CAP Updates: Krilowatt Discussion

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#26
Well gonna do it first

I suggest Static well cus you know, electric and static. It's pretty self explanitory. In case that's too competetive... give it illuminate lol
 
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LucarioOfLegends

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#27
Just as a basic thought, we could always give Kril the CAP staples Telepathy and Illuminate. Plus or Minus are also some pretty common options.

Into more interesting abilities, I think Battery is a more interesting route that can be taken, as it reflects it electric typing fairly well, and is a doubles ability only. I'm personally fine with Static, but its pretty bland in my opinion, and Cyclohm's got that covered already.
 

snake_rattler

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#28
I'm going to suggest Battery. It's useless in singles. Krilowatt looks like one too because it's tiny. It's a little shrimp battery.
 
#29
We could go a few different routes for Krilowatt's flavor ability. Its current abilities aren't all that flavorful, so something that references either its typing or its design would be optimal. Static, Battery, and some of the other abilities brought up so far play off its Electric typing nicely.

Outside of Electric-themed abilities, I think that Shell Armor does a good job lining up with Krilowatt's design. Fellow aquatic invertebrates such as the Kingler and Crawdaunt lines get the ability, and it doesn't overshadow either of its current abilities.
 

jas61292

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#30
As neat as Battery sounds, I think from a flavor perspective, it would not be that great, for the simple reason that if Krilowatt was to get a hidden ability, it likely would have gotten it in Gen 5, when Battery didn't exist. Now, I do know that there are some Pokemon that have had their hidden abilities unreleased and then later changed, but as a general case, I personally prefer abilities that existed in Gen 5. Some suggestions that have already been brought up that I do like include the electric themed Static, Plus, and Minus, as well as Shell Armor and Illuminate.

Beyond these though, one idea I had that I kind of like is Wonder Skin. Rather than trying to go for something associated with its look or typing, Wonder Skin is more about playing on its other abilities, Magic Guard and Trace. Both of these are strange and magical, and Wonder Skin fits right in with them, without being all that useful. I would hardly consider it a competitive option; why would you try to make things like Toxic miss, when you can just be immune to its damage and get other benefits. But, it keeps that whole mystical feel, while technically not being completely redundant.
 
#31
I like Battery the best out of those suggested thus far, as it seem fairly interesting and has no chance of outclassing any other abilities. My onlu hesitation with this is that is currently a signature ability, but that is generally of little concern for CAP mon anyway, unless they are legendary abilities (and even then *cough* Rev and Air Lock *cough*) In the similar vain, Plus or Minus seem like pretty interesting abilities that could work. I think we should stick with something that matches Krilowatt's electric typing regardless of what flavor ability we chose.
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
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#32
Personally, I like Battery, Plus and Minus.

An ability that sounds stupid at first but when you look up Krill it makes sense is......Schooling.

Krill gather in extremely large numbers to make a massive group. It won't be a competitive addition as it won't actually activate on Krilowatt.
 
#33
Alright, so I just scrolled through the list of all Pokemon abilities. I came up with some that I have no reservations about and some that I do. Personally, I believe that it's going to be very hard to overshadow Magic Guard, so we should focus our efforts on not overshadowing Trace. To achieve this, I was inclined to look at some doubles only abilities.

First up, we have Minus and Plus. Being an electric-type Pokémon, Krilo would fit right in with the Manectric line for Minus and the Ampharos line and Dedenne with Plus. It doesn't particularly matter which one, as they're both useless in single battles, since the opposite ability is needed to make the ability function. If you're looking for an electric-themed, singles-useless ability, these two cut it pretty well. A similar ability in this category that I'll make note of here, though I don't particularly care for it, is Battery. It serves a similar function to Plus and Minus, being electrically themed and only working in Doubles, however it is a signature ability and the only Pokémon that currently has it has a design specified to fit that ability, hence why I don't support it for Krilo. I merely mention it for the sake of thoroughness.

Moving on to abilities with no technical use or no important use in singles, I believe Damp and Illuminate may fit the bill. Damp only affects Explosion and Self-Destruct; moves which are objectively seen used very little in the meta. Seeing as Krilo is a shrimp, and shrimp live in the water, which is wet, Damp thematically makes sense. The Pokémon in game that get it, excluding the Paras line, all are different types of aquatic and semi-aquatic life. Hence, there is no reason a shrimp could not get it. Illuminate is a bit more random, but personally I just see the bright yellow lines on its body, and they look to me like they would glow in the dark. That's probably just me, but I'll throw it in the mix anyways.

Lastly, I come to abilities I can see as working thematically, but might overshadow Trace. Trace is already marginalized by Magic Guard, so we really shouldn't be trying to even come close to overshadowing. regardless, I put these forth as hesitant suggestions, merely acknowledging them as flavorful in some manner. First up is Hyper Cutter. The potential benefit to this is that it increases very slightly the ability of Krilo's physical set through making it immune to the Attack drop from some moves and Intimidate. Again, it's super niche, especially since Krilo's physical set is currently pretty terrible; however, if we end up slightly expanding that set's capabilities, the ability may become a bit more useful. As for the flavor aspect, Krilo (I believe) is based off of a pistol shrimp, which are known for having one large, more powerful claw that can create an instant of cavitation that comes close to 4,700 degrees Celsius, rivalling the surface of the sun (5,500 C). I could explain more, but it's mostly just about that claw. Keeping this moving, next is Shell Armor. As anyone who has ever cooked with non-deveined, non-peeled shrimp can tell you, shrimp have a shell. They're not terribly sturdy or anything, but they exist. The ability itself pays homage to that shell. The potential benefit is that the already semi-bulky Krilo now gains an immunity to critical hits. Krilo doesn't currently have a form of recovery outside of items, so it's not a terribly big deal, but it's still something worth consideration. Lastly, I come to Hydration. A variety of aquatic Pokémon get this ability, so I extend that notion out to shrimp as well with my mention of it here. Really the only flavor for this is that it's associated with water types, and shrimp should generally be kept hydrated to let them live... There's also that weird thing from like, the 70s, with the brine shrimp that you could put in water (That's what Sea Monkeys were in case you didn't know). The competitive possible use for this is the ability for Krilo to run Rain Dance (possibly Z Rain Dance), Rest, and then two attacks to basically just keep staying alive until it runs out of PP. Out of the three abilities I'm reluctant with, I'm most so with this one, due to the potential to just overcome anything that can't outdamage Krilo, but it is slightly flavorful and requires a specific, possibly underwhelming set. I don't know, I haven't experimented with it. I believe it is the most likely to outclass Trace out of my suggestions, so I urge extreme caution if you may want to consider this one.

Anyways, that's all I really found, so I'm going so respond to some of the ideas posted in the time it took me to write all of this. Hmm... I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought Illuminate was a thing... Battery, again, signature ability and Charjabug is designed to look like a 9-V battery so... I'm quite hesitant on that. Static I think is interesting... It fits the electric typing very well, but I'm pretty sure the ability to passively punish many physical attackers with status would directly compete with Trace, which is basically a luck of the draw ability that depends on what your opponent happens to bring. Wonder Skin I personally think falls into a similar box as Static. It can fit, yes, and I myself even briefly considered it, however the ability applies to ALL non-damage moves. That means if we give Krilo a bit more expanded status movepool, Taunt might suddenly become useful, and then Wonder Skin has more use than Trace. I don't think it's a bad suggestion, I simply want to point out that there may come a point in the future where that ability overshadows Trace, which we're trying to avoid. Telepathy is interesting, and definitely not overshadowing. It plays on the mysical aspects which jas pointed out in his post. My only thing is that Telepathy appears to only be on Psychic types or legendaries. The only exception is the Noibat line, and I'll be honest, I have no clue why they get it... Maybe it's something with echolocation or folklore, I honestly don't know. Schooling is a form change ability, so while it does not technically activate on Krilo, I'm sure the program would bug out or something weird like that. Besides, according to the internet, the most reliable of sources, shrimp actually don't school. If they do, it's usually during spawning season. If we're talking about krill, then it's called a swarm of krill just as much as a school I guess. You learn something new every day I guess. Anyways, I think that was everything, though I might have missed something.

If you're wondering my personal preference, I quite like Hyper Cutter if it isn't too useful. After that I like Plus/Minus, Illuminate, and Damp.
 
#34
Of the flavor abilities that don't overshadow, I think I like Hyper Cutter the best because it gives Physical Kril a way to bypass Intimidate but at the cost of recoil on Wild Charge, which I would support giving Kril as an improvement over the weaker Thunder Punch. It's useful without overshadowing and highlights an element of Krilowatt's physical design.
 
#36
I'm really liking Minus because there's two lines of Mons with Plus as their Hidden Ability but only one with Minus. Balance must be restored!

Hyper Cutter works too, for the reasons Deck Knight outlined. Shell Armor might be nice, too. If we do either of these Abilities, is it possible to move Trace to Hidden Ability?

Illuminate's not a good fit, as it only appears on a few Mons that are well known for producing light. Even Pokemon like the Mareep and Shinx lines don't get it, so Krill's Tron lines aren't really going to cut it.
 
#37
I'm not a fan of Hyper Cutter, as if we give is physical coverage, Hyper Cutter would be the ability ran most of the time. I'm a fan of Minus for the reasons mentioned above. Another thing I like is Battery, as it fits with the idea that it's name is based off of a gigawatt.
 
#38
While Hyper Cutter may benefit Krilowatt's physical sets, it has its uses in Singles, which we would prefer to avoid during a Consistency update. However, Battery fits with Krilowatt's name and its antennae's resemblance to light bulbs.

Schooling is hard-coded to only work on Wishiwashi, so it was meant to be a signature Ability. This does not include Abilities that just have poor official distribution, such as Triage. Revenankh gets it, though.
 
#39
Anticipation may be an idea for a flavour move. It does have some use, sure, taking the guessing game out of whether or not Krilowatt gets hit by a Super Effective Grass or Ground Move, but given that outside of a few niche sets, it's pretty obvious what hits Krilowatt hard, so it's got less effect that way, and with Trace and Magic Guard up, it's got less ability. Plus, IIRC, it showcases to an opponent when it shudders, which would give it away to an opponent that you're not running Magic Guard, even further reducing its utility.

The other one is Compound Eyes. Looking at its moveset, the current choices are all 100%. Of its other moves (Italised STAB), it affects Fury Cutter (123.5%), Metronome (I assume it affects the moves generated through that), Cut (123.5%), Toxic (117%), Thunder (91%), Giga Impact (117%), and Thunder Wave (117%). Now, this doesn't include additional moves chosen for, but unless you're taking Thunderbolt away from its moveset, Compound Eyes has very little competitive oomph outside of a slightly more accurate Thunder that will still be guaranteed to fail at the most critical time unless you have Rain up - in which case you're 100% any way.

A slightly awkward one may be Corrosion. Given that it's a shrimp/krill, and are often seen to be eating sewage, would something that uses Rust around water outlets "corrode"? The only competitive use I could think of is that you can sack a low HP Krilowatt to hit Mega Metagross or Ferrothorn with a Toxic - but that drops it's coverage to take on Electric or Poison types.

Finally; Defeatist. It's a flavour move, right. Short of it being Entrainment in this instance, it literally serves no purpose, even in theoreticals. I mean, it's a Shrimp.

I also echo further Battery and Minus suggestions.
 

boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
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#40
Consider this a 24 hour warning for the Hidden Ability poll. In order to avoid a meaningless split between Plus and Minus, only Minus will likely be slated because it has received more support.

Tentative slate:

Minus
Battery
Static
Illuminate
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
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#41
I'll throw in my hat for Wonder Skin.

It fits with the rather mystical vybe of the other two abilities rather well.

It also doesn't outclass the other abilities as all of the attacks that would be targeted at Kril that Wonder Skin affects either doesnt disturb Kril at all (Glare, T.Wave) or would be ignored by MG (Toxic, WoW)

I like Hyper Cutter and Shell Armour as well, more than every current ability on the slate other than Static and Illuminate.
 

snake_rattler

CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
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#42
As we've seen with Cyclohm, a Pokémon with acceptable bulk can abuse Static pretty well. While Krilowatt doesn't have reliable recovery, I feel like Static is a level higher competitively over the rest of the slate. IMO it shouldn't get slated, even if it doesn't abuse it as well as Cyclohm.
 

boxofkangaroos

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#43
Alright, as it has been 24 hours since my last post, it is time for the poll. After some time looking over it, I have come to agree that Static is generally too good for a flavor ability and would ultimately be just about as good as Trace. For that reason, Static will be removed from the slate, and Wonder Skin will replace it due to the support it has been getting. The final slate:

Minus
Battery
Illuminate
Wonder Skin

A separate poll will be posted shortly.
 
#44
Alright, as it has been 24 hours since my last post, it is time for the poll. After some time looking over it, I have come to agree that Static is generally too good for a flavor ability and would ultimately be just about as good as Trace. For that reason, Static will be removed from the slate, and Wonder Skin will replace it due to the support it has been getting.

A separate poll will be posted shortly.
After talking with box, we've decided not to slate Wonder Skin for its 50/50 interactions with Sleep moves, Pain Split, Parting Shot, Taunt, etc.

The final slate:

Minus
Battery
Illuminate
No Flavor Ability

Poll will go up shortly.
 

boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
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#45
After two polls, we have determined that Krilowatt's new Hidden Ability will be Minus. A pleasant flavor ability with zero competitive use.

Now we move on to the real meat of Krilowatt's Update process: Move discussion. Now, of course, bear in mind that this is a Consistency Update, but there are some elephants in the room that we clearly need to address. Those elephants being Volt Switch and Scald. These two moves are found on practically all Pokemon of their type, but the utility effects that they provide may drastically change Krilowatt as a Pokemon. To initiate discussion on these two moves, I will propose these questions:

1. Imagine Krilowatt had access to both Volt Switch and Scald. How would this impact Krilowatt as a Pokemon? Would these moves increase the Krilowatt's versatility and set diversity?
2. Should we include Volt Switch and/or Scald? Or should Conservation be valued over Consistency?

Note: Please do not make useless, unjustified generalizations about damage. Include relevant calcs for any damage-related arguments.
 
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jas61292

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#46
Let me preface this by saying that, as an Electric/Water Pokemon, there is good reason for it to get both of these moves. This is not like Plasmanta where it intentionally was not given them in the past. They simply didn't exist at the time, and as such, I feel that, unless there is good reason not to give them, then they are absolutely moves Kril should be getting.

So, with that said, Kril should absolutely get Scald. While Scald gives Kril the ability to burn which it didn't previously have, Kril doesn't have recovery, and is quite simply incapable of running much of a bulky or utility set well. Scald will not change this, because it still lacks any sort of recovery or other key utility moves. Furthermore, the Burn nerf means Scald is arguably inferior to Surf on offensive sets. In 5th or 6th gen, the burn chance could easily make up the damage differential on top of the added utility, but that is simply not the case anymore, and while it could be use over Surf without being a bad option, it is not going to be all that different in the long run. Competitively on Kril, it simply doesn't open any new doors, and so there is no real reason for it not to have it.

Volt Switch I am less sure about. Like Scald, it is a weaker option than what it has, but it actually has significant utility. I'm not sure yet how I feel about this one, so I will wait to give a real opinion, but at first glance, I think it would be fine, as Kril is honestly not that strong to begin with, and so the drop in power from Thunderbolt really hurts a lot more than it would other Pokemon.
 
#47
I think that both of these moves should be added too. As jas said, Kril didn't get Scald and Volt Switch since they didn't exist in gen 4, as they are almost universal move on Water and Electric mons, Kril shouldn't be an exception.

Among Krilo checks/counters which "really" mind being burned there are things like Ferrothorn, Necturna, Tapu Bulu, Mega-Scizor and Malaconda. I don't feel that the potential burn is enough to use Scald over Surf. Krilowatt isn't a defensive Mon as he doesn't have any way to Recover himself, the only set which really befenits from this addition would be the CounterCoat, but other than that, Scald doesn't provide a huge change in my opinion.

Volt Switch is bigger of a change though, especially since Krillowatt is able to threat every Ground Type not named Gastrodon with Surf and Ice Beam and since he gives no shit of entry hazard thanks to Magic Guard. It will also give a place to Krilo on Voltturn (Tapu Koko, Tornadus-T and Syclant should be some really good partners), but Krilo still lacks of power and the hit-and-run strategy doesn't allow him to reliably beat his current checks.
 

snake_rattler

CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
is a CAP Contributor
#48
Krilowatt @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch / Scald
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Krilowatt mostly runs Water-type STAB because...it gets the STAB boost and that's important when you have only 83 Special Attack. With Volt Switch, you can pivot from Pyroak and other bulky Grass-types. Scald capitalizes on Krilowatt's bulk. A couple of calcs regarding Scald vs. Surf where it's best to use Water-type STAB

vs. Flame Orb Colossoil
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Colossoil: 330-390 (81 - 95.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Colossoil: 374-439 (91.8 - 107.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

vs. Levitate Stratagem
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stratagem: 335-398 (104.3 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stratagem: 377-447 (117.4 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs. Marowak-A
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 304-359 (116.4 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 338-400 (129.5 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs. Volcarona
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 242-289 (77.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 273-322 (87.7 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Basically, we won't see it running Surf anymore if we give it Scald. I don't really see a reason why not to give it Volt Switch, but being able to pivot out of Grass-types would be a pretty big change.
 

nv

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#49
1. Imagine Krilowatt had access to both Volt Switch and Scald. How would this impact Krilowatt as a Pokemon? Would these moves increase the Krilowatt's versatility and set diversity?
This would definitely impact Krilowatt's role as a special attacker because both moves provide major utility to its current set and as snake showed, there is absolutely no reason why Scald wouldn't be used over Surf due to the minimal decrease in power coupled with a now 30% chance to burn physical attackers. Volt Switch also gives Krilowatt a role it never had before as a pivot, but in my opinion this just adds more utility to Krilowatt, which is what it needs to be a consistent threat due to it being completely walled by most common special walls such as Pyroak. Granted it does change Krilowatt's role, but it puts it in a more effective role as it is a pivot that is not weak to entry hazards or worrying about being worn down by status thanks to Magic Guard. I feel like they wouldn't necessarily help its set diversity so much as its versatility since Scald and Volt Switch give it's STAB moves a bit of utility at the cost of power, which becomes a pretty big issue when you factor in Krilowatt's average Special Attack stat. I feel the best way to increase set diversity is by adding some unique physical options (particularly Wild Charge and Liquidation) as it would allow for it to run an effective physical set alongside its special set but I don't want to "polljump" so I will leave that be for now.

2. Should we include Volt Switch and/or Scald? Or should Conservation be valued over Consistency?
I feel like it will be fine to include both of these moves as it gives Krilowatt's special sets some major utility and since that sort of lines up with its original concept, it would be neat to allow Krilowatt to "fullfill" that. I don't think that these will "change" Krilowatt's output in the tier as it still loses to all the mons it would lose to except it now has ways to "cheese" them via burns or pivoting. Granted, that seems like too much but when you factor in the power drop from these versus the current moves it uses (Surf and Thunderbolt) coupled with its average attacking stats means that the drop in power is felt a bit more than it would be if it was a different mon.
 

boxofkangaroos

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#50
Alright, I apologize for the wait, but I'd say it's about time for a 24 hour warning. I want to hear more viewpoints on whether or not Scald or Volt Switch should be included, so that we can choose whether to poll or just auto-include them.

So far, it seems that the general consensus is that Scald would pretty much replace Surf in Krilowatt's main moveset, and that Volt Switch could significantly change Krilowatt's role by allowing it to pivot out from Grass-types and allowing it to fit well on VoltTurn teams.

Carry on with this last bit of discussion!
 
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