Tournament CAPTT 6 Pre-Tour Discussion and Planning Thread

[cbrevan]

CAPTT 6 Pre-Tour Discussion and Planning Thread​

As the titles alludes, this thread will be for discussing and planning of this year's CAPTT! Usually the metagame mods handle this behind closed doors, but based off some feedback from last year, we'd like to host an open discussion thread so that the community has a greater say on how CAPTT 6 will be decided!

Now, some things have already been discussed and decided by the mods. Namely, tour size and the general timeline we want this tour to follow. We would like to field six teams with five formats, which is in like with the size of past CAPTTs. We plan to start the tour in early July, the exact date TBD, as to give the metagame some time to settle once DLC 1 and CAP 27 drop while also being close enough to both that their will still be a lot of space for development. This timing will also place the tour in the metagame between both DLC 1 and DLC 2 and CAP 27 and CAP 28, so we won't have another mid-tour Equilibra situation like last year.

We've also decided to put some restrictions on what formats are up for discussion. We're mandating that the majority of the formats we field be SwSh CAP; this is to ensure the tour is focused on our most popular and relevant metagame. All formats have to be CAP related, for obvious reasons, and CAP 1v1 is banned from the tour as it is currently a random format. Past generations are up for discussion, as well as CAP OMs; we just ask that people keep in mind the resources, development, and playerbase associated when discussing potential metagames for CAPTT.

So, let us know what formats you'd like to see in CAPTT 6. At least two of the five slots must be be SwSh CAP, the other three can be any combination of eligible CAP metagames, such as past gens and maybe some OMs. Some examples of possible combinations are 1 bo3 SwSH / 3 Swsh / 1 SM, 1 bo3 SwSh / 2 SwSh / 2 SM, and 3 SwSh / 1 SM / 1 other metagame, such as ORAS or CAP MnM.

If you're interested in a captain potion, check out our signups here.

 

[MrDollSteak]

As far as CAP 1v1, it is currently a random format on Showdown, but there has actually been a CAP 1v1 Teambuilding Tournament on the 1v1 subforum recently which could actually work quite well. Ultimately players bring teams of three (currently no limits but that may want to be worked out) more in line with normal 1v1 formats and then select one Pokemon to use, and repeat until there's a win of Bo5. I'm not necessarily saying that we have to use the format, but just felt like pointing out that CAP 1v1 could actually work as far as a 'non-random' format. I think it has to be run through a room tournament command which isn't ideal but food for thought in any case. It is technically a 1v1 OM as opposed to a CAP OM, but the fact that it uses CAP Pokemon I think would make it eligible.

EDIT: I've now linked to the CAP 1v1 OM format post to give an indication of how it works, and the kind of resources it has here.

Another metagame that I personally really liked from the previous CAP TT was Little Cup. I know that currently there is no CAP LC option on Showdown but I think that it could be done using a room tournament command. I know that currently a range of prevos don't have full movepools and things sorted, but I believe this is something that could be done in a Discord update process in time for the tournament, and would be a nice way to showcase Astrolotl's prevo (assuming its completed in time) and Justyke in action!

I realise that these two metagame suggestions aren't exactly 'main format CAP SWSH' but I think would do a good job of showing off the CAP process, and make full use of the Gen 8 transition with things like updates, etc. I would personally imagine that a line up of 3 CAP SWSH, 1 CAP LC SWSH and CAP 1v1 (non-random) SWSH be a really good way of showing off the full range of CAP's possibilities in Gen 8. I'm not opposed to previous generations of course, but I think that keeping formats confined to SWSH metas is perhaps more reflective of the changes that CAP has gone through this generation.

EDIT: I think rebranding to CAPPL is a reasonable idea (and that a trophy shaped like Malaconda's apple would be perfect)

 

[G-Luke]

Firstly, can we get this 15 likes to change the name to CAPPL?

To some more serious discussion, for the OMS, I think this iteration of CAPTT should forgo the CAP NFE and CAP LC formats. The Prevos have yet to be updated to Generation 8, and with little to no development, I fear that these metagames will be stagnant. I think this is especially true for CAP LC, as this was a problem last generation well, as users found that 3 year old sample teams were being used in finals with no issue.

For this reason, I think that unfortunately CAP UU should be skipped over as well. Quite frankly, no one knows how this plays, and spinoffs like CAP UU require a thriving and fast developing main CAP metagame to properly function, as last generation, we picked the line up from CAPs B rank and below. Due to our late start with the updates and the Dynamax fiasco, the meta itself has seen little development until recently. I think these metas are better off for next year's rendition once both the main CAP metagame and themselves have undergone sufficient growth.

If we decide to do CAP OMs at all, the more relaxed and easier to grasp candidates such as CAP + STABmons or CAP Monotype seem like better options. These metagames are more intuitive like CAP NFE or LC, but are also not held back by the limitations of un-updated Pokemon. They can also bring a good playbase from the OM and monotype community respectively.

We could also realistically go for no OMs this year, and focus on properly developing the existing main metagame. Unlike last year, we most likely won't struggle to find past gen players, as most of our current crop have also been present throughout USM.

These are my personal suggestions and opinions, and I will be happy to support / participate in CAPPL CAPTT regardless of whatever direction we may choose to go!

 

[Mx]

While I think there are many ways we can structure this tour, I believe that final format should be 3 SS / 1 SM / ??. CAPTT is always one of the best ways to further develop the metagame, so having less than 3 slots for the current generation would be a huge missed opportunity, especially considering how many changes are coming to the current meta (Astrolotl, DLC, potentially Clefable being banned). USUM seems like the most obvious other metagame to include, even the last tour of this format didn't have many signups. Most people still somewhat remember how this metagame was like, so they could help testing or serve as substitutes if their team needs it.

The last slot seems pretty uncertain to me. Another SS slot could definitely work here, last year we had 4 slots for the current gen and I don't think filling them was a huge issue, but a CAPTT with only 2 formats seems a bit plain to me. ORAS is usually what would usually fill this spot, and it would have the advantage of being more accessible than other OMs, but its active playerbase has always been very small. Other metas (whether that is CAP Monotype, CAP Doubles, CAP LC, or CAP MnM) could also work if enough people show interest on them, but in my experience, these metas always have the problem of being very insular, with very few people actually understanding the meta while the rest is helpless, something I've never been a fan of.

Personally, I'd choose ORAS, as it is relatively easy to pick up for people that play SM/SS, but I wouldn't be opposed to other metas if enough people show interest on them.

EDIT: Ngl, I would be in favor of rebranding to CAPPL, as it would be more in line with the rest of Smogon and therefore easier to understand for new people.

 

[Pipotchi]

As far as CAP 1v1, it is currently a random format on Showdown, but there has actually been a CAP 1v1 Teambuilding Tournament on the 1v1 subforum recently which could actually work quite well. Ultimately players bring teams of three (currently no limits but that may want to be worked out) more in line with normal 1v1 formats and then select one Pokemon to use, and repeat until there's a win of Bo5. I'm not necessarily saying that we have to use the format, but just felt like pointing out that CAP 1v1 could actually work as far as a 'non-random' format. I think it has to be run through a room tournament command which isn't ideal but food for thought in any case.

After all the work and hype of creating 1v1 as a playable format it seems like it would be a waste to not include it especially when there isnt a better replacement option

 

[Jordy]

The argument that ORAS is more accessible than Other Metagames is pretty moot. The resources available, while they are existent, are incredibly outdated. Last year, the Smokomodo's were just using ORAS OU resources and taking slight spins on it for CAP; the resources available don't really help with understanding the ORAS CAP metagame for a multitude of reasons. I know of several other teams that experienced this same issue. The basic issues with Other Metagames apply to ORAS CAP too. Ultimately, I don't think including ORAS CAP will benefit teams, and will instead only make it harder for teams to fill slots if anything.

I personally favor the following format: 1 SS CAP Bo3 / 2 SS CAP / 2 SM CAP. This format maximizes the amount of SS CAP games played, meaning the metagame has the chance to evolve at a much faster pace, while still maintaining room for multiple SM CAP slots, a metagame that is still loved by many. I don't think filling 2 SM CAP slots should be a big deal for teams considering the reasonable turnout for the SM CAP tournament.

 

[STABLE]

Hello, CAP 1v1 Council Member here.
While I cannot say I'm familiar with how CAPTT plays out, I've participated in my fair share of team tournaments. As it seems right now, it appears the 5th slot seems hard to agree on, given how there aren't many developed CAP OMs to choose from. First of all, I must ask, howcome is CAPTT using a 5-slot format instead of a 6-slot one? The big majority of team tournaments use an even number of slots, so it just seems weird for CAP to go against the norm.

Second of all, I would like to present the reasons why CAP 1v1 should be included in this year's iteration of CAPTT.
The metagame already has developed resources here, with a dedicated Council, a functioning VR that will be updated soon, complete Speed Tiers and Sample Teams. A Set Compendium is also present in the randomized ladder metagame thread, and it will be re-adapted and included in the resources thread.
A CAP 1v1 Tournament is also going on in the 1v1 sub-forums here, and it's proceeding smoothly.
The amount of players that are currently interested in the metagame is enough to satisfy the request of one player for each team, adding up to the fact that multiple CAP players could just pick up CAP 1v1 in case of need. This would also expose the CAP metagame to the very large community that is 1v1, making it likely that some players from the metagame shift over and get interested in this one.

Most of all, it's also just a very fun format, and there is no harm in adding it to CAPTT. I expect a considerable amount of 1v1 players to sign up just to play the tier so you could even add another slot if you so feel like it.

 

[quziel]

Hello, just posting here to provide my support for a change from CAPTT to CAPPL. When promoting, trying to get people to consider, and otherwise publicizing CAPTT one of the first questions is basically "what is it" because well, we are the only format on site that uses the TT suffix to describe our premiere league format, and changing to the more recognizable CAP PL would increase clarity, and really help to recruit people to play.

That's all I have to say.

 

[Voltage]

Hello, just posting here to provide my support for a change from CAPTT to CAPPL. When promoting, trying to get people to consider, and otherwise publicizing CAPTT one of the first questions is basically "what is it" because well, we are the only format on site that uses the TT suffix to describe our premiere league format, and changing to the more recognizable CAP PL would increase clarity, and really help to recruit people to play.

That's all I have to say.

Echoing this sentiment. I've had some people ask me if "Team Tournament" means that there's a bracket and you make a team of three or so and then the winner of the match up move on. CAPPL provides uniformity with other tiers and familiarity for users who might not be sure.

As for tiers played, I really like the idea of the following lineup:
1 SS (Bo3)
2 SS
1 SM
1 SS LC / SS NFE / SS 1v1 / Other Wildcard

The Bo3 format is radically different from a Bo1 and lends itself to a lot of interesting play that would be really beneficial to see in this metagame. I think the other Bo1 metas are pretty straightforward, and I think the last meta could easily be any of the following since there is development. I'm against ORAS CAP just because it's incredibly inaccessible and many of the resources are very old and out of date. WE had this problem last year, and I've seen little to no development of resources in the year since CAPTTV

 

[Eris]

Hello! I plan on participating in this season of CAPTT (or should I say CAPPL now..) so I wanted to drop some opinions on what I'd prefer format to be. As an FYI I do support the name change despite it being uglier both vocally and writing wise, but I agree that it would be a better way of promoting this tournament.

Before I talk about my preferred format I wanted to bring up the possibility of having 6 slots instead of 5. I understand it might be tradition but since we're considering rebranding CAPTT into CAPPL it would only be right to follow update the format as well. This is something I'm open to talk about, I think having the option of ties does impact most team tournaments quite positively as teams aren't out in the middle of the tour as well as the bonus of tiebreakers becoming a possibility. The overall score system could change to Win (2points), Tie (1point), Loss (0 points) or something similar to it.

Slot wise I've seen a couple of posts about CAP 1v1 and I personally really believe it should be included. From what I've seen it is the second if not most played CAP Tier. I have also seen many contributing to it both on discord, forums and PS so it wouldn't feel fair for any other formats to take up that slot when oldgens are pretty much inactive.

Concerning other OMs I don't know how worthy they are, from what G-Luke mentioned CAP LC has had very little metagame improvements throughout the last seasons and I don't think any metagame discussion has started since gen8. Also just like CAP NFE I've been made aware that the prevos aren't actually updated movepool wise so I don't think they should really be considered for now. I'm not close to CAP AAA, MnM or Stabmons but looking through forums I don't think they have had any metagame direction or resources they could rely on.

Furthermore I'm also debating the point of having a bo3 ss slot, I've talked to a few people and most seemed to not mind so I won't be going on about this issue since it might just be me. I just am not a very big fan of bo3 slots since they demand a lot of team building as well as a lot of focus from the player themselves. I don't think it's a mandatory slot to have but I am not fully against it per say, just questioning if it is really something the community wants.

I think this is enough for now but I thought I'd leave my ideal format for this season below, I think these are quite fair, a bit unsure on whether CAP 1v1 prefers bo3 or bo5.

3 SS CAP / 2 SM / 1 CAP1v1 (bo3 or bo5)

 

[Steam Buns]

Figured I'd make a quick post with my thoughts, firstly I think its a no-brainer for CAPPL to have both 6 format slots and that non-randomised CAP 1v1 be one of them, the possibility of draws makes for a better tournament overall as the number of teams with a chance for playoffs stays higher longer into the tournament. Furthermore CAP 1v1 is the perfect option for the sixth slot given that it appears to be very popular and the player-base doesn't directly overlap with CAP there shouldn't be any trouble attracting enough players to fill an extra slot.

On another note, I'm a little biased here but I would love to see ORAS included as a format rather than a second sm slot or om, for starters I don't think any CAP oms are really developed enough to be reasonable choices, while 2 sm slots would be fine I beleive it'd be much more interesting to have another unique metagame and that we should represent both playable past gens.

Admittedly ORAS resources are a little lacking, if it were included as a slot I'd be interested in helping to update resources in time for CAPPL

1 SS CAP bo3 / 2 SS CAP / 1 SM / 1 ORAS / 1 CAP 1v1

 

[Mx]

I've warmed up on-random CAP 1v1 a lot, as seems like a very promising format. It not only has decent resources like a VR but I think its simplistic nature means that is much easier to get into it compared to things like LC, which has much more complicated mechanics one must learn. That being said, I'm still uncertain about some of its aspects. In particular, I fear that a 1v1 metagame with just 29 mons might end up devolving into a simple rock-paper-scissors game before the end of the tournament, so I'd like to see if others think this could be a problem or is just me being paranoid. Also I'd like to see if anyone think there are any broken/unhealthy elements in the metagame, as those should be addressed before the tournament begins.

I definitely understand the arguments against ORAS, but I think outside of CAP 1v1, other formats would run into the same or even worse issues, as metas like LC have no resources at all for Gen 8. SM might still be fresh in our memories , but 2 slots would still be very excessive for a tier that only had 13 players in its last tournament. Even if we're forced to use SS and SM as the only formats, I think 4 SS / 1 SM would be much preferable, as I just don't see the demand for more than 1 SM slot.

 

[Felucia]

CAP 1v1 is a fun metagame, but I question the competitive viability of both random and non-random CAP 1v1, and don't think it should be in this tour

1 SS (Bo3)
2 SS
1 SM
1 SS LC / SS NFE / SS 1v1 / Other Wildcard

with that, I want to echo this, with the wildcard meta being either NFE or UU.

Edit: I realize I was lacking in my explanations here.. I think the biggest argument against ORAS vs something like LC, UU, NFE, or even 1v1 isn't that there's a lack of resources, but imo rather the fact that ORAS is old and different enough to be mechanically unintuitive. LC/UU/NFE will at least use a base format that we're all familiar with which then translates into a different set of bans, but ORAS (and SM, but SM is sort of still fresh in our memories) is different both in terms of mechanics and metagame composition, and would probably get a lot less SS players willing to adapt than an SS-based metagame would

 

[Jho]

Hey there, we've been discussing this a lot and discussion in here has been great and we think we have most of an idea of what CAPTT's slots will look like.

1 bo3 SS CAP/ 2 SS CAP/ 1 SM CAP - these 4 slots will be in CAPTT regardless of whatever else we decide.

some options we are looking at are :-

5 Slots
1 bo3 SS CAP/ 2 SS CAP/ 2 SM CAP
1 bo3 SS CAP/ 3 SS CAP/ 1 SM CAP
1 bo3 SS CAP/ 2 SS CAP/ 1 SM CAP / 1 SS CAP 1v1

6 Slots
We're also considering expanding to 6 slots, which might look something like this:
1 bo3 SS CAP/ 3 SS CAP/ 2 SM CAP
1 bo3 SS CAP/ 4 SS CAP/ 1 SM CAP
1 bo3 SS CAP/ 3 SS CAP/ 1 SM CAP / 1 SS CAP 1v1
1 bo3 SS CAP/ 2 SS CAP/ 2 SM CAP / 1 SS CAP 1v1

Personally, I agree with the arguments that CAP 1v1 isnt really competitive enough or explored enough to be a part of our most prestigious tournament but since it had a little support we decided to include it in the options here. Please bare in mind that if you are posting support for a format which includes CAP 1v1 be sure to explain how you think the innate uncompetitiveness can be overcome.

I will be voicing support for this option:
1 bo3 SS CAP/ 3 SS CAP/ 2 SM CAP
SM CAP was greatly developed last year and was a fairly enjoyed metagame towards the end (after the Equilibra nerfs of course). Not only is it a diverse metagame that most players are familiar with, it also has relatively up to date resources comparatively to all other options. This option also gives us a great amount of SS CAP games which will give us a great look at the current gen meta and lots of development following the recent DLC release. I also like 6 slots more because ties are a big part of PLs and I think having them is preferable. The only worry with this format would be getting enough users to fill all the slots but I think that should be fine, CAPTT usually has many signups both from inside and outside of the CAP Community to fill the slots up.

 

[Voltage]

I will be voicing support for this option:
1 bo3 SS CAP/ 3 SS CAP/ 2 SM CAP
SM CAP was greatly developed last year and was a fairly enjoyed metagame towards the end (after the Equilibra nerfs of course). Not only is it a diverse metagame that most players are familiar with, it also has relatively up to date resources comparatively to all other options. This option also gives us a great amount of SS CAP games which will give us a great look at the current gen meta and lots of development following the recent DLC release. I also like 6 slots more because ties are a big part of PLs and I think having them is preferable. The only worry with this format would be getting enough users to fill all the slots but I think that should be fine, CAPTT usually has many signups both from inside and outside of the CAP Community to fill the slots up.

Parroting this. Marjane sent me some cool thoughts about having 6 slots instead of 5 (ties being the biggest thing here). I've already made it clear I really enjoy having a bo3 option since the gameplay is so radically different when compared to a bo1 format. Additionally, SM CAP is a metagame I still think has a lot of merit and plenty of developments that are still to be seen. Additionally, we're not so removed from SM that people have completely forgotten how Gen 7 metas work in contrast to how CAPTTV was decently far from ORAS by the time it was held. I'm also really not a big fan of CAP 1v1 the more I think about it and I think that the formats here are ultimately going to be the most accessible for all players involved, especially if we draw players from outside of the regular CAP sphere like we have in the past..

 

[Steam Buns]

I'm also on board with what jho has suggested, by the looks of things I'm the only one with any interest for including ORAS so it doesn't make sense to do so, as for 1v1 the main reason I recommended including it was that it seemed like the best way to draw players, while being an interesting and unique meta, however if we are confident filling slots won't be an issue and that 1v1 isn't particularly competitive we are better off just sticking to SS and SM CAP

 

[MrDollSteak]

I will be voicing support for either of the two following options, with a preference towards the 6 Slot option over the 5 Slot option:
1 bo3 SS CAP/ 2 SS CAP/ 2 SM CAP / 1 SS CAP 1v1 (bo7)
1 bo3 SS CAP/ 2 SS CAP/ 1 SM CAP / 1 SS CAP 1v1 (bo7)

I've highlight the bo7 as an option just to make it clear that it won't just be one round of CAP 1v1. While bo5 was something that was mentioned before because of the start up tournament, for a format like CAPTT (or CAPPL ...?), a bo7 will give a lot of room to let team builders shine, and show off a diverse range of sets and strategies, and to minimise as many elements of random chance as possible. I do agree that it is a very different format from either SS CAP and SM CAP, which is why I believe that it is probably better as an additional format in the 6th slot.

Warning: wall of text incoming.

I personally don't understand the argument that CAP 1v1 (I'm talking about the non-random format of course) is innately uncompetitive or inaccessible, and would like to speak to what I think are the perceived issues with the format. Firstly, although games in CAP 1v1 are much quicker, there are still a range of important decisions that need to be made both in terms of team-building, and in terms of the battles themselves, which is even more pronounced in a bo5 or bo7 format, where you have the ability to pick a few different teams. I see choosing the Pokemon to be sent out as similar in many cases to predicting switches, where, if you've chosen correctly will be in an advantageous position. Of course, making a punishing decision effectively loses a match, which I imagine is one of the main bases for the argument that the format is uncompetitive. I personally believe that the same is arguably true in a 6v6 standard Pokemon battle, where losing a key team member can lead to the whole team being nullified, in which case the only chance to overcome a losing position is through predicts of your own or hax etc. In CAP 1v1, rather than being able to swing that specific losing match, you gain valuable information about how your opponent plays and their team, which can allow you to take another match later. In this regard, rather than necessarily being about being able to change the course of individual sets, its about the overall match of four.

CAP 1v1, is also, in my opinion, competitive, because it is a format that requires a deep knowledge of matchups, opposing possible spreads, and EVs as it gives the player a lot of room to play around with and customise their sets which can be the difference between winning and losing a match. The format rewards players for being prepared, and predicting what combinations could cause your team trouble, in a manner that is a bit more absent in 6v6 matches where you have other Pokemon in a team to patch up weaknesses. For example, I link to Sansho's different Smokomodo sets here. As can be seen, by EVing the Choice Band set in a certain, previous guaranteed losing matchups are now transformed into winning ones (ignore Technician, the sets used to run Mach Punch before Superpower). In this regard, smart team building and sneaky tech options in terms of EVs and move slots are incredibly effective. Certain matchups change from unfavored to favored quickly with correct reads about opposing sets and selecting appropriate moves. It is absolutely possible to analyse the opponents team in the preview and make estimations about what each of the sets are, and what they are likely going to send out, and subsequently pick the best Pokemon to take on who you think will be sent out. While it may feel a bit like rock, paper, scissors sometimes, it's a bit more complicated when you are bringing Pokemon that can swing losing matchups depending on the items, moves and EVs they're carrying, and can lead opponents in different directions. If played right, many of these matches can look arbitrary, especially when one Pokemon can outspeed and OHKO the other, but that shouldn't invalidate the decision-making process that went on in the background whatsoever. Picking a random collection of CAP 1v1 mons, with random VR movesets, and sending whichever one you feel is the strongest in isn't going to get you very far in this format. Ultimately, it's about percentages and choosing the most effective lines of action. As far as hax coming into play, all I can say is that it's Pokemon. There will absolutely be games where someone loses a match due to RNG burns or crits, but the same is true for 6v6. There are a few 90% and above favored matchups which will be lost by burns or confusion or flinching and that's just something that has to be accepted. It doesn't mean that you've made the wrong choice or not played as well as you could.

I'd also like to address the question of accessibility. In comparison to some of the previously mentioned OMs (not including SM of course), you will be hard pressed to find a format with as comprehensive resources. The sample teams that we have been building show off a range of team compositions that avoid being 3-0d by opposing sets, as well as how much choice and customisation needs to be taken into account when designing teams. One resource that we are currently developing over at CAP 1v1 is a comprehensive matrix of match ups between sets, listing percentages, something that no other metagame has been able to do, due in part to the comparatively small Pokemon and set pool, as a means to inform our VR and ensure that we have the most accurate resources that we can possibly have to allow for people not really familiar with CAP 1v1 to get a sense of the metagame at large. One this resource is completed, CAP 1v1 will be unmatched in terms of allowing new entrants to the format to look through teams and sets and find a trio of complementary CAPs that allow them to take down threats.

Last but not least, not that this is the most compelling argument in terms of competitiveness, one benefit that I think cannot be overlooked about CAP 1v1, is how much attention it has had in this thread from players that are generally not involved in the CAP ladder or CAPTT. What I think this shows, is that having CAP 1v1 on the bill will encourage new players to join in and monitor the tournament.

 

[Wulfanator]

CAP 1v1 should not be included in CAPTT. After watching through the replays of rounds 1-3 for the tournament stableprince linked, I see this as not very competitive and simply devolves into rock-paper-scissors at best. In most cases, you can predict exactly what each player will send out and who wins based on the "optimal" match up. Very few replays surprised me with picks and/or the result of the match. In 6v6, you can at least dig yourself out of misplays, bad RNG, or a bad match-up, but in a gamemode where the battle can be won on the very first turn, you're just out of luck in most cases. I think picking a format that best reflects the type of gamemodes we design CAPs for is the better move.

I support 1 SS CAP Bo3 / 2 SS CAP / 2 SM CAP

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I think 1 SS Bo3 / 3 SS / 2 SM are probably the best choices here as stated better by others. CAP ORAS is now two generations behind us so the number of people willing to devote time to it will be lower than ever. I would actually support CAP UU and CAP LC for this...if they were actually metas at this point. They simply have not had any play so far and since we lack metagame resources for them I do not think we could pursue the metagame at the professional level we tend to like for CAPTT.

As for CAP 1v1, I think it simply comes down to "its random and its difficult to get good play when its random." I would absolutely suggest CAP 1v1 if we were actually able to build teams for it and follow 1v1 banlists, but as the meta is currently laid out players have absolutely no control over their teams. For reference outside of the CAP label, it's like asking the big Smogon Tournament Organizers to include Challenge Cup 1v1 into their big professional format.

I understand CAP 1v1 is a big subject of "new toy syndrome" but I simply don't think it is a format we will be able to create good, professional play out of.

Edit: Meant to put three SS, I think 6 slots is good

 

[STABLE]

As for CAP 1v1, I think it simply comes down to "its random and its difficult to get good play when its random." I would absolutely suggest CAP 1v1 if we were actually able to build teams for it and follow 1v1 banlists, but as the meta is currently laid out players have absolutely no control over their teams.

That is only for the ladder metagame. CAP 1v1, if included in CAPTT, would not be a randomized metagame, players would be able to build their own teams and pick whichever team they want. (as seen in the startup tour here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-1v1-start-up-tournament-round-2.3665736/)

After watching through the replays of rounds 1-3 for the tournament stableprince linked, I see this as not very competitive and simply devolves into rock-paper-scissors at best

I can see where you're coming from. 1v1 takes place in very few turns which basically shifts the focus from being able to make a high amount of decent plays to a small amount of great plays. Teambuilding is very important and most 1v1 players spend hours in the teambuilder just for a few teams (I know I do, at least). Playing the metagame is also a lot of preparation (seeing how the player has picked in the past games he's played, if he has a mon in particular he likes to click more than others etc.)
Games also vary match-up from match-up, with lures being a great part of the metagame. There's a lot more thought behind it than it seems, especially if one has never played the tier before.

The tour is also the first ever representation of CAP 1v1 in a tournament setting, so teams/picks are gonna be somewhat predictable. Once the metagame standardizes, with CAP 1v1 in the competitive setting that is CAPTT will see a lot of innovation and high level play, trust me.

Idk I've played 1v1 for 2 years now and I've participated in numerous tours, and I've never seen notice of "uncompetitiveness". Everytime I have won it's because I had a smart idea while teambuilding or I was able to read my opponent, and everytime I lost I could identify exactly the mistakes I've done that brought me to lose.

 

[cbrevan]

I'm advocating for 1 Bo3 SS / 3 SS / 2 SM as the formats we should use. I think a heavy emphasis on Gen 8 will be good for us as its both the most accessible and relevant metagame, and would benefit the most from whatever developments come out of CAPTT. I also agree with whats been said about six slots, more players being involved and chances for ties are things we should be encouraging.

I'm against 1v1 and all other CAP OMs that have been brought up. My reasoning is simple, they're all underdeveloped for a tournament meant to showcase high skill level CAP matches. I understand the appeal of using CAPTT to bring in players from other metas, but I don't believe that we should be compromising the quality of the tournament to do so. If we want to attract other players to CAP, we need to do so through long term encouragement in forum tours, hosting resources, outreach to other communities, and so forth. Speaking from experience, simply including a metagame in CAPTT and expecting both a playerbase and developed metagame to come about from it isn't realistic.

As far as 1v1 goes, the metagame is clearly not ready. Its current implementation is unsuited for competitive play, and constructed formats are still unexplored as 1v1 + CAP hasn't been explored as much as 26 CAPs in a bring 3 choose 1 format. I honestly couldn't tell you how CAPs would interact with top 1v1 threats, and I think much of the CAP community would say the same. I can't even say a definite banlist is in place for CAP 1v1 to account for any changes CAPs would make to the metagame, and if we don't have a definite banlist in place for a metagame, how could we think of including it in CAPTT? This goes for LC, NFE, MnM, Monotype, and all other CAP OMs. Have they been explored to the point where the top of the metagame can be identified? Have the players proven that it is balanced? Are there resources for that CAP OM specifically, and not just resources for the parent OM? If not, then including it in CAPTT benefits that OM's community more than it does for the CAP community. Unless a CAP OM is proven to be accessible, competitive, and balanced, I will not be comfortable with them in CAPTT.

 

[MrDollSteak]

As far as 1v1 goes, the metagame is clearly not ready. Its current implementation is unsuited for competitive play, and constructed formats are still unexplored as 1v1 + CAP hasn't been explored as much as 26 CAPs in a bring 3 choose 1 format. I honestly couldn't tell you how CAPs would interact with top 1v1 threats, and I think much of the CAP community would say the same. I can't even say a definite banlist is in place for CAP 1v1 to account for any changes CAPs would make to the metagame, and if we don't have a definite banlist in place for a metagame, how could we think of including it in CAPTT? This goes for LC, NFE, MnM, Monotype, and all other CAP OMs. Have they been explored to the point where the top of the metagame can be identified? Have the players proven that it is balanced? Are there resources for that CAP OM specifically, and not just resources for the parent OM? If not, then including it in CAPTT benefits that OM's community more than it does for the CAP community. Unless a CAP OM is proven to be accessible, competitive, and balanced, I will not be comfortable with them in CAPTT.

I didn't want to post again so soon but I need to address this point because it's clear to me that there is a misunderstanding of what the CAP 1v1 format is, because players have preconceptions about it and aren't following the links provided that showcase the format and its resources.

CAP 1v1 as it is being argued for in this thread is not a random format. It is a 1v1 OM that only uses CAP pokemon, Non-CAP Pokemon are banned. There are specific resources in the form of sample teams, viability rankings, speed tiers, and very soon a set compendium and match up matrix. These resources are more detailed than any of the other OMs mentioned, and subsequently don't see the validity of the comparison. Ultimately the answer to all of the raised questions are yes. Yes there is a banlist, yes there is a list of the top CAPs in the format, yes the format is balanced in so much that teams can counter opposing threats through lures and set customisation and yes the resources are separate from the parent OM.

CAP 1v1 should not be included in CAPTT. After watching through the replays of rounds 1-3 for the tournament stableprince linked, I see this as not very competitive and simply devolves into rock-paper-scissors at best. In most cases, you can predict exactly what each player will send out and who wins based on the "optimal" match up. Very few replays surprised me with picks and/or the result of the match. In 6v6, you can at least dig yourself out of misplays, bad RNG, or a bad match-up, but in a gamemode where the battle can be won on the very first turn, you're just out of luck in most cases. I think picking a format that best reflects the type of gamemodes we design CAPs for is the better move.

This is certainly fairer criticism, especially in terms of how the format can appear just by looking through the replays without building for it. It is a fast paced metagame and its true that it's impossible to dig yourself out of a losing set, but as it is a Bo7, you can tech yourself out and take a match. In my first week's game for example, my opponent changed Aurumoth's item, allowing it to beat my Fidgit by acting as a lure and evening out the scores somewhat. I respect your opinions about the format and the roster for CAPTT but just thought I'd speak to that specific point.

 

[Felucia]

I didn't want to get involved because someone got really mad at me last time I did, but I think there's an important point that a lot of those arguing for and against CAP 1v1 are missing, that I think is a very important reason why it at the moment isn't suited for CAPTT.

It's true CAP 1v1 has an established playerbase (even if it's small) and it's a got a banlist and resources. But all those are currently embedded in to 1v1, and not CAP, and you gotta understand we're CAP TT with the CAP community in the CAP subforum. I'm not trying to systematically exclude 1v1 from anything (hell I love 1v1, sort of own the room for a reason), but as it stands now I think the drafts for CAP 1v1 will end up being 1v1 players, who oftentimes have little interest or ability in 6v6 battling, and who will deal with people on their team who generally will have little to no inherent interest or ability in 1v1. You can look at past team tours where 1v1 was included (back when OMs still added 1v1 to their tours), or to past 1v1 tours where other metas were included (notably 2v2), and see that having the fundamentally different 1v1 metagame among another metagame will just cause there to be 8 teams that have one solo player who does their games every week.

I know this is a generalization of 1v1 players not wanting to help out with CAP teambuilding, and CAP players not wanting to help out with 1v1 teambuilding, but history shows that this generalization is oftentimes reality. CAPTT is supposed to bring people together, and I believe a meta that isn't CAP 1v1 will do a better job at achieving this.

I want to stress this: I don't hate CAP 1v1, I enjoy playing CAP 1v1, and I think there's a place for CAP 1v1 in the CAP community. That place is just not... here yet. I don't get a say in this, but I would totally be on board with holding a CAP 1v1 smogtour somewhere within the bounds of CAP to help teach the community about the metagame and help embed it in our culture a little more. But as of now CAP 1v1 is an outlier, even more so than CAP NFE or CAP LC (due to those both being present in past gens, as well as being intuitive 6v6 metagames that don't require a fundamentally different building style)

 

[Jho]

Hey there - we plan to start up Player Signups tonight so we are going to be closing this. After much discussion between the managers and host, we have decided to use the following format for this CAPPL. Oh yeah, we are also name changing to CAPPL!

1 Bo3 SS CAP / 3 SS CAP / 2 SM CAP

Alongside this we also plan to run a CAP 1v1 forum tournament to make up for it not being in CAPPL which we are currently working out the details of. Thank you everyone for your input, player signups will be up shortly!