CC and Pokemon Showdown

What should PS's CC be like?

  • "Pure CC" - exactly like PO, purely random

    Votes: 54 41.5%
  • "Improved CC" - random, but with useless things removed (e.g. Spit Up without Stockpile)

    Votes: 76 58.5%

  • Total voters
    130
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#26
When I go to play a random battle, I want it completely random, not just slightly so. I've never played PS randbats but I've come to love CC along with a decent amount of PO users so if possible I think both should be implemented (why not?)
 

Antar

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#27
I just have serious doubts that we can keep both a Randbats and a CC ladder populated at anything but peak time.

It always takes me FOREVER to find 1v1 CC battles on Smogon (or even PO, if I'm desperate enough). And CC battles are about as rare as Uber battles.

And I don't really take too much stock in the fact that Randbats is the most popular PS metagame--it's the default, and it's what EVERYONE who's testing PS for the first time is going to use.

I really think we need to choose one and make our peace with it.

And since we have this:

PS's randbat is not going to be removed. This poll is about what kind of CC we should add alongside randbat.
I think it's time to say our goodbyes to CC.
 

Zarel

Not a Yuyuko fan
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
#28
It's interesting; the poll shows more support for Improved CC, but the thread wants True CC.

I'll do this for now:

Searchable:
- Unrated Random Battle
- Random Battle (rated)
- 1v1 CC (rated)
- CC (rated)
- 1v1 Improved CC (rated)
- Improved CC (rated)

Challengeable:
- Random Battle
- 1v1 Random Battle
- CC
- 1v1 CC
- Improved CC
- 1v1 Improved CC

And then I'll remove one of [1v1] CC or [1v1] Improved CC from searchable depending on which one has less usage.
 

Antar

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#29
I personally voted for "Improved CC" because I thought you meant "Randbats."

But I think most people are voting for it because they like the idea of redefining what an "attacking move" is (something that I have done in CC4Wifi).
 
#30
After playing, I hate the PS Randbats. While "Randbats" would be the default or more common on PS, I'm just wondering why not have both? I highly doubt it would strain the server, and it would probably be a welcome sight to our players outside of auth who are newcomers to PS. If it's not broken, don't fix it. (Just relocate it)
 

Ray Jay

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#31
Personally, I prefer the pure one at least for my tastes, I just don't see the point in making CC more competitive, soon people are gonna be asking for a subforum or something
 

Zarel

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Creator of PS
#32
After playing, I hate the PS Randbats. While "Randbats" would be the default or more common on PS, I'm just wondering why not have both? I highly doubt it would strain the server, and it would probably be a welcome sight to our players outside of auth who are newcomers to PS. If it's not broken, don't fix it. (Just relocate it)
I seriously think a lot of people here aren't reading the thread. -_-

PS randbat will stay; we're discussing whether to add Improved CC or real CC in addition, and we've already decided to test both and see which gets more usage.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
#33
Realistically, the "one attack guaranteed" rule of PO CC isn't very significant in practice; generally, you wouldn't get more than one Pokemon per team without attacks, and further, the "attack" designation doesn't necessarily mean you'll get something good. I'd much rather have something with Toxic and three worthless moves than something with Scratch and three worthless moves.
 

Antar

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#34
I seriously think a lot of people here aren't reading the thread. -_-

PS randbat will stay; we're discussing whether to add Improved CC or real CC in addition, and we've already decided to test both and see which gets more usage.
In that case, let's discuss what "improvements" we would be making to CC.

What did you have in mind, aesoft?

The way I see it, there's only a few things we can actually improve on without turning CC into randbats:

  • Changing the list of what counts as an "attacking" move. See here for what I use for CC4Wifi. Note that I include single-use moves (Fake Out) and passive-damage moves (Toxic, Hail, Sandstorm). Also inconsistent moves like Metronone and Present.
  • Looking at move combos. Randbats has some examples: no sleep talk without rest, only one setup move per set (no doubleDancing?)
  • Limiting the list of viable items. For reference, here's CC4Wifi's list. Note that the mails are included. Mail actually turns out to have its uses--namely, preventing Trick.

Anything I'm missing?
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
#35
From the list of "damaging moves" I would remove status moves, weather, and things like Counter and Mirror Coat. Currently, PO counts Counter / Mirror Coat as attacking moves, and it is extremely horrible when those are a Pokemon's only damaging moves. And certainly, it would be awful to find that your Pokemon's only "attack" is Hail...
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
#36
It's interesting; the poll shows more support for Improved CC, but the thread wants True CC.
Yeah that would be what is called Voluntary Bias. It's what makes radio stations able to claim things like "90% of americans believe in aliens." It takes time to post an argument in the thread, at least a lot more time than to answer the poll. If you post, it means you really care and are pulling for your choice to win. Who's more likely to do this? People who are in the minority, for obvious reasons.

That said, I absolutely support improved CC over pure CC. Oftentimes Pure CC is absolutely silly in which moves it considers "attacking" (also things like getting a Black Sludge non-poison type)
 

Zarel

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is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
#37
In that case, let's discuss what "improvements" we would be making to CC.

What did you have in mind, aesoft?

The way I see it, there's only a few things we can actually improve on without turning CC into randbats:

  • Changing the list of what counts as an "attacking" move. See here for what I use for CC4Wifi. Note that I include single-use moves (Fake Out) and passive-damage moves (Toxic, Hail, Sandstorm). Also inconsistent moves like Metronone and Present.
  • Looking at move combos. Randbats has some examples: no sleep talk without rest, only one setup move per set (no doubleDancing?)
  • Limiting the list of viable items. For reference, here's CC4Wifi's list. Note that the mails are included. Mail actually turns out to have its uses--namely, preventing Trick.

Anything I'm missing?
As You Know (tm), this is how random battle works in PS:

1. randomly pick 4 moves from the list of viable moves
2. go through the 4 moves, rejecting any determined to be suboptimal (Sleep Talk without Rest)
3. if a move was rejected, add another random move and goto step 2
4. pick the best ability that fits the moves (e.g. Compoundeyes won't be picked without inaccurate moves)
5. pick the best item that fits the moves (e.g. Choice Band won't be generated if Fake Out is in the set)
6. flat 31 IVs, flat 85 EVs, neutral nature
7. level balance by tier

Improved CC will be changed thusly (changes underlined):

1. randomly pick 4 moves from the list of available moves
2. go through the 4 moves, rejecting any determined to be useless (these include completely outclassed moves)
3. if a move was rejected, add another random move and goto step 2
4. pick a random non-useless ability (or a random ability, if all abilities are useless)
5. pick a random non-useless item (Blackglasses will only be picked if you have a dark move, etc)
6. random IVs, random EVs, random nature
7. level balance by stat total
 

Antar

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#38
2. go through the 4 moves, rejecting any determined to be useless (these include completely outclassed moves)
This is a big no-no in my opinion.

Part of the "fun" of Challenge Cup is having to rely on underpowered moves like Ember, Water Gun, and--of course--tackle.

Challenge Cup without tackle kills is no challnege cup.

Also, useless items are par for the course. Where else can you use Air Balloon Rotom-Fan?
 

Zarel

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is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
#39
This is a big no-no in my opinion.

Part of the "fun" of Challenge Cup is having to rely on underpowered moves like Ember, Water Gun, and--of course--tackle.

Challenge Cup without tackle kills is no challnege cup.

Also, useless items are par for the course. Where else can you use Air Balloon Rotom-Fan?
Tackle will only be removed if the set contains Return or something - is this really a big deal?
 

Pocket

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#41
Tackle will only be removed if the set contains Return or something - is this really a big deal?
Yea, that makes sense - nobody would use Tackle if the Pokemon already has Body Slam, for instance. In the same vein, Water Gun and Ember would be unused in a same moveset with Scald and Lava Plume, respectively.
 

Hipmonlee

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#42
So would ember be removed if you have overheat? or would the burn chance keep it viable. Also you might run out of PP..

I kinda worry how non useless moves might affect a pokemon with a small movepool. Something like Pidgeot which learns hardly any non stab moves might find that it almost always ends up with dual STAB.

Also stat total is a little bit silly, hp is twice as valuable as either defence stat. Also bear in mind a higher level means higher damage per turn, so, just using stat total means unevolved pokes are much stronger than pokemon with very high base stats (ubers often counteract this with great traits and movepools).

Maybe you could limit it to one attacking move and one non useless move, and the other two are completely random. It is a useful learning for trivia aid exactly what pokemon learn splash.
 

v

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#43
I would prefer that fully random classical CC is implemented into PS!,
I agree, and also I think always getting an attacking move and level balance are kinda lame. CC/Randbat/whatever you wanna call it is always gonna be chance-based, and I think mitigating that is silly since I like them best as truly random.
 

Zarel

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is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
#44
So would ember be removed if you have overheat? or would the burn chance keep it viable. Also you might run out of PP..

I kinda worry how non useless moves might affect a pokemon with a small movepool. Something like Pidgeot which learns hardly any non stab moves might find that it almost always ends up with dual STAB.
By "useless" I don't mean "unviable", I mean "useless", like Spit Up without Stockpile. The only moves I can see Pidgeot skipping are like Gust if it has Hidden Power Flying, or Wing Attack if it has Aerial Ace...
 

Engineer Pikachu

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#45
From the list of "damaging moves" I would remove status moves, weather, and things like Counter and Mirror Coat. Currently, PO counts Counter / Mirror Coat as attacking moves, and it is extremely horrible when those are a Pokemon's only damaging moves.
Just pointing out that while I completely agree with this, Wobbuffet and Wynaut would need to be dealt with.

As for replacing moves that are "outclassed" on a Pokemon's set, I personally don't find it to be that useful, I guess. One of my favorite things about PO CC is that you can use Tackle, bring them down from 100% to roughly 70% HP, and then Giga Impact the next round for a surprise kill, heh. Replacing the more useless moves would take away from the randomness that is CC. As an aside, I'm not sure how much work would go into this, but it doesn't seem like it would have a lot of effect. Moves that would undeniably be outclassed don't seem too likely to me, considering that they would have to be outclassed in terms of BAP, accuracy, and whatever secondary effect they had.
 

Eos

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#46
I find CC hilariously fun to play. However, I would like to have an improved version of it, as it can be quite ridiculous at certain times haha

edit: I think aeo is right with the "body slam and tackle thing." yea mainly agreeing with his views on this... although I don't think it should get too outta hand. like what ray jay stated.
 

blarajan

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#48
No fuck no outclassed moves. A ton of the fun of CC is having a moveset of Tackle / Scratch / Body Slam / Strength. It's just amusing, which is all CC is supposed to be--amusing. Plus as was stated before, there is some strategy behind it. Spam tackle / tackle and then trick them with a Return or something. Regardless though, we don't need to fuck with CC. CC is meant to be funny, silly, and plain ol' dumb sometimes. That's what it is. Leave it how PO currently does it (one attacking move, and it CAN be Snore or something).

We don't need to make a competitive game out of an inherently uncompetitive metagame. Just leave it ridiculous.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
#49
Engineer Pikachu and blarajan capture my sentiments best regarding move selection. Having to work with suboptimal movesets is one of the draws of CC, and part of what makes it uniquely interesting and fun. It just wouldn't feel right to not be able to sweep a team with DoubleSlap or Round.
 

Birkal

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#50
Is CAP occurring in random battles supposed to or always going to happen?
Traditionally, CAPs have appeared in randbats since their implementation to Pokemon Showdown!. They were pretty powerful upon release, so aeo nerfed them down to Lvl 74. He also turned down their frequency (I think) since they use to show up a lot.

Personally, I'd really like to see CAPs show up randomly in PS! randbats. One of the main draws to randbats is getting a Pokemon set that is like, "what is this thing" and working with it for a win. CAPs take that feeling one step further: they add an extra element of "random" to the metagame. They're both traditional and they add some spark, so I hope they stick around!

In terms of CC, I think CAPs would make that more fun as well. However, there isn't that traditional standing between CC and CAP. Rather, I see CC as something that was more traditional to PO, so I can see the argument for excluding CAPs from that metagame. It's a toss up, in my opinion.

Edit: CAP in randbats reminds me of this:

 
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