stopped playing after dodonzo got banned and then couldn't fight back the tauros fighting
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Metagame Convergence [OMOTM (New Bans post #361)]
- Thread starter G-Luke
- Start date
Well, it looks like your cries have been heard and prayers have been answered because....
Palafin, Rage Fist, Extreme Speed, Transform and Chi Yu are banned from Convergence!
| G-Luke | Tapler | KaenSoul | kennukem | Giagantic | |
| Palafin | Ban | Abstain | Ban | Ban | Ban |
| Rage Fist | Ban | Abstain | Ban | Ban | Ban |
| Extreme Speed | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban |
| Transform | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban |
| Chi Yu | Ban | Ban | Ban | Abstain | Ban |
| Iron Hands | Ban | Do Not Ban | Do Not Ban | Abstain | Ban |
| Chien Pao | Do Not Ban | Do Not Ban | Do Not Ban | Abstain | Do Not Ban |
| Population Bomb | Do Not Ban | Do Not Ban | Do Not Ban | Do Not Ban | Do Not Ban |
| Garganacl | Do Not Ban | Ban | Do Not Ban | Do Not Ban | Do Not Ban |
Palafin has proven itself once again to be one of the most dangerous offensive sweepers and wallbreakers in Convergence. With the departure of Dondozo, defensive counterplay for the fish has proven to be nonexistent, and even then Taunt Bulk Up sets were able to use it as set up bait. Now, there is no way to reliably check it. In Convergence, Palafin has also gained Recover and Swords Dance, giving it's offensive sets even more ways to challenge the metagame. Players were forced to try and stack multiple Water resists for Palafin, which crumbled if Rain was up, and absolutely fumbled once Bulk Up and Swords Dance popped into the conversation. Ultimately, this was deemed too strong and led to Palafin's ban.
Rage Fist has propelled it's users to the forefront of our metagame, making each of the prominent abusers some of the most dangerous offensive Pokémon, each in multiple different ways. The most popular abuser is Tauros-Paldea, who employs No Retreat + Rage Fist to snowball and clean up games, or even outright winning in its own once it gets a chance to set up safely. Variants from Defiant to Prankster to Iron Fist showed up, but ultimately Guts proved to be it's defacto ability choice in order to stop Will O Wisps from ending it's sweep. It often ran Flame Orb to avoid Toxic or Paralysis crippling it's sweep, bolstering it's power. Regen + Intim cores and the return of Purifying Salts Garganacl to try and counteract it. Unfortunately sets featuring Bulk Up in addition to No Retreat and Lefties began surfacing, essentially forcing Regen cores to actually hit it since it could no longer be worn down by Flame Orb. But all of this, you may ask why not ban Tauros? Well unfortunately Tauros may be the most popular, but is certainly not the sole problematic abuser of Rage Fist. Passimian pulls off the exact same set well, trading a decent speed tier for more hulk and power (pairs particularly nice on Webs or Hazard stack), Hariyama has started running Prankster Copycat to spam priority boosted Rage Fists, and lastly but certainly not least, Annihilape himself, the OG abuser, lurks in the shadows to wreck havoc on sets that try and over prepare for Tauros and Ilk just like it does in OU. In the end, Rage Fist, and not a singular abuser was singled out as the underlying issue at hand and was thus banned.
Extreme Speed is a popular form of speed control in multiple metagame's and is the reason for Dragonite's high success in OU. It is even much better here, as Dragonite has become an even stronger threat with access to STAB Brave Bird, or if one opts, can skip to Salamence who trades bulk for a big speed boost and sweep teams with efficiency after a Tera, especially if they run Moxie as their ability choice to snowball hard. Haxorus has also proven itself to be a disgusting breaker thanks to having the highest Attack stat of any ESpeed user and Mold Breaker to bypass common stopgaps like Unware, turning it into an Arceus level threat after 1 turn of set up. But the Dragon types are not the only Extreme Speed users, in fact, perhaps the most powerful users of the move are the pure Fire types. Cinderace grants Libero, making every pure Fire type STAB on Extreme Speed from the get go, and paired with either Swords Dance or Belly Drum, set up moves that still let them keep STAB on Extreme Speed, they can go ham. And this doesn't mention Terastilization, which stacks with Protean making them pure normal prior to use, stacking multipliers on multiples, often leaving offensive teams with next to no recourse outside of fast Ghost types, which are susceptible to coverage moves. As long as Extreme Speed is in the tier, offense will be put in an incredible stranglehold which leads to horrible stagnation with the multiple different varieties who each require separate counterplay, left us no other choice but to ban the move.
Transform is uncompetitive. It forces bizzare interactions and forces players with a strong set up sweeper, especially a specially based one, to be forced to design their Pokémon to be able to always be able to defeat that set in addition to multiple other threats. In a metagame which lacks the massive toolbox that Balanced Hackmons has, this strain on team building was deemed uncompetitive to face, and thus will be banned from Convergence.
Chi-Yu needs no explanation. Chi Yu was initially let into our metagame because of multiple options which were able to at the very least check it, or hinder it's progress making ability. Unfortunately, one by one these tools started disappearing. Rain, Iron Bundle, Dondozo, Speed Boost, all options that overshadowed or outright checked Chi Yu began to be banned, and what was left was a metagame where Sun is one of the most powerful playstyles in the tier thanks to all the new and versatile setters and abusers, defensive counterplay that boiled down to AV Garganacl, Well Baked Body Fairy types and Thick Fat Blissey. Even with these extremely limited options of defensively answering Chi Yu, Chi Yu somehow gained options to bypass them, with Solar Beam being a legit option on sun builds to blow past AV Garg, Sludge Bomb being able to cleave any Fairy that tries to switch in and Thick Fat Blissey/Chansey simply being an unoptimal way of running the Pokémon, as it would much rather run abilities like Aroma Veil, Intimidate and Natural Cure. At the end of the day, Chi-Yu still did what Chi-Yu always done, and forced the meta in an uncomfortable position with it's very lacking answers. It was thus deemed banworthy.
Thanks for reading this in detail reasoning for these bat h of quickbans for Convergence. If you desire to hear another council member's thought process on their ban reasonings, feel free to ask for them. These will most likely be our last quickbans for the remainder of our tenure as OMotM unless something extreme happens during our metagame's lifespan or development. For now, will be indicating to Kris to implement these bans ASAP please. Thanks for tuning in!
LMAO i thought you were going to present a couple set that stopped/checked Tauros XD
Anyway, amazing bans. I am a bit sad as an Espeed user (on the OG Dragonite) but it's the correct choice.
Cincerace was a really fun threat (never ran it, but I enjoyed it nonetheless, after the first few times where I was unprepared XD)
Has anyone have had a bit of success with Stakeout users? Mainly normal types, since we only have two Dark users and they're not the best, sadly.
Zangoose @ Choice Band
Ability: Stakeout
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Quick Attack
- Population Bomb // Double Edge (thanks Blissey) // Body Slam // Facade
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
I use this set but 1) Pbomb is unreliable, I kind of hate it and 2) No one ever switches, dammit. Still, it's strong, at least in low ladder.
EDIT: I added the names of the Normal moves that we can use. Damn GF that removed Return/Frustration :(
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Time to make a new team all my teams have one of those things LMAOWell, it looks like your cries have been heard and prayers have been answered because....
�
Palafin, Rage Fist, Extreme Speed, Transform and Chi Yu are banned from Convergence!
G-Luke Tapler KaenSoul kennukem Giagantic Palafin Ban Abstain Ban Ban Ban Rage Fist Ban Abstain Ban Ban Ban Extreme Speed Ban Ban Ban Ban Ban Transform Ban Ban Ban Ban Ban Chi Yu Ban Ban Ban Abstain Ban Iron Hands Ban Do Not Ban Do Not Ban Abstain Ban Chien Pao Do Not Ban Do Not Ban Do Not Ban Abstain Do Not Ban Population Bomb Do Not Ban Do Not Ban Do Not Ban Do Not Ban Do Not Ban Garganacl Do Not Ban Ban Do Not Ban Do Not Ban Do Not Ban
Palafin has proven itself once again to be one of the most dangerous offensive sweepers and wallbreakers in Convergence. With the departure of Dondozo, defensive counterplay for the fish has proven to be nonexistent, and even then Taunt Bulk Up sets were able to use it as set up bait. Now, there is no way to reliably check it. In Convergence, Palafin has also gained Recover and Swords Dance, giving it's offensive sets even more ways to challenge the metagame. Players were forced to try and stack multiple Water resists for Palafin, which crumbled if Rain was up, and absolutely fumbled once Bulk Up and Swords Dance popped into the conversation. Ultimately, this was deemed too strong and led to Palafin's ban.
Rage Fist has propelled it's users to the forefront of our metagame, making each of the prominent abusers some of the most dangerous offensive Pokémon, each in multiple different ways. The most popular abuser is Tauros-Paldea, who employs No Retreat + Rage Fist to snowball and clean up games, or even outright winning in its own once it gets a chance to set up safely. Variants from Defiant to Prankster to Iron Fist showed up, but ultimately Guts proved to be it's defacto ability choice in order to stop Will O Wisps from ending it's sweep. It often ran Flame Orb to avoid Toxic or Paralysis crippling it's sweep, bolstering it's power. Regen + Intim cores and the return of Purifying Salts Garganacl to try and counteract it. Unfortunately sets featuring Bulk Up in addition to No Retreat and Lefties began surfacing, essentially forcing Regen cores to actually hit it since it could no longer be worn down by Flame Orb. But all of this, you may ask why not ban Tauros? Well unfortunately Tauros may be the most popular, but is certainly not the sole problematic abuser of Rage Fist. Passimian pulls off the exact same set well, trading a decent speed tier for more hulk and power (pairs particularly nice on Webs or Hazard stack), Hariyama has started running Prankster Copycat to spam priority boosted Rage Fists, and lastly but certainly not least, Annihilape himself, the OG abuser, lurks in the shadows to wreck havoc on sets that try and over prepare for Tauros and Ilk just like it does in OU. In the end, Rage Fist, and not a singular abuser was singled out as the underlying issue at hand and was thus banned.
Extreme Speed is a popular form of speed control in multiple metagame's and is the reason for Dragonite's high success in OU. It is even much better here, as Dragonite has become an even stronger threat with access to STAB Brave Bird, or if one opts, can skip to Salamence who trades bulk for a big speed boost and sweep teams with efficiency after a Tera, especially if they run Moxie as their ability choice to snowball hard. Haxorus has also proven itself to be a disgusting breaker thanks to having the highest Attack stat of any ESpeed user and Mold Breaker to bypass common stopgaps like Unware, turning it into an Arceus level threat after 1 turn of set up. But the Dragon types are not the only Extreme Speed users, in fact, perhaps the most powerful users of the move are the pure Fire types. Cinderace grants Libero, making every pure Fire type STAB on Extreme Speed from the get go, and paired with either Swords Dance or Belly Drum, set up moves that still let them keep STAB on Extreme Speed, they can go ham. And this doesn't mention Terastilization, which stacks with Protean making them pure normal prior to use, stacking multipliers on multiples, often leaving offensive teams with next to no recourse outside of fast Ghost types, which are susceptible to coverage moves. As long as Extreme Speed is in the tier, offense will be put in an incredible stranglehold which leads to horrible stagnation with the multiple different varieties who each require separate counterplay, left us no other choice but to ban the move.
Transform is uncompetitive. It forces bizzare interactions and forces players with a strong set up sweeper, especially a specially based one, to be forced to design their Pokémon to be able to always be able to defeat that set in addition to multiple other threats. In a metagame which lacks the massive toolbox that Balanced Hackmons has, this strain on team building was deemed uncompetitive to face, and thus will be banned from Convergence.
Chi-Yu needs no explanation. Chi Yu was initially let into our metagame because of multiple options which were able to at the very least check it, or hinder it's progress making ability. Unfortunately, one by one these tools started disappearing. Rain, Iron Bundle, Dondozo, Speed Boost, all options that overshadowed or outright checked Chi Yu began to be banned, and what was left was a metagame where Sun is one of the most powerful playstyles in the tier thanks to all the new and versatile setters and abusers, defensive counterplay that boiled down to AV Garganacl, Well Baked Body Fairy types and Thick Fat Blissey. Even with these extremely limited options of defensively answering Chi Yu, Chi Yu somehow gained options to bypass them, with Solar Beam being a legit option on sun builds to blow past AV Garg, Sludge Bomb being able to cleave any Fairy that tries to switch in and Thick Fat Blissey/Chansey simply being an unoptimal way of running the Pokémon, as it would much rather run abilities like Aroma Veil, Intimidate and Natural Cure. At the end of the day, Chi-Yu still did what Chi-Yu always done, and forced the meta in an uncomfortable position with it's very lacking answers. It was thus deemed banworthy.
Thanks for reading this in detail reasoning for these bat h of quickbans for Convergence. If you desire to hear another council member's thought process on their ban reasonings, feel free to ask for them. These will most likely be our last quickbans for the remainder of our tenure as OMotM unless something extreme happens during our metagame's lifespan or development. For now, will be indicating to Kris to implement these bans ASAP please. Thanks for tuning in!
this is an incredibly interesting meta! thats why instead of finishing my Book of Enigmas sub (check Pet Mods out ;D) I've stayed up all night theorymonnin' w my bf, and we've come up with all of this: (warning: long ass post)
Bombirdier @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: ? who care, maybe dark?
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Haze
- Sucker Punch / Brave Bird
- Parting Shot / Stealth Rock / Taunt
- Roost
This bird is the suboptimal user of this set, but it can use sucker punch more effectively than the superior option, even if thats the only advantage it has over it.Haze, Prankster
Iron Jugulis @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: lol lmao
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD \\ 248 HP / 132 Def / 128 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot / Haze
- Taunt / Dark Pulse / Hurricane / Earth Power
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
ah yes, the optimal user, with a much higher bulk, and the chance to not be almost entirely passive, this is an incredibly viable support that can either set hazards or disrupt, and even remove enemies occasionaly.Haze, Prankster
Parting Shot, Taunt, Stealth Rocks, etc.
Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet, but the Tera type should be Ghost or Steel, so you don't get absolutely destroyed by Belly Drum + Espeed.
EDIT: I guess Ghost specifically because the Belly Drum + Espeed mons are all Fire Types. I guess Rock is an option too.
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E speed got banned
Ah well, doesn't matter that much in that case.
EDIT: Actually, probably still go Tera Ghost for the setup Iron Hands/Tauros/Slither Wing
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Here's a little thing I discovered out of curiosity.
Scyther gets two tools that compliment it incredibly well, both from fellow Bug/Flying types.
1- Scyther gets access to Sticky Web via Masquerain
2- Scyther gets access to Fell Stinger via Vespiquen
Maybe I don't know much, but I just feel like sharing this for a pretty neat meta.
Scyther gets two tools that compliment it incredibly well, both from fellow Bug/Flying types.
1- Scyther gets access to Sticky Web via Masquerain
2- Scyther gets access to Fell Stinger via Vespiquen
Maybe I don't know much, but I just feel like sharing this for a pretty neat meta.
Yeah it’s the most viable sticky web setter IMO. Now that espeed is banned webs are actually better now so scyther could see more usage
Here's a team I cooked up with webs scyther, I really like it
Team paste:
Scyther gets taunt and spikes from vespiquen, so it is quite a good lead. Copperajah is a great pair for scythe since if they have a scream tail you can easily u-turn out into copperajah which can get a free shed tail into pretty much anything. Meowscarada could be protean but I'm trying out tablets of ruin on it to help it sweep better since it will keep two stabs and cc is strong without stab. Hippowdon on this team is so hilarious to me because it sweeps so often because no one knows what it's gonna do which gives it ample opportunity to get a couple coils and after that its pretty much game over if it's late game. Shed Skin from Sandaconda lets it shrug off any status and basically just laugh off any defensive mons. This team has really good synergy and I hope you guys enjoy it.
I'd be able to get better quality replays on the ladder if espeed ban was implemented but this one shows off the team pretty well I believe: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9convergence-1801909102-jkgb4patx27amgabwv3quuye75aagrvpw
P.S: You can use it as a sample team iyw
Team paste:
Scyther gets taunt and spikes from vespiquen, so it is quite a good lead. Copperajah is a great pair for scythe since if they have a scream tail you can easily u-turn out into copperajah which can get a free shed tail into pretty much anything. Meowscarada could be protean but I'm trying out tablets of ruin on it to help it sweep better since it will keep two stabs and cc is strong without stab. Hippowdon on this team is so hilarious to me because it sweeps so often because no one knows what it's gonna do which gives it ample opportunity to get a couple coils and after that its pretty much game over if it's late game. Shed Skin from Sandaconda lets it shrug off any status and basically just laugh off any defensive mons. This team has really good synergy and I hope you guys enjoy it.
I'd be able to get better quality replays on the ladder if espeed ban was implemented but this one shows off the team pretty well I believe: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9convergence-1801909102-jkgb4patx27amgabwv3quuye75aagrvpw
P.S: You can use it as a sample team iyw
Speed boost is banned and without it stored power users need a couple of boosts in order to setup and can get walled by dark types if they dont have coverage
I think shed tail is unhealthy for this meta...Copperajah is spammed on every other team I face and it takes such little skill to put your setup sweepers behind a guaranteed sub and click buttons. I cant speak for everyone else but the meta is way less fun for me ever since he's risen in usage
Good Morning players! I have decided to create a short survey in order to collect data in order to gauge the opinions of players on the current state of the metagame. This survey will help us decide on what needs to to be done to help improve our metagame, if anything needs to be done at all. The council has worked diligently to ensure the metagame has reached some form of playability, and thus gaining the opinions of our valued player base seemed like the next logical step.
Here is the link to the survey ››› https://forms.gle/hxFKNHooxfYbi3Yi9 ‹‹‹, please fill out and submit it, we will be publishing the results on Thursday night! Have fun!
Here is the link to the survey ››› https://forms.gle/hxFKNHooxfYbi3Yi9 ‹‹‹, please fill out and submit it, we will be publishing the results on Thursday night! Have fun!
Hey I came up with this goofy set for the bear.
Ursaring @ Eviolite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Posion
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Population Bomb
- Soft-Boiled
- Bite
Unfortunately I don't really have a bunch of time to try it out but it might catch some people off guard in late game? I know its slow and loses to toxic but it was just so funny i wanted to share it. Poison terra to resist fighting and be immune to toxic?
If anyone manages to win by shooting teddy bears at their opponents, shoot me a DM!
Ursaring @ Eviolite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Posion
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Population Bomb
- Soft-Boiled
- Bite
Unfortunately I don't really have a bunch of time to try it out but it might catch some people off guard in late game? I know its slow and loses to toxic but it was just so funny i wanted to share it. Poison terra to resist fighting and be immune to toxic?
If anyone manages to win by shooting teddy bears at their opponents, shoot me a DM!
yeah someone in top ladder was using it, it's good
The set I've seen uses Power Trip over Bite, since it has way higher damage after 2 coils (which you can grab by baiting out a resisted move with your Tera).
So, on another note, I just (barely) hit #10 on my alt (PICTest2) and I think we really need to look at Guts Slither Wing and Protean Vaporeon. They hit hard and have good enough coverage to make them hard to check. Especially when combined with Wish+Teleport Scream Tail to keep them healthy. Here's the team: https://pokepast.es/0e9e8fbc7a5731a1
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Yeah so for some reason Revavroom can't learn Gigaton Hammer in this metagame
Edit: A lot of moves from 9 and Legend of Arceus is not learnable
Edit: A lot of moves from 9 and Legend of Arceus is not learnable
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Only Fairy/Steel can learn Gigaton Hammer, you only get stuff from Pokémon with the exact same type combo.
Ohhhhh I get it now, thanks for the explanation!
Qwilfish’s not got an evolution
To elaborate further, Pokémon that do not have an evolution at all cannot benefit Eviolite, even if their regional variant do. This means Qwilfish cannot benefit Eviolite as it cannot evolve as of today, while Hisuian Qwilfish can as it can evolve into Overqwil.
Pokémon whose standard variant can evolve but such evolution not yet available can still benefit Eviolite, as is the case for Ursaring and Stantler.
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Click for the team
Now that the tournament is finished, GG again RoFnA
I've decided to share my team and my reasoning behind it
This thing used to be a skelidirge but after it losing against great tusk and Rage Fist over and over i came up with this set it lives most physical hits even without investment and then setups some bulk ups, can even sweep teams if they cant break past it. Tera fairy is to surprise the dark types swooping in for the kill.
Now if you've gone against me before you've definitly met the immortal teapot
I run this over houndstone because of its higher speed, better special bulk, higher attacking stat and calm mind so it can even go toe to toe against a few special attackers
Another menace brute bonnet with its high bulk is a much better sweeper than meowscarado imo
after a swords dance or even two(this thing is bulky enough) it proceeds to tear through slow mons and can sucker punch on faster ones it gets walled by unuware mons but what can you do.
Now i've seen bulk up sets and belly drum sets on this thing but honestly i prefer the versatility that 4 attacks has, it's strong enough 2HKO most mons when they're hit super effectively and letting it have ice punch means its not walled by clodsire
This used to be much better when extreme speed was around but even without it i love the access to mold breaker, being able to hit those unaware mons hard gives it extreme value, now that it doesnt get extreme speed anymore it has to run dragon dance to hit faster threats, but honestly still great mon.
Did you know?
Jokes aside this thing hits HARD. Point at a non bulky mon and watch it explode type deal. it does reaaly well against slower bulky teams after getting rid of the SpDef walls and can run over them if they don't play carefully. Finizen getting boomburst is such a big W after the palafin ban.