Attack available to us.

I think physical Attack can largely be ignored. The option for mixed sets can exist yeah, but I don't see them being too practical outside of maybe teching Close Combat to hit both Bulletproof Equilibra and Heatran while retaining a super effective move for Kingambit. For bulk, I don't anticipate specifically EVing into it, but considering how our natural bulk will afford us more setup opportunities is relevant. For example, we could consider CAP34 having similar special bulk to Iron Treads to see how the Equilibra matchup unfolds:

0 SpA Equilibra Earth Power vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 222-264 (69.1 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is damage versus a 90/70 specially bulky, uninvested Pokemon, so naturally this means you're firmly unable to beat it one-on-one if you plan on boosting against it. If you consider 90/90, though...

0 SpA Equilibra Earth Power vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 182-216 (56.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This becomes actually possible and very easily invested for. Again, this is just one random matchup that I chose arbitrarily and disregarded the potential of Terastallization in, but I think it's very worth considering how we leverage our unboosted and boosted bulk when exploring this stage, specifically what it means for what Pokemon we can set up in the face of and potentially beat as a result.
 
For fulfilling the Throat Spray concept, I think it will be important that base Special Attack is limited enough that 34 needs the +2 to blow past several key targets. If it can do this sufficiently with the +1 from Clangorous Soul, it may be incentivized to run an item that eases setup like Heavy Duty Boots or Sitrus Berry.
 
i really don't have much to say during the stat limits discussion due to cognitive limitations, but i do have some brain splosions:

Because of our ability limiting our offensive counterplay we should be slower than the typical sweeper. At most, i think Walking Wake's benchmark is solid as you outspeed a lot of the metagame but certain pokemon like speed proto roaring moon in sun and booster energy valiant have the opportunity to revenge kill, but such opportunities are only available in certain conditions. Even if it is slower, CAP34 has powerful implications for booster energy fellows because it means you will want to not use them until after CAP34 has set up, essentially having you play a 5v6 until its time for cap34 to go go gadget omniboost. This also allows CAP34 to pave the way for its teammates who also may be checked offensively by the booster users by having them spend their item on CAP34, giving its teammates the opportunity to sweep (or vice versa).
 

quziel

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My instincts here are that explicit limits on SpA or Speed probably don't make a ton of sense. I'm not convinced that like literally porting Naganadel's stats onto this mon would be broken despite having fairly insane special sweepiness just because we're primarily a setup sweeper. We do not have access to our +2/+1 until we spend a turn setting up, so a mon that has an insane offensive statline, even if it becomes really hard to revenge kill, probably is fine if our bulk is so limited that actually getting setup is really hard.

Aka I'm in favor of us having a moderately restrictive BSR limit, and then fairly high individual limits for Special Sweepiness, Physical Tankiness, and Special Tankiness.

We're a one time sweeper, and I think looking at stuff like Hawlucha's effective stats post +2 Spe/+1 Def is probably going to be very informative for our choices of limits. (Keep in mind that Lucha can afford Adamant and we almost def can't).

As for speed stats, just shove us in the vague range of 79-123, with the lower limit ensuring that we can actually sweep once we're setting up, and the upper limit ensuring that Iron Boulder can revenge us. I've seen a lot of talk about Iron Valiant, and that mon is like, not hyper relevant in CAP. If anything consider Roaring Moon.

Edit:
Also keep in mind that every single sweeper in the meta is often called to revenge kill stuff when its typing or abilities give it a substantial defensive advantage. Being faster makes it easier for us to do this because very few teams are ok with playing 5v6 in every match. Being a bit faster and being able to click Clanging Scales to revenge a mon and then do 50% to another instead of sweeping is going to make it substantially easier to use this mon in practice, so I urge folks to not cut off 100+ speed stats here.
 

shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
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Solid discussion everyone, here's what I've gathered so far:

–Speed is integral to our success not only in letting us threaten the opponent after a boost, but securing that boost in the first place because of how Clangerous Soul works (not enough HP = no activation!). Although users don't agree on the upper bound for Speed, having certain Quark Drive/Protosynthesis Pokemon outpace us offers a means of checking CAP 34 after setting up, while also posing a "win condition" on 34 users to try and deny these Pokemon the ability to boost Speed at the right time.

–Getting +1 Speed and +2 SpA is a single turn is lot of stats at once, and ideally we aren't operating as a cheat code to the end of the game after setting up. Fast spreads should lack the high breaking power needed to tear down bulky teams, while strong spreads designed to smash through defensive cores must contend with a healthy amount of Revenge Killers, even at +1 Speed.

–Interest in using our boosted Attack is practically null, and the increased bulk is largely canceled out by losing 33% max HP after Soul. For optics purposes our best approach is to focus on our two best stats, Special Attack and Speed.

–On the subject of bulk, CAP 34 as it stands isn't easy to revenge kill, between blocking all Priority moves and likely outpacing most, if not all of the unboosted metagame after Soul. To compensate, it'd be wise to limit our bulk so that the opponent can somewhat reliably KO us should they have the capacity to (for example, if Booster Energy Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant have preserved their item, they should be allowed to win this interaction barring Tera).

A couple more questions your way while I wrap up my last day of work:

Where do we want our T-Value to lie when factoring our desire to use setup? (The T-Value represents how much our Speed is weighted when rating our stats by factoring in the amount of turns it takes before we get a KO. Generally, lower values punish fast, weak spreads while higher values punish slow, strong spreads.)

How do people feel about having few/no individual stat caps or fairly relaxed limits, but with a much stricter BSR limit?

Would a limit to our "combined bulk" be helpful in ensuring that CAP 34 doesn't end up too difficult to KO on both sides of the spectrum (I.E. the sum of our PT and ST cannot exceed X), or is a simple BSR limit sufficient in restricting our tankiness?
 
Where do we want our T-Value to lie when factoring our desire to use setup?
Having futzed quite a bit with the BSR formula after Hemo, I know, that the T-Value is an awkward parameter for a sweeper, that can expect to outspeed most of the unboosted metagame after a boost. We had a similar issue during Cresceidon where realistically it is meaningless for us, as it only factors unboosted base speed stats and has less influence the closer you get to the fastest speed tiers, which dont really matter for the core identity of this Mon, since in play it’s going to be outspending all unboosted mons. For that reason I’d prefer it to not meddle with the T-Value at all and instead look at BSR penalties for hitting specific speed tiers, as there is still a benefit to being faster, linked to the defense boost of Clangorous Soul And being harder to revenge kill.
 
How do people feel about having few/no individual stat caps or fairly relaxed limits, but with a much stricter BSR limit?
I think it makes sense to have at least a stat cap for speed to make sure we don’t outspeed too much. If we want to still be revenge killable in some capacity, a speed limit is probably in order.

Would a limit to our "combined bulk" be helpful in ensuring that CAP 34 doesn't end up too difficult to KO on both sides of the spectrum (I.E. the sum of our PT and ST cannot exceed X), or is a simple BSR limit sufficient in restricting our tankiness?
A BSR limit probably limits our tankiness enough. It forces us to decide between whether we want more breaking power or more survivability while sweeping, which I think is a good decision to have to make to balance this CAP.
 
I think I'm agnostic on the idea of tight BSR limits, either route (restrictive SS or restrictive BSR) can work nicely, I think.

Would a limit to our "combined bulk" be helpful in ensuring that CAP 34 doesn't end up too difficult to KO on both sides of the spectrum (I.E. the sum of our PT and ST cannot exceed X), or is a simple BSR limit sufficient in restricting our tankiness?
This is a cool idea, but it really needs to be implemented carefully, i.e. a simple sum might not be ideal here. Like for example, why a sum and not a product, to avoid being too tanky on any one side? I don't think a product is necessarily a good idea either, just that this sort of thing should probably be thought through.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
Where do we want our T-Value to lie when factoring our desire to use setup?

Contrary to Amamama, I actually do think that our base speed is going to fairly important for us here, as it very much affects what Pokemon we are going to be able to easily threaten out and generate opportunities to set up on (Example: Let's take Kyurem. If we are <90 Speed, we are just going to take an Ice Beam to the fact and most likely die, but if we are >90 Speed, we can reasonably assume that they probably aren't going to want to stay in at risk of dying to Clanging Scales, and we can potentially use this as an opportunity to set up). For this reason, I actually do think that determining a good T-Value is going to be important here is going to be somewhat important for this process. I personally don't really have an exact range I think would be appropriate here, but I think having a higher T-Value would make the most sense, since we have already sort of come to the consensus that speed is going to be critical to our success. Personally speaking, I also don't see a ton of value in having a high Special Attack, low Speed spread, as it doesn't synergize super well with our kit anyways, at least not as well as a faster but weaker spread would.
 
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