CAP 35 - Part 15 - Post Play Lookback

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spoo

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CAP 35 So Far

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In this stage we will first reflect on the process so far, discussing what we've learned from this process, how this well we have fulfilled its concept, and what impact CAP 35 had on the metagame. After that, we will discuss some possible minor tweaks to the product in order to better fulfill our goals. Please follow the Topic Leader's instructions and don't propose any specific changes until they say so.

Changes allowed:
  • Move additions and removals
  • Changes to secondary ability
  • Small stat changes
Changes not allowed
  • Typing changes
  • Changes to primary ability
  • Large stat changes
 
Hey everyone! So we have gotten to known CAP 35, Shox, very well with the entirety of the Playtest tour as well as the beginning of CAPCL. That means it is now time for us to take a look back and review the process, the product, and the potential of Shox!

In this thread, we want to think about how Shox is currently performing and its place in the metagame as it stands right now. Here are some questions to start:

1. Does Shox successfully present its concept? Is it a successful wall despite having a typing that, on the surface, doesn't have any "redeeming qualities"?

2. How effective is Shox's current movepool? Is it missing anything it should have? Does it have any moves that it probably shouldn't?

3. What did we learn about having an uphill battle during Shox's process? Was the contradiction chosen able to showcase how a CAP can thrive in spite of said contradiction? Yes or no?

4. How is Shox performing in the metagame? Does it need competitively centered changes? Is it a healthy addition to the metagame or has it got off on the wrong hoof?

I wanna give us some time to get through these questions while also completing this in a timely fashion so I am thinking ~72 hours before we get into proposing any sort of buff/nerf package for Shox. Have fun discussing!
 
Poll in CAP chat
December 2024
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Ok I will get the ball rolling:

1. Does Shox successfully present its concept? Is it a successful wall despite having a typing that, on the surface, doesn't have any "redeeming qualities"?

Yea sure he's a fat lil shit. Does feel a bit tera reliant at times but that's to be expected when the concept revolved around a bad defensive typing.

2. How effective is Shox's current movepool? Is it missing anything it should have? Does it have any moves that it probably shouldn't?

I am going to come back to this one at the end because I feel it warrants the most discussion.

3. What did we learn about having an uphill battle during Shox's process? Was the contradiction chosen able to showcase how a CAP can thrive in spite of said contradiction? Yes or no?

Feel like this is the same as question 1, so I will just say again, he is a fat lil shit. Mission accomplished.

4. How is Shox performing in the metagame? Does it need competitively centered changes? Is it a healthy addition to the metagame or has it got off on the wrong hoof?

Tough to say cause it has received hella limited usage. Shox kind of exists in a weird limbo to me of not being bad but also not being the best option on most teams. I think that's because it doesn't fit any archetype amazingly well. It doesn't have much utility on fat because it doesn't actually spread passive damage well. It's role as a para spreader isn't useful to most fat or stall teams because para doesn't force any progress. Now for teams that para is useful for, which would be balances and offenses, shox again just struggles to fit in. You just have better chunky boys that do a better job of synergizing with your offensive threats. So at best, shox's only function is a niche pick that can catch your opp off guard here and there.



Now let's return to moveset discussion because I think that's where the meat and potatoes of this convo is. The abilities are fine and I think stats are pretty much fine, but again shox just doesn't offer much utility rn other than para spreader (which teams either don't need or have better options for), so let's look at how to broaden his horizons.

I am going to suggest many moves here, please let the record show that does not mean I think it should get all of them. This is simply meant as a rudimentary list of moves I think could be fun to consider, so pick and choose what your favorites are or even suggest others.

You can never have enough rockers right? Pretty straightforward reasoning here, just another fat mon that can get up hazards. Surprisingly we don't have a lotta caps that act as effective rockers, there's just veno, mollux, and the occasional snael. Pretty much any mon can get rocks without much justification (e.g., blissey, clef, deoxys, etc) so I don't see a reason shox can't get em too. Having a fat mon able to get up rocks, especially one that isn't the usual ground or rock type, could actually be pretty useful.
What if shox could be more than just be a passive knocker and para spreader? Having the option for a bulky offensive shox could be pretty neat, but you'd need some way to bolster its lackluster offense stats. The moves that make the most sense to me are work up, bulk up, or calm mind since they do not give the immediate offensive presence of moves like swords dance or nasty plot, which is good because we're not tryna totally change what shox is. One trick ponies are just not fun to use unless they do that one trick exceptionally well (fuck you arghonaut) so it would be nice to see shox have more options.
Ok so this one may seem a bit out there but I think it has so much potential. I initially considered a phazing move like roar or whirlwind, but tbh we have enough phazers in the meta so shox would just end up being outclassed again by mons like zama, moltres, and ting lu. So instead, let's give shox a way to not only neutralize offensive threats, but even take advantage of those pesky setup sweepers. This would again expand shox's niche beyond that of a passive para spreader to that of a true uno reverse card to offensive teams.
Pretty much nothing gets heal bell in sv which is actually kinda annoying cause it has a lot of utility. You wanna carve out a niche for shox, how about giving it a rare gem in the form of being able to rid your whole team of status conditions? This would give shox so much more use both to defensive and offensive based teams that I think you'd start to see it more across a range of archetypes, which I believe makes for a very healthy mon.
I'd only consider these moves together and tbh it would pretty much just be to make shox like a pseudo heatran. Cool to trap and kill something like glowking that would otherwise easily switch in on it then pivot out. Could even trap and kill other shoxes. Not as sold on something like this just because it doesn't do much to most mons but maybe still worth considering?
This one is mostly just fun thematically. I mean shox is a bull right. And it's a normal type so, yea that's pretty much it. Would only consider if it does get a move like work up or bulk up tho. Has the niche ability to break screens, making shox a good pick if you think you're gonna get cheesed. Not much utility otherwise tho and prolly wouldn't see much usage.
Both pretty much do the same thing, which is to give shox more coverage against pesky electrics grasses and steels that either can't be para'd or resist its other moves. I also think they just fit his lil bull persona. Paired with a setup move you could actually get some work done against opposing teams, it would also be nice having more physical move options for shox since the only physical moves it currently runs are knock and super fang (which doesn't really count methinks).

Ok I'm done for now. Hope to see some feedback on this cause I think shox can be a really cool addition to the meta with the proper adjustments.
 
Concept success and meta success are largely tied together so I'll give a shot at answering both questions. Shox is not unviable by any means, but it's certainly on the weaker side in terms of meta performance (currently B- on the VR). It’s barely been used in CAPCL and later rounds of its playtest. This isn’t that surprising; we knew from the start that a defensive normal/elec mon would not be easy to fit on most squads, and we were actually intentional about aiming for a lower power level in contrast to all the other crazy stuff CAP has released this gen. Frankly it’s a nice change of pace to exercise a little restraint. That said - is shox still too weak? Did we undershoot our already-conservative approach?

Probably yeah, tho not by an insane amount. It’s fine - good, even - to release a weaker CAP occasionally. From my perspective shox does 3-ish things atm: 1) check ghosts, 2) absorb knock, 3) remove items/spread para/chip grounds/pivot etc (aka general disruption). The first two are the biggest ways it gets on a team; the third is more of a soft skill that helps it not be deadweight in games where 1 and 2 aren’t relevant. This skillset makes it a niche, but decent, fit on fat boots-spam teams whose normal defensive picks like argh, gliscor, gking, skarm, etc struggle with ghosts and absorbing knock from mons like CM clef. Problem is, shox isn’t actually good at doing any of these 3 things. Shox does not beat ANY ghost reliably; pult can run mixed (or just uturn farm for momentum), kitsunoh can run offensive sets with CC (or, again, uturn), your only way to deal with ghold is by passing the buck with a slow volt switch (and if it’s focus blast good luck), and nect is nect. The pool of mons you reliably absorb knock from is really low - most are physical, or are special attackers that boost or have SE coverage. You’re pretty good at spreading your own knock (volt/IB/knock is surprisingly annoying to switch into), but that’s about it.

My main takeaway from using shox is that its matchup spread is simply not big enough. Out of the whole tier, its biggest claim as a defensive mon is poorly checking ghosts. This was an issue as soon as we selected our typing, and I think we realized this, but still failed at expanding its list of positive matchups at almost every following stage. I think shox either needs an ability that opens the door to checking new and relevant mons, enough bulk to statcheck mons like mixed pult and annoying knock off users (hamu, deo-s, etc), or movepool additions that fundamentally change its niche (probably setup). The list of abilities here is very short - and also means we can’t run sticky hold anymore - and I think buffing stats to the moon / pivoting to a setup niche is boring and kinda uninteractive with the concept, but that’s where we are atm.

Shox is a healthy and seamless addition to the meta, it just feels a bit incoherent as a final product. None of its toolkit is really working together in tandem. I didn’t follow this process super closely so it’s hard for me to say “what went wrong” - and to be clear, I don’t think much went wrong anyways, like I said it’s nice to have a weaker CAP. But I’d still like to see a moderate buff handed out here.
 
1. Does Shox successfully present its concept? Is it a successful wall despite having a typing that, on the surface, doesn't have any "redeeming qualities"?

4. How is Shox performing in the metagame? Does it need competitively centered changes? Is it a healthy addition to the metagame or has it got off on the wrong hoof?


Going to answer these two questions together since my response to them sort of overlaps (And because I often do think that metagame success and concept success often go hand in hand together).

Being entirely honest, Shox feels like a very awkward mon to use in the current metagame. While it is fantastic into paraspam cores, that teamstyle is not as popular as it was around the start of the process, and outside of that particular matchup, it doesn't really feel like it particular excels in any sort of regard. A big problem with it at the moment is that Shox's matchup into stuff that it's supposed to beat honestly doesn't feel great. Looking at the various Ghost-types in the tier for example, there's not really one that we reliably wall all that well like spoo mentioned (I kinda disagree with him on Kit just because I think Offensive Kit sets are overrated, but the fact that they are still seeing use makes that sort of besides the point), and we also are very dependent on Tera to really behave as an effective knock absorber at times. Also, while mons like Venomicon and Skarmory have sort of fallen out of style in recent months, us being an Electric-type that has a hard time dealing with them due to our weakness to Body Press still doesn't really spark joy with me and makes the mon harder to fit on teams in general.

We can see how this folded out in recent tournaments. While Shox did have a fairly strong showing in the first half of the playtest, it fell off rather quickly, where it was only used three times in Round 4 and was never used in any match in Semi-Finals or Finals. It's performance in CAPCL has also been quite bad, being brought only a single time where it lost. The latter is particularly egregious for me, since for pretty much every other CAP I have been around for since my return a few years back, the new CAP has been the spotlight of its debut team tour for at least the first couple of weeks.

While I can't say that Shox failed it's concept (In fact I think it executed it quite well), and while it's still got its uses despite the setback we choose for it, I very much do think that some sort of buff is in order here. Realistically, I would prefer that we try to patch up the weaknesses that are holding it back from the roles it wants to do right now over trying to arbitrarily assign it a new one.

2. How effective is Shox's current movepool? Is it missing anything it should have? Does it have any moves that it probably shouldn't?

Tying back my answer to what I said in my previous one, I don't really think there's a whole lot that Shox is missing movepool wise, unless we want to deviate from the direction we took with the process originally. Rather, my issue with Shox sort of feels like its stats are just kinda too low to really be as effective at everything it wants to do to an efficient level, so I would argue that the best course of action here would be to look into improve its stats rather than expanding its movepool. As for any moves that really shouldn't be there, nothing really particularly stands out.
 
Shox's main set of Tbolt or Discharge or Volt Switch / Knock Off / Ice Beam / Slack off @ HDB / Sticky Hold is probably its strongest attribute. The set is legitimately pretty annoying to switch in to, and can blank some of the tier's passive mons.

Shox's issue is that its typing and stats mean that basically any strong physical Fighting or Ground move will force it out, and the tier is lousy with those. Looking at the entire S/A+/A ranks, the only pokemon that cannot hit it SE, hit it with a nuclear physical attack, or pivot on it are Cresceidon, Chuggalong, Garganacl, and Mollux. The mon's typing and stats interact to just give it a ton of bad matchups into very good pokemon.

The mon's still viable despite this because well, its main set is legitimately pretty annoying to switch into, everyone needs a Knock Off absorber, and even if its getting pivoted on by the ghosts it still walls them. Any fixes probably should either hit stats, ability, or completely transform its main moveset.

Having a useless ability (Emorph) doesn't help it either.
 
Agreeing with the sentiment of the thread so far. Shox, while not a terribad CAP by any means because of its unique niches and strong movepool, is still pretty underpowered compared to the rest of the meta largely because of how held back it is by its typing. We can't change that, but what we can do is make it stronger in its existing niches. I'm a fan of the movepool buffs Fragments suggested, particularly Heal Bell, which likely would've already been in Shox' movepool if we weren't in Generation 9. Seriously, its a bulky cow. Given the fact that Heal Bell DOES exist through the Blissey line now, I see no issue in adding it to Shox' movepool if the support is there, because it would give Shox something unique to do with its defensive profile and make it more appealing to the balance teams it finds itself on. It wouldn't affect Blissey's role either as stall needs Blissey's superior special bulk (and also doesn't run Heal Bell on Blissey to begin with). Stuff like setup moves I'm a bit iffy on as there's a big slippery slope with fat setup sweepers getting very annoying especially with the option of Tera (and ESPECIALLY with a mon with literal BoltBeam coverage), and there's also a big chance it just doesn't get used much because its still Shox lol. I would only go with adding setup if there are no meaningful changes to its stats. As for stats, I'm all for some bulk increases so it can do better into Ghosts and Knock Off users. The fact that this mon, whose typing was picked largely to stuff Gholdengo, is literally setup bait for the most common NP Ghold sets is pretty sad. Luckily, there are other mons that Shox can check, but it will need some stat improvements to do it more effectively. Lastly, adding a new comp ability should be a last resort compared to the former two options, but I wouldn't be opposed to replacing Electromorph with something better as that ability is really terrible in this meta and on a passive guy like Shox.

tl;dr my opinions on buffing Shox:

slight movepool buffs to increase niche (Heal Bell is my fave) + defenses being increased is the best combo that makes Shox more appealing in the builder while not creating an A+ tier monster. Stuff like abilities and setup moves should be seen as a last resort and I don't view them as super necessary when the mon we're talking about has a niche already and is not unranked (yet lol)
 
1. Does Shox successfully present its concept? Is it a successful wall despite having a typing that, on the surface, doesn't have any "redeeming qualities"?
I think successful wrt viability is kinda up for debate, but it did mostly align with the goals throughout the process. I think Electromorphosis was a bit of a misstep.

2. How effective is Shox's current movepool? Is it missing anything it should have? Does it have any moves that it probably shouldn't?
This mon both has too many great moves and not enough hah.. In some matchups the mon can run free with Knock Off, Glare, and pivoting, while in others it stares at a Libra or opposing Shox every time it switches in while dealing 6%. Volatile usefulness has been a huge ongoing theme for the mon, and I dont think just adding or just removing moves would be a good solution. It might a bit of both, but this starts to get really messy for reconstruction so I wanna suggest other routes in the last section.

4. How is Shox performing in the metagame? Does it need competitively centered changes? Is it a healthy addition to the metagame or has it got off on the wrong hoof?

Shox is a master of annoyance, having access to a lot of secondary positive qualities for a mon (knock off, pivoting, paralysis) while also being a little resistant to them from other mons too. I do feel decently justified for saying that I dont think piling on these qualities provides viability without a strong primary purpose to be put on teams, and its shortcoming is that it still lacks a bit of purpose.

I'm in two minds as to whether it deserves a buff, because if it was repeated constantly throughout the process that this mon should be a usable addition that doesnt shake the meta, and it's landed exactly where I'd expect this type of mon to land. In that sense, it has been successful. And I do think that if a mon like Shox gets buffed enough it will have an impact on the meta thanks to its arsenal of frankly annoying shit that I dont want to see more of- primarily para spam. However, if it was to be buffed, I think we should maybe consider the rule of Primary not being allowed to be rediscussed. We've approached this ability stage extremely differently than past ones: been experimental with the Primary (knowing the potential for its failure) and then picking a much safer and better Secondary. I dont feel like Electromorphosis has defined Shox even during its process, much less with the final result, and it feels silly to have Sticky Hold on the table as a changeable ability but not Electromorphosis. I truly dont believe that any of the discussions or work during Shox's process will be invalidated in any way by the changing of primary here. Shox has a great movepool (that already has too many moves that it wants to slot in), it has great stats, it also has one decent ability but we could definitely improve it in this area in a much more obvious way than small stat changes. Thats not to say that it needs to be an insane ability either, just something with purpose. But if not, then I'm pretty much fine with leaving the mon as is; if you see it in the builder and find it cute then you can put it on your team without throwing.
 
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(take my opinion with a grain of salt as I have barely played any CAP since just after I got eliminated from playtest)

4. How is Shox performing in the metagame? Does it need competitively centered changes? Is it a healthy addition to the metagame or has it got off on the wrong hoof?

To me, I feel like it succeeds in what it's trying to do, but what it's trying to do isn't really done well to justify a spot on a team over other Pokemon that do the job a little worse, but can kinda do everything else better. Shox's main purpose on teams is a defensive pivot that spreads status and can absorb knock with sticky hold, and sure, knock off absorber is a pretty good niche, but it's useless on stall, as paralysis isn't really wanted over other statuses like burn or toxic, and the teamstyle where spreading paralysis would be most useful, offense/bulky offense, I feel like it dosen't fit, because it can kinda just invite physical attackers too easily, especially ground types hat can afford to take an Ice Beam, especially because Shox's Ice Beam, unless you're Lando or Glisc, dosen't really hit that hard for offensive Pokemon to care, and trust me, I've tried to make Shox work on Offense.

Honestly, I feel like it does need competively centered changes, movepool seems fine but I woudn't be opposed to stat changes.
 
Late post, sorry

Shox is our most honest CAP in a long while and it shows because it's seen very little play in CAPCL, Champs, and the later rounds of its own playtest. Compare how much attention the last three SV CAPs got over the course of their respective breakout tournaments and its clear Shox falls a good bit below the metagame's power level.

This has an unfortunate compounding effect where lower usage rate equates to a much lower degree of experimentation and optimization. Shox doesn't win games: it's not dangerous enough to threaten KOs, and lacks the tools to really bind the opponent in a bad situation. Cresceidon is our other wall this gen and it's quite adept at getting things done between its great speed, strong spammable STABs, and vast toolkit between a hard-to-block TWave and the momentum-sapping encore, or punishing a U-Turn predicting Multiscale with ~25% for free. Shox just wants to slow the match down so your teammates have room to breathe, but its not really built to slot into Stall teams. This means the structures it fits well on are quite specific, and many players would rather avoid using a fairly unproven mon for a more tried-and-true composition.

Going underused means the usual arms race of finding new checks > rapid set developments isn't happening, especially when its not a terribly difficult mon to play around or dispatch of, even if the combo of Knock/SFang/Volt or Discharge is headache inducing. A lot of the mons it'd want to check have ways to win anyhow, which isn't bad for balancing and if we want to be more of a defensive pivot, but I'm not sure if Shox can really serve well as-is for the latter.

I do think we can better define its purpose, as Shox seems to find success more from having a bunch of scattered positive traits instead of being a cohesive end product, but I also think it's nice to have a decidedly niche CAP with potential to come into its own as people continue to innovate. If there's any room for improvement, Electromorphosis is definutely our weakest point. Shox struggles to use the boost well since it lacks a good way to punish every Ground: Ice Beam works against Tusk and Lando but you thud against any Libra and Ting, not even mentioning other special walls like Glowking, Mollux, or Blissey not really caring either way. Furthermore, not running Sticky Hold means you are much more prone to getting worn down. It's pretty much a flavor ability at this point, you'd need to have an insane gameplan to decide on a situational, prediction-based power boost versus the raw consistency of Sticky Hold. If replacing it is strictly off the table EMorph is only going to see serious use if we either bolster our offensive presense or just accept it as a funny OM option.
 
IMPORTANT INCOMING MESSAGE FROM YOUR TL!

So I have seen a wide range of discussion here and in CAPcord and it seems we are all in agreement on Shox needing some form of buff to make it fit a bit better onto the teams it should ideally see itself on. Whether that be a straight stat boost, an adjustment to its core movepool, or replacing an ability seems to be the hot topic of this PPL so I wanna give some thoughts after discussing things with the mods as well as the TLT before coming to a conclusion.

On Electromorphosis
I have noticed multiple users, including myself, point out that, of its two abilities, Electromorphosis just doesn't keep up with the hold that Shox's secondary ability has when it comes to Shox and its sets. While this isn't something we could have seen when doing the initial process for Shox as everything has shaken out, we can almost all agree that Sticky Hold is definitely the go-to ability of the two (now three with Cud Chew) abilities that Shox has. That being said, after a bit of a back and forth amongst the mods and the TLT, it has been decided that Electromorphosis will NOT be replaced as it's an integral part of Shox and has merit in not being replaced as replacing primary ability is one of the big no's of suggestions within the PPL step of the process. Therefore, Shox will be keeping Electromorphosis, Sticky Hold, and now Cud Chew as its three abilities.

However, I have been informed that if an ability change were to be suggested, we can focus on potentially swapping Cud Chew for something a bit more competitively focused. With that being said though, any ability buff package that is to be submitted shall be met with a higher level of scrutiny than other stat/move-focused packages.

On Stat Buffs
I am more inclined to seeing this type of buff as Shox itself is on the lower end of total BST when in comparison to other fully evolved CAPs and we have seen that it just doesn't quite hit the mark in terms of power or bulking hits. This one seems to be the path of least resistance as beefing up its Defense, Special Attack, and/or Special Defense will definitely allow Shox to slot in a bit easier if it can provide the right amount of defense and/or offense to whatever team it may find itself on.

On Movepool Changes
This one I am a bit more hesitant with as Shox has a fairly solid selection of defining moves that allow it to do the things it needs for teams (Glare to spread paralysis, Ice Beam to threaten Gliscor/Ground-types not named Libra, Super Fang for wearing down walls that lack recovery, Knock Off, etc.) That being said, I have seen talk of it being a potentially good hazard setter or remover (even back in the defining moves stage of the process) so I can definitely see that approach as it pairs well with things like Gliscor and Arghonaut to be able to either provide removal or to stack hazards.

And with all that, I am happy to announce that buff package submissions are now OPEN! If you feel like you have an idea on what kinda buff you think would make Shox give the public a shock then feel free to submit something. Ideally I wanna wrap this up definitely by the end of the week so I am aiming for Thursday for a preliminary slate with a final slate on Friday January 31st!

This has been a fantastic ride and we are almost done with it so get on in here and let's make this ox one all the cows will swoon over ;)
 
WIP

Movepool Changes

+Heal Bell
-Glare
-Nuzzle

Ability Changes
Static (Replaces Cud Chew)

Leans more into our defensive capabilities by adding another generically good defensive Ability. Static keeps Pokemon that usually play around us like Kitsunoh and Dragapult honest, as reckless U-Turns against Shox can quickly find them decommissioned as Speed Control. Since we've gained a fairly reliable, passive method of spreading paralysis, I've removed Glare and Nuzzle from our movepool so we're not paralyzing everything we come across. In exchange, Heal Bell provides Shox a new defensive niche as the rare cleric, giving it something to accomplish upon coming in that isn't trying to wear down the opponent for the 10th time or getting its Volt Switch blocked. Shox feels alright as a Cleric given it's immune to the one common Status that can actively prevent you from clicking a move. It does make your other moveslots very awkward but I believe it's manageable, and means you don't need to run Blissey if you want a cleric on more offensively-oriented teams (heal bell chugg is not real). The main selling point here is meant to be Static anyway.

I don't think Shox needs too many changes, it's still being actively experimented with and Super Fang + Knock is kinda terrifying for mons with limited recovery, but it does suck that our Primary Ability flubbed on release.
 
WIP

+6 HP
(136 -> 142)
+10 Defense (81 -> 91)
+10 Special Attack (90 -> 100)
+6 Special Defense (98 -> 104)
+Blizzard

I really think that the primary thing Shox needs is a higher BST. Even if EMorph fell flat, Sticky Hold is still an excellent ability on it, and its movepool is already really solid. Its main problem is that it's just a bit too frail and doesn't quite hit as hard as you want it to. So I decided to focus on bumping up Shox's bulk and Special Attack here, with a focus on physical Defense and Special Attack. I mainly focused on being able to take powerful neutral hits a bit better rather than being able to switch in on stuff like Zamazenta Body Press and Great Tusk Headlong Rush - yes, being weak to those moves sucks, but that's the entire point of our typing and our concept as a whole.

While I was doing offensive calcs, however, I found that I couldn't quite get the rolls on Ice Beam I was looking for without putting like 20 more base stat points into Special Attack, which is obviously a no-go. Out of curiosity, I decided to see how those same calcs would look like with Blizzard instead of Ice Beam and found myself pleasantly surprised. Between Shox putting all of its EVs into bulk and not getting STAB on the move without Terastalization (and let's be honest here if you're running Tera Ice Shox you're either clinically insane or Little Timmy who's at 1030 ELO on the CAP ladder), Ice Beam's 90 BP just doesn't quite cut it. Blizzard's higher BP provides the raw power boost needed to better check Grounds and Dragons without having to go overboard in buffing Special Attack. And yes, while the 70% accuracy does kinda suck balls, I would honestly much rather miss the attack altogether than hit the attack but still miss out on the KO.

+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Hemogoblin Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 226-267 (46.3 - 54.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 210-247 (43 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 151-178 (30.9 - 36.4%) -- 63% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 151-178 (30.9 - 36.4%) -- 63% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 234-276 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bellibolt: 223-264 (45.6 - 54%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bellibolt: 186-220 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
132 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bellibolt: 138-163 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bellibolt: 217-256 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO


0 SpA Bellibolt Blizzard vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 280-332 (79.5 - 94.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Bellibolt Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 384-452 (100.5 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Bellibolt Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 202-238 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Bellibolt Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 174-206 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
0 SpA Bellibolt Discharge vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 152-182 (47.3 - 56.6%) -- 30.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Bellibolt Discharge vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 198-234 (51.6 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Bellibolt Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 320-378 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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WIP

+Seed Sower
+Stealth Rock


-Glare
-Cud Chew

Seed Sower was a good secondary that I was hoping would win because it marginally increases bulk, and more importantly I can see myself considering it for teambuilding. The arguments remain valid; I can understand the logic behind building a team, having a SD Snael or a Zamazenta and saying "If I put Shox here, My bulky sweepers will have additional healing. Or, "If I add Leftovers Shox, my team is basically Salt Cure-proofed".

Stealth Rock is an extremely harmless addition that, regardless of its mediocre matchup vs Spinners, lets you put up rocks and then pivot to a Kitsunoh or other spinblocker if Libra/Mollux/Tusk etc comes in to remove them. This will assist a lot in teambuilding, bc "knock offer and paralyzer" just isnt a full role and Shox needs to be a bit more of a team player.
Glare gets removed because it feels excessive to predict around and it already has a lot of great moves. The mon is already usable, so I'm focusing more on making it more splashable. But also, tempering its negative impact if it does start showing up more. I would consider not submitting the Glare removal if the children are yearning for Glare but I feel like the best set is knock off+boltbeam anyway.
 
WIP

+Magic Guard
+Stealth Rock


-Cud Chew
-Glare
-Nuzzle

This mostly got inspiration from posts above, but I'm thinking Magic Guard could allow Shox to hold Helmet to make progress vs U-turners, or hold Lefties / Cloak, while still being immune to Hazard damage. Could also copy Clef's homework by holding Barb and transferring it to Libra later after Knock and Rapid Spin.

I agree that Electric Stab / Slack / IB / Knock is already a strong set, and SR could be slotted next to IB or Knock to give more purpose.

And minusing out two options for para to kind of try to balance MG out. Without Nuzzle it will have to rely on the chance of Discharge to para a Taunter or Gholdengo or Magic Bounce or whatev.
 
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WIP
Movepool Changes

+Flamethrower
+Surf

Ability Changes
+Analytic

Stat Changes
+10 Defense
+10 Special Attack (to adjust)

Reasoning:
I need to write it fully when im home
The goal of this package is to make Shox less passive in a similar way to how electromorphosis was supposed to, and have more flexibility in how it handles switch ins. It aims to do so by giving shox more options to choose from in terms of coverage to hit common pokemon like gholdengo, kitsunoh, equilibra, kingambit, ect ... And to reduce its reliance on pure utility to punish switch ins.

One of the things that prompted me to propose this was playing around in the calc with a special attack invested set and seeing steam buns such a set in the championship tour. The additional power is not just very desirable, I think it can be essential on shox in certain situations, and allowing shox to have this kind of power without investment means it gains all the benefits while not cutting into its bulk.

This buff in power does not make shox a wallbreaker by any means, and does not remove its natural checks (as seen in coming calcs and the number of slower mons that commonly switch into it)
It also comes as a cost since it prevents it from running the very useful sticky hold, so it doesn't have to always compete with the pure utility set but instead gives it another option to make it a better fit into more teams.
The stat buffs of course also help the sticky hold set
 
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Final Submission
+18 SpA
+6 Def
+10 SpD
-18 Atk
136 / 73 / 81 / 90 / 98 / 56 (534) -> 136 / 55 / 87 / 108 / 108 / 56 (550)

Shox is very weak and gets taken advantage of by many strong mons. It is also too frail. This package tries to fix that. This package does not move the needle for Shox, aka nothing fundamentally changes about the mon –– but at the very least, the mon has a stronger foundation to stand on. Instead of being a below average niche defensive piece, the hope is that we're now a regular average niche defensive piece. EDIT: toned down some of the special attack buff and returned speed to normal

Shox @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electromorphosis
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Def / 72 SpA
Calm Nature
- Discharge / Volt Switch
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Milk Drink
Relevant new benchmarks: OHKOs -1 SpD Great Tusk with Ice Beam, 3HKOs Gholdengo and Ogerpon-W with Discharge, or 2HKOs after emorph (66 into 33), survives 2HKO from +2 Ogerpon-W Tera Ivy Cudel

Shox @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electromorphosis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 184 HP / 72 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Discharge / Volt Switch
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Milk Drink
Relevant new benchmarks: same SpA benchmarks as above, survives 2HKO from Specs Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam under sun if you Tera water after switching in (66 into 33)

Other benchmarks I was considering:
+25 Def: 0 Def avoids 3HKO from Samurott-H Ceaseless Edge
+7 SpD: Max SpD avoids 2HKO from Chuggalong Stored Power
+9 SpD: 0 SpD takes less than 50% from boots Kyurem Draco
+11 SpD: Max SpD avoids 2HKO from Specs Kyurem EP
+14 SpD: 0 SpD avoids 2HKO from uninvested +2 Tera Fairy Ghold Dazzling Gleam
+18 SpA: OHKO Landorus-T with Ice Beam after rocks
-27 Spe: underspeeds Slowking-G

Other ideas:
Huge Power + Foul Play: boosting the power of dark-type attacks is huge in our matchup vs ghosts, and foul play means we legitimately check stuff like ogerpon-w. However, the calcs against ghold were still really sad, and this ability change means that getting burned is exponentially worse for us, sorta backfiring by making it harder to switch in vs ghosts. You can give out Heal Bell too, but then we're super strapped for slots and can't be used alongside Gliscor.
Water Bubble + Surf: I was never serious about this but it does work pretty well lol. This gives us a consistent way of pressuring all ground-types instead of having to pick between beam/fang, gives us a fire resist (which we don't utilize very well but w/e), and gives ghosts one less way to punish us. Plus the frog flavor is there. Two signature abilities is kinda crazy tho.
Thick Fat: Shox needs resists. Thick Fat gives resists. Neither Ice or Fire are very useful, though; they unlock virtually no new matchups.
Mirror Coat: This sounds genuinely useful on paper - it gives you a means of OHKOing stuff like kyurem, chugg, iron moth, darkrai, ghold, etc - but the catch is that this is probably a bottom 3 set to play vs, or even to use. Every turn is a 50/50, not fun.
Bulk Up: Body Slam + Knock sounds decent on paper - probably not an issue for balance to deal with, but maybe hard for offense to break after one or two boosts, barring a few obvious mons. That's how it is in my head, not sure how this actually plays out in practice - setup feels hard to predict in general, and is a really big role departure
Roar: This has potential ngl but offense has been nerfed enough already in this tier
 
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Final Submission

+6 HP
(136 -> 142)
+18 Def (81 -> 99)
+19 SpA (90 -> 109)
+10 SpD (98 -> 108)
-9 Spe (56 -> 47)
-8 Atk (73 -> 65)
(BST: 534 -> 570)

Seeing how easily Blizzard got into Final Movepool made me realize that I might have been overhyping it a bit. So I decided to revamp my submission and went all in on stats like I originally planned. spoo's package also made me realize I was a tad too conservative with the stat buffs in mine so I decided to follow his lead and do some stat swapping. I still didn't really want to go too overboard - I mainly just wanted to trim off a bit of Shox's excess fat and put some of the Speed and Attack it wasn't really using into its bulk and Special Attack. This allowed me to get much better calcs than my previous package - we do a much better job at tanking attacks overall and can even handle stuff like Gliscor and Venomicon a bit better!

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 206-246 (42.2 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 152+ Def Venomicon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 242-286 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 0 Def Venomicon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 192-228 (39.3 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Hemogoblin Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 211-249 (43.2 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 195-231 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 162-192 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 141-166 (28.8 - 34%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bellibolt: 218-257 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Landorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bellibolt: 138-164 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bellibolt: 217-256 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bellibolt: 181-214 (37 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bellibolt: 145-172 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 20.6% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bellibolt: 211-250 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Bellibolt Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 248-292 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Bellibolt Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 336-396 (87.9 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Bellibolt Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 178-210 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Bellibolt Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 154-182 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
0 SpA Bellibolt Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 140-166 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Bellibolt Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 152-180 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Bellibolt Discharge vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 164-194 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Bellibolt Discharge vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 212-252 (55.3 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Bellibolt Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 344-408 (64.4 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Bellibolt Discharge vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snaelstrom: 138-164 (35.7 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
0 SpA Bellibolt Discharge vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Venomicon: 182-216 (48.7 - 57.9%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
 
Final Submission

+Magic Guard
+Stealth Rock


-Cud Chew
-Glare
-Nuzzle

Magic Guard could allow Shox to hold Helmet to make progress vs U-turners, or hold Lefties, while still being immune to Hazard damage. Could also copy Clef's homework by holding Barb and transferring it to Libra later after a Knock and Rapid Spin.

I agree that Electric Stab / Slack / IB / Knock is already a strong set, and SR could be slotted next to IB or Knock to give more purpose.

And so minusing out two options for para to kind of try to balance MG out.
 
Hello! I don't normally post on forums for process stuff, because it takes a me long time to articulate myself well. But I might be the only person consistently winning with shox right now and most don't seem to share my opinions on it, so here I am.

First of all, I think shox came out really well in every aspect, so I'm glad it's main abilities are off limits for changes. It is a little unfortunate that emorph ended up mostly overshadowed by sticky hold, but not really surprising given how strong of an ability sticky hold is in this format. I will admit that like many other options in its kit, I overestimated how good emorph would be when I first saw that it was chosen, it is by no means a bad ability and is definitely not useless on shox as some have claimed. But consistently abusing it is very hard in a metagame run by 2 different ground types both defined by having unusually limited counter play.

That last point is the first of a number key weaknesses shox has, that have contributed to it being seen as in need of a buff by many. I'm going try break down each of them, as well as the major mistakes people have been making when using shox, to explain why I think shox has been severely underrated. Then give my thoughts on the kinds of changes shox should or should not receive.

Chapter 1: You suck

Next up is the stat distribution... it's fantastic! But, very hard to optimise when crafting a set and makes fitting shox on to teams a little weird. When it comes to investing in bulk, Shox has a very awkward hp stat relative to defences. The hp is not high enough for it to be optimal to invest in both defences before hp, when going for mixed defences, like it is with alomomola. But also not low enough for ev points put into hp to have a significant impact on its overall bulk, like with most defensive pokemon. But then the stats are also too well rounded to have a really consistent and distinct role, that would otherwise make it obvious. Shox not yet being in the damage calc exacerbates the problem much further to the point that people generally just don't know what spreads to run. (I will explain what evs I think it should use later in the post)

The confusion doesn't stop there either, the move and item choice on shox is pretty consistently suboptimal from what I've seen and found through testing. For example despite it being a great move, shox should absolutely never under any circumstances run super fang on any set, pretend the move doesn't exist when using shox. On the other hand ice beam should absolutely never under any circumstances be dropped from any set, consider the pokemon to have only 3 moveslots because ice beam is the first. And most surprisingly to me is that volt switch usually not worth it outside of certain teams.
Unsurprisingly however, people have caught on to knock off being shoxs' main niche and strongest asset, though there is sometimes justification to drop it favour of glare. The reason ice beam is mandatory, despite knock off being optional, is that every reason you have to ever use shox is shut down by gliscor, unless you have ice beam. Ice beam is also just very consistently useful even when you aren't facing gliscor. Super fang isn't an option because, for a variety of reasons, it's always worse than knock off and you never have enough moveslots to run both, but if shox becomes more meta relevant I can see the move being worth it for the mirror.

Chapter 2: what do I do the second time?

But with this established we run into another problem, consider this situation: you brought shox on whatever you're using it to check and you click knock off as they switch to libra/ting-lu, awesome, that's progress. Now because you don't have super fang you switch out and they set up hazards/doom desire, the game goes on.
Eventually shox comes in again, its lost a fair bit of health because it's relying on natural bulk not resistances to take hits, might have even been burned by kitsunoh, but you have a bigger problem: there's no point clicking knock off, you know what's coming in and volt switch is off the table, you could always milk drink but then you've lost even more momentum and lastly ice beam can't offset the damage you're taking.

I think this is where a lot of people are writing off shox, now obviously if you know what's coming in that's really a valuable thing which you can exploit with double switching and there are a million ways to account for your pokemons weaknesses in the teambuilder. But this is generation 9, a good pokemon shouldn't need to outplay to gain an advantage, what's stopping you from using slowking galar who makes progress just by being on the field?
A lot of the buff suggestions in this thread would seem to make a lot of sense here: surf? that'll show those ground types, stealth rocks? yeah now you have another button to click! +40 bst? uhh yes please, +calm mind? ok, calm down, MAGIC GUARD? You want to deny ALL progress??

All of these suggestions are wrong.

Chapter 3: you still suck.

I can guarantee you are doing one of these things
- using shox too passively
- using it on the wrong teamstyle, without adequate support
- not letting it specialise
- running the wrong item
- not abusing tera well

Let me elaborate, we've learned that hp investment has dimishing returns and that we need ice beam yet it struggles to make progress, the solution is simple; CRANK that special attack slider, at least half way. Shox is a monster at trading it just needs a little help in the damage department, bolt beam coverage, great bulk, paralysis, knock and only 2 weaknesses mean that if anything wants to take out shox they need to be willing to be crippled beyond saving. With the rest of the evs you need to pick one defensive stat to give 252 and a positive nature, whatever is left can go into hp or speed.
For the item you have a few choices Leftovers, boots and sometimes assault vest or rocky helmet. Most shox are just boots but if you aren't running volt switch or mono boots you should actually be leftovers, give shox a reason to stay on the field and give your opponent a reason to deal with it now, you can think of the pokemon more like heatran and less like chansey. Without boots you obviously need some hazard control but thats ok because you are playing create a pokemon not ou. Shox might be a support pokemon but it needs help to thrive, a way to burn its checks is an absolute godsend because those matchups are entirely flipped, wish goes a long way too.
Don't be afraid to drop a move that seems important either, milk drink and stab are both optional and can be passed up for paralysis, para is really really strong.

Chapter 4: so what do we do?

Personally I'd be fine with nothing changing about shox but I know that's unlikely, so in my opinion there are four categories of potential buffs

1: ABSOLUTE NO-NOs
This would be magic guard, calm mind and any drastic stat buffs. These would all not only be overkill but almost certainly end up getting nerfed or being very unhealthy additions to the metagame.

2: Not gonna help
This includes stealth rocks and every other ability change I've seen, shox already has 4mss and I just can't see stealth rocks making the cut 99% of the game given it's matchup into the removers and how good the other rockers in the tier are. Any other ability is either going to be downgrade compared to what it already has or not synergise as well with its kit.

3: Will work as intended but maybe not for the better
This includes moderate stat buffs and adding surf or other significant coverage buffs. Surf would cover up many of shox major weaknesses but I don't think it can coexist healthily with ice beam and I think replacing ice beam with surf would just make the pokemon considerably less interesting for a number of reasons.
By moderate stat buffs I mean between 15-25 total bst added to relevant stats. It likely wouldn't give us a broken pokemon just a very good one, but for what purpose? Not every cap needs to be top tier, I believe restraint is a good thing.

3: Good Changes, No Complaints :)
Minor stat buffs, especially to special attack, or small movepool additions, stuff like snarl/roar/haze/foul play/bulk up, to help more defensive sets with setup pokemon.
 
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idk if i have a ton of time to work on my own sub but im p big on either spoo or starfalcon's subs. i have for a while believed that shox is more underdeveloped than underpowered but it's stat spread isn't doing much to help it in the applications it's currently found. the more offense-heavy tank builds seem like a decent fit for both our abilities and i think we should bolster those more as the defensive set can work it's just very awkward, and would benefit from us hitting harder anyway.
 
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